Why are Bird Hunters Afraid of Field Trials

[ezzy333]

A great post that covers the subject extremely well I think. Thanks Gordonguy

[slistoe]

Not everyone is as nice about it as you and Shags Ray. Certainly not out to discourage a newbie but starting out as a walker in a horseback trial is still not a good idea imo and based on my experience. I only participated in walking trials. Lots of walking trials available if you don't have a horse.

Were you at a CKC or AKC trial? They have some slight differences from teh Am. Fld. versions, the required tolerance for a walking handler being a notable one.

[nhachman]

I've enjoyed reading through all of the comments in this thread on the subject. I am not sure that I would have started or persisted in NSTRA if not for having an uncle who was also just starting out in the sport. We both attended trials and earned our lumps together. I stuck with it because I enjoyed the competition and was happy in learning what I could by just observing the other dogs and handlers. There were plenty of kind people at the trials but not too many that were interested in helping a beginner really learn the ropes, as it pertains to what it takes to win as both a trainer and a handler. As an average competitor I think you also have to come into it with the mindset that you are not going to place every weekend. Or every year for that matter. You need to be OK with that. There are 31 other dogs you run against in a typical trial and only three placements are awarded. The odds are not in your favor. However, if you have a dog who can find birds, stays steady, retrieves and handles well, you have the potential to win any trial. If you don't enjoy participating in the trial, watching other dogs, talking to other dog people, judging dogs, etc. without constantly winning, it's probably not for you.

I believe that NSTRA has slowly been changing over the course of the past 6 years in which I have been involved, and more rapidly recently. People are starting to realize that without making some additional effort to attract and retain new competitors, the sport would die. Many NSTRA regions are having trouble filling trials. New trial formats (Open/Ametuer and Open/Combined) and new rules such as the mentor program have been introduced in an effort to attract and retain new competitors. The web site has been completely overhauled and is going to serve as the backbone of operations, which enhances the digital reach and presence of the association (a form of advertising).

Also to consider is the fact that the overall volume of people who own bird dogs and hunt them has been declining as the bird populations have declined. Less people have trained dogs, less people available to get interested in the sport. I won't say it never happens but who gets into dogs for field trialing, if they were not a bird hunter before? Hopefully with things looking up for wild birds the last couple of years there will be more people in the pool. I sold a couple of pups recently to people who had been out of bird dogs for a while but were now getting back in because of the couple of decent years for quail. They were also wanting to take their children or grandchildren out with them.

There were a couple of mentions regarding how to find out when and where NSTRA trials are to be held. The information is always on the web site on the Regions page, http://www.nstra.org/regions/. The locations are usually not precise because a lot of times there is no address for an empty field. The trial chairman's contact information is listed and they will be able to tell you where the trial grounds are located.

That's enough rambling for now, I need to get back to work

[Sharon]

Not everyone is as nice about it as you and Shags Ray. Certainly not out to discourage a newbie but starting out as a walker in a horseback trial is still not a good idea imo and based on my experience. I only participated in walking trials. Lots of walking trials available if you don't have a horse.

Were you at a CKC or AKC trial? They have some slight differences from teh Am. Fld. versions, the required tolerance for a walking handler being a notable one.

Thanks for understanding what I was trying to say. I participated in walking American Field trials. I saw many reactions to a walker- even saw the running order quietly changed to put walkers together and a guy withdraw rather than go with a walker. It was not all " let's be nice".

[RayGubernat]

Not everyone is as nice about it as you and Shags Ray. Certainly not out to discourage a newbie but starting out as a walker in a horseback trial is still not a good idea imo and based on my experience. I only participated in walking trials. Lots of walking trials available if you don't have a horse.

Were you at a CKC or AKC trial? They have some slight differences from teh Am. Fld. versions, the required tolerance for a walking handler being a notable one.

Thanks for understanding what I was trying to say. I participated in walking American Field trials. I saw many reactions to a walker- even saw the running order quietly changed to put walkers together and a guy withdraw rather than go with a walker. It was not all " let's be nice".

Sharon -

I do understand "the look", because I got it a few times, before I got a horse.

My focus on my response was that we all do need to do a better job of accommodating the needs of the new handler.

No, I am not particularly happy if I come to the line at an AKC or AF trial and there is a handler there on foot. If that happens my whole plan for the brace just went out the window. Not to mention I would rather walk in hunting boots than riding boots. Actually I would rather ride....

But that is life.

I try not to be so focused on placing a dog that I forget what I am really there for. We should all be there to see the best dog perform, whether or not it is our dog or not. If I was a pro, doing it for money and needed the win and the purse, it might be different...but I am an amateur.

Now, if I have a dog primed to deliver a reaching horseback performance, it can be a challenge for the dog to switch gears and run a foot handled brace, but...a good dog should be able to.

Sometimes it even works... and if it does and the dog handles the way it should, win, lose or draw... we should be pleased. because the dog did what we asked it to do. I would be.

RayG

[SCT]

Here's my $0.02 on why some bird hunters are afraid of field trials. First off I think "afraid" isn't the right word, but maybe "shy away from" might be better. As the word "afraid" elicits a negative, defensive response from some. I have attended and participated and volunteered in trials (AKC, NVHDA and NSTRA) off and on for the last 10 years. I'm amazed at the work that goes into an event. The folks that put these on should be paid... Maybe being paid would encourage people to help. Here are some of the challenges I and others I know have faced. Money and time are just a few of the reasons. Sometimes certain behaviors that are encouraged in bird dogs are a determinant to trial dogs.

The requirement to be steady to wing and shot... and fall in some cases is beyond the capability (Time and money) for most. As I'm a bird hunter first and a wannabe trial guy second, I suffer from the lack of discipline required to keep my dogs trained to the level required to be competitive. I bet I'm not the only one.

Field trials and bird hunting are two different things. Many get confused. There are some similar things involved, but the two should not be viewed in the same light. Like comparing the trip to the supermarket to competing in the Daytona 500. The same dog can win at one and be an outstanding bird dog (As defined by the general population) but it doesn't happen often.

I believe winning field trial dogs are developed. A pup has to have a high level of the following traits: independence, desire, drive, physical capabilities, grit, etc... I believe that one can take that pup and develop it towards competition or one can take that same pup and turn it into a great weekend hunting dog. However, If it doesn't have the prerequisite traits it will never be a competitive trial dog but it still could be the "Best " birddog that John Q Public ever owned.

This is where money and time come into play as it takes money...and time to have horses. Developing a pup includes Horse-back handling. If a dog only gets handled from horseback in a trial it will take a few events for the dog to figure out where the handler is. The first time I handled my Samie dog off horse back she didn't know where I was. She could hear my voice and would look for me but didn't recognize me up there. I had to get off and on the ground for her to think that all was right again. It took a couple times but she came around. But it took a couple times... Some would have quit there.

Also, I think a dog that's trained from horse back moves faster and forward more than searching in a flat pattern. Which is important in trials but only important to a select few bird hunters.

In trials chasing or following up after the bird, covey or singles are not a good thing and when it happens this behavior can take a dog out of competition. However most bird dogs are encouraged to chase after a covey. The bird hunters I know shooting birds is more important that the race or finishing to the front. This is a conflicting behavior.

Another conflicting behavior in field trials is "ho-hoing", which is frowned upon as this takes time away from finding birds. Ho-Hoing is where the dog comes back often to the handler for encouragement, water, to make contact with the handler. But the Bird hunters that I know generally like their dogs making contact often as it shows the desire to keep in contact with their handler, hunting to the gun and the handler knows where pup is. It all depends on your point of view. When the Trialers I know train they discourage ho-hoing by making sure there's always water out to the front so the dogs are encouraged to go forward and not return to the handler. OR I have found that I shouldn't carry water while on my short 30 minute run / walks in the field. But when hunting it's hard not to carry water and be considerate of the dog at the same time. I noticed that It doesn't take long for a hunting dog to figure out that you have water and behaviors change causing problems for trialing later on.

Another problem is many of the bird hunters I know don't "formally" train their dogs, therefore don't use pen raised birds. I have seen several bird hunters come out to a club sponsored events which are designed to get new folks into the fold. Only to see that their pup won't point a pen raised birds or pigeons. Now the owner is embarrassed and it's generally the last time you see them at an event. They were just told it's going to take more time with their pup. More time away from family and other responsibilities. They will be resigned to the belief that their pup won't point pigeons and not make the effort to change that, which can be done but it takes time and money.

Moving forward now, for me and many others I suspect, Horses are prohibitively expensive. I believe more walking trials would be helpful in getting participation, but tradition is a hard thing to change. Many of the "Old Guard" trial guys I know are older and can only get around these hills on a horse. Don't ask them to walk more than a brace. Some physically can't do it, but these are the guys deciding the types of events. Why would they put on a trial that would be difficult if not impossible for them to participate in? (Rhetorical)

Paying some or all of the people that put on the events which will less likely burn out the volunteers and encourage more events. Which in turn will offer more chances to participate. Trials are limited in my area because there simply isn't enough people to put them on. The volunteers are tired, and justifiably so.

This pretty well sums it up! Great post!

[V-John]

Gordonguys post was a good one. I'll add one more thing to his post. It takes ground. Lots and lots of training ground to be able to to develop a HB type of dog. Grounds where the land owner (if it isn't you) doesn't mind horses on their grounds. The ability to get the dogs, horses, equipment, etc etc there to train. And lots of public ground doesn't allow horses, dog training, etc. etc.

Just a thought.

[shags]

Having lots of time, money, equipment, horses, access to land, and all that makes it easier but it's possible without having all that.

When I first started trialing we lived in the burbs. If I was lucky I got to the state ft grounds once or twice every month or two, and ran the dogs on foot when we got to go. If the planets aligned just right, I was able to run the dogs once in a while at the private grounds owned by someone I met through trials. I had little kids and a tight budget, no horse, no roading rig.
I finished those dogs finished as AKC FC/AFCs and had a lot of fun doing it.

It takes some ingenuity and commitment to train and keep the dogs conditioned, but it's doable. It's the commitment that's vital though, IME. I wouldn't advise folks to just pull their dog off the sofa once in a while and expect to be competitive, or to not expect scheduling and budgeting issues in order to compete, but if the desire is there, it's likely possible.

[polmaise]

It takes some ingenuity and commitment to train and keep the dogs conditioned, but it's doable. It's the commitment that's vital though, IME. I wouldn't advise folks to just pull their dog off the sofa once in a while and expect to be competitive, or to not expect scheduling and budgeting issues in order to compete, but if the desire is there, it's likely possible.

Spot on ! ..Some even think they can do it on line

[Dakotazeb]

I took a female Brittany pup with some excellent breeding 8 years ago and ended up with one heck of a hunting dog and a NSTRA champion without any formal training. Basically I taught the dog obedience and then took her hunting. Never bought a bird to work her on. She and I ran in our first NSTRA trial when she was only 1.5 years old. It was learning on the fly for both of us. I didn't spend hours in the field training her. Just hunting and trials. I know I was a lucky guy to get a dog like this. Unfortunately a spinal tumor took her from me two months ago after she just turned 8. So it doesn't necessarily take a lot of time and money for training to be competitive in a field trial like NSTRA. However, if you are going to run trials it does take time and money to participate. I know 30 years ago, while raising a family, I did 't have the time nor the money.

One of the things about NSTRA is that dogs do not have to be steady to wing and shot. I think that makes the NSTRA game much more accessible to many people. But it's not for everyone, I understand that. I personally enjoy NSTRA and the good friends I've formed through participation in the trials.

[nhachman]

It takes some ingenuity and commitment to train and keep the dogs conditioned, but it's doable. It's the commitment that's vital though, IME. I wouldn't advise folks to just pull their dog off the sofa once in a while and expect to be competitive, or to not expect scheduling and budgeting issues in order to compete, but if the desire is there, it's likely possible.

Spot on ! ..Some even think they can do it on line

But some champions do spend quite a bit of time on the couch and otherwise lazing around

[shags]

Haha, yeah...tell me about it

[DeLo727]

For me its the competitive standpoint, the money, and the fact that my dog seems to develop some bad habits when he gets on liberated birds.