Breeding Question

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steamer
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Breeding Question

Post by steamer » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:32 am

So im looking at upcoming breeding looking for a new gsp puppy. I came across one that looks pretty good both parents have hunting titles on them. Both come from well know kennels. I did some research and found the dam has a butt bite . My question's are 1. why would a well known breeder breed a dog with a bad bite? 2.What are the chances it will be passed on to the puppies? 3. Can you tell by looking at a puppy if it has a bad bite ?Thanks for any replies, Doug

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DonF
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Re: Breeding Question

Post by DonF » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:36 am

What's a butt bite?

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by cjhills » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:51 am

1. Who Knows. Might be he likes enough about the dam to overlook the bite. I guess you would need to ask the breeder. Most Do not.
2.Fairly likely some puppies will have it.
3. Yes you can generally see a bad bite. I have heard of puppies that it was not noticeable at 8 weeks and was later. I have never seen that.
If I intended to breed this puppy, I would not buy one from this litter if it showed or not. A pet/hunting dog it would not be a issue, if I liked the breeding enough......................Cj

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by Ms. Cage » Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:10 am

cjhills wrote:1. Who Knows. Might be he likes enough about the dam to overlook the bite. I guess you would need to ask the breeder. Most Do not. 2.Fairly likely some puppies will have it. 3. Yes you can generally see a bad bite. I have heard of puppies that it was not noticeable at 8 weeks and was later. I have never seen that. If I intended to breed this puppy, I would not buy one from this litter if it showed or not. A pet/hunting dog it would not be a issue, if I liked the breeding enough......................Cj
+ 1 I have seen pups puppy teeth move. Pups would have a good bite at 8 weeks. When adult teeth came in dog had a butt or bad bite.

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by steamer » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:04 pm

Don , a butt bite is where the top and bottom incisor teeth come together right on top of each other. A normal bite the top teeth should slightly overlap the bottom teeth but still touch. The k9's and and other teeth should nest together in a certain way. There are much better explanations on the web. Thats the basic way i understand it.

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:15 pm

Buttbite is an even bite like stated where the normal or correct bite is a sissor bite with the top overlapping the bottom but actuall touching so they cut like a sissor. Same with people's bite, a sissor bite.

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by CDN_Cocker » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:02 pm

Personally I'd pass.... lots of good breedings out there with proper bites ;)

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by Timewise65 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:33 pm

If all buyers would pass on any dogs that have any known issues that could be hereditary, you would be improving the overall pool of dogs available. So for that reason alone, I would not consider a litter from that bitch. A much bigger question is what about health clearances. Did they have the main ones? Without that, I would never even call a breeder! Course that's just me!

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by Georgia Boy » Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:45 pm

Just food for thought, in breed clubs that actually have required breeding standards on, dogs and or dentition requirements a butt or plier bite is typically not a disqualification, but it is suggested to use caution when breeding. However, an overshot, undershot, cross bite or any missing teeth other than p1 is automatic disqualification.

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by fuzznut » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:26 pm

have you asked why they chose to breed this bitch? Could be her qualities, and those of her litter mates outshine this one fault.

A level bite is not wanted in most breeds, but in all honesty, if that is her worst fault, and if bites in general are not a known problem in the line.... I would not get nuts about it.

Now if you are buying this puppy as a foundation bitch for future breeding, that could be a whole mother can of worms... but if you are looking for a gun dog with no aspirations beyond that-

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by pato y codoniz » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:46 pm

steamer wrote:So im looking at upcoming breeding looking for a new gsp puppy. I came across one that looks pretty good both parents have hunting titles on them. Both come from well know kennels. I did some research and found the dam has a butt bite . My question's are 1. why would a well known breeder breed a dog with a bad bite? 2.What are the chances it will be passed on to the puppies? 3. Can you tell by looking at a puppy if it has a bad bite ?Thanks for any replies, Doug
For what it is worth... if the bitch was a German breed club dog, instead of an akc dog, she wouldn't be allowed to breed.

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:57 pm

pato y codoniz wrote:
steamer wrote:So im looking at upcoming breeding looking for a new gsp puppy. I came across one that looks pretty good both parents have hunting titles on them. Both come from well know kennels. I did some research and found the dam has a butt bite . My question's are 1. why would a well known breeder breed a dog with a bad bite? 2.What are the chances it will be passed on to the puppies? 3. Can you tell by looking at a puppy if it has a bad bite ?Thanks for any replies, Doug
For what it is worth... if the bitch was a German breed club dog, instead of an akc dog, she wouldn't be allowed to breed.


That doesn't go over well in this country so the breed club doesn't control breeding like they do in Europe

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:12 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
pato y codoniz wrote:
steamer wrote:So im looking at upcoming breeding looking for a new gsp puppy. I came across one that looks pretty good both parents have hunting titles on them. Both come from well know kennels. I did some research and found the dam has a butt bite . My question's are 1. why would a well known breeder breed a dog with a bad bite? 2.What are the chances it will be passed on to the puppies? 3. Can you tell by looking at a puppy if it has a bad bite ?Thanks for any replies, Doug
For what it is worth... if the bitch was a German breed club dog, instead of an akc dog, she wouldn't be allowed to breed.


That doesn't go over well in this country so the breed club doesn't control breeding like they do in Europe

And the logistics that it would take would price us into other hobbies. Most dogs here never get judged on bite because they don't compete... AKC excuses most breeds that I know of for incorrect bite in Conformation rings, but even tracking those relatively few Dogs would be a nightmare. It falls on the Breeders and buyers to do the ethical thing.

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:40 pm

AKC has no license to set the conformation standards and their only responsibility is to uphold the standards the breed club sets.

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:51 pm

ezzy333 wrote:AKC has no license to set the conformation standards and their only responsibility is to uphold the standards the breed club sets.
Who mentioned a license? I was talking about AKC events and how every breed that I have seen would get excused for improper bite. I think I even mentioned that it would be impossible for them to enforce all registered dogs. Obviously someone at the AKC had to approve the clubs standards to let them be approved.

And they are all AKC Judges who judge AKC Events. Where did we get off track?

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:09 pm

Obviously someone at the AKC had to approve the clubs standards to let them be approved.
Probably derailed right here because this isn't true. AKC works for the breed clubs and not the other way.

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:24 pm

When I run any event sponsored by the AKC, the results go to the AKC for approval first. They issue the titles.

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:26 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:When I run any event sponsored by the AKC, the results go to the AKC for approval first. They issue the titles.
Right but setting the standard for a breed is not what they do. They do have to set the schedule for events they sponsor.

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:40 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:When I run any event sponsored by the AKC, the results go to the AKC for approval first. They issue the titles.
Right but setting the standard for a breed is not what they do. They do have to set the schedule for events they sponsor.
I did not mean to infer that they set the standard, just that they excepted it and continue to track the events that they sanction. BUT those Judges have a big influence upon what is accepted. No big deal as I'm done with the Conformation ring. ( even though my EX is on the board and will crucify me now.) :D

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by steamer » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:58 am

Thanks for the replies .I'm going to pass on this breeding . If anybody knows of any good GSP litters due to whelp late winter early spring let me know. thanks Doug

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:49 pm

Good thinking!!!!

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by pato y codoniz » Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:04 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
pato y codoniz wrote:
steamer wrote:So im looking at upcoming breeding looking for a new gsp puppy. I came across one that looks pretty good both parents have hunting titles on them. Both come from well know kennels. I did some research and found the dam has a butt bite . My question's are 1. why would a well known breeder breed a dog with a bad bite? 2.What are the chances it will be passed on to the puppies? 3. Can you tell by looking at a puppy if it has a bad bite ?Thanks for any replies, Doug
For what it is worth... if the bitch was a German breed club dog, instead of an akc dog, she wouldn't be allowed to breed.


That doesn't go over well in this country so the breed club doesn't control breeding like they do in Europe
Nobody said they did but, in a free market with little regulation (only that dog and bitch must be AKC registered), it is up to the consumer to set the standards for the product that they're buying. It is the entire basis for free market principles.

Btw, you think that requiring breeding dogs to pass a confirmation test would raise the stink? How about having to submit a potential breeding to the breed master for approval?

Anyway, just because standards aren't implemented by the AKC and the gspa doesn't mean that consumers can't, shouldn'the and aren't using higher standards.

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by pato y codoniz » Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:49 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote: And the logistics that it would take would price us into other hobbies.
I'm not sure it would.

Costs more to trial a dog or retriever test a dog.

Going rate on a kurzhaar or drahthaar in Germany is 850€ or about $1000.

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:41 pm

pato y codoniz wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
steamer wrote:So im looking at upcoming breeding looking for a new gsp puppy. I came across one that looks pretty good both parents have hunting titles on them. Both come from well know kennels. I did some research and found the dam has a butt bite . My question's are 1. why would a well known breeder breed a dog with a bad bite? 2.What are the chances it will be passed on to the puppies? 3. Can you tell by looking at a puppy if it has a bad bite ?Thanks for any replies, Doug

That doesn't go over well in this country so the breed club doesn't control breeding like they do in Europe
Nobody said they did but, in a free market with little regulation (only that dog and bitch must be AKC registered), it is up to the consumer to set the standards for the product that they're buying. It is the entire basis for free market principles.

Btw, you think that requiring breeding dogs to pass a confirmation test would raise the stink? How about having to submit a potential breeding to the breed master for approval?

Anyway, just because standards aren't implemented by the AKC and the gspa doesn't mean that consumers can't, shouldn'the and aren't using higher standards.
Are cyou saying that the customer who may or may not have even seen the breed before is setting the standard for the breed? Don't think I am following you on this. I think your idea of a higher standard may be quite different than someone buying there first dog.

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:03 pm

pato y codoniz wrote:
Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote: And the logistics that it would take would price us into other hobbies.
I'm not sure it would.

Costs more to trial a dog or retriever test a dog.

Going rate on a kurzhaar or drahthaar in Germany is 850€ or about $1000.
That's cheap here compared to some breeds.

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Re: Breeding Question

Post by pato y codoniz » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:47 pm

ezzy333 wrote:

Are cyou saying that the customer who may or may not have even seen the breed before is setting the standard for the breed? Don't think I am following you on this. I think your idea of a higher standard may be quite different than someone buying there first dog.
Well what you're describing is how an unregulated free market works... the consumer drives the product.

For example, the "designer" lab colors (silver, charcoal, an champagne) or things like label doodles are driven by consumers. Heck, if we want to get technical about it, lots of field trial gsps don't meet the standard.

However, what I was talking about is that, with an unregulated market, the burden of ensuring quality is that of the consumer and, to do so, they need to impose higher standards.

In terms of buying American German Shorthairs, I'd want confirmation testing, medical testing, line research, and some proven field performance (either ft or navhda depending on the purpose).

Or if a guy just wants a great versatile dog, without having to do all of that, he can get a US bred kurzhaar for $800 to $1000 and be done with it because, due to breeding regulations, they've done the heavy lifting and most all the American dks are from bird lines.

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