new pup contract question

Post Reply
User avatar
MNTonester
Rank: Champion
Posts: 335
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:51 pm
Location: Duluth, MN

new pup contract question

Post by MNTonester » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:35 am

Amazingly, my wife is floating the idea of getting another puppy once our old lab has crossed that bridge (I'm hoping he hangs in there for another two years but he is noticeably declining after 11+ years). We've always neutered our dogs but we left our poodle intact. Looking more closely at dog contracts, most specify that a pup either has to be neutered or you pay extra should you want to consider breeding the dog in the future. How can that be enforced once money is exchanged and the dog is in his new home? Why is there such a provision in the contract in the first place? I appreciate the explanation.
Last edited by MNTonester on Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

Pedro
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:11 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: new pup contact question

Post by Pedro » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:04 pm

I've never signed a contract to purchase a pointer or brittany, and over the past 30+ years I've bot some very well bred pups of both flavors.

User avatar
Dakotazeb
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 671
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:10 pm
Location: South Dakota / Arizona

Re: new pup contact question

Post by Dakotazeb » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:10 pm

The breeder can control breeding of the offspring by issuing a Limited Registration from the AKC.
Limited Registration

Limited Registration means that the dog is registered but no litters produced by that dog are eligible for registration.

Chapter 3, Section 4A of the AKC's Rules Applying to Registration and Discipline states the following: "Limited Registration may be requested for a dog when application for individual registration of the dog is submitted, provided the application, together with a request for such limitation, is filed by the owner(s) of the litter at birth.

No offspring of a dog for which Limited Registration has been granted is eligible for registration. Each registration certificate for such dog shall carry notice of the limitation, and the limitation shall continue, regardless of any change of ownership, unless and until the owner(s) of the litter at birth shall apply to AKC for removal of the limitation."

A dog registered with an AKC Limited Registration shall be ineligible to be entered in a breed competition in a licensed or member dog show. It is eligible, however, to be entered in any other licensed or member event. These events include: Obedience, Tracking, Field Trials, Hunting Tests, Herding, Lure Coursing, Agility and Earthdog.

Limited Registration is determined by the litter owner(s). The litter owner(s) check the Limited box on the AKC Dog Registration Application.

Limited Registration certificates are white with an orange border; the Full Registration certificate is white with a purple border.

Limited Registration can be changed to Full Registration only by the litter owner(s). The litter owner(s) will need to obtain the Application to Revoke Limited Status. That form will then need to be completed and sent to our Raleigh address with the processing fee. After processing, we will send a Full Registration certificate to the dog's owner.

Limited Registration helps breeders protect their breeding programs. If breeders do not want puppies used for breeding purposes, they can request the Limited Registration option for those puppies.

The American Kennel Club does not license or endorse anyone engaged in the commerce of selling purebred dogs and, therefore, has no control over the business practices of those involved in such transactions. Membership in the American Kennel Club is comprised of independent dog clubs located throughout the United States. No individual persons are members of the AKC.

The AKC will not become involved in disputes concerning 'full' or 'limited' registration of a dog. These disputes must be resolved by the parties involved in the sale of the dog. The only exception to this is in cases where there is a contract, signed by all parties involved and made at the time of the dog sale, that stipulates the registration status. In those cases, AKC will initiate an inquiry on the matter.

User avatar
MNTonester
Rank: Champion
Posts: 335
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:51 pm
Location: Duluth, MN

Re: new pup contact question

Post by MNTonester » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:58 pm

Dakota, thanks. This somewhat makes sense:
Limited Registration helps breeders protect their breeding programs
However, from my point of view, if a person bought a pup and trains and trials that dog into something great, it doesn't seem right to me that the dog couldn't be used for breeding purposes (or I should say, registered breeding purposes).

User avatar
crackerd
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 6:57 am

Re: new pup contact question

Post by crackerd » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:18 pm

MNTonester wrote:Amazingly, my wife is floating the idea of getting another puppy once our old lab has crossed that bridge (I'm hoping he hangs in there for another two years but he is noticeably declining after 11+ years). We've always neutered our dogs but we left our poodle intact. Looking more closely at dog contracts, most specify that a pup either has to be neutered or you pay extra should you want to consider breeding the dog in the future. How can that be enforced once money is exchanged and the dog is in his new home? Why is there such a provision in the contract in the first place? I appreciate the explanation.
Don't know about "most specify(ing)," but in retrievers such hogwash exists only in certain show and "British Lab"/Gentleman Gundog Crap precincts. Never seen - nor heard of - any such in field-bred, a/k/a performance Labs.

MG

User avatar
Dakotazeb
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 671
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:10 pm
Location: South Dakota / Arizona

Re: new pup contact question

Post by Dakotazeb » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:28 pm

MNTonester wrote:Dakota, thanks. This somewhat makes sense:
Limited Registration helps breeders protect their breeding programs
However, from my point of view, if a person bought a pup and trains and trials that dog into something great, it doesn't seem right to me that the dog couldn't be used for breeding purposes (or I should say, registered breeding purposes).
I would think that if your dog turned into something great the breeder would not have a problem changing the registration to a Full registration and allowing you to breed your dog. However, the breeder may want some say in whom you breed your dog to. If your dog becomes a field champion it only enhances the breeders program. Issuing a Limited Registration helps insure proper breeding. There are way too many "backyard breeders" out there. I've always felt that breeding is best left to the professionals that are truly in it to better the breed.

User avatar
DougB
Rank: Champion
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 5:31 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: new pup contact question

Post by DougB » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:38 pm

You don't have to sign the contract. There are other breeders who don't care. Or you can pay more for a full ownership contract.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: new pup contact question

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:09 pm

There is absolutely no way I would ever sign a contract for a pup. What they are really asking is for you to pay a purchase price and they will lease you a pup as long as you follow their desire. A contract has never improved the breed but rather makes the seller feel superior.

Ezzy

Timewise65
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 492
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:30 am
Location: Missouri

Re: new pup contact question

Post by Timewise65 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:16 pm

As noted above, it is all about the titling. If the litter you purchase from is AKC registered, most good breeders will only allow limited registrations on the pups, unless a professional breeder wants a pup and the breeder/owner of the litter would have to feel they have a female or male that would make a top breeding dog. Then they get more money on that dog when they sell it to another breeder. What they look for in the breeder is their history of dogs bred and who they bred the dogs with. Performance titles also have a big influence on breeding.

You can, as you say, call the breeder up and have them change the limited registration to a regular registration if they feel the dog you have is a good 'representative' dog for breeding. They usually determine this by a number of things including what titles your pup has earned, what titles and blood line is the dog you intend to breed your dog to, etc. etc. My current female earned her Senior Hunter SH and Working Dog Excellent WCX at a fairly young age. Our breeder was very pleased and offered to change her registration if we wanted to breed her. She is a very small, high spirited Golden Retriever. She has been my 'dream pup' so far, but she is so small that she falls below AKC minimum standard. I could still breed her, but I do not feel it is right to do that when she is so far away from the standard. Therefore, we had her spade. Many people probably would not agree with this, but my idea of a what a breeder should do is move the breed towards a dog that could be confirmed and be a Master National Champion of FC! Now that would be something.....

I do not believe you can force them to change the title. A good breeders primary motive is to "Improve the overall quality of the Breed"! As I understand it if you breed a dog with a limited registration you will not be able to register the pups with any of the registration agency in the USA.

Good Luck,

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: new pup contact question

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:55 pm

I have bought pups from many name breeders over the pas5t 50 years including titled dogs and have never been asked to sign a contract. Really not sure I had even heard of one till more recent years. My idea may be wrong but when I purchase something I feel like I own it and that puts me in charge of how it is used. I just don't like renting.......

Ezzy

polmaise
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2689
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:08 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: new pup contact question

Post by polmaise » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:27 pm

MNTonester wrote:Amazingly, my wife is floating the idea of getting another puppy once our old lab has crossed that bridge (I'm hoping he hangs in there for another two years but he is noticeably declining after 11+ years). We've always neutered our dogs but we left our poodle intact. Looking more closely at dog contracts, most specify that a pup either has to be neutered or you pay extra should you want to consider breeding the dog in the future. How can that be enforced once money is exchanged and the dog is in his new home? Why is there such a provision in the contract in the first place? I appreciate the explanation.
I can see how you would get confused with written contracts .
Best wait the two years or so...

art hubbard
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 259
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:57 pm
Location: idaho

Re: new pup contact question

Post by art hubbard » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:32 pm

Plus 1 to Ezzy

User avatar
mountaindogs
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:33 pm
Location: TN

Re: new pup contact question

Post by mountaindogs » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:53 pm

I no longer sell puppies without some sort of contract. My contracts are not strict and they offer as much protection for the buyer as anything else. They are geared entirely towards protecting the dog and the breed and if the person is not happy with a dog I would never force that dog dog to stay there. Thus the buyer is not stuck in any situation. I don't require limited registration but I do require some due diligence before breeding. I DO offer a discount for limited registration. Limited registration can be reversed if the dog and handler get all into hunting or trials or whatever and decide they want to breed in a responsible way. (I now this "responsible way" is somewhat up to interpretation but to me it's mature enough to be bred, health tested before breeding, bred to health tested dogs, of sound temperament and demonstrating hunting instincts and ability)

My contracts are also up for discussion. I am not so much trying to box people in, as to make sure they are forward thinking and planning for their dog. I offer a lot of myself with each puppy, including this lifelong commitment, a 5 year heritable illness guarantee, free puppy head start programs including boarding is desired, free workshops and basic field and bird work help. In return I ask buyers to look ahead and plan to either not breed or breed carefully, safely, and with thought.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: new pup contact question

Post by cjhills » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:35 pm

I pretty much agree with Mountain Dogs.
I do have a contract since we guarantee for life against common genetic problems. Our contract is more about what we will do for the buyer than what we expect the buyer to do for us. Also a few guidelines about shot and things of that nature. But, accept for breeding right, it is unenforceable.
But, I do feel like when you buy a pup it should be yours. I have bought puppies from Breeders who restrict breeding rights but have never had them restricted on the puppies I bought or never paid extra for breeding rights.
I do have a little problem with the term "good breeders". Most serious breeders are pretty good at breeding what they think is a good dog. If some disagree So be it. The average breeder only lasts four years.
I think most people who charge more for breeding rights are trying to make a little more money. I never pay it.
It seems if you train and promote the dog to the point where he is a suitable breeding dog you have already done enough for the kennel.
I do think a breeder should give the buyer some sort of recourse in the event he is sold a puppy with genetic issues. Most breeders say they will. Most don't .................Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
gonehuntin'
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4867
Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: NE WI.

Re: new pup contact question

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:15 am

ezzy333 wrote:I have bought pups from many name breeders over the pas5t 50 years including titled dogs and have never been asked to sign a contract. Really not sure I had even heard of one till more recent years. My idea may be wrong but when I purchase something I feel like I own it and that puts me in charge of how it is used. I just don't like renting.......

Ezzy
+1

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: new pup contact question

Post by cjhills » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:05 am

ezzy333 wrote:I have bought pups from many name breeders over the pas5t 50 years including titled dogs and have never been asked to sign a contract. Really not sure I had even heard of one till more recent years. My idea may be wrong but when I purchase something I feel like I own it and that puts me in charge of how it is used. I just don't like renting.......

Ezzy
Why do you assume the contract is all about the breeder's rights. Ours is as much about the buyer's rights.
If I sold a puppy with a known genetic issue I would restrict the buyers breeding rights. It would probably be sold without registration.....................Cj

Meller
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1085
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:28 am
Location: Missouri

Re: new pup contact question

Post by Meller » Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:28 am

cjhills wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I have bought pups from many name breeders over the pas5t 50 years including titled dogs and have never been asked to sign a contract. Really not sure I had even heard of one till more recent years. My idea may be wrong but when I purchase something I feel like I own it and that puts me in charge of how it is used. I just don't like renting.......

Ezzy
Why do you assume the contract is all about the breeder's rights. Ours is as much about the buyer's rights.
If I sold a puppy with a known genetic issue I would restrict the buyers breeding rights. It would probably be sold without registration.....................Cj
You don't need a contract to sell a dog without registration!

User avatar
Urban_Redneck
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:56 pm
Location: NE PA

Re: new pup contract question

Post by Urban_Redneck » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:27 am

I would ask the breeder what they feel they are protecting.

cjhills
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2529
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:37 am
Location: aitkin,mn

Re: new pup contact question

Post by cjhills » Tue Apr 04, 2017 8:53 am

Meller wrote:
cjhills wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I have bought pups from many name breeders over the pas5t 50 years including titled dogs and have never been asked to sign a contract. Really not sure I had even heard of one till more recent years. My idea may be wrong but when I purchase something I feel like I own it and that puts me in charge of how it is used. I just don't like renting.......

Ezzy
Why do you assume the contract is all about the breeder's rights. Ours is as much about the buyer's rights.
If I sold a puppy with a known genetic issue I would restrict the buyers breeding rights. It would probably be sold without registration.....................Cj
You don't need a contract to sell a dog without registration!
Why would that make a difference? You don't need a contract to sell one with registration either. But if you choose to have a contract it is entirely between the buyer and the seller. I have never had a buyer refuse to sign our contract or to the best of my knowledge ever lost a sale because of the contract.
I have bought puppies with contacts and without and find it is about the same either way if a problem comes up( which very seldom happens. Most breeders are going to keep your money once they get it.
By far the biggest number of puppy buyers have no intention to breed the dogs.............Cj

User avatar
DougB
Rank: Champion
Posts: 346
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 5:31 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: new pup contract question

Post by DougB » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:36 pm

Until the dog is sold, it is the breeders private property. He/she can sell or not to anyone they want. You don't have to buy any given dog. There are lots of breeders out there. If the breeder insists on a contract, your choices are 1)sign and accept or 2)go elsewhere. If the pups are good enough, the breeder may have a waiting list. Why is this a dispute? If you breed dogs and don't use a contract, fine. Your decision. If you are buying a dog and the breeder offers a contract, read it and decide if you can live with it. Good dogs show up in rescue every day because of owner failure, and a breeder who protects his dogs should be admired.

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9113
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: new pup contract question

Post by Sharon » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:12 pm

Very well said!

User avatar
greg jacobs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 890
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:04 am
Location: selah washington

Re: new pup contract question

Post by greg jacobs » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:05 pm

I find most contracts are pretty reasonable. I do require a full registration when I buy a pup. And I won't buy from anyone that requires that they pick the pup for me. However their opinion on the pups is welcomed. Or that requires a na test. There are so many nice litters out there every year that it's easy to find what one wants.

Timewise65
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 492
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 11:30 am
Location: Missouri

Re: new pup contract question

Post by Timewise65 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:29 am

Sharon wrote:Very well said!
X2

JONOV
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 408
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:26 am
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: new pup contract question

Post by JONOV » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:35 am

greg jacobs wrote:I find most contracts are pretty reasonable. I do require a full registration when I buy a pup. And I won't buy from anyone that requires that they pick the pup for me. However their opinion on the pups is welcomed. Or that requires a na test. There are so many nice litters out there every year that it's easy to find what one wants.
It depends on the breed. IF you were looking for a Pudelpointer or VDD it might be harder.

Ms. Cage
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 705
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 5:01 pm
Location: Hibbing, Mn. 55746

Re: new pup contract question

Post by Ms. Cage » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:57 am

If a breeder play the games with contracts or limited reg., I look else where.

User avatar
Urban_Redneck
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 219
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:56 pm
Location: NE PA

Re: new pup contract question

Post by Urban_Redneck » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:08 am

I can imagine a breeder (they are all a little crazy) seeing a puppy as an author sees their work- not to be reproduced without permission.

The breeder I got my pup from had the limited registration until spay/neuter clause in my contract. We discussed it at length and mostly what she wanted was to approve of the breeding because of the relatively few dogs in the US and Canada- a one woman breed warden 8) I don't have the bandwidth to breed dogs myself and I promised if I wanted to breed my girl, I would bring her back to Canada and have her handle it all.

I received the her papers yesterday, full registration to me. Whether that's because she's getting spayed after going through false pregnancy, false postpartum depression, & false empty nest syndrome :roll: or because we trust each other, I don't know. In the package she included a dog bone shaped thumb drive full of photos and videos of my pup, her litter-mates, and her parents. She's the best kind of crazy breeder and has become a dear friend.

User avatar
greg jacobs
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 890
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:04 am
Location: selah washington

Re: new pup contract question

Post by greg jacobs » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:05 pm

JONOV wrote:
greg jacobs wrote:I find most contracts are pretty reasonable. I do require a full registration when I buy a pup. And I won't buy from anyone that requires that they pick the pup for me. However their opinion on the pups is welcomed. Or that requires a na test. There are so many nice litters out there every year that it's easy to find what one wants.
It depends on the breed. IF you were looking for a Pudelpointer or VDD it might be harder.
Yeah true. Not an issue with gsp's or the other major breeds.

SouthernTied
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:16 am
Location: Statesboro, Ga

Re: new pup contract question

Post by SouthernTied » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:06 am

My breeder has a contract. His is pretty much insurance if you are unhappy with the pup but also says that you agree to train or have the dog trained for hunting/trial purposes. He does not breed lap dogs and does not want his good bloodline pups to become that. He requires annual check-ins per say.

User avatar
Elkhunter
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:42 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: new pup contract question

Post by Elkhunter » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:41 am

IMO most "breeders" are clueless. They just have a bunch of dogs they breed, and dont really do a lot with their current dogs. Do you have any idea how many days you have to hunt to effectivley use 6-8 dogs. A LOT.

Stay away from breeders IMO, I buy pups from dedicated people that actively hunt/trial their dogs.

SouthernTied
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2016 7:16 am
Location: Statesboro, Ga

Re: new pup contract question

Post by SouthernTied » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:18 am

Elkhunter wrote:IMO most "breeders" are clueless. They just have a bunch of dogs they breed, and dont really do a lot with their current dogs. Do you have any idea how many days you have to hunt to effectivley use 6-8 dogs. A LOT.

Stay away from breeders IMO, I buy pups from dedicated people that actively hunt/trial their dogs.

I guess I worded mine inorrectly. The guy I get mine from runs a kennel. He has 3 great titled dogs. He may have a litter every few years. Usually "starts" them and then sells. He's not a running a business off of breeding by any means. He makes his money on hunts and training.

Post Reply