FT dogs not such good hunters

RyanDoolittle
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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:34 pm

Can you imagine trying to cover this with a 150 yard dog. Thats a whole lot of walking!
I have access to about 5000 acres of this natural prairie, working on getting more access further west, across the river and another 100 sections north east of here.


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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by Neil » Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:06 pm

Saw a guy with a fat Lab hunting similar ground on the National Grasslands in South Dakota, watched them go over a butte about a mile and half from the road. He seemed to be enjoying himself, and I did hear him shoot twice, which earned him a toast.

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by cjhills » Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:03 pm

RyanDoolittle wrote:Can you imagine trying to cover this with a 150 yard dog. Thats a whole lot of walking!
I have access to about 5000 acres of this natural prairie, working on getting more access further west, across the river and another 100 sections north east of here.


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The thing is ,unless you are on a horse you are going to have to walk to where the birds are no matter how far away the dog finds them. Is it better to have a dog that finds a bird at 1,000 yards than to have a dog that finds birds at 150 yards. I guess it depends if we go out to find birds or to watch dogs run. Why do you assume you have to cover the whole thing the birds will not be everywhere. Plus there are places that will likely hold birds and a good 150 yard dog will do as good or better than a 1/2 mile dog. If you hunt that country as much as I do you will find you shoot as many birds over a 200 yard dog as a 2000 yard dog. For sure if you are on foot and probably if you are on a horse.
I love that country. Don't need 100 sections though.....................Cj

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:00 pm

There are areas I know usually hold birds but they can be literally anywhere here. I have found sharptails all over the piece and have seen their scat piles in areas I havent found them (perhaps morning or evening roosts).

You dont need a 1 mile dog to cover this however I find my 300 yard dog not big enough when walking. He sure covers it nice when I am on HB though. Another added bonus if the weather is just right scenting conditions can be 100 or 150 yards. All it takes is a little moisture about 20km/hr wind and a high pressure system to blow scent right into a dogs nose. You can cover this with a closer working dog its just means more walking for the handler. More ground covered = a better chance at birds.

Tomorrow we do another day out there on a different course. It will take us across prairie along the coulee edge with a few draws and low wet areas, we drop down into the river bottom for more prairie along side of mature elm trees with willow and wildrose stands. Mostly Hungarians and Ringnecks on this one but sometimes you find the odd sharptail up top and some big muley deer in the bottom.

You can see the dog at the bottom of the hill almost the middle of the picture. His find (picture above) was at the top just before it starts to dip down. Hes at about 150 yards in that picture. Still looks small with my 18-55mm lens
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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:04 pm

Theres an area full of these Teepee rings as well. It appears there were 6 or 8 of them but only a couple are in this good of shape.

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by Neil » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:41 pm

We have been hunting from UTV s for years now.

But when done from foot if you have a 150 yard dog you have to steer him to the birdy area as you walk to there, and to the next, and the next. And there is nothing wrong with that.

With a bigger going dog, you can gain a higher point, and let the dog check out those same objectives while you watch. The dog hunts 270 degrees around you, if no one is home, you and the dog hunt to the next elevation. If he points, you go to him, and yes, most times the birds will hold, not always, but more than not.

I say dog, when I mean 2 or 3 on the ground, and 3 or 4 reserves in the dog boxes on the K-Mule.

There are a number of ways to enjoy our dogs, all of them good.

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by mask » Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:52 pm

Anyone that believes that field trial dogs are not good hunters is full of it. Field trial dogs and/ or hunting dogs, on the whole have one thing in common, some are better at what they do than others

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by cjhills » Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:49 pm

Neil wrote:We have been hunting from UTV s for years now.

But when done from foot if you have a 150 yard dog you have to steer him to the birdy area as you walk to there, and to the next, and the next. And there is nothing wrong with that.

With a bigger going dog, you can gain a higher point, and let the dog check out those same objectives while you watch. The dog hunts 270 degrees around you, if no one is home, you and the dog hunt to the next elevation. If he points, you go to him, and yes, most times the birds will hold, not always, but more than not.

I say dog, when I mean 2 or 3 on the ground, and 3 or 4 reserves in the dog boxes on the K-Mule.

There are a number of ways to enjoy our dogs, all of them good.
Most places where we hunt on public land in Minnesota that is not legal. Seen some grouse hunters doing that. Never liked it much.
We never steer the dog the good ones know where to look. The birdy areas are different from the time of season and the time of day .........Cj

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by Neil » Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:53 pm

Do you think you are the only person with experience and knowledge?

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by JKP » Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:28 pm

If the dog knows where the handler is at all times, why is it important that the handler knows where the dog is at all times? Which one is doing the hunting?
If I can't find the dog, what good does it do me if its on point? There is a happy medium.

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by Neil » Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:38 pm

JKP wrote:
If the dog knows where the handler is at all times, why is it important that the handler knows where the dog is at all times? Which one is doing the hunting?
If I can't find the dog, what good does it do me if its on point? There is a happy medium.
First we had bells, then beepers, followed by telemetry, now GPS. I always know when the dog is on point and can find him.

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:32 pm

Neil wrote:
JKP wrote:
If the dog knows where the handler is at all times, why is it important that the handler knows where the dog is at all times? Which one is doing the hunting?
If I can't find the dog, what good does it do me if its on point? There is a happy medium.
First we had bells, then beepers, followed by telemetry, now GPS. I always know when the dog is on point and can find him.


But most ordinary hunters do not have that modern equipment so what any of us thinks applies to us and no one else.
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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by cjhills » Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:41 pm

Neil wrote:Do you think you are the only person with experience and knowledge?
No knowledge a lot of experience. I have Followed a lot of bird dogs across the northern plains. It's all good but we should keep it legal and Motorized vehicle are not allowed on most of the land we hunt. In MN, the Dakotas and Montana either by the landowners or the respective DNRs.
Time to give this up...............................Cj

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by RyanDoolittle » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:32 pm

Most posts I see on FB the dogs are wearing tracking units or the owners are looking for one. Anyone who has a big running dog is wise to put a tracker on them. Heck ive lost a dog 3 geet away hunting cattails.

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by Neil » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:50 am

Since 1998 I have only used the horses for training and trials, I went to a UTV for open areas, but the same year got Boykins for the tight, thick areas that I still hunt from foot. I only hunt where they are legal; Texas and South Dakota the last few years, but as long as you operate on proper trails and dismount to shoot they are allowed in most Western states. Which is where the photo was taken. Where and how I hunt, I have no need for 150 yard dog. 30 yards and 300+ works for me. I certainly understand why others appreciate a closer hunting pointing dog.

I strongly believe every pointing dog owner, regardless of range of the dog, should have them micro chipped and invest in telemetry or GPS. All of them are subject to getting lost.

And a bell is pretty cheap.

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by jimbo&rooster » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:31 pm

Y'all are aware at least one dog running in the national championship has a NAHVDA title.....
A limit on the strap is nice, but the kill has nothing to do with tradition.

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by Neil » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:56 pm

jimbo&rooster wrote:Y'all are aware at least one dog running in the national championship has a NAHVDA title.....
I think one of them would be Caladen' s Rail Hawk and another might be Caasique's Boss, they both have titles in multiple venues.

One of the top Brittanys of all time had a couple legs on his JH.

And just proves great dogs are great!

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by dan v » Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:15 pm

I'm at a loss as to why threads like this come up.

If you like a 50 yard pointing....Fine. If you like a 500 yard pointing fine. You prefer NAVDHA titles...super. Or you prefer FT titles...great.

I won't belittle you for what you prefer, you agree not to belittle me for the type of dog I prefer.
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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by RyanDoolittle » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:14 pm

Neil wrote:
jimbo&rooster wrote:Y'all are aware at least one dog running in the national championship has a NAHVDA title.....
I think one of them would be Caladen' s Rail Hawk and another might be Caasique's Boss, they both have titles in multiple venues.

One of the top Brittanys of all time had a couple legs on his JH.

And just proves great dogs are great!

I believe Rail Hawk was getting ready to run in UT but stopped because of training for a National Championship vs a NAVHDA title. Smart move.

His sister I believe though is a Versatile Champion. This title always confused me, I thought you had to beat another dog to be considered a champion.

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by Ms. Cage » Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:48 pm

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by trueblu » Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:02 pm

Same ole argument that's gone on since trials began. Everyone believes how they use their own dogs and where they hunt is good for everyone else. I've hunted my trial dogs on wild quail in west Texas on foot and out of Rangers, Mules, and all types of 4 wheelers. It's a blast and the dogs have never disappointed. Thick cover they shorten up SOME and hunt harder and cover the territory more thoroughly. Big country they hunt from A to Z and will stretch to a mile, often being found on point, yes, with a Tracker on occasion, other times just seen on point 1/4 mile away. A beautiful sight. Just got back from NW Kansas, group of 11 of us, shot 88 birds in two days over a very short ranging shorthair and some really great hard charging 5-20 yard labs. Guess what, an absolute blast was had by all. Whatever floats your boat.

BUT, for anyone to generalize that trial dogs can't hunt is pure garbage. There are some that are pure trial dogs, even big winners in some breeds, who suck the ground up, point staring at their birds, and stay 100 yards. But, there are some who cover ground, hunt from the first step,have maximum range, point way off their birds, have tons of style, and are a pure joy to watch. Doesn't take a good judge, one who hunts and judges, to know a good dog whose been hunted, but can also WIN!!

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:57 pm

Will never forget the last puppy I run in a trial was on a hedge line when the judge rode over and said "you have hunted that pup haven't you?" Told him I sure have and he said it shows and I picked up a blue with him. Nice for the first trial for the pup.

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by RLF » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:07 am

A trial dog SHOULD hunt. One assumption that seems to pervaded this thread is that a non-trial hunting dog are all great at their job. I have seen quite a few hunting dogs that do not hunt hard, are not all that good at handling birds, but whose fond owners love and accept them nonetheless. Many have nothing to compare them to. Some of these dogs spend more time looking for their handlers than they do hunting. There are also MANY tremendous non-trial hunting dogs that can go bird for bird with the best. I am just saying that because they are non trial dogs who hunt does necessarily mean they are good.
There is one part of Brad Harter's original article - the one that started this debate - that concerned me more than the reference to meat dogs finding more birds. That is the part where he describes a place where the plantation staff knew there were bevies and they altered course to spend more time there but with very little bird work during the trial. Harter explained that lack of bird work away as the area still being part of the breakaway and these are "all-age dogs." He implies that all-age dogs should not be expected to hunt at the beginning. This attitude is one of the changes in some trial circuits that I disagree with. The traditional trial dog was expected to hunt birds in one situation: when its feet were on the ground. The original Amesian Standard said that a dog must "at all times keep uppermost in his mind, the finding and pointing of birds for his handler." It reads "at all times."
The "range is sine qua non' stuff and other factors concern me.

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by Dirty Dawger » Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:37 pm

"Range" is not the distinction between an AA trial dog and a foot handled hunter. Range for the most part, is determined by a smart dog that adjusts to the habitat/terrain. "Independence" is the requirement of the competitive trial dog.
The reasons are many but at the front, it is the fact that gait/pace are attractive attributes within themselves. Beyond that, they are REQUIRED because a trial is performed within a time frame - whether it be 1/2 hour or 3 hours. As such, you need to get to the birds while under judgement, obviously! Add to this that it might be in your best interest to get to said birds before your brace-mate. You can appreciate how this changes the dynamics.
That trial dog still handles but you need a competent handler in the saddle to ensure he does so, right on the cusp of extremes because that big cast he took could lead him to that limb find! If he has a few of those and all else is in order, you have a contender.
If you have this in your hunter, you are likely very upset, hoarse, and ready to have a heart attack! And, if you have to hack and whistle that dog to ensure you go home with him at the end of the day, you may as well leave your shotgun at home! Wild birds won't handle too much of that - at least grouse around here won't.
There's something out there for us all. That said, to say field trial dogs are not good hunters makes no sense. Trial dogs aren't supposed to "hunt" by a hunter's definition any more that a hunting or gun dog is a good trial dog by a trialer's definition.
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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by gundogguy » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:51 am

Dirty Dawger wrote:
I Trial dogs aren't supposed to "hunt" by a hunter's definition any more that a hunting or gun dog is a good trial dog by a trailer's definition.
+1 Very good. The only thing I would add is this, I seen many field trial rejects make really nice hunting dogs, but I have never seen a hunting dog reject make a nice field trial dog.
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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:18 am

gundogguy wrote:
Dirty Dawger wrote:
I Trial dogs aren't supposed to "hunt" by a hunter's definition any more that a hunting or gun dog is a good trial dog by a trailer's definition.
+1 Very good. The only thing I would add is this, I seen many field trial rejects make really nice hunting dogs, but I have never seen a hunting dog reject make a nice field trial dog.

That statement is probably mostly true as a generalization. However, there are quite a number of field trialers who hunt their field trial dogs as well as quite a number of hunters who field trial or test with their hunting dogs. There are, as mentioned, a number of hunters who do so, very successfully over field trial "rejects".

One size does not fit all. There is a vast difference in what a western chucker hunter may need in their dog and what an eastern preserve hunter may need, to be successful. There is a difference between what an open all age trialer needs in a dog as opposed to a Northeast area walking shooting dog trialer needs in a dog, to be competitive in their respective arenas. There is an even bigger disparity between the open all age trialer's needs in a dog and those of a master level hunt test participant. And yet...there are dogs of the exact same breed which can do any and all of these things well enough to keep their owners happy and involved.

Fortunately, there are a wide range of situations and a range of talents and abilities in our dogs where just about every kind of dog can be successful and do what it takes to please their owner.

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by RLF » Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:14 pm

The definition "range is the sine qua non" for an aa dog comes right from the standard written in the guidelines booklet. And I have some some rejected hunting dogs become good trial dogs. Ch. Pioneer Train Jake was one.

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by weimdogman » Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:47 pm

Interesting read. Recognized a number of posters who are still active.

I haven't hunted behind field trial dogs,but have had the pleasure of seeing some titled akc,navhda, and nstra dogs do well.

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by Sharon » Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:57 am

Could you please post the link to that thread Sir? I can't find it. I think my posts don't go back to 2015.
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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by RyanDoolittle » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:41 pm

Sharon wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 11:57 am
Could you please post the link to that thread Sir? I can't find it. I think my posts don't go back to 2015.
I believe he is talking about this one.

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Re: FT dogs not such good hunters

Post by Idylwyld » Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:36 am

For those who are interested. I suggest a good read on this subject. William Browns thoughts remain quite pertinent.

https://www.amazon.com/Field-Trials-His ... 0498025543

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