Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

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oilcan
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Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by oilcan » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:17 pm

I would like some opinions on this.
So with the season ending i have been debating on how to finish off my GSP this coming summer-fall.
Currently he is steady to Flush ( most of the time) and has a natural retrieve he is 10 months old now.
No trials he will be a foot hunting dog only.

So what are the Pro's and Con's of getting him steady to shot?
For a Hunting Dog what are you guys doing?
I am pretty new to this so i want t to make sure i make an educated decision and do it right the first time.
He is a smart dog with very good bloodlines so i would like to get the most out of him that i can but i'm
not sure of all the benefits of getting him steady to shot.
Thanks

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by deseeker » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:42 pm

It is safer for the dog if he doesn't go until the shot. If he goes with the flush there is a chance he might be real close to the bird when your hunting buddy gets excited and takes a shot at the bird :evil: . Also if he doesn't go until the shot----he won't be chasing after a hen and runs up a bunch of roosters out of range :cry: Also if a bunch get up at the same time, if he stands until the shot, he'll be able to pick out the bird that falls --- instead of chasing and being totally focused on the first bird out of the grass. Also if he stays to the shot, there is a good chance the will stop to flush on birds that just pop up---since you trained him to stand still on flying birds until a gun goes off.

I like to have them stand thru the fall and wait until they're sent for the retrieve, but that is just me. Train it however you'll be happy with it 8)

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by roaniecowpony » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:29 am

To the shot. You'll be busy shooting. If there are birds in a covey that hold thru the first flush, you don't want your dog moving which would cause them to flush when you're gun is empty. This happens often with quail and chukar.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:43 am

Could this question maybe be clarified a little ? Steady to flush is when a human or a dog flushes a bird .
Steady to shot can be a bit different depending upon how you think or maybe more importantly upon how the dog being trained thinks.

Many dogs are steady to shot but not too many of those dogs are steady to the possible result of a shot ....the fall of game. I've had several dogs that would not run in if they heard a shot fired but I have also had several dogs that would run in or at least attempt to if the shot brought down a bird.

So...do you want steady to shot or steady to shot and fall of game ?
My own preference is for the steadiness to flush to continue until the handler gives the dog a definite command to either retrieve or to hunt on.

Bill T.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by cjhills » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:37 am

If you train steady to flush it is a small step to train steady to shot and fall. It is very easy to let a dog you hunt a lot regress. Some people think the dog will lose wounded birds if he waits to be sent. I don't. As was said it is much safer to have a steady dog and if you run multiple dogs you need some order or things get out of control...................Cj

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Del Lolo » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:44 am

Steady to Flush
Steady to Shot
Steady to Fall
Do not go until sent

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by JKP » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:05 am

IMO...if you are going to hunt with other dogs, its better to be steady to WSF...dogs pulling on a bird together or worse, like dogs getting in a tiff over the retrieve is possible. Adog should wait for the tap or the command to retrieve.
If you also work your dogs in the blind this is particularly useful....nothing worse than a dog charging to a fall in the decoys and flairing ducks that might have come in. Training in both situations reinforces the other.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by roaniecowpony » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:05 am

Del Lolo wrote:Steady to Flush
Steady to Shot
Steady to Fall
Do not go until sent
This!

My understanding of the term steady to wing and shot is that the dog doesn't move until sent by the handler.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by polmaise » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:22 am

oilcan wrote:I would like some opinions on this.
So with the season ending i have been debating on how to finish off my GSP this coming summer-fall.
Currently he is steady to Flush ( most of the time) and has a natural retrieve he is 10 months old now.
No trials he will be a foot hunting dog only.

He is a smart dog with very good bloodlines so i would like to get the most out of him that i can but i'm
not sure of all the benefits of getting him steady to shot.
Thanks
oilcan,
Steady to shot can be done in a day! steady to flush can take weeks if not months. It has been mentioned already that 'steady to the ''shot bird after the flush'' is more advanced and takes a little longer.
Del Lolo 's process is the same and sound progression for all the 'Gun dog breeds,but since you would like to get the most out of the dog?..Why not go that 'extra mile'?....let me prelude a step in Del Lolo's chain?... 'command to flush' ? then you have your 'Polished' hunting dog that is steady on point ,flushes on command, stops to the bird flushed ,stops to the shot, retrieves on command ,and delivers to hand :wink: ....Your shooting get's better and the bag fills up nicely !
Sounds like you should be all done come next season ! all you need now are some Birds ........... all the best with your young dog.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Grousehunter123 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:41 am

My opinion is that if you are a WILD bird hunter you will quickly allow your dog to digress from a completely steady to wing, shot and fall dog to something less than that FOR PRACTICAL REASONS. Plus, if you hunt with other people who do not have completely broke dogs you will be frustrated all the time if you are trying to keep your dog STW&S and fall.

If you hunt mostly preserve birds, without other dogs, really like to train...then go as far in his training as you'd like.

I have a 3yr. old completely STW&S and fall , force fetch trained setter that will stand there big and tall on pigeons or throw down birds in a field all day until I send him to fetch. It takes about two times with the E Collar to get him back there after a season of hunting. However during hunting season I let him go at the shot, he sometimes goes at the wing because I don't have the time or desire to think about correcting him or I'd lose my focus and miss the bird. Dogs learn the difference between WILD BIRDS AND WILD BIRD HUNTING CONDITIONS vs. training birds and training or "preserve hunting" conditions.

Plus, I don't care what others say, a dog that can get right on a cripple pheasant or grouse exponentially increases your chance of recovery. I can't stand to lose a bird. It's much more important for me to recover a bird than do what it takes to MAINTAIN the polish on the dog while hunting. You asked for opinions....that's mine. Good luck in your pursuits.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Del Lolo » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:06 am

polmaise wrote:Del Lolo 's process is the same and sound progression for all the 'Gun dog breeds,but since you would like to get the most out of the dog?..Why not go that 'extra mile'?....let me prelude a step in Del Lolo's chain?... 'command to flush' ? then you have your 'Polished' hunting dog that is steady on point ,flushes on command, stops to the bird flushed ,stops to the shot, retrieves on command ,and delivers to hand :wink: ....Your shooting get's better and the bag fills up nicely !
I agree -- But a lot of people don't want their pointy dog to flush, so that's why I didn't mention it.
I do want my dogs to flush on command.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:53 am

I hunted for many years over dogs that would stand for as long as it took for me to get there...but that were off to the races at the first flap of the wings. I have always heard that type of behavior called "staunch".

Never had a problem, but mostly I hunted alone or with folks I trusted implicitly to take safe shots. I was always VERY careful around stocked quail because they often did not get more than about 5 ft. off the ground and would sometimes drop back down while still in gun range.

For wild birds such as grouse, I do not think having a dog go with the flush is in any way a problem and may improve recovery of birds, since it was not at all uncommon for the dog to return with a lightly hit bird that I was sure I had missed.

Getting a dog to the level of "staunch" was pretty easy. Keeping them there was similarly easy. Keeping a dog steady to wing and shot, is, by comparison...a major PIA. If you want your dog steady, you are ALWAYS in training mode. It can and does interfere with the enjoyment of the hunt because you are always watching the dog an always have to be ready to make a correction.

How do I know this with such certainty? Simple. I trial my dogs these days and they MUST be 100% reliably steady to wing and shot. Soooo when I take them hunting, there is always a training component and I can never ...just let it slide. I must stop the hunt and go into training mode if the dog makes a mistake. That can definitely take away from the enjoyment of the hunt.

if anyone tells you that they can just go out and hunt their dogs and they will stay steady to wing and shot with no problems...I gotta see that dog.



If I hunted a lot with other folks, I do believe I would want my dogs to remain standing until the gun was fired...for safety sake.

RayG

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by DoubleBarrel GunDogs » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:56 am

You have several good answers here. Training a dog to stop at the shot is not all that difficult provided it already has a learned cue to stop. For example if you blow your whistle and the dog stops at the cue, you can use that to introduce the new cue. Blow the whistle right after the bang. Pre cue - cue. Do this with consistent repetition and the dog will anticipate that you are going to blow the whistle (cue him to stop) when he hears the shot.

The challenge arises when a dog is allowed to repeatedly go on or retrieve after the shot. Then the flush of a bird followed by a shot will become a very different cue. The shot can easily become a cue that trips the dogs trigger so to speak.

So in a round about way, I'm saying that I feel it's better to teach the dog to sit or stand at the sound of gunfire. Rather than give the dog a choice in the matter. To me its a matter of maintaining control of the dog.

Nate

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by roaniecowpony » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:59 am

Everyone has a particular idea of how they want to hunt. That may include only taking one or two birds out of a covey or only hunting certain birds in certain cover, always hunt alone, hunt with othe. dogs, etc.. Some people are happy with a dog that breaks on the flush and just happy the dog found birds and didn't move until the hunter got there. Its all a question of what you expect.

Frankly, I had never been around dog that was steady to wing or shot before I got my dog. In the two years I've had her ive had to run drills to reinforce/retrain steady to wing and shot a few times. It hasn't been a difficult thing to do and has been rewarding.

I think I had to make the transition from 'more birds in my bag' being the goal, to 'the dog work being rewarding' as an integral part of the overall hunting experience enjoyment. that wasn't hard for me to do, because I had been hunting antique guns in small bores for quite a while. Those guns limit your bag to some extent even with proficiency. So the concept that i could enjoy a day in the field even if I didn't maximize the birds in my bag was something I had already made the transition to. It's not for everyone. I'm out to have fun. For me it's a combination of a lot of things

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by slistoe » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:55 am

Dogs are steady - or they aren't. The question here is whether to leave the dog staunch or steady it.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by deke » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:58 am

Not sure what it is called, but I like my dog to take off for the retrieve as soon as he spots a bird that is hit. I got lucky and mine has done this naturally, and I am sure we recovered more crippled pheasants because he is right on them when they hit the ground.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by birddogger » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:00 pm

Interesting thread and all good posts. And so far everybody has been very respectful with no insults or arguments. It all boils down to personal preference and what you want/expect from a dog. Hunting is secondary to dog work for me now days but having a completely finished dog does take time and on going commitment. That is if you only have one dog. If you have multible dogs........ :D

Charlie

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by ChetB » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:34 pm

There's a lot of good points being made here. As for my perspective, when I'm hunting with my dog, I'm a lot less concerned about whether or not she does it by the "rules" than I am that we don't lose a cripple. For what it's worth, I've put a lot of birds in my bag that would probably have been lost if I had insisted on her strict adherence to her STW&S and fall training. Hunting isn't training. Since every bird presents its own challenges, I'm more apt to let her make the choice than I am to correct what someone else might see as a fault or mistake. I'm not hunting her to win any style points and I don't really care what anyone else might think. My hunting partners are my two grandsons (ages 21 and 14) and we review the safety issues before we get out of the truck. We always come home with birds in the bag, my dog enjoys what she's doing and I really don't think it gets any better than that.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by roaniecowpony » Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:35 pm

Deke
I saw some videos of Hickox's and Lardy's labs trained to sit on the flush. I got some counseling from Hickox on how to train for it and got my lab to sit when I launched a bird. But I couldn't get it fully done. I was almost there. The idea is that on multiple flushes and kills the dog will mark them better. But running wounded pheasant are a problem all of their own. :wink:

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by slistoe » Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:07 pm

Those of you worried about the time delay on wounded birds realize that it is a moot point in this discussion and is not related to the steady question. Steady dogs go when told - a hunter does not need to leave them stand around waiting. You take a shot, see the leg drop and call "fetch" while tracking the bird for the second shot.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by polmaise » Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:27 pm

Slistoe has a good point! rather than a 'moot' one .
The time delay for release is relevant to the handler and the situation..The dog can't tell the time ,but a good one well trained will go on the command (or not).
Over here ,many dogs and handlers are working their dogs (picking up) where the Primary aim is to retrieve/find cripples ONLY ! These experienced dogs after a few seasons can 'pick out' a cripple in the sky far better than any person I have ever met.

Like has been said, if it floats your boat for whatever purpose you use your'e dog wherever in the world and it works for you then 'Amen' !
Agreed! Some very good posts on this thread from very experienced dog people.!
The OP ,asked a very good question ,and I suppose the answer would be ''How far do you want the dog to be steady to flush or shot''?.
I do know one thing!...When you see it work the way you want it , then that's what I would call 'Teamwork' 8)

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by roaniecowpony » Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:51 pm

To me, watching an upland dog and hunter work well together is a beautiful thing regardless of whether it's one of those tail challenged breeds or one that everyone knows is the best at it. :lol: :wink:

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by ChetB » Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:57 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:To me, watching an upland dog and hunter work well together is a beautiful thing regardless of whether it's one of those tail challenged breeds or one that everyone knows is the best at it. :lol: :wink:
Hmmm ... "tail challenged" and "the best at it". You just might be describing Miranda!

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by roaniecowpony » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:01 pm

:D

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by polmaise » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:05 pm

Of course we all love our own dogs :mrgreen:

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Sharon » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:12 pm

Steady to shot for safety but possibility of more lost birds if the dog can't go on the flush/shot.... particularly for duck shooting.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by slistoe » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:18 pm

Sharon wrote:Steady to shot for safety but possibility of more lost birds if the dog can't go on the flush/shot.... particularly for duck shooting.
So every retriever handler in the history of the game has had it wrong? There is nothing worse than an unmannerly dog in a duck blind.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by polmaise » Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:48 pm

Sharon wrote:Steady to shot for safety but possibility of more lost birds if the dog can't go on the flush/shot.... particularly for duck shooting.
Confused?
Why would the bird be lost?
If the dog has a nose' surely it can find a cripple,even if it 'swims'?......and even if it swims away?.....After all ..these hunting dogs can scent birds from 'quote' ..far far away from the handler?
when they are roaming in the gloaming hunting far and far a field quartering ground and then all of a sudden they find it!?...

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by roaniecowpony » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:32 pm

slistoe wrote:.. There is nothing worse than an unmannerly dog in a duck blind.
[/quote]

I thought there was nothing worse than BEING in a duck blind. :lol:
Last edited by roaniecowpony on Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by polmaise » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:03 pm

roaniecowpony wrote: I thought there was nothing worse than BEING in a duck blind. :lol:
Depends on the company :lol: :lol:

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Grousehunter123 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:10 pm

For what it's worth, my previous posts dealt with pointing dogs only.

For non-slip waterfowl retrieving there is no better choice than to train for steadiness to the shot and fall. A Non-slip retriever should sit unless and until another command is given: "free", "heel" or a "fetch"command. I see no downside whatsoever to that level of performance IMHO.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by slistoe » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:21 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:For what it's worth, my previous posts dealt with pointing dogs only.

For non-slip waterfowl retrieving there is no better choice than to train for steadiness to the shot and fall. A Non-slip retriever should sit unless and until another command is given: "free", "heel" or a "fetch"command. I see no downside whatsoever to that level of performance IMHO.
And FWIW, your previous comments had less to do with reality than they did with wishful thinking. Funny you cannot see the disconnect between your previous comment and this one - whether a duck dog or a grouse dog or a pheasant dog it is still a dog fetching a bird.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by deke » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:25 pm

roaniecowpony wrote:Deke
I saw some videos of Hickox's and Lardy's labs trained to sit on the flush. I got some counseling from Hickox on how to train for it and got my lab to sit when I launched a bird. But I couldn't get it fully done. I was almost there. The idea is that on multiple flushes and kills the dog will mark them better. But running wounded pheasant are a problem all of their own. :wink:

My pup wont sit on the flush, but he will freeze and watch the bird until it is hit. His big problem is definitely multiple flushes, big coveys of quail really screw with him, and it usually takes us a minute to find the birds that went down. Ran into the same problem in SD this year on pheasants all jumping at the same time and more than one going down, it was tough to get him un focused on the first bird, but in the end we only lost one bird and that was more my fault then his, I didn't like the fact he was chasing a crippled rooster into a private corn field when they were cutting the other end of it.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Sharon » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:32 pm

Obviously I didn't know what I was talking about. :oops: I knew I should never talk about retrievers.:)

To save face a little , I have read that more likely to have birds lost if a pointing breed has to sit until after the shot when hunting. Is there no truth in that?

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by birddogger » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:36 pm

Sharon wrote:Obviously I didn't know what I was talking about. :oops: I knew I should never talk about retrievers.:)

To save face a little , I have read that more likely to have birds lost if a pointing breed has to sit until after the shot when hunting. Is there no truth in that?
I think for some people it has to do with the type of bird being hunted.

Charlie

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Grousehunter123 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:43 pm

slistoe wrote:
Grousehunter123 wrote:For what it's worth, my previous posts dealt with pointing dogs only.

For non-slip waterfowl retrieving there is no better choice than to train for steadiness to the shot and fall. A Non-slip retriever should sit unless and until another command is given: "free", "heel" or a "fetch"command. I see no downside whatsoever to that level of performance IMHO.
And FWIW, your previous comments had less to do with reality than they did with wishful thinking. Funny you cannot see the disconnect between your previous comment and this one - whether a duck dog or a grouse dog or a pheasant dog it is still a dog fetching a bird.

Well, things were civil and not directed at individuals until you came along.

If you cannot see the practical differences between training for and having a non slip waterfowl retriever and an upland bird dog I can only conclude you are inexperienced.

Training for a "totally steady" N-S retriever is conducted in substantially the same environment as a waterfowl hunt. The transition from training dummies to dead ducks to shot fliers is darned near seemless to the dog when on a waterfowl hunt. On an upland bird dog training grounds (birds, objectives etc...) and the real thing are VERY far apart.

Training non slip retriever also includes hand signals for a dog already possessing tremendous marking skills. You have plenty of time to get your dog to the area of the fall. Try teaching an English setter to mark and take hand signals in the thick foliage of the grouse woods.

With a waterfowl hunt the dog is sitting right next to you and your attention is on shooting the bird. You can even leash a young dog in the blind if you want. It's no big undertaking to keep the dog seated until you send him, relative to the effort to keep a pointing dog steady to wing, shot and fall on a wild bird it has found and pointed. The gentleman (RayGubernat) above gave a great explanation about his trailing needs vs. his hunting needs and explained it beautifully.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Del Lolo » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:31 pm

roaniecowpony wrote: I thought there was nothing worse than BEING in a duck blind. :lol:
The only thing worse than being cold and miserable in a duck blind is ----- being cold and miserable and NOT in a duck blind.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Neil » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:06 pm

I train all my dogs; pointing, flushing, and retrieving, to finished field trial standards because I can. I have no interest in debating the matter. If you can't or don't wish to, that is fine with me.

Oh, it is immaterial what other dogs do or don't do when in the field with mine.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Del Lolo » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:18 pm

I think the majority of folks that have hunted with Steady and non-Steady dogs will agree that a Standing or a Sitting dog --- will mark a fall better than a non-steady dog.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Grousehunter123 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:48 pm

Del Lolo wrote:I think the majority of folks that have hunted with Steady and non-Steady dogs will agree that a Standing or a Sitting dog --- will mark a fall better than a non-steady dog.

How does my dog mark in this?
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slistoe
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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by slistoe » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:32 pm

Grousehunter123 wrote:
Del Lolo wrote:I think the majority of folks that have hunted with Steady and non-Steady dogs will agree that a Standing or a Sitting dog --- will mark a fall better than a non-steady dog.

How does my dog mark in this?
By standing still and watching the bird?

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Grousehunter123
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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Grousehunter123 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:58 pm

slistoe wrote:
Grousehunter123 wrote:
Del Lolo wrote:I think the majority of folks that have hunted with Steady and non-Steady dogs will agree that a Standing or a Sitting dog --- will mark a fall better than a non-steady dog.

How does my dog mark in this?
By standing still and watching the bird?

I'm pretty new to this forum but I have to laugh my arse off at some of you guys. It's real easy to see on this thread alone who hunts wild birds by reading the posts.

It's entirely common to flush a ruffed grouse out 40 yards out from the dog. Half the time you only hear the bird go and never see it due to the foliage. This ain't an open field with a dizzied quail...LOL. It's a rare thing for a pointing dog to "MARK" a shot grouse.

"By standing still and watching the bird".....that's funny. :P

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by slistoe » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:11 pm

I'm sorry. I will try harder.

"How does my dog mark in this?"
By peeing on a tree?

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oilcan
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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by oilcan » Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:01 pm

Thanks for all the reply's.
You have given me alot of information to process and this is why i ask questions, when i was thinking steady to shot it didn't even cross my mind i might miss.LOL
I will do some more research but steady to release does seem to make alot of sense.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Neil » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:53 am

Grousehunter,

It is a bit arrogant to believe you are the smartest person on a forum and the only one with hunting experience.

I have never found ruffed grouse needing all that much marking, they are pretty fragile and do not tend to run after being shot, plus even dead they give off a good bit of scent. I believe them one of the hardest birds to hit when the leaves have not fallen, but one of the easist for a dog to retrieve, steady or not.

But I am happy to bring you laughter.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by KCBrittfan » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:32 am

Grousehunter123 wrote:
I'm pretty new to this forum but I have to laugh my arse off at some of you guys. It's real easy to see on this thread alone who hunts wild birds by reading the posts.

It's entirely common to flush a ruffed grouse out 40 yards out from the dog. Half the time you only hear the bird go and never see it due to the foliage. This ain't an open field with a dizzied quail...LOL. It's a rare thing for a pointing dog to "MARK" a shot grouse.
So if its not a ruffed grouse then it must be a pen raised dizzied quail???? There are plenty of wild birds other than ruffed grouse.

And yes, marking is often a valuable skill when it comes to retrieving WILD birds. I have also noticed that a lot of dogs mark the fall more accurately if they aren't moving. (Try hitting a golf shot then start running before it hits the ground -- I bet its a lot harder to find your ball than if you stand still and watch closely.) Over running a miss-marked bird can cost valuable time on cripples. The increased accuracy can be a game saver. Ultimately its up to personal preference and/or the particular situation, but don't assume that everyone with an opinion other than yours must only be hunting pen raised birds.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Wildweeds » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:13 am

I don't know exactly who coined the phrase "And fall" but whoever that was didn't know that broke to "Wing and shot" includes the fall.Broke to wing is a dog that will allow a handler flush but goes on the kill.A dog broke to wing and shot,includes the kill.As Mr. Ray claims it's a PIA to keep one good and broke,I've owned but just one dog that was automatic and didn't need any reminders on manners on wild game.I've owned a few that required little reminders.And some that just would go plum crazy if they saw fit to.The best analogy to it is if the dog is broke in training,the worst your looking at on real world hunting is a 3 hop chase before they stand and watch fly away once you have flushed the bird.If the dog is trained to just steady enough for you to flush,the backwards slide that can occur is the roading in/creeping/knock on the dogs part to move the bird.I had a female that was broke as broke can be in training,as she didn't fit the mold for a trial prospect I hunted her.I could easily keep her broke,I rarely wasted the effort to keep her that way,I could easily but it required talking to her,she ran e collarless for 8 years,she was that biddible,She would go with the shot,not before it.Plenty good enough for me.At worst a dog is going to regress in training habits,if you train for steady to flush the dog will regress to knocking birds/moving in full blown chase as you approach.A broke steady dog will always let you flush it's birds/have the birds flush of their own accord as you approach.They will also stand and watch same said birds fly off if the birds get nervous and wild flush if your not in range to actually kill one.I'm a pheasant guy primarily,secondary is valley quail,with the mindset of shooting pointed birds up close rarely get nervous about whether or not the dog can mark them,I have to count some before the trigger gets pulled,it's been quite some time since I had a wounded runner.I attribute that to lots of killing and moreso to lots of clays busting in the offseason.I prefer turning clay to dust than birds into dirt.Meaning I kill birds for the dogs good behavior/work,not for my ego whereas limiting is concerned.I feel alot of cripples that aren't recovered are due mostly to poor dog work and even poorer risque shooting.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by roaniecowpony » Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:31 am

Amazing thread. Maybe we should all abandon this forum, start a new one, and give it to the 2or 3 guys that always drag a thread down to personal denigration.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Grousehunter123 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:40 am

Oilcan started the thread asking for opinions and what others do relative to his planning for upland hunting steadiness training, or not, with his young GSP. I gave him my opinion from a hunting perspective.

The discussion took a turn from what the OP asked about which included guys posting about waterfowl hunting, which is not what the OP asked about. I gave another post to the OP clarifying my distinction between the two (upland / waterfowl). I then was on the receiving end of a personal barb from Slistoe out of the blue calling me "out of touch with reality and wishful thinking".

I guess folks like to sling arrows more than help answer a guys question.

Neil, I see you're in Central Arkansas. I was born and raised in Fort Smith. I am well acquainted with upland game bird species in addition to the Ruffed Grouse having large family land holdings in Arkansas and Oklahoma from where I gained my initial hunting experience. I used the Grouse hunting example to show how ridiculous it is in rebuttal to the posts that a hunter can "see a leg drop" and then call fetch with the bird in flight......or that a pointing dog can mark (which is done by eyesight) a wounded grouse in the thick woods from which they are found. (It's rare in the grouse woods).

Wildweeds, I initially used the term steady to wing, shot and fall. Here's why...steady to wing and shot have varying meanings in the minds of people. You're assuming that your definition of steady to wing and shot is everyone's definition and it's not. I included the term "fall" to help further define the terms for the discussion and assistance to Oilcan, the OP. For example: Staunch means that the dog stays pointing until the hunter produces the bird. The bird is now on the wing; some dogs are allowed to break at this point, some are required to remain in place at this point. The gunner now shoots the bird; some dogs are allowed to break at this point, some are required to remain in place at this point. The bird is now falling and hits the ground (fall); some dogs are allowed to break at the fall, some are required to remain in place at this point.

I HAVE a staunch dog who is also steady to wing, shot and fall. I'm not against them. RayGumernat gave a perfect real world explanation of the practical side of keeping a TOTALLY BROKE dog that way throughout a hunting season. He's dead nuts right. In the case of many or most, it's not worth the trouble and effort to those of us who have our dogs at that level (in training or for trials) to sacrifice "the hunting experience" to be constantly in "training mode" while hunting as many days (which is a bunch) as some of us do. This is information that was directed at the OP (Oilcan) to help HIM in his decision making process...... NOT SOME OF YOU BONE HEADS!! Why are some of you so thin skinned and defensive?

I see the OP has his questions answered. I'll NOT be responding any further on this thread.

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Re: Steady to flush or Steady to shot ?

Post by Del Lolo » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:48 am

As I said before, I want my dogs steady to F/S/F in all circumstances.
With that said, there can be instances where a dog breaking on shot might be alright, such as a lone Rooster.
But, what happens to marking ability when you are hunting early season grouse -- while the birds are still in Family Groups -- and you have the chance to shoot two birds (or maybe even 3 birds).
If a dog breaks and is chasing after the first one shot, not only might it put a dog in danger, but the dog is almost for sure not going to be able to mark that 2nd (or 3rd) bird.

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