Ruining A Dog With E Collar

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whiteapino254
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Ruining A Dog With E Collar

Post by whiteapino254 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:36 pm

So I am posting to get clarification and hopefully put my mind at ease. What does ruining a dog mean when its in regards to a e collar. Just so I can understand what that intels. As in the definition and some info.
I have been working on the collar for heel, Sit, Come. I started from a person in a fb group who referred me to their training methods using the crate and collar. My dog has always been good with the crate since we first started obedience. I was told to do continuous into crate and nick for come. She did well, but was getting very nervous in the crate and kept trying to leave after going in. My main fault was not accepting her response on the first training as doing good and might not of praised and stretched the training too long. should have stopped when I was ahead but didn't realize until after. So im not sure if she was just confused moving forward. I continued work but wasn't gaining progress. when I would tap the collar she would kind of scramble in the house with the leash on. But would make her do the lesson then followed with high praise. I then focused more on come, She has good whistle recall in the field but at a park or with people around she tends to ignore. Ive gone back to a check cord and tried to fine tune but she would ignore off leash if she wants to meet another dog or person. So I started doing some e collar work with that. Now my collar goes up to 127 and she shows a sign of feeling it at 9-13 which I don't even feel. We were at the park yesterday I said come and hit the collar she looked then ignored. I turned it up a little and did it again she scratched at it but didn't come. I stopped using it and just voice commanded until she came. But a day prior she was coming with the collar and whistle. That might of been the best response day from her collar since she. Which I provided high praise everytime because I was trying to teach her. I just cant get her to snap her head whenever she is doing something and know to come back or else there will be more of this sensation on her neck shes kind of looking past it. But im not cranking up the levels much because im not sure if I should also when I have it seems if shes going to ignore it shes going to ignore it. The best response I have been getting is with walking she was a leash puller if she wasn't wearing a prong. I have since went back to a slip leash and when in stores or walks she is behaving better and learning the message with the e collar. I believe is because I hit the nick when I tug the leash to send the same message. She is catching on great. I know its not a overnight fix but her progress for walking has been the best out of it all. I just hope I haven't done any damage on "ruining" my dog and collar as I would really like to use it. I have seeked a professional im going to pay to help condition next week. I hope my pup isnt learning to ignore it. But it seems as if she just isn't connecting the dots. Im hoping everything is fine but wanted to turn to people with knowledge for their input.

Thanks,

RickB
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Re: Ruining A Dog With E Collar

Post by RickB » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:36 pm

You can't ruin a dog with an e-collar. You can set your training back a long long long way though.

Right now, I'd say you seem to not really understand the training you are giving. I'd suggest you get a training recipe (something in print or video or both). Obtain it. Understand it. Follow it. If there is something about it you don't understand, keep shopping until you find something you do understand.

There is an important step in training with an e-collar. It is called "overlaying". If you don't understand what that is, this is more evidence that you should buy a training recipe.

A dog needs to understand that there will be punishment for non-compliance, but you need to teach the dog *how to avoid* the punishment. Take recall. To start, the dog gets a treat or praise for coming. Other than missing out on the treat, there is no downside for not coming. So, if the distraction is better than the missed treat, the dog stays with the distraction.

Then one day, you start stimulating when the dog does not come when called. REmember that a dog does not know that he is being trained. All he knows is that ther is a pain in his neck. It is totally irrelevant to coming or not coming. It just shows up one day. The dog has not learned that coming makes the stimulation turn off. You need to educate the dog on this fact. It starts with a check cord. It starts in the back yard, even when there is zero distraction. First you start reeling the dog in with a check cord. The tugging on the neck stops when the dog comes.

An oversimplification of "overlaying" is when you are stimulating at the same time you are reeling the dog in with a check cord. What happens is the dog learns that the check cord and the e-collar are the same thing. But until you *teach* the pooch that they are the same thing, the dog has no clue how to turn off the stim.

Understand that the above is not enough info to train a dog. It is a very broad simplification. If you didn't do this step, you need to educate yourself a bit more.

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Sharon
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Re: Ruining A Dog With E Collar

Post by Sharon » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:49 pm

whiteapino254 wrote:So I am posting to get clarification and hopefully put my mind at ease. What does ruining a dog mean when its in regards to a e collar. Just so I can understand what that intels. As in the definition and some info.
I have been working on the collar for heel, Sit, Come. I started from a person in a fb group who referred me to their training methods using the crate and collar. My dog has always been good with the crate since we first started obedience. I was told to do continuous into crate and nick for come. She did well, but was getting very nervous in the crate and kept trying to leave after going in. My main fault was not accepting her response on the first training as doing good and might not of praised and stretched the training too long. should have stopped when I was ahead but didn't realize until after. So im not sure if she was just confused moving forward. I continued work but wasn't gaining progress. when I would tap the collar she would kind of scramble in the house with the leash on. But would make her do the lesson then followed with high praise. I then focused more on come, She has good whistle recall in the field but at a park or with people around she tends to ignore. Ive gone back to a check cord and tried to fine tune but she would ignore off leash if she wants to meet another dog or person. So I started doing some e collar work with that. Now my collar goes up to 127 and she shows a sign of feeling it at 9-13 which I don't even feel. We were at the park yesterday I said come and hit the collar she looked then ignored. I turned it up a little and did it again she scratched at it but didn't come. I stopped using it and just voice commanded until she came. But a day prior she was coming with the collar and whistle. That might of been the best response day from her collar since she. Which I provided high praise everytime because I was trying to teach her. I just cant get her to snap her head whenever she is doing something and know to come back or else there will be more of this sensation on her neck shes kind of looking past it. But im not cranking up the levels much because im not sure if I should also when I have it seems if shes going to ignore it shes going to ignore it. The best response I have been getting is with walking she was a leash puller if she wasn't wearing a prong. I have since went back to a slip leash and when in stores or walks she is behaving better and learning the message with the e collar. I believe is because I hit the nick when I tug the leash to send the same message. She is catching on great. I know its not a overnight fix but her progress for walking has been the best out of it all. I just hope I haven't done any damage on "ruining" my dog and collar as I would really like to use it. I have seeked a professional im going to pay to help condition next week. I hope my pup isnt learning to ignore it. But it seems as if she just isn't connecting the dots. Im hoping everything is fine but wanted to turn to people with knowledge for their input.

Thanks,
Big read :) How old is this dog?

ruining ? example: Let's say one uses the e collar too much in the field. The dog may l start to hang around the handler, instead of moving out, as the dog is unsure . NOt a good thing but not ruined. Wasted time needed to fix.

e collar and crate: When I can get my hands on my dog - in the house- I don't think an e collar is needed. Don't go e collar crazy for every behaviour wanted.

"We were at the park yesterday I said come and hit the collar she looked then ignored. I turned it up a little and did it again she scratched at it but didn't come. I stopped using it and just voice commanded until she came." Lost opportunity. I'd have turned that collar up until the dog came without my voice. She may be fooling you at reacting at a low level if she is ignoring you at that level.

"I'm not cranking up the levels much because I'm not sure if I should, also when I have it seems if she's going to ignore it she's going to ignore it then ....."

If you are SURE that the dog knows what "come" means then choose a level that makes her come. Don't fart around.

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whiteapino254
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Re: Ruining A Dog With E Collar

Post by whiteapino254 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:31 pm

Sharon wrote:
whiteapino254 wrote:So I am posting to get clarification and hopefully put my mind at ease. What does ruining a dog mean when its in regards to a e collar. Just so I can understand what that intels. As in the definition and some info.
I have been working on the collar for heel, Sit, Come. I started from a person in a fb group who referred me to their training methods using the crate and collar. My dog has always been good with the crate since we first started obedience. I was told to do continuous into crate and nick for come. She did well, but was getting very nervous in the crate and kept trying to leave after going in. My main fault was not accepting her response on the first training as doing good and might not of praised and stretched the training too long. should have stopped when I was ahead but didn't realize until after. So im not sure if she was just confused moving forward. I continued work but wasn't gaining progress. when I would tap the collar she would kind of scramble in the house with the leash on. But would make her do the lesson then followed with high praise. I then focused more on come, She has good whistle recall in the field but at a park or with people around she tends to ignore. Ive gone back to a check cord and tried to fine tune but she would ignore off leash if she wants to meet another dog or person. So I started doing some e collar work with that. Now my collar goes up to 127 and she shows a sign of feeling it at 9-13 which I don't even feel. We were at the park yesterday I said come and hit the collar she looked then ignored. I turned it up a little and did it again she scratched at it but didn't come. I stopped using it and just voice commanded until she came. But a day prior she was coming with the collar and whistle. That might of been the best response day from her collar since she. Which I provided high praise everytime because I was trying to teach her. I just cant get her to snap her head whenever she is doing something and know to come back or else there will be more of this sensation on her neck shes kind of looking past it. But im not cranking up the levels much because im not sure if I should also when I have it seems if shes going to ignore it shes going to ignore it. The best response I have been getting is with walking she was a leash puller if she wasn't wearing a prong. I have since went back to a slip leash and when in stores or walks she is behaving better and learning the message with the e collar. I believe is because I hit the nick when I tug the leash to send the same message. She is catching on great. I know its not a overnight fix but her progress for walking has been the best out of it all. I just hope I haven't done any damage on "ruining" my dog and collar as I would really like to use it. I have seeked a professional im going to pay to help condition next week. I hope my pup isnt learning to ignore it. But it seems as if she just isn't connecting the dots. Im hoping everything is fine but wanted to turn to people with knowledge for their input.

Thanks,
Big read :) How old is this dog?

ruining ? example: Let's say one uses the e collar too much in the field. The dog may l start to hang around the handler, instead of moving out, as the dog is unsure . NOt a good thing but not ruined. Wasted time needed to fix.

e collar and crate: When I can get my hands on my dog - in the house- I don't think an e collar is needed. Don't go e collar crazy for every behaviour wanted.

"We were at the park yesterday I said come and hit the collar she looked then ignored. I turned it up a little and did it again she scratched at it but didn't come. I stopped using it and just voice commanded until she came." Lost opportunity. I'd have turned that collar up until the dog came without my voice. She may be fooling you at reacting at a low level if she is ignoring you at that level.

"I'm not cranking up the levels much because I'm not sure if I should, also when I have it seems if she's going to ignore it she's going to ignore it then ....."

If you are SURE that the dog knows what "come" means then choose a level that makes her come. Don't fart around.
I have a 7 month old pudelpointer.

I rarely use the collar right now in the field she has been building great confidence after her first bird planting and finally pushing further from me. I only use the whistle for recall in the field and she responds well. Now I haven't had her in the field with a other dog so I don't know how that will change since I plan on hunting her with a friend and his GSP.

I was also thinking of creating a new foundation with a new command word such as "here" or "Aquie" start from scratch with verbal re build the foundation.

Also ive read a lot that says people train with continuous but have spoke with people that only train with nick.

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Re: Ruining A Dog With E Collar

Post by aulrich » Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:54 pm

+1 to finding a proper training program, personally I used the one on the George Hickox Pointing dog DVD. In general it follows the standard teach, enforce and re-enforce progression. One thing I liked about it was it’s not about 50,000 volts of compliance.

The teach phase was very open and on my next dog I will do clicker training

The enforce stage I think the key to the enforce stage is that the dog has next to no chance to fail and get confused. As an example Hickox starts with the kennel command when we started to enforce on that command we had the dog on two cc’s with one of them running through the kennel when I pressed the button for the first time my son gently pulled him into the kennel and i turned off the pressure the moment the paw hit plastic. There was no way the dog was not going into the kennel and it really only took a few repetitions and we could get rid of the check cords. There are stages to the enforce phase as well.

And then the re-enforce stage you do both use positive on compliance and correction as needed

As you work through the various commands each command comes faster. Heel was the last command in the sequence and 15 minutes with an e-collar did what 18 months of everything else didn’t.

An e-collar is a very effective tool and really not that hard to learn to use, but it is not instant obedience in a box.

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AZ Brittany Guy
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Re: Ruining A Dog With E Collar

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:47 pm

It almost seems like you are trying to create an RC dog.

● a dog can become de-sensitized to stimulation if over done.

● dog must be trained on a command with a regular collar and checkcord first then overlayed to e-collar (association).

● it replaces a checkcord in the field. It shouldn't become an alternative form of communication for everything.

Do you hunt with your dog? Too much control takes the hunting instinct and prey drive out of the dog.

Just an opinion.

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Sharon
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Re: Ruining A Dog With E Collar

Post by Sharon » Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:32 pm

aulrich wrote:+1 to finding a proper training program, personally I used the one on the George Hickox Pointing dog DVD. In general it follows the standard teach, enforce and re-enforce progression. One thing I liked about it was it’s not about 50,000 volts of compliance.

The teach phase was very open and on my next dog I will do clicker training

The enforce stage I think the key to the enforce stage is that the dog has next to no chance to fail and get confused. As an example Hickox starts with the kennel command when we started to enforce on that command we had the dog on two cc’s with one of them running through the kennel when I pressed the button for the first time my son gently pulled him into the kennel and i turned off the pressure the moment the paw hit plastic. There was no way the dog was not going into the kennel and it really only took a few repetitions and we could get rid of the check cords. There are stages to the enforce phase as well.

And then the re-enforce stage you do both use positive on compliance and correction as needed

As you work through the various commands each command comes faster. Heel was the last command in the sequence and 15 minutes with an e-collar did what 18 months of everything else didn’t.

An e-collar is a very effective tool and really not that hard to learn to use, but it is not instant obedience in a box.
Not to get off topic but I use clicker training in the house - works great. Still must transition to something else though when the dog is 200 + yards from you in the field( whistle or e collar).

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Re: Ruining A Dog With E Collar

Post by whiteapino254 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:33 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:It almost seems like you are trying to create an RC dog.

● a dog can become de-sensitized to stimulation if over done.

● dog must be trained on a command with a regular collar and checkcord first then overlayed to e-collar (association).

● it replaces a checkcord in the field. It shouldn't become an alternative form of communication for everything.

Do you hunt with your dog? Too much control takes the hunting instinct and prey drive out of the dog.

Just an opinion.
Yes I plan too! Living in Vegas it has been a little difficult to get birds. Plus this is my first dog ive ever trained and haven't had a dog since a child. Finally found someone from this forum who met with me and brought wild caught birds and we did a plant with 4 of them and her drive and confidence spiked now at every park and parking lot if she sees a bird she locks. I exercise my dog every day weather its a hike through the desert or at a park or playing at a dog park. I made sure if I was going to own a high energy dog I let it be out. i take her everywhere I go except work. Plus its starting to warm up and snakes are active. my neighbor just started raising quail so my access to birds will be much easier next month so the amount of birds she will interact with will be higher. Ive only had her 4 months, Plan to start teaching the gun soon with the gentlemen who has started helping me with the birds. Im just trying to get this basic obedience stuff down pack. I thought I had it down but looks like I need to take a few steps back. This weekend should help as we are going camping so letting her have fun see the wilderness and chase wild birds. since there are more in the mountains then down in the city.

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Re: Ruining A Dog With E Collar

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:22 pm

whiteapino254 wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:It almost seems like you are trying to create an RC dog.

● a dog can become de-sensitized to stimulation if over done.

● dog must be trained on a command with a regular collar and checkcord first then overlayed to e-collar (association).

● it replaces a checkcord in the field. It shouldn't become an alternative form of communication for everything.

Do you hunt with your dog? Too much control takes the hunting instinct and prey drive out of the dog.

Just an opinion.
That's good to hear...I wish you the best. Take your time and be patient.

Yes I plan too! Living in Vegas it has been a little difficult to get birds. Plus this is my first dog ive ever trained and haven't had a dog since a child. Finally found someone from this forum who met with me and brought wild caught birds and we did a plant with 4 of them and her drive and confidence spiked now at every park and parking lot if she sees a bird she locks. I exercise my dog every day weather its a hike through the desert or at a park or playing at a dog park. I made sure if I was going to own a high energy dog I let it be out. i take her everywhere I go except work. Plus its starting to warm up and snakes are active. my neighbor just started raising quail so my access to birds will be much easier next month so the amount of birds she will interact with will be higher. Ive only had her 4 months, Plan to start teaching the gun soon with the gentlemen who has started helping me with the birds. Im just trying to get this basic obedience stuff down pack. I thought I had it down but looks like I need to take a few steps back. This weekend should help as we are going camping so letting her have fun see the wilderness and chase wild birds. since there are more in the mountains then down in the city.

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Re: Ruining A Dog With E Collar

Post by mnaj_springer » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:43 pm

7 months old? Lighten up! This is a puppy!

Go get a program (a book or a video). Watch it. Read it. Rinse and repeat until you know it front to back. Then maybe you can start collar conditioning.

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Re: Ruining A Dog With E Collar

Post by setterpoint » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:27 pm

there has been a many good dog ruint by e collar use in the wrong way around birds you get a blinker some cant be fixed my best abvise is only use e collar when dog knows what command is i have seen people try and use it when the dog dont know what it is being ask to do and the user getting mad because the dog wont do it start out like the dog is a kid in first grade and dont expect six grade work

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whiteapino254
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Ruining A Dog With E Collar

Post by whiteapino254 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:42 pm

Thank you everyone for your input and advice. I will be taking in everything you guys have said. I hope this post also finds other beginners well! Hard to remember to take it easy since she's a pup. Also I need to stay patient. One thing I have made sure to do is avoid using in frustration that's why I would not use it when frustrated and stop the collar. I have not used it around birds at all and won't until she is good without them.


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Re: Ruining A Dog With E Collar

Post by Born2Run » Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:54 am

You can really confuse a dog with an e-collar. so first, Teach your pup the command by using a leash, patience and normal tone of voice. Use the e-collare after he already KNOWS the command. For example if you are teaching heel, keep the dog close to you, always step off on left foot and say heel, if he starts to go forward past you, pull back quickly, you must do it the instant he starts to go away. if he takes a few steps by your side without pulling, give a treat and praise. Keep doing that until he is walking by your side without pulling about 75-80% of the time. Don't use an e-collar until the dog knows the command 75-80% of the time. You will confuse him as he won't know why he is getting corrected. This is the most common mistake with e-collar use. It is suppose to be used for reinforcing a command the dog already knows. This has probably been written already in other posts. Get a good basic obedience book if this is your first experience training a dog. Training with birds and such is more complex, so learn to train obedience first. I hope this helps, it's always hard with your first dog, so get help early from a professional if your puppy shows signs of regression or shutting down.

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