The Importance of Hunters

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The Importance of Hunters

Post by Legband » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:49 pm

This is Pretty Amazing!

A blogger added up the deer license sales in just a handful of states and arrived at a striking conclusion:

There were over 600,000 hunters this season in the state of Wisconsin ..
Allow me to restate that number: 600,000!

Over the last several months, Wisconsin 's hunters became the eighth largest army in the world.

(That’s more men under arms than in Iran. / More than France and Germany combined.)

These men, deployed to the woods of a single American state, Wisconsin, to hunt with firearms,
and NO ONE WAS KILLED.

That number pales in comparison to the750,000 who hunted the woods of Pennsylvania
& Michigan 's 700,000 hunters, ALL OF WHOM HAVE RETURNED HOME SAFELY.

Toss in a quarter million hunters in West Virginia
and it literally establishes the fact that the hunters of those four states alone
would comprise the largest army in the world.
NOW-
add in the total number of hunters in the other 46 states.
That is millions more.

________ The point? _______________________________________
America will forever be safe from foreign invasion with that kind of
home-grown firepower!
Hunting... it's not just a way to fill the freezer.

It's a matter of national security.
***************************************
That's why all enemies, foreign and domestic, want to see us disarmed.
Food for thought, when next we consider gun control, whether you agree with it or not.

Overall it's true, so if we disregard some assumptions that hunters don't possess the same skills as soldiers, the question would still remain...

What enemy army of 2 million
would want to face 30 million, 40 million, or 50 million armed citizens???
For the sake of our freedom, don't ever allow gun control or confiscation of guns.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by asc » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:55 pm

Got that e-mail last year.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Neil » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:28 pm

I am a fair hand with a gun, and have a safe full of weapons; but I would be helpless against an arnored personnel carrier, let alone a tank. Even a poorly trained squad with full auto weapons and a light machine gun would infiltrate my semi-fortified home in minutes, and that is if I had advanced warning, in a suprise attack it would be seconds.

Believing that the small arms allowed to US civilians is a deterrent to modern armies is wishful thinking.

From what I have read and seen on TV, I might be an even match for zombies up to 20 at a time. But my supply of ammo is not endless.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:08 pm

Neil wrote:I am a fair hand with a gun, and have a safe full of weapons; but I would be helpless against an arnored personnel carrier, let alone a tank. Even a poorly trained squad with full auto weapons and a light machine gun would infiltrate my semi-fortified home in minutes, and that is if I had advanced warning, in a suprise attack it would be seconds.

Believing that the small arms allowed to US civilians is a deterrent to modern armies is wishful thinking.

From what I have read and seen on TV, I might be an even match for zombies up to 20 at a time. But my supply of ammo is not endless.
Think what you will Neil, but that is the exact reason that the Japanese didn't attack our home land. There is so much more to an armed conflict than just the sophisticated armory we see on the screen and much of it still comes back to foot soldier against foot soldier.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Neil » Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:58 am

The Japanese did not invade the US because of supply lines/logistics, and our standing army. But that was 70 years ago, we were defeated in the jungles of Vietnam as the Russians were in Afghanistan by guerrilla warfare, but look what drones, aifcraft, artillery have done in Afghanistan today. We have done what the Russians could not.

I am not saying we wouldn't have a few hold outs in some very rugged country, where mechanized weapons can't readily opperate. I don't know about the rest of you, but my heaviest weapon is a single shot 30-338, the next is a semiautomatic. 300 win mag. I don't have a single LAW, not even a RPG. What do you have in your closet?

Are guns are important, but are not a deterrent to any country larger than Cuba.

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The Importance of Hunters

Post by Luminary Setters » Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:47 am

A good friend attended West Point and less than a dozen years ago was sent to the War College.

They analyzed various scenarios of armed invasions of our soil. In all cases he said the major cities would fall, but rural America would provide enough support and buy enough time for the forces to regroup and persevere.

Keep in mind the source is a combat experienced general.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by BigAl » Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:46 am

Interesting even if only academic..as to the what can I do with my "only" weapon..
The answer is as simple as our behavior in World War 2 when we dropped a liberator behind the lines for the resistance The Liberator was simply a single shot 45 caliber pistol crudely made with only a handful of rounds in the grip design for a single shot use yeah idea was as simple as shoot a German soldier and repurpose his weaponry for your own cause no different now... You take out a soldier and you have all of his equipment at your disposal

Real conversation however should simply remain that in the 2nd Amendment thinking amongst other purposes was designed to ensure that our government behaved for the population could resist

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:26 am

Neil wrote:The Japanese did not invade the US because of supply lines/logistics, and our standing army. But that was 70 years ago, we were defeated in the jungles of Vietnam as the Russians were in Afghanistan by guerrilla warfare, but look what drones, aifcraft, artillery have done in Afghanistan today. We have done what the Russians could not.

I am not saying we wouldn't have a few hold outs in some very rugged country, where mechanized weapons can't readily opperate. I don't know about the rest of you, but my heaviest weapon is a single shot 30-338, the next is a semiautomatic. 300 win mag. I don't have a single LAW, not even a RPG. What do you have in your closet?

Are guns are important, but are not a deterrent to any country larger than Cuba.
I am sure you know more than the Japanese General who testified as to why they decided not to invade. I know I sure don't know so I will just ignore everything I read now that I have the facts.

Ezzy

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Neil » Sat Apr 05, 2014 8:08 am

There is no reason to get snippy over a simple disagreement over unprovable predictions.

And I think it shows intelligence to examine the statements of even experts.

Please answer this question, how many rounds of centerfire ammo do you have on hand?

I have a bit less than a 1,000 rounds (not including shotgun target loads), which I figure is more than most upland hunters.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:23 am

ezzy333 wrote: I am sure you know more than the Japanese General who testified as to why they decided not to invade. I know I sure don't know so I will just ignore everything I read now that I have the facts.

Fuel supply, difficulty of maintaining a realistic presence on many fronts, colonizing America thru attack not being their focus, sheer size of America, widely separated coastal areas and.... Midway are some of the reasons that the Japanese avoided the U.S. mainland during the war years.
The famous "behind every blade of grass" comment attributed to Yamamoto, or whomever it was???, is always recalled but the above six reasons are much more realistic reasons.
Actually, the comment sounds a bit like Hollywood.
Not to say that an invasion of the American mainland was not considered but I suspect the japanese felt disruption and destruction at Pearl accomplished enough where they saw their focus....risk vs. reward vs. a backyard.
However, they did have difficulty enough in the Aleutions with Castner's Cutthroats ...so, I expect a lot went into the decision not to invade, commonsense being foremost.
Best not to assume only one reason nipped the idea in the bud...or before.

Hard to get "Hunters" to agree these days, let alone other Americans...not sure that a Red Dawn movie scenario would be likely but...WOLVERINE!

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:11 pm

Would be interesting to know why they went to war with us since they had no intention of invading our country due to logistics. Even more interesting why the Generals would mislead us after they surrendered.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Ninevehn » Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:24 pm

It takes more than a gun to make a soldier, and it takes more than lots of guns to make an army. I'm all for the 2nd amendment, and I hunt, but hunters aren't an army, and it's an odd comparison to make. The police force would be a closer, and more credible, threat to an invading army. And really, it's two oceans and the greatest navy the world has ever seen that keep American soil safe.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Neil » Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:44 pm

From the Japanese perspective they wanted to stop American/European expansion into the South Pacific and Southeast Asia and no plans to occupy the US, but most suspect that a lie. After they gained full control of the Pacfic they would have shipping to solve the supply line logistic. Plus not every US soldier was in Africa and Europe, we still had a considerable home guard, that were much better prepared than hunters.

Most of the physically fit cilvians you believe stalled a Japanese invassion had already been conscripted into the US Armed Forces.

So Ezzy, if you won't answer your ammo supply question, what do you guess the average hunter has on hand?. I guess it considerable less than is expended in a platoon level 5 minute fire fight.

But hey, if the anti-gun crowd believe hunters are keeping foreign armies at bay, I will go along.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:49 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Would be interesting to know why they went to war with us since they had no intention of invading our country due to logistics. Even more interesting why the Generals would mislead us after they surrendered.
Why Japan went to war with the United States has been debated by far more knowledgeable minds than mine for many, many years with little resolved.
But, I would say it might have involved a view of their own future and future needs necessary to exist, and some of the Japanese leader's attitudes themselves, rather than simply wishing to invade and take over the.... sea to shining sea.
However, it is in the nature of many nations that if successful at war, stopping is not always easy to do.
If you discount the logistics and practicalities present at that time in the face of Japan's wartime reality then....I have nothing to say to address that level of certitude.

I do suspect that an enemy, a losing enemy, a destroyed enemy might well wish to mislead it's victor, I probably would....but, I don't not claim to be an expert in the Japanese mindset, the military mindset or the mindset of a vanquished foe.
Perhaps, a "field of grass" analogy was an easy idea for Yamamoto??? to sell to others or to believe...himself.
Perhaps, it was a positive nod of acceptance to that victor...if Yamamoto was a better man than one such as I.
Perhaps, one believes what is most convenient to believe....then or now.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:38 pm

Neil wrote:From the Japanese perspective they wanted to stop American/European expansion into the South Pacific and Southeast Asia and no plans to occupy the US, but most suspect that a lie. After they gained full control of the Pacfic they would have shipping to solve the supply line logistic. Plus not every US soldier was in Africa and Europe, we still had a considerable home guard, that were much better prepared than hunters.

Most of the physically fit cilvians you believe stalled a Japanese invassion had already been conscripted into the US Armed Forces.

So Ezzy, if you won't answer your ammo supply question, what do you guess the average hunter has on hand?. I guess it considerable less than is expended in a platoon level 5 minute fire fight.

But hey, if the anti-gun crowd believe hunters are keeping foreign armies at bay, I will go along.
I not once told you what I believe. I just reported what went into the official documents of the time. I will admit I have a tendenacy to believe the actual people involved more than my peers in this case since I know none of us had any knowledge of what went on in the time of our youth. I may have a slight advantage over most of you since I was old enough to remember all of the news that came out during the war. But I will have to admit even with that there was zero information about what the Japanese were thinking other than controlling the islands so they could have bases to reach further towards our country. And we fought despertly to keep them from controlling them as we needed them for the same reason. But, though as I said, I was old enough to remember all of it first hand, I never knew all of the things you guys do. And don't suppose I ever will.

Ezzy

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:50 pm

:D Hopefully, no one questions Stonewall Jackson's decision to continue his after dark flanking action at Chancellorsville which did ultimately lead to his death and so to the fact that he was critically absent at Gettysburg. Some believe his presence in command would have turned that battle and, possibly, the Civil War.
I doubt it but I don't know as I was not alive then....any folks alive would likely have made the papers.
Fingers crossed the question of Jackon's absence in Pennsylvania also does not arise. :D

Regardless, being from present day WV, Stonewall was likely a squirrel hunter and those hunting genes are undoubtedly still present should the need arise to defend hearth and kin. :wink:

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by DonF » Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:35 pm

Neil wrote:The Japanese did not invade the US because of supply lines/logistics, and our standing army. But that was 70 years ago, we were defeated in the jungles of Vietnam as the Russians were in Afghanistan by guerrilla warfare, but look what drones, aifcraft, artillery have done in Afghanistan today. We have done what the Russians could not.

I am not saying we wouldn't have a few hold outs in some very rugged country, where mechanized weapons can't readily opperate. I don't know about the rest of you, but my heaviest weapon is a single shot 30-338, the next is a semiautomatic. 300 win mag. I don't have a single LAW, not even a RPG. What do you have in your closet?

Are guns are important, but are not a deterrent to any country larger than Cuba.
Hey, we were not defeated in Vietnam. What happened was our own government wouldn't let us fight! from that point on, our wars have been about nothing but politics. Turn the American military loose on anyone of them and keep the politicians out of it and it's game over very soon after it starts!

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Neil » Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:08 am

You do not have to live it to know history, in fact there is good bit of the 60 - 70's that is very foggy for me and I was very much alive if unaware. We must rely on historians.

Tried to find the " - rifle behind every blade of grass" attribution without success.

Anyone have facts that it was said? And is true? We will do better in protecting our gun rights with the truth.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by DougB » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:02 am

Or the Japanese didn't have the desire to conquer the US, or the means to do it:
http://www.warhistoryfans.com/reason-fo ... 52362.html
1-Absolutely not going to cooperate with the navy, at least not easily (japanese Army-Navy rivalry was extreme, they fought each other constantly). That would mean that one of the key points of any long range invasion like Hawaii or US would be poisoned from the start -no interbranch cooperation meant the operation would be a disaster from the start.

2-already heavily commited both in China, Burma/India, and New Guinea. There was a hefty manpower reserve in Manchukuo but neither the Imperial staff nor the Army staff wanted to weaken that force too much because they wanted it to act as a deterrent against possible Soviet agression. The Japanese Army without taking large units out of Manchukuo-which was politically impossible to pull off, would've had no resources to mount a successful large scale invasion in the US Mainland.

3-Lack of proper amphibious resources. The japanese landings at the start of the war were doing against unprepared enemies, and using barely adequate ships as amphibious transports. To land in USA would be very very different than landing on, say, Legaspi. The scope of the operation would be much different, the ammount of troops to be landed ,too, the distances from the Japanese supply sources (the mainland) would be all the way across the pacific meaning enormous travel times for the supply convoys, and Japan had not enough ships to keep such a invasion supplied.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Nutmeg247 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:24 pm

WWII aside, I just don't see the idea of hunters as a reserve army as selling well, in terms of promoting hunting. Spreading familiarity with shooting sports could make the armed force's job easier in terms of producing soldiers, but they are two different things. The constitutional and cultural arguments are, for me personally, more persuasive. Even the ecological and environmental arguments.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:15 pm

Nutmeg247 wrote:WWII aside, I just don't see the idea of hunters as a reserve army as selling well, in terms of promoting hunting. Spreading familiarity with shooting sports could make the armed force's job easier in terms of producing soldiers, but they are two different things. The constitutional and cultural arguments are, for me personally, more persuasive. Even the ecological and environmental arguments.
Hunters being a militia when needed is exactly what the constitution says.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Nutmeg247 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:51 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Nutmeg247 wrote:WWII aside, I just don't see the idea of hunters as a reserve army as selling well, in terms of promoting hunting. Spreading familiarity with shooting sports could make the armed force's job easier in terms of producing soldiers, but they are two different things. The constitutional and cultural arguments are, for me personally, more persuasive. Even the ecological and environmental arguments.
Hunters being a militia when needed is exactly what the constitution says.
Speaking solely as a friend, that 2d amendment talks about a well regulated militia, not about 45 year old hunters with shotguns and bolt action rifles that might do ok sniper duty but that's it. I honestly think that most hunters would wash out of basic training. I think that disconnect is part of why, at a gut level, the idea of hunters as a reserve army, in my opinion, is not a great sell to people who don't already support hunting. I am also often wrong.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by cjhills » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:29 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Nutmeg247 wrote:WWII aside, I just don't see the idea of hunters as a reserve army as selling well, in terms of promoting hunting. Spreading familiarity with shooting sports could make the armed force's job easier in terms of producing soldiers, but they are two different things. The constitutional and cultural arguments are, for me personally, more persuasive. Even the ecological and environmental arguments.
Hunters being a militia when needed is exactly what the constitution says.
Depends on whose interpretation you choose to believe. Hunters being a militia is a joke. The two are not even remotely the same. The first thing the U.S. Army taught me was a whole different way to use a rifle and that you are part of a team.
My 5 shot bolt action deer rifle and one or two boxes of ammo are not going to be much of a deterrent to a well armed and trained militia.............................Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:59 pm

There was not much sport hunting ongoing in America at the time of the Constitution....there was subsistence hunting and basic survival....with the skills developed for each by necessity.
One might even say that hunting for food then, other than close to a large population, comparably, might have been a bit different in difficulty and approach as today.
Today, few hunt for subsistence and fewer still find survival from attacks from various quarters with their hunting rifles or scatterguns less of a daily driver.
I reckon the framers of the Constitution may have been working within their own reality and may not even recognize a grouse hunter in a U.P. popple stand.
And, considering that many hunters today fret ad nauseum over the lightest boot or the correct load for a pheasant or....kibble pro and con, I do wonder how the average, and aging, hunter would easily morph into the soldier, sans extensive training and conditioning, when push came to trigger pull.
I reckon there is some Walter Mitty thinking going on and some gun rights folks ...push that thinking for their own needs, membership roles and agendas.

Gun rights of many measures are very and vitally important, gun skills should be wider taught than they presently are, hunters fill a needed role in and for society but to think that an invasion imbroglio on the corner of Elm and Third will be settled by duck or deer hunters...I find that a bit optimistic.
Even folks pushing ideas with which we agree can be...manipulators.
WE should all think well past an Elm and Third end game.
imho

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Neil » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:04 pm

Ezzy is absolutely unquestionably right. The brilliance of our Costitution is its modern applicability and the Supreme Court fully agrees. No one suggests that the 1st admenndment does not apply to TV, radio, and the internet, yet it was written in the time of the crude printing press and quill pen. The printing press is to television as the musket is to an assult rfle.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:13 pm

I think every rifle is an assault weapon, since assault is an action and a rifle can't assault anything by itself. that means the assault is what you do with a rifle and assault is what we do with every hunting gun we have. Too bad our people in Washington don't realize just how far off base they really are when they call a rifle an assault rifle by the way it looks.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Neil » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:28 pm

Actually I was using the military definition of assault weapons, meaning a full automatic. Congress has infringed on our gun rights granted by the second ammendment since the 1938 and we have allowed the slow march to outright ban and confiscation.

Most don't know we can own a full auto weapon today, but the Class 3 license and transfer fees are in effect a prohibitive tax and infringement.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:24 pm

You are right but I can't get too upset if they keep them out of a lot of peoples hands.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Meller » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:11 am

Neil, they have proven that they don't have to confiscate our weapons; all they have to do is take away the means to shoot them.( like they have displayed by making it impossible to get Ammo, or the components to reload)

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by birddogger » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:49 am

Meller wrote:Neil, they have proven that they don't have to confiscate our weapons; all they have to do is take away the means to shoot them.( like they have displayed by making it impossible to get Ammo, or the components to reload)
How did they make it impossible to get ammo or reloading components? Just curious.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by crackerd » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:46 am

Nutmeg247 wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Nutmeg247 wrote:WWII aside, I just don't see the idea of hunters as a reserve army as selling well, in terms of promoting hunting. Spreading familiarity with shooting sports could make the armed force's job easier in terms of producing soldiers, but they are two different things. The constitutional and cultural arguments are, for me personally, more persuasive. Even the ecological and environmental arguments.
Hunters being a militia when needed is exactly what the constitution says.
Speaking solely as a friend, that 2d amendment talks about a well regulated militia, not about 45 year old hunters with shotguns and bolt action rifles that might do ok sniper duty but that's it. I honestly think that most hunters would wash out of basic training. I think that disconnect is part of why, at a gut level, the idea of hunters as a reserve army, in my opinion, is not a great sell to people who don't already support hunting. I am also often wrong.
Ezzy might rejoinder that it would depend on who's doing the washing. (Or the butchering. Or the banking.) They don't "do" hunting in the UK, they do roughshooting (and "Dad's Army" maneuvers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V3SqxUomwk ) ...

Bill T., ten-hut!

MG

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:55 am

You folks are almost all missing the point with this discussion...especially as it relates to the second amendment to the constitution.

The fact of the matter is that it is our OWN government that we need to be afraid of and in fact it is our own government that is deathly afraid of an armed, informed citizenry, because an armed informed citizenry is more than capable of executing an "ARAB spring", right here in the good 'ol USA.

Governments are bureaucracies and bureaucracies are ALL about CONTROL. They are not about individual liberties. Bureaucracies only ever seek to impose limits, restrictions and restrict individual initiative, through regulations, fines, penalties, deliberate inaction, as well as covert and overt threats and intimidation. Bureaucracies NEVER seek to INCREASE individual freedoms because individual freedom of expression and action is the very antithesis of the bureaucratic mindset.

The folks that are hanging on to their guns and stockpiling ammo and reloading components are driving the control freaks in Washington absolutely bonkers.

That is how it should be.

RayG

You may be sure that many, many of the federal agencies are terrified ofn the recent actions by several states to decriminalize marijuana use and possession. There has been a concerted effort to, in effect, deny the rights of citizenship to tens, no, to hundreds of thousands of people in this country for something that is no more criminal or harmful than smoking a cigarette or cigar and no more dangerous(and perhaps less so) than have a good belt of whiskey.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by birddogger » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:53 pm

Excellent post IMO Ray!

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Sharon » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:02 pm

Not to get off topic Ray , but your thoughts on marijuana are not completely correct.

Just as some are prone to alcohol addiction , ?/10 are prone to marijuana addiction with paranoia. I was a teacher/drug addiction counsellor at the jail for 20 years. Those ?/10 were the ones I saw.
It's also one more cause of impaired - driving fatalities , but THC levels can't be measured at the road side - cigarettes seldom cause road fatalities.

We in Canada are going to be watching how it goes in your "marijuana -for -all - allowed States". I predict there may be some future regret in those States.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the ... cle613202/

http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/teen ... 1103071676

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:30 pm

Sharon wrote:Not to get off topic Ray , but your thoughts on marijuana are not completely correct.

Just as some are prone to alcohol addiction , ?/10 are prone to marijuana addiction with paranoia. I was a teacher/drug addiction counsellor at the jail for 20 years. Those ?/10 were the ones I saw.
It's also one more cause of impaired - driving fatalities , but THC levels can't be measured at the road side - cigarettes seldom cause road fatalities.

We in Canada are going to be watching how it goes in your "marijuana -for -all - allowed States". I predict there may be some future regret in those States.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the ... cle613202/

http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/teen ... 1103071676


I have little doubt there will be problems as we see them already. And the facts you are stating is what I have heard from the doctors that end up treating the individuals and most state without exception that it is a gateway drug to more serious addictions. We will see.

Ezzy

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by birddog1968 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:38 pm

Are alcohol and tobacco gateway drugs? What about canned air......

Best thing a society can do is raise its children right....the rest sorts itself out that way.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by birddogger » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:22 pm

This is probably all correct but I think the point is that alcohol is more addictive and causes more accidents and fatalities than marijuana ever has or ever will. And if pot is a gateway to hard drugs, then the same could be said for alcohol but yet it is legal. But just to be clear, I am not defending marijuana, only trying to make a point. I have drank alcohol for a lot of years but I am not addicted nor do I drink and drive and it hasen't caused me to use other drugs. Some people just have an abusive personality and will always find something to abuse whether legal or not, while the majority will use good judgement and be responsible. This all of course is just my opinion and thinking on it. But when I complimented Ray on his great post, I was referring to the main part of the post.

Charlie

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:49 am

birddogger wrote:This is probably all correct but I think the point is that alcohol is more addictive and causes more accidents and fatalities than marijuana ever has or ever will. And if pot is a gateway to hard drugs, then the same could be said for alcohol but yet it is legal. But just to be clear, I am not defending marijuana, only trying to make a point. I have drank alcohol for a lot of years but I am not addicted nor do I drink and drive and it hasen't caused me to use other drugs. Some people just have an abusive personality and will always find something to abuse whether legal or not, while the majority will use good judgement and be responsible. This all of course is just my opinion and thinking on it. But when I complimented Ray on his great post, I was referring to the main part of the post.

Charlie
Charkie, I agree with everything you say except about the gateway to hard drugs. Alcohol is a completely different substance that react totally different in the body from what I have read and been told. It has no connection to other drugs while pot does and it does in many cases lead to hard drug use. You can't prove any of this by me as I am just repeating what the records show.

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Post by birddog1968 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:22 am

Alcohol abuse causes disease in every major organ in the body and is physically and mentally addictive... That bout wraps up its status as a harmful drug. Like any substance including candy there is use and there's abuse.

How many kids start by sneaking alcohol from parents or friends parents cabinet.... Many. Just like kids start by huffing its easily accessible. To assert alcohol and tobacco aren't ground level gateways is to be intellectually dishonest about the reality of where kids start to experiment. To say they don't alter the mind too is rubbish.

Tobacco trips the same receptors and chemicals to addiction as heroin.

Ever hear of an angry pot smoker beating his wife and kids LOL

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Meller » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:43 pm

Boy has this gotten off topic, about time to close this one!

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Neil » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:15 pm

Meller wrote:Boy has this gotten off topic, about time to close this one!

Or we could get back on topic.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Sharon » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:34 pm

one more post , then get back on topic.:)
..................

Depends on the person's definition of "gateway", and complicated.

Weed is illegal where I live. Kids who are smoking weed , feel they are above the law. This kind of thinking will often lead to harder drugs - NOT the weed , but the mindset of the kid.

Where it is legal, good kids smoke it also to fit in . . They don't move on to harder drugs.

Then you have the kids prone to addiction of several things . Addiction means you need more for the same effect. These kids want a bigger high, so move on to harder drugs. The weed didn't do it; the addictive gene did it.

Google " Marijuana and schizophrenia " sometime. Lots of new research being done in that are - seriousness is directly co related with WHEN the kid starts.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by Sharon » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:43 pm

from the O.P.

"For the sake of our freedom, don't ever allow gun control or confiscation of guns."

I appreciate/admire all the Americans do for ensuring freedom for others in this world, but the quote is hard for me to understand. In Canada we a count on our military to maintain our freedom as a nation. Explain to me why the second amendment in your constitution is voiced so often. Our Bill of Rights gives us : "life, liberty, freedom of security " , but I never hear that used in context with gun control .

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts ... 1.html#h-1



( Hope I haven't offended anyone with my post.)

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:57 pm

Because it has been shown many times throughout history that the first step needed to have your government decide to take over the country is to disarm the citizens. And why? It has led to no advantage to the people who have been disarmed. I think the whole concept comes from the word freedom and a government of the people. In other words the only true freedom is for the people to make their own decisions and not have a government telling the people what they can and can not do. That principle is what has led this country to status it now holds, but it is slipping away quickly with more and more government interference and more and more unnecessary regulations.

Ezzy

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by ChetB » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:14 pm

I inherited a few firearms from my dad and over the years I've added quite a few others to my "collection". I never once made a purchase that I considered to be an exercise of my 2nd Amendment rights. The guns I own are for sporting purposes only, purchased with the same mind set I might have used had I been buying a set of golf clubs. This does not mean that I don't take the 2nd Amendment seriously, nor does it imply that I'd never use my sporting arms in order to protect my family and property against a legitimate threat.

At age 62 I can still shoot pretty well, but I know my guns are sometimes a lot more accurate than I am! I'm not sure how I'd perform against an armed invasion ... :)


Chet

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by birddogger » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:21 am

Sharon wrote:one more post , then get back on topic.:)
..................

Depends on the person's definition of "gateway", and complicated.

Weed is illegal where I live. Kids who are smoking weed , feel they are above the law. This kind of thinking will often lead to harder drugs - NOT the weed , but the mindset of the kid.

Where it is legal, good kids smoke it also to fit in . . They don't move on to harder drugs.

Then you have the kids prone to addiction of several things . Addiction means you need more for the same effect. These kids want a bigger high, so move on to harder drugs. The weed didn't do it; the addictive gene did it.

Google " Marijuana and schizophrenia " sometime. Lots of new researc being done in that are
This makes more sense and I agree with. Now I will stay on topic. :lol:

Charlie
- seriousness is directly co related with WHEN the kid starts.

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Re: The Importance of Hunters

Post by aulrich » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:39 am

Quantity has a quality of it's own.

Look at the trouble a few extra combatants in Iraq and Afghanistan caused think of 600k extra in one state even 300k if only half take up the cause.

Mind you an EMP or two over the eastern sea board and 70% of the US will be thrust into conditions like the walking dead so it won't take an invasion.

Once the Taliban are back in control of the "Stan" in a year or 5, we will see just how useful the lives spend there have been. We had to try, but I don't think it will take.

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