Question about JGHV, FF, JGV-USA and steady to WSF

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Giuseppe
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Question about JGHV, FF, JGV-USA and steady to WSF

Post by Giuseppe » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:10 pm

A couple of questions for those familiar with the German testing system:

First question: that you know of, do Germans force fetch their dogs most of the time when they get them ready to be tested in the JGHV system (HZP, VGP, etc.) in Germany? I know that the FF method started in Germany (or at least that is what I remember), but do they still do it now days?
(Disclaimer: I have nothing against FF. Indeed my current dog is going through FF right now. I also have nothing against those who do not FF. I am just curious about what method the German use now days)

Second question: from what I remember from when I lived in Europe, I have been seeing in videos, and from what I have heard, versatile dogs in Germany handle pointed game more in the "European way", meaning that they are allowed to move on birds (or furred game) and handle them the best they can (creep in once a point is established, relocate on their own if game moving/running, etc.), of course still without causing the pointed game to flush. Also, from what I am seeing and hearing, at the flush, to command steadiness, German handlers blow the sit whistle, or even the down whistle. Are the dogs running in the JGV-USA tests handled the same way as the ones in Germany or does the JGV-USA require more of the "American way" of pointed game handling (i.e. no moving once point is established, handler flushes game not the dog, dog is steady to WSF by standing/being "whoaed" not sitting)?
(Disclaimer: I am from Europe so naturally I am more used to the "European way". But I have lived and hunted in the US long enough that I have learned to appreciate the "American way" as well, which is actually the "way" I chose to use right with my current dog. I do not think one way is superior to the other)

If I remember right, there is no e-collar use allowed in Germany due to the country legislation, so I am wondering what their methods are right now to train steadiness, FF, etc.

Again just curious, nothing more. Any insight from anyone with knowledge about this is much appreciated.

Thanks
Giuseppe

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Sharon
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Re: Question about JGHV, FF, JGV-USA and steady to WSF

Post by Sharon » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:44 am

any ideas for the member Giuseppe?
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RyanDoolittle
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Re: Question about JGHV, FF, JGV-USA and steady to WSF

Post by RyanDoolittle » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:20 pm

I think the original poster is mistaken on how american dogs handle their birds. Yes, in throw down trials you will see the dogs trained to not move once point is established. This is because in most cases, pen birds do not move, they just hide in whatever bush they were stuffed into.

However if you go watch a wild bird hunter, a dog trained on wild birds, or a dog trialed on wild birds, you will see those dogs moving on their birds. It isnt until the handler begins a flushing attempt is the dog required to not move. At that point the birds are generally pinned and dont move much anyway.

I would say anyone running on throw down planted bird events, whether that be American, European, Japanese, Korean, or wherever you live, and whether you are testing or competing, to train your dog to not move once they have established point. I would also train them to have a good nose full and were sure there is a bird there before they stop.

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Re: Question about JGHV, FF, JGV-USA and steady to WSF

Post by weimdogman » Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:45 am

I asked a vdd judge about this "European " style.
He replied we score dogs higher who can relocate on their own and work as a team with their handler.

I find the trials a joke where the dog points a bird from some distance and the handler has to try and find the bird to flush. heck I could just go hunt the hedgerow by myself.

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Re: Question about JGHV, FF, JGV-USA and steady to WSF

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:11 pm

weimdogman wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:45 am
I asked a vdd judge about this "European " style.
He replied we score dogs higher who can relocate on their own and work as a team with their handler.

I find the trials a joke where the dog points a bird from some distance and the handler has to try and find the bird to flush. heck I could just go hunt the hedgerow by myself.
Because my dog standing still and watching the covey allows him to mark downed birds much easier than one in hot pursuit. Because my dog standing still when 2 rooster pheasants come up and go opposite directions means he can mark the one that goes down alot easier which means a greater chance of him retrieving game instead of me having to back him back from his chase and get into the area the bird went down. #1 I loose focus where the bird dropped because now I'm focused on the dog and #2 the dog has no idea where this bird went down. And the final most important reason, if he is standing still behind me while I flush it means there is no chance of him getting infront of my gun when I shoot.

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Re: Question about JGHV, FF, JGV-USA and steady to WSF

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:13 pm

Okay I have another seeing as we are talking about a multi purpose dog here. I am pass shooting waterfowl or field shooting. First group of whatever comes in, boom boom boom, birds go down and there is another group coming in. If that dog is holding still, I can keep him there waiting for the next pack of birds to drop in. Again allowing him for an easier mark of downed game and #2 keeping him behind the muzzle of my firearm.

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Re: Question about JGHV, FF, JGV-USA and steady to WSF

Post by weimdogman » Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:07 pm

Ryan did I say the dog is not steady to flush,or not steady to fall?

No I did not so what exactly is your point?

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Re: Question about JGHV, FF, JGV-USA and steady to WSF

Post by RyanDoolittle » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:24 pm

Your last comment sure does sound like you want that dog moving the hedgerow as you make a flushing attempt.....

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Re: Question about JGHV, FF, JGV-USA and steady to WSF

Post by weimdogman » Mon Nov 02, 2020 7:16 pm

I believe it is simple .... I want the dog to point the bird. Not where it was. Not in there somewhere. The dog and man work as a team.

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Re: Question about JGHV, FF, JGV-USA and steady to WSF

Post by RyanDoolittle » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:49 pm

Thays exactly what any dog does that has lot of wild bird experience. Doesnt matter I'd it's a hunting dog, trial dog or test dog. I have never seen a dog picked up for relocating before a flushing attempt.

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Re: Question about JGHV, FF, JGV-USA and steady to WSF

Post by Sharon » Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:54 pm

Not sure exactly what the gentlemen are referring to.
One thing that drives me crazy in American Field trials:

The dog is on point. Takes me a bit to get there. The birds flush on their own after maybe 5 minutes . Dog didn't flush them, but may have been pointing too closely initially. After the birds flush, the dog relocates, before I get there- you're done. Happened to me twice. Certainly would want a dog to do that when hunting.
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Re: Question about JGHV, FF, JGV-USA and steady to WSF

Post by shags » Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:14 pm

Sharon, they probably dinged your dog for blowing a stop to flush. I hate STFs at a distance...what a waste of time to have the dog stand there like a dummy, burning time when he could be moving on and finding birds.

I've had my dog picked up for self-relocating before I went in for the flush (running quail). To me, that's the judge calling my dog on point, not me calling point :x Who's the dumbarse, the judge or the dog? Whatever, I feel like sometimes ya get robbed and sometimes ya get a gift, and it usually evens out.

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Re: Question about JGHV, FF, JGV-USA and steady to WSF

Post by RyanDoolittle » Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:26 pm

Sharon wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:54 pm
Not sure exactly what the gentlemen are referring to.
One thing that drives me crazy in American Field trials:

The dog is on point. Takes me a bit to get there. The birds flush on their own after maybe 5 minutes . Dog didn't flush them, but may have been pointing too closely initially. After the birds flush, the dog relocates, before I get there- you're done. Happened to me twice. Certainly would want a dog to do that when hunting.
I have never seen a dog picked up like that. The judges I have watched all allow the dog to relocate until you begin your flushing attempt. Whether that is stepping off your horse or beginning to flush for your dog. If the dog moves and birds flush I have seen them picked up for that.

I'm not saying it has never happened, I just havent seen a dog faulted for self relocating on running birds before the handler arrives to make an attempt at flushing.

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Sharon
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Re: Question about JGHV, FF, JGV-USA and steady to WSF

Post by Sharon » Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:18 pm

Ah, but the birds weren't running. They were tight and after 5 +-minutes took off. Dog relocated. I assume the judges thought my dog took a step which flushed the birds. However, they were just as far away as I was so couldn't see anything really either. I trust my dog to have been right. :)
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Re: Question about JGHV, FF, JGV-USA and steady to WSF

Post by JONOV » Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:27 pm

RyanDoolittle wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:20 pm
I think the original poster is mistaken on how american dogs handle their birds. Yes, in throw down trials you will see the dogs trained to not move once point is established. This is because in most cases, pen birds do not move, they just hide in whatever bush they were stuffed into.

However if you go watch a wild bird hunter, a dog trained on wild birds, or a dog trialed on wild birds, you will see those dogs moving on their birds. It isnt until the handler begins a flushing attempt is the dog required to not move. At that point the birds are generally pinned and dont move much anyway.

I would say anyone running on throw down planted bird events, whether that be American, European, Japanese, Korean, or wherever you live, and whether you are testing or competing, to train your dog to not move once they have established point. I would also train them to have a good nose full and were sure there is a bird there before they stop.
Not really, at least in comparison to what one sees out of European FT's. I know in at least some Euro FT's the dogs are also expected to flush. I'm no expert by a longshot but from what I've gathered on FB, etc, a European dog would be judged to "creepy" to place in an American FT.

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