Wirehair Pointing Griffons?

[SatelliteBeach]

I currently have an 8-year old vizsla and a 6-year old llewellin setter. My vizsla started out like a fireball but in the last year or so has become a complete couch potato. I would have never thought he would be this lazy. He's still the most affectionate animal I've ever known so he's still my buddy. Our llewellin setter was like having a wild animal in our house as a puppy. I wasn't sure what we had gotten ourselves into. She doesn't really need to be in your lap all the time like the vizsla does. I'm amazed at how she listens. You can jog with her on a crowded city street and she stays right next to you. You tell her to sit and her butt drops immediately. She can jog 8 miles with you and immediately run the rest of the day in the field without even phasing her.

Anyway, with our vizsla getting up there in years, I have been kicking the idea of adding a wirehair pointing griffon to our family. I haven't really spent any time around them. I just think they look like really cool dogs. Can anyone give me a bit more information about what they are like?

[Featherfinder]

Just wondering why you wouldn't want another setter?
If you're thinking of something else, try a pointer. You won't be sorry if you know how to start a puppy, nice and early.
I've worked with 4 Griffons. Very malleable and very smart! Nice dogs for sure. I'd get one before I'd get a GWP or Drahthaar but then again, none of the above suit my personal preferred hunting species.
That begs the question. What do you predominantly hunt/where/when?

[averageguy]

Depends on what you want in your dog.

I am well informed on WPGs and it is not a breed I will ever own. I am serious about hunting and want way more out of my dogs, including some style is why.

I hunt with GWPs, like the one below.



The average GWP or DD is a FAR better dog in the field than the average WPG. Way more drive, intensity, style, and talent. Don't take a stranger on the internet's word on that, go see several in each breed work and you can verify that for yourself.

If you go down the road of a WPG it is critical you get into the right Kennel/Breeder as it is easier to land on a poor one than a good one assuming you plan to hunt the dog. I can help with that if you want to send me a PM.

[SatelliteBeach]

Mostly hunting quail in Central Florida. I guess I left off a few things. Our setter loves me and loves working but doesn't give a crap about my wife or our kids. In order to sell this idea to the family, I'm going to need something that is going to be in it for the rest of the family. Our setter doesn't get tired. I guess if I could have the personality of the vizsla with the energy level and obedience of our llewellin then that would be the perfect dog for our house. Our vizsla is a bit more stubborn and hard-headed, while the llewellin takes orders like a soldier. This also might be able to be attributed to the vizsla being a male and the llewellin being a female.

[averageguy]

WPG have coats that is a very poor choice of breed for hunting quail in Central Florida. They do not handle heat well at all.

Hearing that, I think you should get a well bred Vizsla as they lack nothing in the way of energy in the right lines and you already like their temperaments. Your current Vizsla lacking energy is an indication you did not tap into the good genetics of which there is plenty around to be had.

I can help you with that too if you like.

[birddogger2]

Sattelite Beach - \

Seeing that you are in Florida, I have a suggestion for you.

One of the more serious versatile breeders that I know retired to FL from PA. She had some serious dogs and would undoubtedly be a wealth of information on the breed. She bred Wires that could compete in AKC Gundog stakes, and they were NICE dogs. Her name is Bernee Braun.

Unfortunately I have lost touch with her, but I suspect that anyone down your way that is in to versatiles, especially wires, would know how to contact her. She was always very good to talk to. No BS, no sales pitch, straight from the shoulder type person. I liked her... a lot.

Good luck on your search.

RayG

[birddogger2]

Sattelite Beach - \

Seeing that you are in Florida, I have a suggestion for you.

One of the more serious versatile breeders that I know retired to FL from PA. She had some serious dogs and would undoubtedly be a wealth of information on the breed. She bred Wires that could compete in AKC Gundog stakes, and they were NICE dogs. Her name is Bernee Braun.

Unfortunately I have lost touch with her, but I suspect that anyone down your way that is in to versatiles, especially wires, would know how to contact her. She was always very good to talk to. No BS, no sales pitch, straight from the shoulder type person. I liked her... a lot.

Good luck on your search.

It is very true that heavily coated hunting dogs are not an ideal choice for hot, humid climates, but that assessment goes for ALL those breeds, including German Wires and Deutsch Draathars... not just wires. Since you already have a setter, you obviously know how to deal with it successfully. Air conditioning in hot climates makes lots of things possible. A pool ain't bad thing to have either.

RayG

PS -

Her name on this board is fuzznut.

I just did a search and came up with the following e-mail addy.

justagwp@gmail.com

Don't know if it still works.

You might also try the WPG parent club website and the AKC searchable judge's directory.

RayG

[Featherfinder]

Well...that settles it. You obviously should get a pointer! My female pointer LOVES my wife. She only loves me when we're hunting - I mean the dog!! My wife doesn't hunt.
And don't let anyone tell you they don't make good companions in the home. That's more a reflection of their upbringing.
Hey Ray...do those GWPs have a lot of white?
Have to agree with Averageguy. I wouldn't want a WPG, GWP or Drahthaar where you hunt and what you hunt. Hard to beat a good pointer especially in your neck of the woods hunting those little bittee quail!
Now, Averageguy, you go wash your mouth out - a Viszla!?!? Geeez….!!
Go for the luxury model. Get a pointer! Twice the dog for 1/2 the price!
I'll PM you where I got mine. Super gentleman!

[cjhills]

Unbelievable!!!!!!!
Do you and AG get a commission......Cj

[Featherfinder]

Dang...why didn't I think of that!?!?!

[Garrison]

I have spent a good deal of time hunting behind my uncle’s Griffons. Personally they are not my cup of tea, but don’t let anybody tell you they are a lesser hunting dog than breed X,Y or Z. On any forum you will normally get a bunch of people who will attempt to justify their own decision or preference and call it advice, just human nature I guess, because we are all guilty.

They may hunt in a different fashion but a dog from the right lines can be a fantastic bird dog. In cold weather wild pheasant hunting I have seen his dogs farm birds when other really good dogs were having a lot of trouble. They typically work at a closer range than what most in the pointing dog community prefer. I have seen his dogs catch scent run down, circle and block moving birds many times, while other dogs were stylishly relocating down to the end of a field. Where they really shine is in their tracking ability. They can pick up ground scent on a moving bird like no other, if you come across a track they will put their head to ground and follow it like a hound. You could bet your wallet that you will find something at the end of the track, even if they take you across the county. Not always feathers!

I don’t believe they are as proficient at covey birds because they use ground scent more than other breeds and don’t cover as much territory. They do a good job duck and goose hunting. They don’t handle the heat very well with their coats. Their attitude towards their family is like any breed, depends on their breeding. Some could careless about you, some are under your feet. My buddy has one that loves the wife and kids and only tolerates him so she can get in the truck. One thing is for sure, they can’t have a water bowl in the house with that beard.

All that said, if I was living in Florida and hunted quail, I think I would stick with a Pointer, Setter, Vizsla or GSP from stock that hunts in a fashion you prefer. Heat can be a real killer on dogs. Pointers have been the dog of choice for that pursuit for a very long time.

Garrison

[Sharon]

definitely NOT referring to Garrison - an excellent member:

heads up: This is another thread about preferred breeds ( and a very good question). Choice of breeds always has a tendency to go south fast. GIve your opinion for sure - even twice- but let it not turn into a back and force argument/nasty comments please. Thank you.

[birddogger2]

Sharon -
Thank you.

As most on this board know I have been walking behind, riding behind and occasionally chasing pointers all my life and will continue to. That is just me.

If I were in central Florida I would probably have a short haired breed that was light in color...but again... that is just me.

Like I said A/C is a beautiful thing. My dogs are all outside dogs and likely will always be, and again... my choice.

Oh and for what it is worth, I have had some pretty decent dogs, including one AKC FC and a couple that were close, but I have had my but kicked in field trials by WPG's and Vizslak. Weims, shorthairs. Irish Setters(FDSB registered stock) and of course English setters can be added to that list. I have seen some pretty fair dogs in competitions and not all of them were longtails. A good dog is a good dog.

I can't recall ever being braced with or in the same trial with a DD or GWP, so I don't know how my dogs would stack up against them, or vice versa.

Based on how they have done in competitions in general, I think my guys would do just fine in the bird finding and pointing departments, which is really all I care about. I actually discourage my dogs from working fur of any kind and since birds are not shot and retrieving is not required in American Field stakes, I try to have my competitive dogs stay steady through shot and fall, and then usually heel the dog off and release it to go find another bird.

Everyone to their own taste.

RayG

[Featherfinder]

I just want to say something in support of Sharon's post.
Last time I looked there was no breed with my name on it. I have personally owned 1 pointer TOTAL although I have been around them in trials for many years.
Here are breeds I have worked with:
Setter (English)
Setter (Gordon)
Setter (Red/Irish)
Pointer (English)
Pointer (Portuguese)
German short-haired pointer
German wire-haired pointer
Wire-haired pointing Griffon
Weimaraner
Vizsla
Wire-haired Vizsla
Duetsch Drahthaar
Munsterlander
Pudelpointer
Brittany
French Spaniel
Braque D'Auvergne
English springer spaniel
Welsh springer spaniel
Labrador retriever
English field spaniel
Nova Scotia Duck Toller
I may have left 1 or 2 out. So, if someone asks my opinion I tell them. In almost all of the above there have been exceptional dogs and complete duds.
Not only do we all have our own definition of a brag dog, we don't all hunt in the same climes at the same times for the same game species, the same way.
I had a gent recently ask me which pointing breed he should buy. He said he hunted geese and ducks on water and fields, and was going to get a membership at a local pheasant club. I suggested he get a Lab. That doesn't mean one of the versatiles wouldn't fit the bill. It just means that in my opinion which he asked for, the Lab would be the ideal dog. I didn't try to tell him he should get a pointer or setter because I have them.
I like to think that while we don't all agree, we all have our own reasons for what we like/dislike. And, we can respect those other opinions.
Now, I didn't start with setters/pointers many years ago. But from where I'm sitting today, I WISH I had. Sometimes, my goal is to shorten folks' learning curve.

[averageguy]

I call em like I see em. If I have no experience with a Breed I stay silent.

I brought up my own chosen breed in this thread solely because FF found some need to specifically post he would go the WPG route before going with a GWP. (Kinda odd given GWPs or DD were not mentioned in the OP ... )

I am knowledgeable with all 3 WPG, GWP and DD breeds, of the opposite opinion/experience, so I said so and why in plain terms.

I also invite people to get out and see the dog breeds being discussed and see for themselves vs relying on the posted opinions of strangers. Did that very thing in this thread.

And I commonly show my dogs working in Videos, as it is easier to type than to train and I do not want to be one of those guys ...

Ray G,

I distinctly recall you mentioning Bernee Brawn before when you relayed one of her GWPs cleaned your clock in a FT.

My current pup comes from a Sire with a couple of Broke Dog Trial wins and her maternal grandmother is a VC DC AFC MHA. Hopefully that translates to some nice search and style on birds. I sure hope so or I will be disappointed.

Most importantly she is from dogs which get it done in all ways, hunting all the wild birds the West has to offer a versatile hunter.

[Sharon]

Now let's get back to the OP's question.

"Anyway, with our vizsla getting up there in years, I have been kicking the idea of adding a wirehair pointing griffon to our family. I haven't really spent any time around them. I just think they look like really cool dogs. Can anyone give me a bit more information about what they are like?" quote

What are wpgs like?

[Featherfinder]

They are not as stubborn as some of the other German/European look-alikes can be. They can be directed into wonderful bird dogs without the more firm methods sometimes deployed on the other Germanic breeds. They typically can appear aloof but actually have a very nice calm disposition. They are typically smart, easy-to-train and enjoyed water-work as much as land. Their coats are not quite as bristly as other wire-hairs at least not the 4 that I worked with from 2 separate breeders at opposite ends of the country. They mature reasonably early. They make great family pets too but get them socialized young.
Close working however the one male I worked with had to be reined in to be more of a gun-dog for the owner. Unusual for this breed.
Generally decent bird dogs - a versatile.
Note: These are generalizations.

[averageguy]

WPGs far too often have very poor coats. Soft, long, open, a nightmare to pick up burrs. Breeders of WPG commonly acknowledge and discuss this known deficiency. They are often a slow and close working dog. Many are very lackluster in their pointing style. They are a very square built dog and their conformation is not conducive to a flowing gait.

Some are decent in the water, but few show the drive that several other breeds I see regularly do however. Most have friendly dispositions and the breed is very well noted for being good family dogs.

I know of a couple of Kennels/Breeders putting out some dogs better than the general case I described above. Hence why I posted getting to the right kennel is critical. Their dogs still do not have the drive, range and style on birds to suit me.

Given the OP complains about the drive of his Vizsla, particularly compared with his Setter, I view a WPG as a bad risk to end up with the same problem.

I do not think anyone knowledgable in the WPG breed would recommend them for hunting quail in Florida. They absolutely do not handle heat well.

[Sharon]

2 excellent posts! Hope that gives you some info you need SatelliteBeach
( Would love to be in Florida myself to day - still snowing here. :roll: )

[SatelliteBeach]

I appreciate everyone’s input. Based on what I have read, I think family is probably best off finding a vizsla who isn’t lazy or another setter who cares about more of the family. Both dogs we have now have qualities that make them the best dogs I’ve owned.

[Sharon]

I've had 2 setters. Both were great hunters, but very aloof in the home - kept to themselves. You've said you're setter was aloof too. I'd be interested in other people's experiences. Are setters generally aloof in the home? Certainly as puppies they are warm and friendly , so how can Satellite Beach find a good family friendly setter ?

[Garrison]

I appreciate everyone’s input. Based on what I have read, I think family is probably best off finding a vizsla who isn’t lazy or another setter who cares about more of the family. Both dogs we have now have qualities that make them the best dogs I’ve owned.

Either breed could easily fit the bill. But as you have already noted in the appraisal of your own two dogs, there can be as much variation within a breed as there is between two breeds. Be patient and do your homework. Don’t look for pups, look for dogs that you would like to own yourself, that will be bred in the future. If you take a family to look at pups it’s hard to say no when you are in the market. A really well started or finished dog can be an even better option because it takes the guesswork out of it.

Garrison

[shags]

Over the past 15 years or so I've had 7 setters. Five we acquired as puppies; two were adult rescues and one of those was elderly. None of them were not what I'd call aloof, but more chill and not in-your-face demanding attention. They all enjoyed affection from just about anybody but most had a favorite person who they liked to stayed near. Two of the setters were females and they preferred my DH; the boy dogs are "mine". Two of the males were pretty closely related, but they were the most different, affection/attention-wise.

I think a key to getting the dog bonded to everyone in the family is to have everyone share in its care. if one person is the source of all fun and all food, that's probably gonna be the dog's favorite

[Featherfinder]

My experience with my setters mirrors Shags. My setters were great with people/kids. Not at all aloof. Loved attention but didn't harass you for it. My Emma was exceptional and I can't take any credit for her demeanor/manors. She rarely barked. Went from my kennel into my son's home where she lived her senior life with 2 young children that she LOVED! She wouldn't touch any food that wasn't offered to her. She was VERY clean. She didn't do tricks per say, but was SO smart! They were watching a movie and Emma stood between them and the TV lifting her right paw then her left, right,left,right,left… She had just been let in from airing out so???? My son, followed her into the kitchen. Her water bowl was empty. He filled it and she drank. Then laid down in her bed. She had "the switch". Calm, quiet, gentle in the home yet she was THE best wild bird hunter I've owned to date. Emma's Mum was very nice too - not as nice as Emma but...
My son took it SO hard when she passed. He wasn't himself for a couple of months. He said to me, "No more dogs Dad."
I think time will heal the wounds.
If anything, my experience with setters in the home can be extra special. And yes, other breeds can be good in the home too.
I'd say you've come to the right decision for you/your home. Get that setter!

[Featherfinder]

Averageguy, I reread your post on WPGs and I believe you're right for the most part. The OP has made the best choice anyway, I think (setter).
Wishing him all the best going forward!

[SatelliteBeach]

The vizslas are completely different from any dogs I have ever owned. When I sit on the couch, mine needs to be on the back of the couch draped around my neck or laying next to me with his head in my lap. I'm pretty sure he loves me more than my parents and I have a great relationship with them, so compared to him, any dog might qualify as being aloof.

[birddogger2]

I have been around a half dozen or so different V's and the one thing they all seem to share is a very close relationship to their owner. For a couple of them it was almost a "velcro" thing.

A local lady had a V that was exceptional, IMO. He could have been a competitive horseback field trial dog. I actually offered to help get him there and was willing to run him in trials for her...but that was not her desire for the dog. He wound up earning a Senior Hunter title under his owner's whistle and she was content with that. Jakob was a nice dog, by anyone's measure, but there was no question that he was a one person dog nd he had an "attitude".

I assisted the owner in some of his training...especially the steadiness end of it, and I assumed the role of disciplinarian(bad guy)., as Jakob was a bit of a brickhead about wanting to do the bird thing HIS way. I was not harsh, but I was insistent and persistent and he eventually gave me what I was asking for. Ever after that, when we came together, he let me know he still held a grudge. Kinda funny actually... especially when a couple years later I took the lead and made him do what he was supposed to before a hunt test. The dirty looks he gave me almost cracked me up... but he did what he was supposed to do and when his owner ran him he performed beautifully for her. Made me smile.

Al Lucas has had some VERY competitive V's. They are very different breeding than the ones in my local Navhda chapter, but as noted above, they are pretty well bonded to their handlers.

Not my breed of choice, but... most of the ones I've seen are nice dogs.

RayG

[Garrison]

Ray,

Your comments reminded me of something you posted years ago about not always wanting a dog that was too intelligent.

A local trainer who helped me and friend with our dogs and let us use his horses in trials, almost exclusively ran V’s. His string of dogs were quite competitive in the local trials against mostly Brittany and GSP’s.

That string of dogs had more personality quirks than any I had ever been around.

The most capable dog in the string, a big really well put together specimen of a dog just didn’t want to finish the last leg of his FC, while others all around him did. He would put on a great show and find a way to break your heart and lose. I was at a trial and watched the breakaway and headed back to camp. He went straight to the front and over the horizon. When he knew he was out of sight and found a bird he couldn’t resist, he ripped it and took a wide loop back to the trailer. I’m sitting in a chair at camp and I watch him in a real cagey fashion looking over his shoulder all the way come and deposit the bird in his crate in the trailer and turn around and get back on the course. I believe he showed back up to the front at the turn and might of been in consideration.

They can be quite capable, they also know how to give you the middle paw and the stink eye for sure.

Garrison

[Featherfinder]

That is something Garrison!?!?! I appreciate that the pro works with what he gets but there's a dog you might want to send home.

[Steve007]

Sattelite Beach - \

Seeing that you are in Florida, I have a suggestion for you.

One of the more serious versatile breeders that I know retired to FL from PA. She had some serious dogs and would undoubtedly be a wealth of information on the breed. She bred Wires that could compete in AKC Gundog stakes, and they were NICE dogs. Her name is Bernee Braun.

Unfortunately I have lost touch with her, but I suspect that anyone down your way that is in to versatiles, especially wires, would know how to contact her. She was always very good to talk to. No BS, no sales pitch, straight from the shoulder type person. I liked her... a lot.

PS -

Her name on this board is fuzznut.

I just did a search and came up with the following e-mail addy.

justagwp@gmail.com

Don't know if it still works.
RayG

It works. I own two dogs I got from Bernée, including the one you were so impressed with at the trial. (Got her after you saw her.) She had 17 wins or placements in horseback trials, yet would adjust instantly when I was hunting on foot with a shotgun. My hunting partner would tell you she was a close working dog. She was.. unless we entered a FT or HT, or if I asked her to cover some ground.

A top-flight wirehair --if you put a little time into grooming --handles heat very well, though not the way a Pointer does. But there's usually water around, and they will dive in. Not sure about alligators, though. And while I know Pointers can retrieve, it's a big thrill for a wirehair. Land or water.

[Garrison]

Sounds like one heck of a dog!