Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

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seiowa
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Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by seiowa » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:06 pm

Well at least the mods/admins/powers that be didn't think I was a troll, because here I sit, with an active account and have got no reprimand.

First:

APOLOGIES to anyone with a pointer or anyone who's dog is more versatile than I think. You have to understand where I came from and how I was brought up. It was LABS LABS LABS LABS and nothing else is nearly as versatile or useful. It was pounded into my head that no other dog can retrieve worth a crap if it wasn't black yellow or brown. So PARDON ME for suggesting maybe pointer's aren't great retrievers. In my neck of the woods 70% of people hunted ducks/geese, upland, rabbits, and some even squirrels, and shed hunt with labs. "No need for any other dog" was a popular mantra around here for many years.

I know you could probably force fetch a billy goat as the procedure is applied the same across the board (or should be) but my question of "Can you FF a pointer" was more geared at can they take it? Labs and especially Chessy's you can judge their "intelligence" by the number of knots on their head. But I have heard from the guys who beat labs into my brain from age 4 that pointers might be too soft.

I have very limited TRUE bird dog experience. My knowledge of pointers and setters is essentially nil. Know a ton of (and about) labs, GSP, weims, versatiles. Not to mention hounds. But my bird dog knowledge is admittedly subpar especially compared to this board. So if I put my foot in my mouth or ask an obvious question, or one that is asked on here a lot, bear with me. I can promise you one thing on this board I will never come across as, is a know it all.

I want to jump into something new (pointers/bird dogs) expand my hobbies and hunting exeriences, and learn as much as I can. I am at a point in my life where I can afford the extra $$ to spend on a good dog, good food, vet bills, hunting trips, training, etc. But I JUST GOT to that point, so bear with me if I seem ignorant or obtuse, it is completely not my intention.

In my neck of the woods you don't go spouting off accusing someone of something the first time they open their mouth, that's for sure. Maybe a couple eye rolls and think about it until I make more of an idiot out of myself. But sorry if some of you were put off. Imagine your first post being responded to like a jack "bleep", troll, idiot, or imbecile. I apologize for ruffling feathers here.

SO TO REPHRASE:

I have lab/versatile/hound experience but none with pointers. I want one. From what I have heard (RIGHT OR WRONG ITS JUST WHAT I HEARD) if pointing breeds have a weakness it may be retrieving. How do you all combat this? Are some of them too soft where FF might be a struggle?

Also I want a SLOW dog. I have prefered my versatiles to be close workers, I like slower beagles with a lot of line control, I know some lines of pointer are more geared toward "meat hunters' like me (I don't trial or want a trial dog), and hunters on foot. I have seen a bit online about the elhew pointers and wonder what else is out there.

Any anecdotes relating to pointers an retrieving or pointers for closer work/walking hunters are more than appreciated. Thanks all, and again apologies for ruffling some feathers with what was meant to be an HONEST question. I might come off as ignorant on this board but never a know it all or braggart. I really am here 100% to LEARN.

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Sharon
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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by Sharon » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:20 pm

Good to see you have a sense of humor. :) and tough skin. You'll do fine here. Welcome.

to clarify: you want a close -working pointer who will retrieve.

In my opinion as badly as you want a pointer, you are pushing the limits of what a pointer is made to be. My only suggestion is to reconsider your breed. ( how far away do you want the dog to work?)

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by seiowa » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:24 pm

SHaron,

Just close by pointer standards. I know it won't be a clumber spaniel plodding along 30 yards in front of me, but I don't want a pointer that is two counties over by the time the tailgate drops.

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Sharon
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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by Sharon » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:37 pm

I'd just watch who I get my pointer from ; you don't want a big running trial pointer. A trained voice command can keep a dog a in the range you want.

( You need to go to some trials. Even though the dog may look to be "2 counties over by the time the tail gate drops ",( hilarious) , it has been trained to be always under the control of the handler. My point being you can keep a dog in the range you want by training to change direction with a voice command.)

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by CDN_Cocker » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:09 pm

Softness of a dog does not dictate how well it will take to FF. In my limited experience a soft dog is much easier (on both parties involved) as it doesn't take as much pressure to achieve compliance. I have an english cocker, and while they are hard as nails in the bush, when it comes to training they are quite soppy, even my devilish little chap. If I raise my voice too much at him he's flat out on the ground. That being said, he went through FF beautifully. I did not skip any steps or avoid the "force" part just because he got it and was quick to do what was asked, but it was easier on both him and I because if he didn't comply I did not need to increase the pressure very much. Follow a solid FF plan and don't worry about how soft or hard the dog is :) Just like the labs you had, nurture a natural desire to want to retrieve when you bring the pup home and I know you'll have no issues whatsoever.

As an aside.... by all means get the breed that you want - you are the one that has to live with it. But sounds to me like a spaniel (springer or english cocker) would probably suit you better, or perhaps even a brittany as from what I have heard they tend to stay a bit closer than a pointer.

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by FlyingDutchman12 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:59 pm

If you love the English Pointer breed, given your requirements, I would recommend you look for a pup from strong Elhew lines. I can only speak from my experience, but all of the well-bred Elhew dogs I've owned or know were excellent retrievers, close working, intelligent, biddable and easy to train bird dogs.

None of the Elhew Pointers I've known were big running, All-Age field trial dogs. If that's what you are after then there are excellent lines - Miller and Blackhawk come to mind - within the Pointer breed for that. Also, Elhew pointers are still primarily upland bird dogs. If you want a pointer that also has strong retriever traits for waterfowl, then the GWP/DD and GSP would be where I would look. The DD's have always held an attraction for me but I've never owned one.

I don't hunt waterfowl much, and here in MI Grouse, Woodcock, and Pheasant are my primary focus and the Elhew dogs have been awesomely easy to train for me (a non pro) with a little help and they have been wonderful house-friendly companions. In my opinion, Bob Wehle left folks like me a great legacy.

Hope this helps. Feel free to PM if you need help/suggestions looking at Elhew Kennel options.

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by codym » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:06 pm

English pointers can be made into great retrievers and contrary to what you may have been told there are many pointers that are very natural retrievers and do not require FF. There is a gentleman in Kansas named Jerry Simmons, that force breaks Ep's at 6 months old and everyone I have ever seen he has broke are a thing of beauty. Straight out straight back put the bird right in your hand with a perfect hold. I have force broke labs and ep's and some of my ep's have been "harder" than my labs. I am partial to fiddler/blackhawk bred dogs, I have two great river ice pups, a couple HTAxBlackhawk bred dogs, a couple HTAxCLJ dogs and all of them have been natural retrievers. The only dog I have right now that doesnt retriever is a young english setter pup. There is a ton of BS out there regarding english pointers, people say they are run offs, don't like people, don't like water, won't retrieve and so on. I have been running HB shooting dogs for a few years now and I will tell you none of that is true. Get one and you will see, make him your buddy and you will have a loyal friend that will run like the wind and have an unquenchable desire to find birds. An amazing breed of dog, but obviously im a bit partial.
I've heard every post is better with pics so here are a few of my young dogs that are all great natural retrievers.

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by PntrRookie » Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:57 am

IMO...since this would be your first pointer, find a kennel/trainer/breeder that has some started pointers for sale and go see them work. Get your eyes on them and actually see what they do. EP puppies (any breed) are crap shoots and you could take a fire-breather home and you will get frustrated and disappointed fast. If you find a field trialer/breeder that has some options for you to see, you will have a MUCH better idea of what you are taking home...JMO.

I know of a few in your area (SE Iowa?) Let me know if you are interested in contact names.

Here ya go Cody...
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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by mnaj_springer » Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:33 am

It's all about the breeding stock you get your dog from. Know the sire and dam. Know how they hunt and retrieve.

As far as soft dogs go, see CDN_cocker's comments. Soft dogs are smart and sensitive. Not stupid.

I use a quick whistle or I yell out "Hup" (spaniel folks relax) to turn my pointer. And if she doesn't listen I just walk the other direction. She doesn't want to get left behind.

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by GrayDawg » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:48 am

Okay........... so you think you want a Pointer (the breed, or the type?) that works slow
and preferably close?

Then try a Spinone Italiano.

http://www.timberdoodlespinone.com/Spin ... ation.html

Image

If you are specifically seeking a Pointer (i.e., English Pointer), then finding one
which works slow and close will be a different task altogether. I suggest you speak
with Garrett Booth from Grey's Outfitting in The Forks, ME. I know their Pointers work close-
as I watched them work last fall. Thick cover up there in Maine and they want their dogs
hunting hard & close.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Greys-Ou ... b=overview

Good luck,

Rob

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by codym » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:06 am

PntrRookie wrote:
Here ya go Cody...

Great looking dogs!

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by tobytx » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:42 am

A slow dog?? Stick with labs! :P

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by displaced_texan » Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:25 pm

GrayDawg wrote: If you are specifically seeking a Pointer (i.e., English Pointer), then finding one
which works slow and close will be a different task altogether. I suggest you speak
with Garrett Booth from Grey's Outfitting in The Forks, ME. I know their Pointers work close-
as I watched them work last fall. Thick cover up there in Maine and they want their dogs
hunting hard & close.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Greys-Ou ... b=overview

Good luck,

Rob
Exactly what I hung up on. Even a "slow" Pointer is faster than a Lab...

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by birddogger » Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:40 pm

Please accept my apologies and you have been given good advise so far in the above posts.

Good luck,
Charlie

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by GrayDawg » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:12 am

displaced_texan wrote:........ Even a "slow" Pointer is faster than a Lab...
No doubt about that !! :wink:

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by birdogg42 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:41 pm

codym wrote:English pointers can be made into great retrievers and contrary to what you may have been told there are many pointers that are very natural retrievers and do not require FF. There is a gentleman in Kansas named Jerry Simmons, that force breaks Ep's at 6 months old and everyone I have ever seen he has broke are a thing of beauty. Straight out straight back put the bird right in your hand with a perfect hold. I have force broke labs and ep's and some of my ep's have been "harder" than my labs. I am partial to fiddler/blackhawk bred dogs, I have two great river ice pups, a couple HTAxBlackhawk bred dogs, a couple HTAxCLJ dogs and all of them have been natural retrievers. The only dog I have right now that doesnt retriever is a young english setter pup. There is a ton of BS out there regarding english pointers, people say they are run offs, don't like people, don't like water, won't retrieve and so on. I have been running HB shooting dogs for a few years now and I will tell you none of that is true. Get one and you will see, make him your buddy and you will have a loyal friend that will run like the wind and have an unquenchable desire to find birds. An amazing breed of dog, but obviously im a bit partial.
I've heard every post is better with pics so here are a few of my young dogs that are all great natural retrievers.

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by displaced_texan » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:11 pm

birddogger wrote:Please accept my apologies and you have been given good advise so far in the above posts.

Good luck,
Charlie
Honestly, look for a dog from lines that have done well in a shoot to retrieve trial format, or on wild birds, and let him/her hunt as they do naturally.

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by ckirsch » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:20 pm

I'm on my third pointer. The first two were natural retrievers on land and in water, and the latest pup is shaping up to be the same. Range hasn't been a problem either; mine quickly figured out that they can run to their hearts' content on prairie grouse hunts, but need to stay in pretty close on pheasant. Wouldn't be my first choice for late season waterfowl, but mine do fine on the few dams I jump each year while I'm out pheasant hunting. I often read that pointers are aloof dogs, that hasn't been the case with mine. Great companions around the house and yard, gentle with the kids, quick to house train, quiet in the kennel. My biggest complaint is their shedding, but mine don't get further than the back porch very often.

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by mnaj_springer » Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:16 am

ckirsch wrote: I often read that pointers are aloof dogs, that hasn't been the case with mine. Great companions around the house and yard, gentle with the kids, quick to house train, quiet in the kennel. My biggest complaint is their shedding, but mine don't get further than the back porch very often.
I only have the one Pointer but so many true statements here. Outlandish, goofy, (over) enthusiastic... Those are words to describe her. But she is not aloof. In fact she will sit next to me on the couch and stare at my face. If I give her ANY indication that I notice her, she'll quickly try to lick my face and snake her way onto my lap. She loves people and specifically, she loves HER people.

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by Sharon » Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:45 pm

ckirsch wrote:
I often read that pointers are aloof dogs, that hasn't been the case with mine. Great companions around the house and yard, gentle with the kids, quick to house train, quiet in the kennel. My biggest complaint is their shedding, but mine don't get further than the back porch very often.

................................................

Aloofness I think depends on the personality of the dog , not the breed. I have 2 setters. One love to be beside you and the other always is a distance or room away. She'll come to sit with you when called , but looks at you after a minute saying , " Is that enough? Can I go now?

You want shedding? Have setters in the house. :(

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by Rik » Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:57 pm

When I think of "Slow" vis- a- vis gundogs I don't think of a dog that moves slowly but rather a dog the hunts close, 60 yards or so, but fast and in complete control of the handler. Any of the pointing dog breeds can be trained to do this but, in my opinion this approach limits the type game bird and habitat you can hunt. Before jumping in to this you might want to read some Ben O. Williams.

Get a dog with a reputation for bird finding ability, stamina, beauty,and retrieving capability. Train this dog to turn when you want him to, come when you call, be steady on point, stop when you say so, and then let him hunt. If want him to hunt close, turn him a few times and he'll shorten up, otherwise he will hunt the available cover.

Any of the pointing dog breeds can be taught to retrieve. The debate among breed advocates is how easy their breeds can be trained. There are many claims of pointing dog breeds being "natural" retreivers, haven't seen any of these magical creatures in 50 years of hunting. I have seen dogs that were much easier to train to retrieve, notably GSPs.

I have three Setters and all of them retrieve well. One of them took to the trained retrieve in two weeks, one in four weeks and the third still needs refresher sessions before a hunt.

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by Deets » Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:52 pm

Can you take a 20 ga duck hunting......yes, Is it the best choice? Probably not, pointers can obviously be trained to retrieve. (If not they couldn't win NSTRA events), but you don't buy a pointer for the retrieve. I hate all this versatility talk these days. You can't have a dog that does every thing great. It's like an el camino. It's a truck and a car, but not a very good truck, or car. Get a big running pointer, and have a lab do the retrieving for him.

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:15 am

Deets wrote:Can you take a 20 ga duck hunting......yes, Is it the best choice? Probably not, pointers can obviously be trained to retrieve. (If not they couldn't win NSTRA events), but you don't buy a pointer for the retrieve. I hate all this versatility talk these days. You can't have a dog that does every thing great. It's like an el camino. It's a truck and a car, but not a very good truck, or car. Get a big running pointer, and have a lab do the retrieving for him.
Bingo.

If you want a to do what a pointer does...get a pointer. If you want a dog that does what a retriever does...get a lab. If you want a dog that does what a springer does...get a springer. This list could go on, and on. Horses for courses.


There are SO many different flavors of dogs to hunt over, and such a wide variation within each specific breed. Figure out what you want the dog to do and then go get one that does that.

If you want one dog that does everything, to the highest level...there is no such animal. You are going to have to settle, and accept less than optimal performance, somewhere along the line.

RayG

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by Sharon » Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:38 pm

Deets wrote:Can you take a 20 ga duck hunting......yes, Is it the best choice? Probably not, pointers can obviously be trained to retrieve. (If not they couldn't win NSTRA events), but you don't buy a pointer for the retrieve. I hate all this versatility talk these days. You can't have a dog that does every thing great. It's like an el camino. It's a truck and a car, but not a very good truck, or car. Get a big running pointer, and have a lab do the retrieving for him.

Well said!

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by ckirsch » Sun Sep 06, 2015 4:04 pm

While I agree that all breeds have their respective strengths and weaknesses, the suggestion that pointer owners should get a lab to retrieve their birds might go a bit overboard. That would be akin to telling lab owners that they should get some pointers to find birds for their labs to retrieve.

I hunt behind AA-bred pointers that cover plenty of ground. They retrieve just fine, and never really had to be "taught" to do so - my version of "FF" typically consists of four or five sessions of working with them to hold the bird until I ask for it, as opposed to dropping it at my feet. The only situation where I might wish for a lab would be cold-weather waterfowling. For upland birds, pointers can handle the retrieving end of the deal just fine. Probably not precisely enough to take a retriever trailer's breath away, but they get the job done.

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:42 pm

I have only trained a couple of English Pointers. Both of them were show bred but both of them liked retrieving and did so "naturally." They were good pointers but they would not have won a field trial , they only rarely exceeded about 100 yards in range even on very open ground. They would have suited me fine as hunting dogs but they did not do well if it was wet and cold, they didn't have the coat for bad weather.

I'll probably get strung up for this suggestion but would a "pointing lab" suit you ? I believe one or two folk breed them on your side of the pond ?

Bill T.

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by birddogger » Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:51 pm

Trekmoor wrote:I have only trained a couple of English Pointers. Both of them were show bred but both of them liked retrieving and did so "naturally." They were good pointers but they would not have won a field trial , they only rarely exceeded about 100 yards in range even on very open ground. They would have suited me fine as hunting dogs but they did not do well if it was wet and cold, they didn't have the coat for bad weather.

I'll probably get strung up for this suggestion but would a "pointing lab" suit you ? I believe one or two folk breed them on your side of the pond ?

Bill T.
Why would you get strung up for this? I think it is a very good option to look into. :D

Charlie

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by seiowa » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:08 am

Thanks all for the great and varied responses!

Maybe I should clarify a few things so it doesn't look like I'm asking for a three quarter ton truck that has to get over 40 mpg...


Slow/close is relative and that's how I mean it. I don't want a dog tunneling and plodding through the brush 30 yards ahead like a clumber spaniel. But FROM WHAT IVE HEARD (please don't shoot me on this, all I know of pointers is mostly anecdotal so owners, don't take offense), some lines of pointers can be three counties over by the time the tailgate drops. NOT what I want at all. I am wondering how much is training vs how much is breeding in order to keep a pointer at a distance I establish.

As far as the retrieving goes...I know they aren't labs and I don't intend on making the dog into one. Again, like i said in paragraph one, FROM WHAT I HAVE BEEN TOLD (again, laugh at me all you want but I didn't grow up around pointers and havent seen many), pointers don't retrieve well. As long as I could find one who was lets say, "adequate" that is good enough for me. I hunted with a setter once who WOULD NOT retrieve and man that was the most irritating experience in the world after growing up with duck dogs :lol: . As long as some can make decent retrievers I would not complain.

Being a meat hunter, I really could care less about a lot of things, I am just wondering how common or easy it would be to find a pointer who can be controlled at a reasonable distance, and makes a decent effort to retrieve. Again I dont mean like 50 yards close, and I dont mean Chessie-like retrieving ability, so for all those who think I'm chasing the wind or trying to find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, trust me, I am much more realistic than that. I realize getting a pointer and tryng to shape it into a clumber spaniel is like buying a ferrari and taking it offroading. Not made for it and I will disappoint myself and the dog, and I hope to avoid both.

Thanks for all who replied, and a special thanks to those that sent PMs, you have all been very helpful.

PS I returned and responded, does this mean I'm not a troll anymore?? :mrgreen:

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:24 am

You have a clean bill of health but you always did though there might have been a little twinge right at the beginning. We just have a group here that once in a while get ahead of themselves instead of waiting till there irrefutable evidence. Especially when they get bored this time of year but we continue to hope their is improvement. Actually most are pretty good guys.

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by seiowa » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:11 pm

Hey ezzy, were you by chance (or are you still) on Iowa Outdoors/ Iowa Sportsman? I used to lurk there years ago and recognize your handle and your pic if it is a britt.

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:32 pm

seiowa wrote:Hey ezzy, were you by chance (or are you still) on Iowa Outdoors/ Iowa Sportsman? I used to lurk there years ago and recognize your handle and your pic if it is a britt.
Yeah I used to check it out most days.

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by CDN_Cocker » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:40 pm

Deets wrote:Can you take a 20 ga duck hunting......yes, Is it the best choice? Probably not, pointers can obviously be trained to retrieve. (If not they couldn't win NSTRA events), but you don't buy a pointer for the retrieve. I hate all this versatility talk these days. You can't have a dog that does every thing great. It's like an el camino. It's a truck and a car, but not a very good truck, or car. Get a big running pointer, and have a lab do the retrieving for him.
One of the best posts I've seen in ages. This should be a sticky.

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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by displaced_texan » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:11 pm

seiowa wrote:ThI am wondering how much is training vs how much is breeding in order to keep a pointer at a distance I establish.
Find one from lines (walking trials or foot hunting background) and trust the dog. It's an odd feeling at first to let the dog "run off", but they know more than you, and will find (and hold) birds.

Personally I'm a big fan of the Crow's Little Joe/Honky Tonk Attitude crosses. But there are a number of others that would suit you well.

On edit: The point in my avatar was made when he was probably 250 yards from me.

Soarer31
Rank: Senior Hunter
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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by Soarer31 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:25 pm

[quote="seiowa"]Thanks all for the great and varied responses!

Maybe I should clarify a few things so it doesn't look like I'm asking for a three quarter ton truck that has to get over 40 mpg...

Have a good day

Edited to remove material that was not constructive to the topic.

Ezzy

JOESTEAD
Rank: Just A Pup
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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by JOESTEAD » Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:04 am

My pointers do not like water. Tried luring them into a shallow creek when they were 6 months old in July, for a few days a week for the month. Walked all the way across and they went off hunting by themselves.

A friend of mine told me a story about his grandfather's pointer: As the hunter crossed a small stream to get to some likely area the dog (also no lover of water) jumped on his shoulder, knocking him down and from there to the other side. The friend didn't tell me if they recrossed the stream or not.

Robin Freeman
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Re: Let's Try this Again...Pointer Questions

Post by Robin Freeman » Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:02 pm

I run pointers and setters on a preserve, and use a lab for flushing the birds. My pointers retrieve just as good as my lab. If it's a criple they may point again instead of retrieving it like the lab will. They also hunt to my whistle. A toot and hand sign and they head my way until I point another direction. You work them enough and they'll do what you wish. I keep my lab close to me and the hunting party and she has pointed singles for me on occasion!

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