make my dog relocate

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Moonshine Ike
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make my dog relocate

Post by Moonshine Ike » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:39 pm

I have one of my pointers trained for field trials, when I go in to flush the birds and they've moved on, I have to tap him on the head to relocate.

This isn't working well with wild birds. How can I 'untrain' this dog and teach him to relocate on his own?

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Vision
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Re: make my dog relocate

Post by Vision » Thu Oct 06, 2016 5:43 pm

What exactly is the problem? Are the birds flushing farther away from the dog than your used to?

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Sharon
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Re: make my dog relocate

Post by Sharon » Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:40 pm

I think it takes a long hunting relationship for most dogs to know when it can relocate on its own. If you don't want to use the tap when hunting, transition that to a command . Like any command habit - using the command on a running pheasant for example - it will reach the point where the dog knows, "It's running ; I can relocate."

In AF trials the dog can relocate on its own if the handler hasn't gotten in front of the dog to flush the bird nor said "whoa".
Many folk who participate in trials never want the dog learning to relocate on its own.

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Chukar12
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Re: make my dog relocate

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:50 pm

Use a pre que to the que. If the head tap releases the dog just prior to the tap say alright, OK or a whistle signal. After enough reps the dog will anticipate the touch release que following the audible que and start moving...it won't take much. The dog is always itching for a little more latitude...

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marc
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Re: make my dog relocate

Post by marc » Fri Oct 07, 2016 5:33 am

I used the "OK" ahead of the head tap. After two or three times, the verbal was all that was necessary. I then went from the verbal "OK" to eye contact with a yes nod. Now we're silent.

Moonshine Ike
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Re: make my dog relocate

Post by Moonshine Ike » Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:35 am

Vision wrote:What exactly is the problem? Are the birds flushing farther away from the dog than your used to?
That's not it.

We primarily hunt Huns and Chukar and it's very common for these birds to be pointed, then move on 30-50+ yards, then stop, then maybe do it again. We've even seen birds move out over 100 yards.

The dogs need to relocate, otherwise you'll end up with empty finds.

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Vision
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Re: make my dog relocate

Post by Vision » Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:47 am

I understand because I hunt those same birds too. I was just trying to get more information before recommending a solution.

I have learned to read my dog and I can tell by her body language when she has them pinned or they are a long way off. I give my dog a two toot whistle, or tell her alright when it's time to move up. Of course that is only when she is the sharing mood and wants me to join in the fun, other times she wants to have the fun herself and just relocates until they fly and then looks at me like, look there they go......wasn't that fun.

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Re: make my dog relocate

Post by MSU Aggie » Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:51 am

I had this issue with a very deep nosed GSP. On a windy day she would point from a mile away. We transitioned to the OK command as described above. Doing it this way made it easy to transition between testing and hunting, she didn't move unless told to.

Moonshine Ike
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Re: make my dog relocate

Post by Moonshine Ike » Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:33 am

It sounds like you folks know and understand what I'm wanting. With wild birds during actual hunting conditions, I want the dog to be where the birds are AT, not where they WERE

This particular field trial-trained dog happens to have a whale of a nose, which can be a good thing but sometimes his initial point is already a long ways from the birds and can be a detriment if the birds are the movin' on type

I'd like to get to a point where this dog will automatically relocate without verbal ques. For now, I'll follow the advice here and give verbals. Do I do this before or after the head tap or do I not do the head tap at all?

Dakotazeb
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Re: make my dog relocate

Post by Dakotazeb » Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:09 pm

After a few years in the field chasing roosters my Brittany learned to relocate on her own. She will go on point, if the bird is still there she won't move. However, if the bird has move on she will wait for me to get maybe 10 yds from her and then she will start tracking. Will go on point again and then we may repeat that sequence maybe several times before pinning a bird down. It's all matter of experience. The more birds they have exposure to the faster it will come. Of course having a good dog helps too! :D

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Re: make my dog relocate

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:30 pm

Moonshine Ike wrote:It sounds like you folks know and understand what I'm wanting. With wild birds during actual hunting conditions, I want the dog to be where the birds are AT, not where they WERE

This particular field trial-trained dog happens to have a whale of a nose, which can be a good thing but sometimes his initial point is already a long ways from the birds and can be a detriment if the birds are the movin' on type

I'd like to get to a point where this dog will automatically relocate without verbal ques. For now, I'll follow the advice here and give verbals. Do I do this before or after the head tap or do I not do the head tap at all?
Do you, or have you, used launchers in your training? I'm not expert, so take this for what its worth, but I've always wanted my pointer to relocate herself on running birds. She's simply a hunting dog and I have no ideas of her being anything else. So when using launchers she would sometimes point an empty launcher that still had some scent... I simply just watched her quietly and let her learn that the fading scent meant there was no bird there. It hasn't taken any "point" out of her, but made her a little smarter (just a little because she's not the brightest bulb).

Leeza
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Re: make my dog relocate

Post by Leeza » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:03 am

Always give the new verbal command first and then the old command (the head tap). Once he is in motion after the head tap, he won't or simply can't hear the new command and it won't register with him. Depending on how dialed into you he is, you may be able to transition quickly to the head nod or wave of a finger to move him on. A dog that rolls his eyes at you on point can be moved on with the wave of a finger. If he starts rolling his eyes or even God forbid moving his head to make eye contact, you have "untrained" him and you better have a signal you will use from then on to release him from a distance. That being said, always read the dog carefully to not misunderstand the situation. Seems like all pointing types have a "tell" for how sure they are, whether it's flagging, a tail droop, etc. if he absolutely will not move on, his nose says he has something. You will have to prove him right or wrong (and they're almost always right) to solidify that transition from a head tap to a verbal or visual release. If you prefer the verbal release, go with it. Some dogs transition well to silent hunting. If he starts watching you from a distance, he is watching your body language. Have that visual signal ready for him and use it consistently. If he has been working primarily in trials, he may not look at you for a while. Hunting chukars and huns silently is an interesting partnership and well worth pursuing. He will learn to relocate on his own as he gets experience, and that's where it is important to read the dog. It will be really important to allow him to learn how to do that and still hold the birds for you. In the meantime work on that signal or verbal release. Happy hunting and "untraining". :o

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DonF
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Re: make my dog relocate

Post by DonF » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:08 am

I never used a head tap to relocate. Rather i would say "alright' in a quiet voice. My wife used to scout for me and she found my Drifter on a point and relocated him and the other judge caught her, didn't do anything though. I taught my dog's to relocate only if there wasn't a bird or they weren't sure. Got them on point early and would relocate them into the bird and pop it when they were about 10' out. That Amer Fld rule is a good rule. make for good dog work! The dog's job is to accurately keep the bird located until the hunter get's there.

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