SAD but TRUE

CLAVEYRIVERCURS
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SAD but TRUE

Post by CLAVEYRIVERCURS » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:25 am

I just started on facebook and signed up to any and all working dog pages , Stock dogs , Gun dogs , Hound dogs, Cur, ect. The sad part is more so in the stock and Gun dog breeds. The number of people that not only own them but that are breeding them, that never use them for what they are. You see it every year, what ever dog wins the big show everyone has to have one. I don't know why people are like that but you see it all around us. How can someone take a dog that is breed to work and make it live in a crate in a apartment and think your doing right by the dog taking it for a walk around the block when you have the time. SAD BUT TRUE just had to get that off my chest . What is your stand on this ?

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by mask » Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:38 am

Your point is well taken. You may not find many on here who agree but that is the way it goes.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by Gertie » Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:24 pm

Some people are greedy, unethical, and their love of a breed only goes as far as it will supplement their income. Sad but true is right. I completely agree with you. Thankfully there are still some good breeders out there and they will be there with good quality lines when the frenzy of the "breed du jour" calms down. Not withstanding what these morons will do to the health of the breed as far as putting less than desirable stock out there only to be bred again for even less desirable stock and on we go, the saddest part will be all the dogs in shelters or stuck losing their minds in some crate or on a tie-out being subjected to who knows what. I hate it.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by Firelight » Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:01 pm

Sad but true also is that some folks posture themselves as hunters or trialers, but in reality they haven't set food afield within the lifespan of the dogs they are breeding...and breeding....and breeding. Just because someone used to hunt/trial and the ancestors of your dogs used to hunt/trial, IMO that doesn't mean your current dogs merit breeding. (Unless, of course, someone else is hunting/trialing them for you.)

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by mnaj_springer » Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:42 pm

To the OP, I think you have some good points but careful with Facebook. It doesn't give you the full picture, ever.

Lots of people own working and sporting breeds that never use them for what they were originally bred to do, but that doesn't mean the dogs are not physically and mentally engaged. It's my opinion that those are qualified dog owners, specifically high energy dogs.

That being said, people breeding dogs for a quick buck are acting unethically, and I see your point.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:48 pm

CLAVEYRIVERCURS wrote:I just started on facebook and signed up to any and all working dog pages , Stock dogs , Gun dogs , Hound dogs, Cur, ect. The sad part is more so in the stock and Gun dog breeds. The number of people that not only own them but that are breeding them, that never use them for what they are. You see it every year, what ever dog wins the big show everyone has to have one. I don't know why people are like that but you see it all around us. How can someone take a dog that is breed to work and make it live in a crate in a apartment and think your doing right by the dog taking it for a walk around the block when you have the time. SAD BUT TRUE just had to get that off my chest . What is your stand on this ?
I look at people who are bred to work & hunt for food but they seem to adjust quite well to welfare, cities, and apartments. I am not sure that an animal is bred to want to do any particular thing but rather they are bred with the ability to perform if the opportunity presents itself. I have had sporting dogs that seemed happy as a farm dog and there sure are a lot of every breed doing all sorts of things and are happy as long as they are fed and loved. Dogs are a social animal and not a tool that are made for a single purpose though most were originally bred for the physical qualities that allowed them to be good at a specific activity.

Ezzy

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:33 pm

I have a little different perspective than some. Ezzy said most of it.

I have had bird dogs all my life. I hunted them and hunted them hard in my youth and through middle age, but have slowed down some with the hunting. I started field trialing about 15-20 years ago and still do that, but again. not as aggressively as I used to.

However, no matter how hard and how often I hunted and later on how much I trialed and trained...the dogs still spent the largest part of their lives hanging out in the back yard with us as part of the family. Their place as a part of the family always was just as important as their ability in the field...to me at least. Most often I was blessed with both...a dog that was all I needed and could ask for as a hunter, and a good family pet.

To me, as long as the dog is well cared for and is happy, that is about all they really need. The rest is gravy. They are very adaptable.

I have a dog that is ten years old. She has a few trial placements, but she is not a good hunting dog. She is lazy and prefers to follow her bracemate around, be it at a trial or when hunting, and is content to back. However she is the sweetest, gentlest thing on 4 feet. If the AKC had a "cuddle" event, she would be an open cuddle champion. If you lay down, she sill come over, snuggle into you and stay there for as long as you want. She absolutely loves to be loved. She ALWAYS has time to get petted.

I'm absolutely fine with that. Have been for a long time. Brownie is special..in her own way, even though she is a bust as a bird dog.

I don't care if the dog is out of the latest and greatest whizbang champion be it bird dog or retriever or flusher. Most folks that get these dogs do not use them to anywhere near their capabilities in the field...and that is just fine...because the dog is happy and the owner is happy. That is really all that is necessary.

RayG

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by CLAVEYRIVERCURS » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:14 pm

So what you two last posters are saying is that you will be ok with the breeds you love , Evolve in to none hunting dogs ? I'm not talking about dogs that hunt 3 months of the year and then are pets the rest of the year. Which if that is all a guy can do it better then never being hunted. Understand that people are breeding these dogs that are never hunted. There are breeds of none hunting dogs that make great lap dogs.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by twistedoak » Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:46 pm

how long is your hunting season?
our season is only 4 1/2 months long .
if hunting preserves you can get another month and a half?
now of course nobody is gonna hunt every day for 5-6 months ,unless of course your in the minority a train or hunt for a living

I hunted fairly often this last year.
i put in 39 days in the field with my dog over a 5-6 month season
that leaves 10 1/2 months out of the year that my dog is mostly at home being a family dog

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by Max2 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:21 am

Ezzzy I think this is the first time since I have been a member that what you have stated makes perfect sense to me.
You hit it spot on.
Ray G ~ I enjoyed the follow up a lot of great points.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by cjhills » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:32 am

This subject was hashed over a few posts back. It is mostly a few people trying to promote their agenda. The idea that there will be a spike in GSP breeders because of the win a the Westminster dog show is baloney. A gsp won in 2004, or there about, it was not a issue. There are good buyers and good breeders in all walks of life it is up to the breeders to try to sort out the right ones. Very few of the Family/ hunting dogs we breed will be bred. Some of the worst buyers are hunters that consider their dog a tool with which to get birds. Some of the most abused dogs belong to dog training wannabes, who have no clue and ruin well bred dogs with e-collars and choke chains and other tools that are abusive in the wrong hands. You can go do North Dakota in September and pick up washouts that are left behind to live or die. Many trial and hunting dogs do not have a hip x-ray in their pedigree.
Some of you ask why a person would want a hunting bred dog if they do not hunt. The fact of the matter is that the hunting breeds from the right bloodlines make very good family dogs. They are good looking, athletic dogs with great personalities and are capable of competing in many events. If you only breed dogs for hunters you will either have puppies you can not sell or people will tell you they are hunters that are not.
I must be getting old because I do agree with Ezzy more and more.
So, do what you want. But your ethics are not mine and mine are not yours. It is my responsibility to my puppies to find them the best home I can and that is what I plan to do. And Oh, by the way I do like to make a little money on them...........Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by Vision » Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:16 am

CLAVEYRIVERCURS wrote:I just started on facebook and signed up to any and all working dog pages , Stock dogs , Gun dogs , Hound dogs, Cur, ect. The sad part is more so in the stock and Gun dog breeds. The number of people that not only own them but that are breeding them, that never use them for what they are. You see it every year, what ever dog wins the big show everyone has to have one. I don't know why people are like that but you see it all around us. How can someone take a dog that is breed to work and make it live in a crate in a apartment and think your doing right by the dog taking it for a walk around the block when you have the time. SAD BUT TRUE just had to get that off my chest . What is your stand on this ?

What's your solution?

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:11 am

CLAVEYRIVERCURS wrote:So what you two last posters are saying is that you will be ok with the breeds you love , Evolve in to none hunting dogs ? I'm not talking about dogs that hunt 3 months of the year and then are pets the rest of the year. Which if that is all a guy can do it better then never being hunted. Understand that people are breeding these dogs that are never hunted. There are breeds of none hunting dogs that make great lap dogs.

My goodness...you have just made a logical jump that is from here to the moon.

I never said...or intimated anything of the sort.

The fact of the matter is that as long as there are birds to be hunted in the uplands, there will be dogs to seek them. as long as there are waterfowl to be shot, there will be dogs to retrieve them. People interested in those pursuits will see to that.

Bird dogs have been heavily selected and bred specifically to excel at those tasks, especially over the last two to three hundred years. Retrievers...much the same. That has resulted in some amazing dogs with incredible levels of talent and ability. Folks that hunt and trial and test their dogs will keep those levels high and continue to expand the range of those talents and abilities, because that is what people do. They want better...and better.

I would assume that as long as there are sheep to herd and stock to move, there will be dogs to do those tasks as well. The people that wish to herd sheep and move livestock will see to that also, if mechanization, robotics and such does not supplant and replace the dog.

However, when the reason for the a breeds development into a specialist disappears, those members of the breed that exhibit the highest degree of that specialization will diminish and eventually disappear. That is the way that it is.

Dogs have evolved, along with man, for a couple hundred thousand years, as far as we can tell. So far they have proved themselves pretty adaptable. When and if there are no birds to hunt or retrieve, I am pretty sure those breeds of dogs will evolve along a different path and do just fine in their new roles. Most bird dogs and retrievers do, in fact, make VERY good companion dogs already, because a huge portion of their selective breeding has been directed toward an increased and improved level of cooperation with their human partner.

I ain't worried about it for a couple of reasons, but mostly because if there ain't no birds to hunt...who cares? And of course I will be worm food by then.

RayG

PS - In the distant future, when someone is walking one of those non- functional bird dogs along a path and the dog sees or smells something that kicks in a long forgotten response and the dog locks up, tight as a tick...that owner might just be excited enough by what they just saw, to pursue it and develop it. :)

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by CLAVEYRIVERCURS » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:26 am

LOL, I'm sorry my bad I thought I posted this on a Gun dog forum . For those of you that take pride in what your dog is breed for and promote it , Hats off to you.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by cjhills » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:50 am

CLAVEYRIVERCURS wrote:LOL, I'm sorry my bad I thought I posted this on a Gun dog forum . For those of you that take pride in what your dog is breed for and promote it , Hats off to you.
I guess if you feel that gun dogs can only be gun dogs then this is not a Gun Dog Forum. Many of the members on this forum think of their dog as a member of their family twelve months of the year and as gun dogs in the bird seasons. That works for most members and their dogs....................Cj

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by CLAVEYRIVERCURS » Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:05 am

cjhills wrote:
CLAVEYRIVERCURS wrote:LOL, I'm sorry my bad I thought I posted this on a Gun dog forum . For those of you that take pride in what your dog is breed for and promote it , Hats off to you.
I guess if you feel that gun dogs can only be gun dogs then this is not a Gun Dog Forum. Many of the members on this forum think of their dog as a member of their family twelve months of the year and as gun dogs in the bird seasons. That works for most members and their dogs....................Cj
That is NOT what I'm saying. What I am saying is Why would a person take a dog that is breed to hunt , and never hunt it but have no problem breeding them. I no longer hunt bird dogs. For the last 20 plus years I have hunted Tree dogs. Last year I logged 168 days hunting 3 states( I know I'm a blessed to get to hunt as much as I do, And this is not about how many day you hunt . But about dogs that never get to hunt) if I'm not hunting, the dogs are exercised 3 days a week with 5-6 mile runs here on the ranch. And yes mine are family members as well, two are at my feet right now and one is in bed with my woman, the others are outside running around right now and will get their house time later.

What I'm saying is a dog that is breed to hunt should be hunted . Yes it can be your buddy as well. But to take any dog that was breed to perform , To take that away from the dog is wrong. Look at it this way what if someone put you in jail just because they wanted to, You'll get 3 hot meals a bed buddys to play cards with TV to watch and so on , Sound like fun to you ?

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:20 am

cjhills wrote:
CLAVEYRIVERCURS wrote:LOL, I'm sorry my bad I thought I posted this on a Gun dog forum . For those of you that take pride in what your dog is breed for and promote it , Hats off to you.
I guess if you feel that gun dogs can only be gun dogs then this is not a Gun Dog Forum. Many of the members on this forum think of their dog as a member of their family twelve months of the year and as gun dogs in the bird seasons. That works for most members and their dogs....................Cj
Don't try to write everyone that doesn't agree with you off as not quite as dedicated as you, because it just isn't true. Probably many of us saw things like you do in the beginning but with experience and a broader view as we got older have progressed to a clearer way of thinking. Listen to what we are saying and try to understand where we are coming from. Our position is not just to be disagreeable but rather is the result of what we have learned. Not a one of us are telling you to agree but we are saying that time will change you as it has most everybody and your opinion in 30 years will be different than it is today.

Remember, you are the one that asked for our opinion and then when it wasn't what you wanted to hear you tried to insult us as not being gundog enthusiast. Believe it or not, you as well as us have much the same goals but most of us have found that our dogs have a much more broad ability and responsibility than just being a gundog that spends most of it's life in a kennel because it only has one purpose in life. My dogs, at least , are much better than that.

Ezzy

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:44 am

CLAVEYRIVERCURS wrote:
cjhills wrote:
CLAVEYRIVERCURS wrote:LOL, I'm sorry my bad I thought I posted this on a Gun dog forum . For those of you that take pride in what your dog is breed for and promote it , Hats off to you.
I guess if you feel that gun dogs can only be gun dogs then this is not a Gun Dog Forum. Many of the members on this forum think of their dog as a member of their family twelve months of the year and as gun dogs in the bird seasons. That works for most members and their dogs....................Cj
That is NOT what I'm saying. What I am saying is Why would a person take a dog that is breed to hunt , and never hunt it but have no problem breeding them. I no longer hunt bird dogs. For the last 20 plus years I have hunted Tree dogs. Last year I logged 168 days hunting 3 states( I know I'm a blessed to get to hunt as much as I do, And this is not about how many day you hunt . But about dogs that never get to hunt) if I'm not hunting, the dogs are exercised 3 days a week with 5-6 mile runs here on the ranch. And yes mine are family members as well, two are at my feet right now and one is in bed with my woman, the others are outside running around right now and will get their house time later.

What I'm saying is a dog that is breed to hunt should be hunted . Yes it can be your buddy as well. But to take any dog that was breed to perform , To take that away from the dog is wrong. Look at it this way what if someone put you in jail just because they wanted to, You'll get 3 hot meals a bed buddys to play cards with TV to watch and so on , Sound like fun to you ?
Again you are going off into the deep.

First that WAS and IS what you were saying and what you continue to say. That is your opinion and that is fine. I do not agree with your opinion and have a different one. That is also fine... even though it does not agree with your opinion.

I agree with you that a dog that is bred to hunt should be hunted. BUT...that does not mean all dogs that are bred to hunt MUST be hunted. If a dog was bred to hunt and becomes a sled dog or a skijourning partner...just what is wrong with that? In MY opinion... absolutely nothing at all.

As far as your jail analogy, let's examine that a bit. Let's suppose you were born in jail, grew up in jail and everyone you know is in jail. If you do not know any better or any different ...that ain't so bad. Think about it. If the dog never knew what it was like to run and hunt...why would it miss it?

In my world, the very best bird dogs lead a VERY hard, spartan existence They live, for all intents and purposes, in a smallish crate in the back of a horse trailer, for six to seven months of the year. They get schlepped all over the country in the back of that horse trailer. They get let out of that crate twice a day and are put on a two foot long chain to relieve themselves and get fed. Then....back in the box. tThey are subject to strict discipline and will be corrected for minor, even miniscule deviations from what is demanded of them in the field. They are trained to perform at a level that approaches perfection...and perfection is what is expected as the routine.

They get exercised every other day, on average. The rest of the time they are in a crate or on a short chain. The best they can hope for is a few kind words from their handler and a pat on the head every now and then. But the best of them live and breathe to find birds, and all the rest is irrelevant.

The bird dog that doesn't cut the mustard, by way of comparison, often gets to sit on a couch somewhere, soaking up attention from everyone around them. It gets to go hunting a few times a year and if it screws up...no big deal.

What I just described is what occurs the real world of competitive bird dog field trialing. The dogs that compete are some of the VERY finest dogs in the breed, as far as hunting is concerned.

How does that reality stack up with your jail analogy? To me, it sounds like the washout just might be the one that got the brass ring.

RayG

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by Jägermeister » Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:25 am

I somewhat agree. I have an apartment and my dog spends more time in the field hunting wild birds than most people. I think the apartment factor holds me more accountable to keep him active even in the off season. Nothing wrong with people who don't hunt their hunting breed dog. There are plenty of hunters who put their dog in the pen in the backyard and forget about them till next season. But I understand your point.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by displaced_texan » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:54 pm

The OP is overreacting to a non existent problem. There are probably more non performance labs than any other currently active working breed.

How hard is it to find a lab that can hunt?
Max2 wrote:Ezzzy I think this is the first time since I have been a member that what you have stated makes perfect sense to me.
You hit it spot on.
Ray G ~ I enjoyed the follow up a lot of great points.
He's slipping. I've been agreeing with him a lot lately.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by greg jacobs » Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:12 pm

rsz_20160417_112229-1-1.jpg
rsz_20160417_143958-1.jpg
They really love to hunt.
They really enjoy life all year.
They add a lot to our lives all year round.

I really like to see dogs lived with year round.
Hate to see dogs on chains or caged for months on end.
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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by Max2 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:09 am

Very true. & I would bet yes.

RayG

PS - In the distant future, when someone is walking one of those non- functional bird dogs along a path and the dog sees or smells something that kicks in a long forgotten response and the dog locks up, tight as a tick...that owner might just be excited enough by what they just saw, to pursue it and develop it. :)[/quote]

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by jczv » Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:16 am

These threads seem to always drift around two points:

Dogs that aren't being used for their intended purpose. This has been beaten to death at this point. I know as many 'serious hunters' who because of 1,000 different hunting interests there dogs barely get out of the kennel as non-hunters who work extensively with their dogs.

The other is that breeds are being ruined by people who don't care about their 'intended purpose'. I used to believe this because I saw so many dogs with issues in some of the breeds with large amounts of non-hunting breeders. But in the end I've come around to who cares that somebody is just breeding dogs for looks, confirmation, agility, whatever. I'm not going to buy their puppies. I'm going to look for dogs with either titles and a hunting pedigree or from someone I trust to know what to look for in a hunting / trialing dog. Coming from that angle, someone who hunts the heck out of their mediocre hunting dogs and breeds them is more likely to negatively impact the kind of dogs I"m looking for then the non-hunting breeding who I'm not even going to look at. In the end as long as there are enough breeders in a particular breed focused on hunting performance and not kennel blind then the breed is going to improve. Those people aren't going to be breeding to the dogs from lines that haven't proven themselves either. In some cases this has caused a divergence in some breeds (weims, akc setters etc). OK again so what?

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by DougB » Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:49 am

We are becoming an urban nation. Those of us who hunt , for the most part, hunt a few months a year. In between, you have a high energy dog building up a need to do something to stay sane and healthy. Rally work, scent training, jogging, dock diving, pulling contests, obedience work, search and rescue, service training, all can keep a dog sane. Labs are a great dog for hunting. They also are great guide dogs, search and rescue dogs, lawn furniture. Hunting dogs are bred to be obedient, eager, healthy, and friendly. Makes them great pets.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by MNTonester » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:01 am

How can someone take a dog that is breed to work and make it live in a crate in a apartment and think your doing right by the dog taking it for a walk around the block when you have the time. SAD BUT TRUE just had to get that off my chest . What is your stand on this ?
Given the circumstances you describe; I totally agree

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:11 am

MNTonester wrote:
How can someone take a dog that is breed to work and make it live in a crate in a apartment and think your doing right by the dog taking it for a walk around the block when you have the time. SAD BUT TRUE just had to get that off my chest . What is your stand on this ?
Given the circumstances you describe; I totally agree
I totally agree too. Just luckily that scenario doesn't happen often but it would be just as bad for any dog. It is rare that anyone buys a dog and makes it live in a crate thank God. I am not quite sure why we are designating and apartment as it is just as bad for house or farm dwellers. That is one of the things that bothers me when people say they wouldn't leave a dog in an outside kennel with a run. Anything less is not good.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by Gertie » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:05 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
MNTonester wrote:
How can someone take a dog that is breed to work and make it live in a crate in a apartment and think your doing right by the dog taking it for a walk around the block when you have the time. SAD BUT TRUE just had to get that off my chest . What is your stand on this ?
Given the circumstances you describe; I totally agree
I totally agree too. Just luckily that scenario doesn't happen often but it would be just as bad for any dog. It is rare that anyone buys a dog and makes it live in a crate thank God. I am not quite sure why we are designating and apartment as it is just as bad for house or farm dwellers. That is one of the things that bothers me when people say they wouldn't leave a dog in an outside kennel with a run. Anything less is not good.
Without even trying hard I can think of two dogs, one DD and one setter, that spend their entire day in a crate while their owners are at work. These dogs are never hunted and their only exercise is an occasional walk to the nearest park to play "chuck-it". The DD actually had to be treated for "bed sores" and has hip issues at 3 years old from being stuck in those dang crates. Those people had no business buying those dogs and the breeders had no business breeding those litters if that's the best they could do for placing pups.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:23 pm

Gertie wrote:

I totally agree too. Just luckily that scenario doesn't happen often but it would be just as bad for any dog. It is rare that anyone buys a dog and makes it live in a crate thank God. I am not quite sure why we are designating and apartment as it is just as bad for house or farm dwellers. That is one of the things that bothers me when people say they wouldn't leave a dog in an outside kennel with a run. Anything less is not good.
Without even trying hard I can think of two dogs, one DD and one setter, that spend their entire day in a crate while their owners are at work. These dogs are never hunted and their only exercise is an occasional walk to the nearest park to play "chuck-it". The DD actually had to be treated for "bed sores" and has hip issues at 3 years old from being stuck in those dang crates. Those people had no business buying those dogs and the breeders had no business breeding those litters if that's the best they could do for placing pups.
I also can name a couple of dozen dogs that spend their whole life in a small enclosed pen with the exception of a few days in the field in the fall. Neither your or my example has much to do with how most dogs are cared for so they have little to do with our selection of owners. And the thing is we have little control of other peoples decisions in this area as it should be and these isolated examples have nothing to do with the thousands upon thousands that treat their pets really well. And none of this means we shouldn't try to sort out bad owners but in all honesty we just are unable to do a good job of it and I am sure when we try too hard we deny a lot of good people from having a pup compared to the one or two we may delay for a few days.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by Steve007 » Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:50 pm

DougB wrote:We are becoming an urban nation. Those of us who hunt , for the most part, hunt a few months a year. In between, you have a high energy dog building up a need to do something to stay sane and healthy. Rally work, scent training, jogging, dock diving, pulling contests, obedience work, search and rescue, service training, all can keep a dog sane. Labs are a great dog for hunting. They also are great guide dogs, search and rescue dogs, lawn furniture. Hunting dogs are bred to be obedient, eager, healthy, and friendly. Makes them great pets.

Good post. Dead accurate. And the top competition obedience dogs in the world are (usually ) Goldens or Border Collies. Their owners spend more time working with them on a consistent daily basis than any purely gun dog owner. They don't (usually) hunt or herd. But they are happy and fulfilled working dogs. What's wrong with that?

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by Gertie » Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:45 pm

Steve007 wrote:
DougB wrote:We are becoming an urban nation. Those of us who hunt , for the most part, hunt a few months a year. In between, you have a high energy dog building up a need to do something to stay sane and healthy. Rally work, scent training, jogging, dock diving, pulling contests, obedience work, search and rescue, service training, all can keep a dog sane. Labs are a great dog for hunting. They also are great guide dogs, search and rescue dogs, lawn furniture. Hunting dogs are bred to be obedient, eager, healthy, and friendly. Makes them great pets.

Good post. Dead accurate. And the top competition obedience dogs in the world are (usually ) Goldens or Border Collies. Their owners spend more time working with them on a consistent daily basis than any purely gun dog owner. They don't (usually) hunt or herd. But they are happy and fulfilled working dogs. What's wrong with that?
Not a thing if you don't care about the integrity of the breed. Pretty soon they're just "pets" and not bird dogs. Similar to fate of good working border collies and field capable goldens.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by Steve007 » Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:47 pm

Gertie wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
DougB wrote:We are becoming an urban nation. Those of us who hunt , for the most part, hunt a few months a year. In between, you have a high energy dog building up a need to do something to stay sane and healthy. Rally work, scent training, jogging, dock diving, pulling contests, obedience work, search and rescue, service training, all can keep a dog sane. Labs are a great dog for hunting. They also are great guide dogs, search and rescue dogs, lawn furniture. Hunting dogs are bred to be obedient, eager, healthy, and friendly. Makes them great pets.

Good post. Dead accurate. And the top competition obedience dogs in the world are (usually ) Goldens or Border Collies. Their owners spend more time working with them on a consistent daily basis than any purely gun dog owner. They don't (usually) hunt or herd. But they are happy and fulfilled working dogs. What's wrong with that?
Not a thing if you don't care about the integrity of the breed. Pretty soon they're just "pets" and not bird dogs. Similar to fate of good working border collies and field capable goldens.

Hey, good point. I guess we should ban them from being obedience dogs or seeing eye dogs or search-and-rescue or conformation dogs or service dogs or anything Doug8 mentions.

But don't worry. I know your post was just a joke. You're a funny guy!

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by Gertie » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:07 pm

Nope. Wasn't a joke and I'm not a guy.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by displaced_texan » Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:11 pm

As long as there are people who care about performance there will be performance dogs.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by Gertie » Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:22 pm

displaced_texan wrote:As long as there are people who care about performance there will be performance dogs.
And thank goodness for that!

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by CLAVEYRIVERCURS » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:24 pm

Just curious , How many of you that think it's ok for a hunting dog to go to a non-hunting home are buying their next pup from one of these non-hunting homes. And when you say you would depending on pups blood line or if the Grandparent's hunted You just proved my point !

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by mnaj_springer » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:37 pm

CLAVEYRIVERCURS wrote:Just curious , How many of you that think it's ok for a hunting dog to go to a non-hunting home are buying their next pup from one of these non-hunting homes. And when you say you would depending on pups blood line or if the Grandparent's hunted You just proved my point !
Not everyone who buys a dog breeds them. I have two dogs. Two different hunting breeds, two dogs, both are bitches, both compete in HTs and both hunt 3 to 4 days a week in the fall, and neither will be bred ever. Am I wrong now because my hunting dogs that actually hunt don't get bred?

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by cjhills » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:03 pm

CLAVEYRIVERCURS wrote:Just curious , How many of you that think it's ok for a hunting dog to go to a non-hunting home are buying their next pup from one of these non-hunting homes. And when you say you would depending on pups blood line or if the Grandparent's hunted You just proved my point !
CLAVEYRIVERCURS wrote:Just curious , How many of you that think it's ok for a hunting dog to go to a non-hunting home are buying their next pup from one of these non-hunting homes. And when you say you would depending on pups blood line or if the Grandparent's hunted You just proved my point !
This thread just gets more ridiculous the longer it goes.
If I sell two pups, one to a hunter and one to a non-hunter is the hunters pup going to be a better breeding prospect because it has hunted.
The family dog buyers very rarely breed their dogs and are not going to hurt the breed.
The real bad guys are the specialized breeders who say they only breed to improve the breed. Which really means make the breed what I think it should be. funny thing is they charge for their puppies just like the dirty rotten scoundrels who are out to line their pockets. Also the total disregard for breed standards. big breeders ruin dog breeds not family pets...................Cj

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:45 pm

And many of the specialized breeders even cross breed and end up with a lot of mutts that work well for whatever purpose he uses them for and some of them get passed off as purebred and end up in someone's backyard and the people think they have a purebred. There are and always have been unscrupulous breeders of all ilk's, hunter's as well as non-hunters.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by CLAVEYRIVERCURS » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:47 pm

This thread just gets more ridiculous the longer it goes. (THEN WHY DO YOU KEEP COMING BACK TO IT ?? )

If I sell two pups, one to a hunter and one to a non-hunter is the hunters pup going to be a better breeding prospect because it has hunted. (YOU REALLY ASKED THAT ?)

The family dog buyers very rarely breed their dogs and are not going to hurt the breed.( SO AFTER THAT GOES ON FOR A FEW GENERATIONS , YOU WOULD STILL THINK THE SAME?)

The real bad guys are the specialized breeders who say they only breed to improve the breed. Which really means make the breed what I think it should be.(YOU MEAN A WELL BALANCED HUNTING DOG OR DID YOU MEAN THE PERFECT HOUSE DOG/LAP DOG ?)

funny thing is they charge for their puppies just like the dirty rotten scoundrels who are out to line their pockets. Also the total disregard for breed standards. big breeders ruin dog breeds not family pets...................Cj[/quote ( YOU MEAN THE ONE SELL HUNTING DOGS AS PETS ? DIRTY ROTTON SCOUNDREL? )

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by displaced_texan » Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:45 pm

I don't think it's ok for a hunting dog to go to a non hunting home. I know it is.

I have sold my pups at a discount to a non hunting home because I knew she would be loved and cared for by someone who would appreciate and enjoy her.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by cjhills » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:29 am

CLAVEYRIVERCURS wrote:This thread just gets more ridiculous the longer it goes. (THEN WHY DO YOU KEEP COMING BACK TO IT ?? )

If I sell two pups, one to a hunter and one to a non-hunter is the hunters pup going to be a better breeding prospect because it has hunted. (YOU REALLY ASKED THAT ?)

The family dog buyers very rarely breed their dogs and are not going to hurt the breed.( SO AFTER THAT GOES ON FOR A FEW GENERATIONS , YOU WOULD STILL THINK THE SAME?)

The real bad guys are the specialized breeders who say they only breed to improve the breed. Which really means make the breed what I think it should be.(YOU MEAN A WELL BALANCED HUNTING DOG OR DID YOU MEAN THE PERFECT HOUSE DOG/LAP DOG ?)

funny thing is they charge for their puppies just like the dirty rotten scoundrels who are out to line their pockets. Also the total disregard for breed standards. big breeders ruin dog breeds not family pets...................Cj[/quote ( YOU MEAN THE ONE SELL HUNTING DOGS AS PETS ? DIRTY ROTTON SCOUNDREL? )
Answering questions with questions. Hmm. Here are some questions for you.
Interesting that Gertie should mention Border Collies and Goldens. The two that you say you have in your profile.
Is it wrong to breed Goldens as therapy and guide dogs because they are one of the best suited breeds for it?? How about Border Collies for agility or herding a few ducks in herding tests? Is a field trial dog who never has a bird shot over him and never gets a retrieve, because he might learn to break on the shot, really a bird dog? As Ezzy Says, is crossing with pointer blood ,to get a dog that will run farther and faster to compete in trials, really improving the breed? Is ignoring breed standards in the name of improving the dogs the right thing to do? How about breeding 50 yard hunt test dogs and NAVHDA dogs to make it easy to pass the tests?
We breed and sell family/bird dogs. They are well rounded naturally talented GSPs. My first dogs were purchased from some of the best linebreeders in the country. Most will hunt good enough for the average weekender with little or no training. Most all of our puppies are family dogs. I try to avoid hunters who will kennel the dog for a good part of the year. We discourage breeding but we do not put restrictions on the dogs. Very few of our buyers breed their dogs, but if they want to we work with them and make honest recommendations as to why they should or should not. Also help with picking a mate.
These very few buyers, maybe one out of a hundred, will have zero long term affect on the breed.
I do now and will continue to put my puppies in the best situation I can find for them. Hunting or not. We all guess wrong sometimes. In that case I take my puppies back with no questions asked and return their purchase price.
It does get me a bit upset when somebody tells me family dogs are doing damage to my chosen breed.
People like the versatile breeds because they are versatile. specializing hurts the breed
Thank........................Cj

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by Steve007 » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:28 am

Seems as though the man with the curs and 12 posts just got on here to rant about self-evident foolishness and to display his uninformed and archaic (though not unfortunately rare) prejudices. Perhaps I am in error. But...

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:53 pm

I would just like to say that I found it interesting that a person who uses cur dogs, which are essentially mongrels, has a whole lot of negative things to say about folks who breed purebred dog breeds.

I knew zilch about cur dogs, so I did some internet searching, to educate myself. I had no idea there were THAT many kinds of cur dogs and that they tended to "specialize" in what kind of game they pursued.

I knew a tad about hounds, mostly beagles, and that Walkers, Plotts and such, were breeds of hounds which coon hunters used...but that was about the extent of my hound or treeing dog knowledge.

I found it interesting. Confusing, since I do not participate in that type of sport... but interesting nevertheless.

RayG

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by cjhills » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:21 pm

This is also the same guy who advocates crossbreeding GSPs with hounds to hunt mountain lions. how is that for maintaining the integrity of the breed..................Cj

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by ulmer86 » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:56 pm

When I was reading all the post made me think of when I was looking for my first pointer. seemed to me there was 3 groups. The cheaper pups that had little to no hunting, test, trial ect.. back round more or less family pets. Then the $500+ that had hunting back rounds. some one or a few in the past 3 generations had some sort of title. Then you have the $1000+ that is stacked with generations that have titles hunting back around ect.

So the way I look at it is the ones that just want a breed just because they do or a nice weather weekend hunter that just want to say they have a gun dog are going to get the cheap ones that most average hunters would look away form any ways and go to a good home that the dog could care less if it hunts or not

The 500$+ your average hunter that wants a good dog that has a lot of natural ability and with a little work more serious hunter can come out will a dog that works very well for them or test and trial them

The $1000+ your extreme hunters, people that are serious about test, trials. plan on breeding high quality dogs.

Im not saying one dog or person cant jump form one group to the other just that the average person that wants a breed just to have it isn't going to shell out the cash for a high class hunting, test, trial dog when they can get them a lot cheaper some place different so for the most part good quality dogs are going to homes that use them for what there bread for and in turn wont turn a entire breed to junk just my 2cents

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by CLAVEYRIVERCURS » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:33 pm

cjhills wrote:This is also the same guy who advocates crossbreeding GSPs with hounds to hunt mountain lions. how is that for maintaining the integrity of the breed..................Cj

You need to go back to school and learn to read . I don't have any Golden's and Were did I say I breed or tell anyone to cross GSP's ? Yes I own a GSP cross I am not the one that made the cross. Yes I own border's and they WORK here on the ranch for their room and board. I guess I should of call this topic THE TRUTH HURTS by how defensive you pet owner are getting . Funny thing is no one answered the question , If they will be buying their next Gundog pup from a non-hunting home.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by mnaj_springer » Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:11 pm

CLAVEYRIVERCURS wrote:
cjhills wrote:This is also the same guy who advocates crossbreeding GSPs with hounds to hunt mountain lions. how is that for maintaining the integrity of the breed..................Cj

You need to go back to school and learn to read . I don't have any Golden's and Were did I say I breed or tell anyone to cross GSP's ? Yes I own a GSP cross I am not the one that made the cross. Yes I own border's and they WORK here on the ranch for their room and board. I guess I should of call this topic THE TRUTH HURTS by how defensive you pet owner are getting . Funny thing is no one answered the question , If they will be buying their next Gundog pup from a non-hunting home.
I did respond to this, but you must've missed it.

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:25 pm

CLAVEYRIVERCURS wrote:
cjhills wrote:This is also the same guy who advocates crossbreeding GSPs with hounds to hunt mountain lions. how is that for maintaining the integrity of the breed..................Cj

You need to go back to school and learn to read . I don't have any Golden's and Were did I say I breed or tell anyone to cross GSP's ? Yes I own a GSP cross I am not the one that made the cross. Yes I own border's and they WORK here on the ranch for their room and board. I guess I should of call this topic THE TRUTH HURTS by how defensive you pet owner are getting . Funny thing is no one answered the question , If they will be buying their next Gundog pup from a non-hunting home.
Didn't anyone ever tell you that you get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar? My oh my. Such vitriol.

Funny how it seems that the one who is getting nasty and defensive toward folks that breed, hunt and compete with purebred bird dogs...is a guy who breeds MUTTS and calls them working dogs. I have all the respect in the world for a dog that is good at its job...whatever that job might be. Dogs that hunt big cats or hogs definitely deserve respect. But they are still basically MUTTS that have been selected for that ability.

Soooo, Jeff 'ol buddy...where can I view the five generation pedigree on your dogs? I can post the 5 gen pedigree...with wins... on any of mine, including the pup I just bought, but I am pretty sure you wouldn't be interested.

Yes I buy my pups...for the simple reason that I can buy a far better pup than I can breed myself. THAT is one of the advantages of purebred dogs., especially purebred performance dogs like the pointing breeds.

Not a good idea to go to a gunfight with only a dull pocketknife.

RayG

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by displaced_texan » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:31 pm

CLAVEYRIVERCURS wrote:
cjhills wrote:This is also the same guy who advocates crossbreeding GSPs with hounds to hunt mountain lions. how is that for maintaining the integrity of the breed..................Cj

You need to go back to school and learn to read . I don't have any Golden's and Were did I say I breed or tell anyone to cross GSP's ? Yes I own a GSP cross I am not the one that made the cross. Yes I own border's and they WORK here on the ranch for their room and board. I guess I should of call this topic THE TRUTH HURTS by how defensive you pet owner are getting . Funny thing is no one answered the question , If they will be buying their next Gundog pup from a non-hunting home.
No matter how strongly you believe in your opinion, that doesn't prove it's truthfulness.

Just because I don't want a pup to hunt and trial with from a non working home doesn't mean that they are bad homes, or ruining the breeds

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Re: SAD but TRUE

Post by CLAVEYRIVERCURS » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:33 pm

Didn't anyone ever tell you that you get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar? My oh my. Such vitriol.

Funny how it seems that the one who is getting nasty and defensive toward folks that breed, hunt and compete with purebred bird dogs...is a guy who breeds MUTTS and calls them working dogs. I have all the respect in the world for a dog that is good at its job...whatever that job might be. Dogs that hunt big cats or hogs definitely deserve respect. But they are still basically MUTTS that have been selected for that ability.

Soooo, Jeff 'ol buddy...where can I view the five generation pedigree on your dogs? I can post the 5 gen pedigree...with wins... on any of mine, including the pup I just bought, but I am pretty sure you wouldn't be interested.

Yes I buy my pups...for the simple reason that I can buy a far better pup than I can breed myself. THAT is one of the advantages of purebred dogs., especially purebred performance dogs like the pointing breeds.

Not a good idea to go to a gunfight with only a dull pocketknife.

RayG[/quote]

I can show you 8 generations worth of this line of mutts that we have line breed. We have kept records from the start, it all traces back to 3 main dogs. As for the wins you would have to be willing to lace up your boots and walk to the bottom of a canyon to a tree with the game we are hunting that day, As I don't do trials So as for your purebred dog, Just so we all know maybe you can tell all of us which purebred dog just fell out of the sky one day ? That was developed with out the uses of two or more other breeds , That were developed using two or more breeds and so on til you trace all the way back to the wolf ? It's good that you are buying well breed dogs You can thank the men and Women that hunt hard for that.

And by the way the saying Is, You get more bee's with honey (not flies ) Your ol buddy JEFF EBERLE

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