Dog energy

[llewellinsetter]

Hey guys just a quick question, my dog is in very good shape and will hunt until i make him quit. my question is does anyone here use any sort of recovery supplement for your pup? or just go all natural. also does anyone give supplements during the hunt to help a dog keep hunting hard?

cameron

[tekoa]

Most Vets, Cornell Canine research and lots of field trialers, and mushers recommend/use these elements before, during and after exercise, for Glycogen replacement.

I use "Fit Dog" which contains:
Water 1.5 to 2.25 liters a day for working dogs ( Hydration is the most important element in recovery, a 7 to 8 % decline in hydration can begin to damage a dogs organs)
• Maltodextrin (maize or potato)
• Vitamin B, E and C
• Magnesium
( there are many others like Glucophage which have different sources of glycogen)

Don't use Electrolytes, dogs don't need them and some can be harmful.

[Brenttos]

Look into Dyne or Meg-A-Cal on revival animals website. I would also say Red Cell, the rest would be a good quality dog food.

[drcrabbs]

Take a look at K-9 Energy Edge (k9energy edge.com). EE is a maltodextrin based product developed by DMV Angie Untisz. Dr. Untisz developed the product to keep her herding dogs from losing their competitive edge (both energy and metal acuity) during a long day of competition. She mainly relied on extensive research conducted by Purina on sled dogs and greyhounds which concluded that performance dogs will accept the direct replacement of glycogen at the cellular level if given in the right form within 30 minutes of exercise (up to about 80% of the glycogen used). Maltodextrin is a carbohydrate in the right formulation to provide glycogen at the cellular level and has been used by the competitive sled dog and greyhound racers for years. It is also well known in the competitive Pointer world.

I have been using it for about 7 years both for hunting dogs and field trial competition (GSPs) and it has started to become the go to product for several of the top GSP Pro trainers. Its advantage over similar products I have tried is that it dissolves immediately and the dogs like it!

Dean

[gonehuntin']

Lion Country's Glycocharge. It's the real deal.

[tekoa]

I'm not a Vet and this is just my opinion, but it is based on a lot of experience, I have talked to several Vets about this theory, and it's a bit like asking economists about the economic growth, some say yes, some say no and the others say we don't have enough data.................

Reading these replies to your post has made me remember how complex this topic really is.

We really can't just pick any of the recovery and energy products without considering the rest of the dog's sources of nutrition.

Most of the recovery products use maltodextrin, which is ( probably) the only ingredient needed (besides water) for recovery. But many of them contain large numbers of other ingredients including sodium, potassium and various chlorides. In some of them sodium is the second or third largest ingredient.

Most premium dog foods provide 5 to 10 times the sodium and chlorides dogs need. Their digestive, metabolic and other systems handle this excess by excreting it through the kidney's . This works fine until the dog becomes dehydrated, as he does to some degree every time he runs, hunts, exercises vigorously. Giving him a supplement to replace his glycogen is safe and effective, but adding supplemental sodium and chlorides is unnecessary and, I believe potentially harmful to the dog's organs.

About 20 years ago I started using the dog food with the lowest sodium, potassium and other chlorides that I could find and limited my use of supplements to Glycogen replacement only. The Setters I had prior to that time lived an average of 10 years. The ones I've had since then have lived an average of 14. Now. at lot of that could be genetics, keeping the dogs thin, lots of exercise and better veterinary care, better food, but I believe that keeping their blood sodium and chloride levels as balanced as possible, especially during periods of dehydration, e.g. exercise, has contributed to their longevity.

I recommend you use a supplement with as few ingredients as possible, just maltodextrin and flavoring if it can be found.

[drcrabbs]

Tekos is spot on. In addition to using a GLYCOGEN replacement product, you should be feeding a top quality dog food (I use Purina ProPlan). Supplements ocntaining all of the ingredients normally associated with human metabolism are not only unnecessary they may be counter productive in dogs. Canine systems just don't work the same way human systems do. Visit the Energy Edge website (k9energyedge.com) and read the information about canine nutrition.
Dean

[AAA Gundogs]

You guys are falling into the sugar cycle.

Carbo loading is for humans. Fat loading is for dogs.

[art hubbard]

plus 1 to AAA

[llewellinsetter]

I'm not a Vet and this is just my opinion, but it is based on a lot of experience, I have talked to several Vets about this theory, and it's a bit like asking economists about the economic growth, some say yes, some say no and the others say we don't have enough data.................

Reading these replies to your post has made me remember how complex this topic really is.

We really can't just pick any of the recovery and energy products without considering the rest of the dog's sources of nutrition.

Most of the recovery products use maltodextrin, which is ( probably) the only ingredient needed (besides water) for recovery. But many of them contain large numbers of other ingredients including sodium, potassium and various chlorides. In some of them sodium is the second or third largest ingredient.

Most premium dog foods provide 5 to 10 times the sodium and chlorides dogs need. Their digestive, metabolic and other systems handle this excess by excreting it through the kidney's . This works fine until the dog becomes dehydrated, as he does to some degree every time he runs, hunts, exercises vigorously. Giving him a supplement to replace his glycogen is safe and effective, but adding supplemental sodium and chlorides is unnecessary and, I believe potentially harmful to the dog's organs.

About 20 years ago I started using the dog food with the lowest sodium, potassium and other chlorides that I could find and limited my use of supplements to Glycogen replacement only. The Setters I had prior to that time lived an average of 10 years. The ones I've had since then have lived an average of 14. Now. at lot of that could be genetics, keeping the dogs thin, lots of exercise and better veterinary care, better food, but I believe that keeping their blood sodium and chloride levels as balanced as possible, especially during periods of dehydration, e.g. exercise, has contributed to their longevity.

I recommend you use a supplement with as few ingredients as possible, just maltodextrin and flavoring if it can be found.

thanks for the info, I'm going to chat with my vet as he has helped us build a really nice diet for bruno, I'm hoping he will have some more insight for us!

[tekoa]

AAA, Art

Absolutely, dogs run on fat.

Not recommending carb loading, just Glycogen recovery from carbs for short term exercise and next day recovery. If you hunt a couple of hours a day and hunt every other day clean water and good food are you'll need. Supplementation is only needed when you are hunting all day, several days in a row. Or, as in my case where you running old dogs,(mine are 12) who recover slowly.

Quality dog food intended for working dogs have 18 to 25% fat, and are more than adequate for gun dog energy needs.

Here's a quote lifted from Energy Edge:

Dogs have relatively small glycogen stores in their muscles that can be quickly depleted. In general, a dog on a well balanced diet will replace, on average, only 40% of pre-exercise levels of glycogen in a 24 hour period. Consider the canine athlete working or competing on consecutive days. That dog will eventually deplete its glycogen stores leading to fatigue and diminished performance.

Fortunately, we can improve glycogen replacement by taking advantage of GLUT4 pathways on muscle cells that are active during exercise and for short periods after exercise. By providing a “good carbohydrate” within 30 minutes of exercise, glycogen stores can be refilled to approximately 85% of pre-exercise levels. That’s more than twice the glycogen restored!

[Meller]

Satan Balls! Is all I ever needed, to keep them going.

[oregon woodsmoke]

If you want your dog to work hard for long periods of time, feed a high fat diet.

Dogs can digest a lot of fat, but it needs to be introduced gradually. A big load of fat to a dog not accustomed to it can cause pancreatitis.

Easiest way to increase fat is to add a couple of tablespoons of vegetable oil. I prefer corn oil, as long as the dog isn't allergic to corn. Or add a bit of fatty meat. Or oily fish (make sure salmon is well cooked to prevent salmon poisoning).

[DeLo727]

I tried K9 restart this year. Noticed no difference and he wasn't keen on it. He would drink it with a little coaxing but I'm discontinuing.

[AAA Gundogs]

AAA, Art

Absolutely, dogs run on fat.

Not recommending carb loading, just Glycogen recovery from carbs for short term exercise and next day recovery. If you hunt a couple of hours a day and hunt every other day clean water and good food are you'll need. Supplementation is only needed when you are hunting all day, several days in a row. Or, as in my case where you running old dogs,(mine are 12) who recover slowly.

Quality dog food intended for working dogs have 18 to 25% fat, and are more than adequate for gun dog energy needs.

Here's a quote lifted from Energy Edge:

Dogs have relatively small glycogen stores in their muscles that can be quickly depleted. In general, a dog on a well balanced diet will replace, on average, only 40% of pre-exercise levels of glycogen in a 24 hour period. Consider the canine athlete working or competing on consecutive days. That dog will eventually deplete its glycogen stores leading to fatigue and diminished performance.

Fortunately, we can improve glycogen replacement by taking advantage of GLUT4 pathways on muscle cells that are active during exercise and for short periods after exercise. By providing a “good carbohydrate” within 30 minutes of exercise, glycogen stores can be refilled to approximately 85% of pre-exercise levels. That’s more than twice the glycogen restored!

Dogs are amazingly adaptable animals but even they struggle with the "balanced" nutritional spectrum of the average modern canine diet.

Dogs get energy from fat. A dog that is fed a high fat, with moderate to high protein, and a very low carb diet, for a couple of months, shows not only a huge increase mitochondrial size but experiences significant mitochondrial genesis. With the addition of strenuous exercise, they become so hyper efficient at burning FFAs that glycogen metabolism is unnecessary. In addition, in a recent dietary study conducted on Labradors, the dogs that received the 60% fat calories diet saw a VO2 increase of ~50%.

Also, research has shown sled dogs get fed fat upon fat upon fat while racing and, without any recovery carbs, are actually stronger in the subsequent race days and show no glycogen store depletion.

Anyway, the research into this canine mitochodrial process and genesis is not only significant for canine performance but also for humans because of its potential in the battle against obesity and type 2 diabetes.

Ps. I can think of several applications for post workout supplementation with very high gi carbs but canine endurance athletes isn't one of them.

[bustingcover]

RF1 or K9 Superfuel as far as supplements go. I also have used pure maltodextrin mixed in water.