Decline of Field Trials

Post by **topher40** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:29 pm

So far I have read more complaints that people have about horses, trailers, trucks than anything. These are ALL misconceptions! Misconceptions are the true reason for the decline in the sport. People that come into it thinking one thing with a closed mind, and not willing to do the work to make it work for them is paramount. I started years ago in trials and I was a walker, walked so many braces and put down so much boot leather its almost unimaginable. PEOPLE that cant get past this fact are to lazy to put in the work to make it work in the first place. Folks that complain about the "good ole boys club" don't have the dogs to compete in the first place because they weren't willing to put in the time it takes. Usually the "good ole boys" are the one that are out there training more that anyone else, that's why they win. You should take pride in the ability to beat them with a superior animal, if your willing to put in the work. Quit your bitching and get out there and do something. Come on folks, I have been beat by rank amatuers with no horse, trailer, fancy job, plenty of kids, no time, no money, and they lived in town. They put in the work that I didnt.............

mm · Post by mm » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:08 pm

I don't know the other types of trials so I cant comment. I go to akc and af trials. It is true it would most likely be a combination of things but I point out the horse thing because without one at some trials you cant run. Sure you can walk but is a new guy going to walk at a horse trial , I am not sure but I wont. In the east there is a walking stake in a lot of trials for Brittanys and they seem to be doing well.
mm

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:44 pm

Jim&Rooster,

You could not have said it better young man.

A few random thoughts from someone who has lived a few years, made a lot of mistakes and who will make more.

We always find time for things we have a passion for.

We always seme to find the money for the things we really want.

We always excel at the things that we love to do.

Field Trialing is not necessarily a by product of years of hunting. Hunting and dog training two different things.

Field trials should not be just about winning. It's a culture and life style.

Just an opinion,

mm · Post by mm » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:50 pm

The original post asked what was keeping new people away, opinions were offered. Now we are being called morons who don't put in enough work or walk enough. Maybe the answer to the original post is right there.
mm

bigoak · Post by **bigoak** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:24 pm

Hey,I want to know where Sharon's buying pigeons for $1.50!

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:28 pm

Without upland bird hunting opportunities, there is no avenue for a father to introduce his children to the thrills of upland hunting, encourage them to come afield with dogs and ultimately to light the fire of bird hunting over dogs in their souls... that it takes to carry on.

I don't believe it. Spent 4 weeks this year in ND (retired now) and if I saw 2 trucks on any one day that was a lot. There are 100,000 acres of public and unposted land in JUST the town I go to. I moved hundreds of birds on more than a few days. I don't doubt that the good old days were better but there is still enough game and places to hunt.

What is telling to me is the average age of the few hunters I do see. That's what will spell the end for everything...the mounting political correctness that hunting is wrong. Unless we get young men and women involved in the shooting sports and the habitat business (DU, Pheasants Forever, etc), its not just trialing that will be under pressure.

But I don't believe for a second that its a lack of opportunity. Granted, you may have to travel and budget some money but the hunting is still there. I took a buddy hunting for a day this year on public land 10 minutes outside of town in ND and we moved 50-60 birds in a couple of hours.

gundogguy · Post by **gundogguy** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:20 pm

Neil wrote:
PntrRookie wrote:
whatsnext wrote:If it is lack if desire than what do you think is causing this lack of desire ?
No one introduced them, or helped them get started, laziness, electronics, expectations of instant gratification, less and less hard work ethic, "everyone" wins, no loser mentality, etc.
What he said.

And I think in general we expect the finer things in life from a young age. My son, who is a pretty rugged outdoorsman, would noy even consider putting his family in our first home, which was best described as rustic. And even though he won a horseback open stake with his puppy on his pony when he was 8 years old, he did not continue to trial. In his case, other interests, he has never been particularly competitive, and most importantly he did not want to be away from his family or drag them unwillingly along as I did.

All sports seem to wax and wane; not many people playing billards these days and few played soccer in my youth.

But I think the main reason is the decline in those with pointing dogs, or at least those that feel a need to brag on them.

So if the trial game is hurting, as far as numbers are concerned. Where will today's young hunters learn about standards of performance?
Or will good enough become good enough! Who will be teaching soon to be breeders about style and class? Drive, bird finding ability, marking, handling, mouth! Or will good enough be good enough! Will the concept of broke dog go by the way, will a delivery to hand become passé, will dogs that can manage multiple marks be a distant memory.
If human beings are passionate about their training they will also have a fever to push dogs to the limit of their abilities, without trials that not going to happen.
Trials or Canine achievement is the juice that force handlers to think of better ways to communicate with the dog.
Look around at all the equipment that is available to the bird dog and gundog and retriever community, if it was not for the trialer/trainer very little of it would get to press. Without trialer/trainer endorsement either formally or informally the e-collar would not have gotten of off the ground. Who can say because of trialers what the next "Big Thing" will be in dog training or breeding.
I doubt it come from video game players and couch potatoes.

Remember all you hunting dog guys and gals if it was not for the sacrifice of the trialer and all the obstacle that are in their way you would not have the "great dog" you may have today. I have never seen a hunting dog reject go on to become a field Trial champion. Though I have seen a great number of field trial rejects go to become fine hunting companions. Field Trialing is the laboratory for canine excellence.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:31 pm

topher40 wrote:So far I have read more complaints that people have about horses, trailers, trucks than anything. These are ALL misconceptions! Misconceptions are the true reason for the decline in the sport. People that come into it thinking one thing with a closed mind, and not willing to do the work to make it work for them is paramount. I started years ago in trials and I was a walker, walked so many braces and put down so much boot leather its almost unimaginable. MORONS that cant get past this fact are to lazy to put in the work to make it work in the first place. Folks that complain about the "good ole boys club" don't have the dogs to compete in the first place because they weren't willing to put in the time it takes. Usually the "good ole boys" are the one that are out there training more that anyone else, that's why they win. You should take pride in the ability to beat them with a superior animal, if your willing to put in the work. Quit your bitching and get out there and do something. Come on folks, I have been beat by rank amatuers with no horse, trailer, fancy job, plenty of kids, no time, no money, and they lived in town. They put in the work that I didnt.............

This post says it all. It is exactly what I mean by arrogance. These are not complaints about the cost of trialing they are facts of life. They are not misconceptions they are reality. None of the people coming into trialing today give a rats butt how far you walked or how many braces you walked or anything you did they are just not interested in the old days.
Calling everybody that disagrees MORONS that are to lazy to work is really going to attract a lot of people. Telling them they are bitching because they don't want to spend half their income on trialing is ridiculous. Most are just stating their opinion about what the problems are. Maybe they shouldn't be allowed to do that. That seems to be a pretty common theme with the oldtimers.
How many handlers have you seen win a horseback who walked. For that matter how many people have you seen win a decent sized trial who train their own dogs. Again I ask how many of your children trial.
Try explaining to a member of the younger generation, who is working two jobs to keep the wolves at least outside, why he should spend a good share of his income to have some old fat guy on a horse tell him he has a good dog. Or not. Then decide who is the Moron and please don't tell my sons or their friends, who don't run dogs,that they are lazy or you may be very sorry. Have a nice day...........................Cj

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:38 pm

Bounty_Hunter wrote:
slistoe wrote:Hey, I retrieved a couple of hundred birds myself one year. Waded armpit deep while breaking ice for a couple of them. I can't really recall if I made any unnecessary sounds as the water rose up though. Do I get a doggie cookie? I remember eating a Milk-Bone once when I was about 10 years old - maybe that is why I was so good at it.
Did you get any worms from eating it ?...

I don't know. Since my younger brother got impacted bowels from a severe pinworm infestation all us kids were on regular deworming protocol. No way any worms were living in my system at that age. But not likely since I went with the safe processed food instead of the raw guts.

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:22 pm

I just got my first bird dog a little over 2 years ago. The only thing I knew was that I wanted to go chukar hunting. I suppose I knew that field trials existed but I had no idea where they were, who put them on, how to go about entering, what was required, etc. It was one of the "good old boys" that helped me start to train my pup (who contacted me via this forum) that introduced me to field trials via a local puppy stake and I was hooked. I'm not rich (I'm a grad. student so I'm exactly the opposite, in fact) but I showed an interest and folks have been willing to help me get started. I guess my point is that a lot of young people don't have a clue that any of this is going on. Where would they find out unless they knew someone who did it? I might suggest that a little bit more effort be made to get word out about our sport via social media, exhibitions at sportsman shows, fliers advertising upcoming trials in venues where interested folks might see them (sporting goods stores, feed stores, etc.), and offering "Hunter's Gundog" stakes where people can enter their mix breed or unregistered rescue dogs and get their foot in the door. We can whine about people not participating but unless we're willing to do a little work to recruit those who might have an interest the demise of our sport will be our own fault.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:53 pm

CJ your right when you say the younger Gen DON"T care about what happened yrs ago & they don't want to here about it.My question is why don't they care my gen did care about our parents gen & what their life was about & traditions.
My gen cared about the history of our ancesters & their way of life unlike the young of today who only think of them selves & NOW! & how fast they can get it.They don't care about their neighbors it's all about me & what I want.
They won't leave the house in the summer it's TOO HOT,winter it's TOO COLD, they are a bunch of whiny cry babies expecting some one to give them what ever they want.That can't handle loosing or not getting the job they want,they want to work less a make more they want they want they want.WAh Wah Wah Boo Hoo!

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:59 pm

bigoak wrote:Hey,I want to know where Sharon's buying pigeons for $1.50!

I'm with ya on that. I live in Ontario too but I'm paying $4 a bird

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 7:01 pm

mm wrote:The original post asked what was keeping new people away, opinions were offered. Now we are being called morons who don't put in enough work or walk enough. Maybe the answer to the original post is right there.
mm

Well said.

Fun dog · Post by **Fun dog** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:01 pm

Back in the 60's dog mushing was a way of life with many people. Dogs got people from village to village, hauled freight, trapped, hauled firewood and water. Life didn't go on without a good dog team. Of course when you have man involved you must pit what you have against another to see just who has the best. That meant that a couple times a year the dogs and drivers would put on a race to find out just who really had the best, fastest, and strongest dog team. Towards the end of the 60's the snow machine was taking over and dog teams were becoming a thing of the past. But then racing started to take off. Now in this new century, there are very few people trapping and using dogs for utilitarian purposes, but there are lots of races. You can race every weekend all winter long. The dogs are better bred, stronger, faster, and healthier. These race dogs have the ability to run a trapline or haul water, but it's not likely a team bred just for trapline will be able to compete competitively in a race. As with Field trials though, sleddog racing is becoming a middle age and older sport, though we do have good junior programs. The reason, it's just too expensive to keep a lot of dogs and get to the races.

Now I say all that as I can see a parallel between races and trials. And I wonder, does a person really need to be a hunter to trial their dogs? Sure actual hunting will make an excellent bird dog, if you can find birds, but maybe we should target those that have a hunting breed of dog that don't have the wherewithal to hunt. With one dog you can still trial or hunt test. I enjoy the training of the dog more than I enjoy the actual hunt. Hunting is a lot of work and not always very productive. For us we have to hike up a mountain a couple hours before we even begin to get into bird country. But I can buy birds to train with, even if I do have to pay $15. per bird. And I can keep a few pigeons in a small area to use for training. My first birddog was a GSP sleddog that I took to a training day with a friend a couple of times. I had so much fun that I kept on training. The dog had so much fun doing what it was bred to do that she now refuses to be hooked to a sled and she was a good sleddog at one time. The idea of involving children and grandchildren is excellent. Get them excited about working with the dogs. Find so many children that you can put on Junior Hunt tests or trials. Those will be the future of the sport. This summer I'm going to make it a point to involve my grandson. He's a better shot than me anyway!

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:08 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:CJ your right when you say the younger Gen DON"T care about what happened yrs ago & they don't want to here about it.My question is why don't they care my gen did care about our parents gen & what their life was about & traditions.
My gen cared about the history of our ancesters & their way of life unlike the young of today who only think of them selves & NOW! & how fast they can get it.They don't care about their neighbors it's all about me & what I want.
They won't leave the house in the summer it's TOO HOT,winter it's TOO COLD, they are a bunch of whiny cry babies expecting some one to give them what ever they want.That can't handle loosing or not getting the job they want,they want to work less a make more they want they want they want.WAh Wah Wah Boo Hoo!

I guess that depends on how you raised your kids. Most of the younger kids I know work hard for their money. It is not that they don't want to know about their history. It is that they don't care to hear some old wind bag tell them how tough things were back in the day. The " I had to walk 10 miles to school uphill both ways" don't get it. Every generation thinks they were better than the next. How many of your kids trial. If none why not. I deal with young construction people every day and I like the kids I know. they want things that I couldn't have. But I want things my parents didn't have. It is the 21st century. If you want them in dogs or trialing give a reason..........................Cj

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:11 pm

In our club we have seen several new young(er) families begin to trial! I guess we just keep encouraging them, inviting them, make sure when they do show up they have fun! Maybe their dogs aren't going to set the world on fire, maybe they will never finish a FC title... but just maybe they will!

Some are avid hunters who wanted something more to do with their dogs, some just plain ole love their dogs and think they are the cats meow. All good. Some of the dogs have surprised us and are doing pretty darn nice jobs..... Several have bought horses and are dragging old beater 2 horse trailers around, some beg and borrow a horse to run their pup.

Lack of gallery horses is a problem. We used to run gallery wagons. At our nationals this year we got the old gallery wagon running at Branched Oak.. well, what is left of it. Filled it up with those who didn't have a horse and they had a blast. They can't learn to appreciate our sport sitting in the parking lot. Sometimes we need to go backwards ourselves to get moving forward?

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:31 pm

Gertie wrote:I just got my first bird dog a little over 2 years ago. The only thing I knew was that I wanted to go chukar hunting. I suppose I knew that field trials existed but I had no idea where they were, who put them on, how to go about entering, what was required, etc. It was one of the "good old boys" that helped me start to train my pup (who contacted me via this forum) that introduced me to field trials via a local puppy stake and I was hooked. I'm not rich (I'm a grad. student so I'm exactly the opposite, in fact) but I showed an interest and folks have been willing to help me get started. I guess my point is that a lot of young people don't have a clue that any of this is going on. Where would they find out unless they knew someone who did it? I might suggest that a little bit more effort be made to get word out about our sport via social media, exhibitions at sportsman shows, fliers advertising upcoming trials in venues where interested folks might see them (sporting goods stores, feed stores, etc.), and offering "Hunter's Gundog" stakes where people can enter their mix breed or unregistered rescue dogs and get their foot in the door. We can whine about people not participating but unless we're willing to do a little work to recruit those who might have an interest the demise of our sport will be our own fault.

Right on Gertie!! I think Hunter Stakes run at the end of an AKC trial with a modest entry fee and light salting in the field is a great way to help convert a hunter after bird season.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:47 pm

I guess we should pay them to trial like some parents pay them to get GOOD Grades,! If they want to trial they will if not then no use trying to bribe them into it.

I have young people ask me to go hunting with me & come to my deer & turkey hunting camp to spend a few days in the middle of the woods,no electric.no air,no running water.
I have a sister & brother I have been around since they were in grade school now 22 & 30 they love spending time with me & hearing about how I walked to school up hill both ways as you say they have some respect for their elders.
I guess it's how THEY were raised!!

Donnytpburge · Post by **Donnytpburge** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:58 pm

I was taught by my elders that every man deserves
The right to earn respect based on there actions and work
Ethic, not their color, AGE, or their family!

You can't judge people by their generation, you got to take them one at a
Time.

Db

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:13 pm

If the Field Trial community has a desire to reverse a negative trend then a little "marketing and business savvy" needs to be used. Beating your chest and having a F-em attitude will not get the job done. I don't think that any of us wants to attend trials that can't get the entries to have a major. I think the F-em group will not enjoy standing in a field with a few people feeling very exclusive and proud of themselves and their "station in life" when their are not enough dogs to compete. I will bet that the old guard and the F-em group all started on foot and graduated to a horse when they got more "into" the sport, had more discretionary income, and an empty nest. Even wealthy folks will not start by buying horses, large trucks and trailers with living quarters until they "test the waters" and decide if they like the game or not. Just remember the smaller the number of entries the larger the cost in entre fees. The higher the price, the market shrinks. What comes to mind Is the old "Member Owned" Private Club mentality. Be exclusive, not inclusive and have the very rich pay more. (It does not work!) Old guard Private Clubs are dying a slow death and this sport will too if the thinking does not change.

That's my story and I'm stickin to it!

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:16 am

Perhaps those with the desire and the means who have lived long enough to recognize bullying behavior just tire of being brow beaten and told what idiots they are which does nothing but erode their benevolence toward their dogs participation in the sport. Alot of these folks live with blinders on and do not seem to have the capacity to think outside of the box..which is a shame. That is not to say that all of the eggs are bad because they certainly are not.

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:35 am

Donnytpburge wrote:I was taught by my elders that every man deserves
The right to earn respect based on there actions and work
Ethic, not their color, AGE, or their family!

You can't judge people by their generation, you got to take them one at a
Time.

Db

+1

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:52 am

I think several of you are demonstrating why young people don't get into field trialing..... it takes thick skin to play competitive games, If you can't take a general observation on the internet for what it is, then you might not have anyplace in the sport of FT.

I have met Vonzepplinkennels, at a Field Trial in Ohio once (whether he remembers or not

), he was as welcoming and as helpful as anyone else I have met at a FT. You can't take things you see on the interwebs so seriously or youll run yourself in circle trying to catch your tail.

Jim

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:06 am

Interests cycle in popularity, sometimes they decline on a slow track...all driven by the realities and practicalities that each new year brings for each individual.
Time, gasoline, a learning curve in any new sport and an understanding that dem dogs that win or place are good, are experienced and will always get the longest look from a judge go to those cycles and declines.
Personalities, cliques, more draws for every family dollar and the time it takes to pay "dues" are involved as well.....maybe even the decline of wild birds upon which to train, like Bonasa U.

Fwiw, the very few FTs I have attended, just to see, found the folks very welcoming and helpful.....much the same as the 27 yard folks when I was on the 20.

whatsnext · Post by **whatsnext** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:13 am

Usually the people who say that the are fair and honest are the ones in most cases who will rob you blind.....

Luminary Setters · Post by **Luminary Setters** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:20 am

The field trial world needs to take heed of Gertie’s post. Field trial clubs, for the most part do nothing to reach young blood. There are plenty of young people that would love to pursue upland hunting, but having grown up in families that are one, two, or three generations removed from the sport-they just don't know where to go to find the opportunities to enter the venue. The field trial community as well as upland conservation groups need to use the modern tools that Gertie mentioned to reach out to them. The days are long gone when the marketing can be left to a picture of boy and a bird dog on a box of shotgun shells. Even golf had to reevaluate their and modernize their image to reverse the decline of the sport.

But as this thread and others on this board have shown, the field trial world needs to work on their image as well. It does little to help recruitment, when a heavy cloud of arrogance surrounds the most vocal ambassadors, and it only takes a few of them to run off the ones that clubs like Fuzznuts works so hard to recruit.

The youth of today are no different than the youth of the generation now screaming todays youth do not have any respect. There isn't a free lunch anywhere, and respect is earned, not given. If you're not getting, look in the mirror, because your not going to get it by telling them they are lazy and worthless. Taking the attitude of maybe we should pay them to run dogs” is the mentality that CJHills, Big Swill, and campGSP are referencing that runs the young blood away, and probably runs away a lot of old blood too. The clubs shouldn't throw tradition away, but they must allow the door to open for new traditions to be assimilated.

Its not the youth, technology, or money or changing times that is the demise. The sport is in decline because we have continued to do things the way our daddy’s daddy has done them, and now rather than jumping back on the wagon, we sit around and complain. Before the problem can be resolved, we must first be willing to accept responsibility for it.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:22 am

whatsnext wrote:Usually the people who say that the are fair and honest are the ones in most cases who will rob you blind.....

+1 If you have to tell people how honest you are,you probably ain't.
One thing that would really help would be the return of the gallery wagon. wouldn't have to be horse or mule drawn ,a four wheeler would work. cj

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:35 am

Anyone who says time, money, and logistics aren't a major reason for the decline is just lying to themselves. Not to mention there aren't a lot of walking trials out there. I still consider myself young, my wife and I got I to trials in 09 when I was 33 years old. The only reason we got into trialing was because we had a decent dog that we sent to a Pro to train, and because that Pro has been wonderful when we go to trials by letting us ride his horses to watch our dog run in the gallery, and for me to occasionally handle off his horses. Without that, we wouldn't be trialing. However, even with that, our dog isn't out on the circuit this spring because we have a new daughter, and her daycare is taking up all my trial money. Money and logistics of horses, travel to trials, etc is a huge issue for us. We dont live on a farm where we can just buy a horse and cheap trailer to go to all the trials. I have to work to afford trials, and I don't get to go to a lot of trials because I have to work. It's a double edged sword. I've always said we need to build our base in order to get people in the door. Go back to the aside and recruit guys with hunting dogs and enter them in walking hunting dog stakes. Set the hook with them, and they will eventually want to move up to HB GD trials , then AA trials, and then to AA Championship trials. Hook more people like my wife and I, and the sport will flourish.

BTW. My wife and I are looking into moving half way across the country, buying land for horses, and making a large investment into horses, trailers, trucks, etc . A big part of the move is to be closer to our trainer , being able to attend more trials, and getting our kids into it. Weove it, and given the chance, so will others in the younger generation.

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:36 am

This notion that sending somebody away with a "golden star" is the answer to make them feel all warm and fuzzy when they leave is absurd...and very offensive.

Luminary Setters post is excellent.

The odds are stacked against this sport now more than ever for one simple reason...the decline of the agricultural way of life. That way of life has to be maintained DELIBERATELY by those with a desire. Agriculture was the rule and it has now become the exception....In that decline there are side effects and unintended consequences...

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:54 am

Tooling wrote:
Luminary Setters post is excellent.

Luminary Setters, place holds a couple walking trials a year that tend to draw in a younger crowd. They have done a good job of making folks feel like they belong.

Jim

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:07 am

One of the problems that occurs to me is, "Field Trials" are not a business because no one has made it their business. It is a loose structure of good intentioned volunteers with different points of view. Could this dilemma be better addressed by AKC, AFTCA, AF? After all, they are major stake holders in this "cottage industry". My point of reference is the USGA. They understand the relevance of introducing children into golf. Golf provides many gateways into the sport to target different markets e.g. driving ranges, municipal courses, high end daily fee, resort courses and private clubs. Could AKC / AF help by altering their fees charged to local clubs based on the type of stakes being run? Could they offer help to the clubs to locate more friendly trial grounds? Can they use their clout with dog food companies and other related businesses to help support the local clubs. A president of a national pointing breed club once extoled the virtues of a major dog food company that donated thousands of dollars to national breed club each year. Maybe that money filters down to the local clubs but I have never experienced that when I served on the board at a local level. Maybe hunting and outdoor activities are not as popular as they once were, but the "dog" industry is growing by leaps and bounds and I am not sure anyone in this game has considered how to use it to our advantage.

The longer I have stayed with this sport the more I fallen in love with it's rich traditions and history but I believe we need to adapt and change with the times in order to survive. It's expensive and their needs to be more Gateways to get into it. I will add that I have learned an incredible amount from the "old guard" and "salty dogs" that give the sport a colorful charm.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:14 am

The AKC fees are pretty minimal really. An application fee of between $15-25 and $3.50 per dog ran.

Tooling · Post by **Tooling** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:55 am

jimbo&rooster wrote:
Tooling wrote:
Luminary Setters post is excellent.

Luminary Setters, place holds a couple walking trials a year that tend to draw in a younger crowd. They have done a good job of making folks feel like they belong.

Jim

Doesn't surprise me at all.

With respect to the "salty dogs"...make NO MISTAKE..these are the boys that know and these are the gents that you will learn the most from.

Freedom = opportunity and opportunity = the right to succeed which subsequently = the right to fail.

I tend to gravitate toward the salty dogs because the salty dogs will laughingly warn you that the great notion that you have concocted is a fools errand..they will then tell you the right way but if you insist they will just smile and tell you to have at it. During the course of your failure (usually rather epic) they will just stand on the side-line and enjoy the show laughing all the while...that's what friends are for. Pull off a clever stunt and succeed in spades and these same ol' salty dogs are your friends for life because they genuinely enjoy seeing somebody bust their butt to succeed...failure is the greatest teacher of all....keep your ribbon, it's not what I'm here for.

And then there are those that seem to need to be needed beyond any healthy limit that will hover over top of you nit-picking your every move...not cool.

I don't know any of you personally but there are a handful of regulars that I believe I would do just fine with. There are others that can just go ahead and keep their sport because I want nothing to do with "your" sport.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:07 am

JKP wrote:
Without upland bird hunting opportunities, there is no avenue for a father to introduce his children to the thrills of upland hunting, encourage them to come afield with dogs and ultimately to light the fire of bird hunting over dogs in their souls... that it takes to carry on.

I don't believe it. Spent 4 weeks this year in ND (retired now) and if I saw 2 trucks on any one day that was a lot. There are 100,000 acres of public and unposted land in JUST the town I go to. I moved hundreds of birds on more than a few days. I don't doubt that the good old days were better but there is still enough game and places to hunt.

What is telling to me is the average age of the few hunters I do see. That's what will spell the end for everything...the mounting political correctness that hunting is wrong. Unless we get young men and women involved in the shooting sports and the habitat business (DU, Pheasants Forever, etc), its not just trialing that will be under pressure.

But I don't believe for a second that its a lack of opportunity. Granted, you may have to travel and budget some money but the hunting is still there. I took a buddy hunting for a day this year on public land 10 minutes outside of town in ND and we moved 50-60 birds in a couple of hours.

Not everyone lives close to such bird numbers. Yes, you can budget and travel to hunt maybe once a year, but training a dog takes more then just a trip. Most folks don't live close enough to such an opportunity. I consider myself fortunate to live where I do and I still don't see those numbers and I still have to continuously train. Many folks live in cities and don't get to hunt or have places to train. It's that simple.

buckshot1 · Post by **buckshot1** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:16 am

I'll add that field trials in Colorado definitely aren't in decline. Just about every AKC weekend trial in our area had to close entries in 2013. All the derby and puppy stakes that I saw had 20 plus dogs. Everyone commented that it was the biggest influx of new dogs and owners that anyone could remember. I can't tell you exactly why AKC trials out here haven't declined, but I suspect the usual factors. There are plenty of walking trials for those who don't have horses. Even though none of the horseback trials have wranglers, people with extra horses are always generous about sharing their horses to those without. The judging (usually) seems fair to anyone who's objective. People won't keep coming back if you don't have competent judges and the placements don't make sense. Most importantly, there is enough wild bird hunting out here to keep people buying dogs.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:24 am

First off JimBo of course I remember you & I remember just about every one else I have met.I can't remember anyone that I really didn't like old or young but I owe no one anything & no one owes me & I don't like to be told that I owe you something in order to make you like me.I speak what I feel & don't candy coat anything to impress any one I'm certainly not rich or even close to well off.I only got started trialing about 9 yrs ago wanted to do it for yrs but family obligations kept me from it like it does others. I ,we my wife & I probably make less money then just about anyone else but we don't live high on the hog,we drive old vehicles,don't live in a big fancy home,don't entertain.My point is if you want to do some thing really want to do it you will find a way even if it means sacrificing in other ways.I don't like people that complain about everything & expect to be catered to if we have to bribe others into the sport do you think they will stay or really want to do it.I guess I no I know I was raised different then kids today,I was taught to stand up for myself,if some one bullied me I handled it on my own I didn't go crying to any one & you know what the bulling would end & I usually became friends with that person.I think kids today can't handle that today because nothing is ever their fault mommy or daddy take up for them so when trouble comes up they can't handle the pressure.That's the main reason we have kids taking guns to school & blowing people away the pressure makes them loose it.We settled that on the school grounds I got rid of it instead I never even thought about anything like that when I was in school & no one made a big deal out of a fist fight then.

IF you know me & like me fine but if you don't that's fine to just don't blow smoke up my butt for any reason.I like real people not phonies who pretend to be some thing they are not.There are plenty of people out there that have for got more about trialing then I ever will know.I'm relatively a newb but there is no reason for any one to lie about anything to me about any of it.When I first talked to my handler 9 yrs ago I told him straight up WE will get along just fine,just don't never lie to me.
We have since become friends & I hope that remains.Yes I am old & stuck in my ways & I don't like politically correct,the so called new world where nothing is ever wrong,& you can't say anything with out hurting some ones feelings,dang grow a pair or hang em up!

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:04 pm

I love it. Good post Ted, especially the comment about guns vs. fist fights and agree completely.

Charlie

mik · Post by **mik** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:11 pm

My only experience with field trialing was when we purchased our current GSP...The breeders promoted getting involved in NAVHDA trialing as a means of getting the best out of our new pup....I am glad they did!! I wasn't going to be sending my boy off for pro training, I was going to take the time and effort to learn a little bit and do the best I could to get him to be a good hunting partner for me and a family pet.....I joined the local NAVHDA chapter attended/participated in my first Test weekend before we had the pup old enough to run so that I knew some of what was expected of me and the dog.....He ran his Natural ability test the next Spring...he had a normal day in the field that day and was rewarded with 112 points and a Prize 1.....

For me, this was the crossroad to future trialing.....If I wanted to run this dog in more testing it would require more of my future free time and expendable income... I have other activities that I deemed more important than dog trialing....for example: this dog will never duck hunt. why would I want to take the time and effort to train him to do that if I could be using that time to do other things of more importance to me.....That's really what it came' down to for me....too many other things that take precedent vs what am I getting out of the free time and money invested....

I had no issues with the local trialing folks anymore than any other group of people (very helpful group). I have no shortage of upland birds or habitat where I reside. I have no shortage of work ethic, you put in the time if you want the result.
Also, I am middle aged, have a son who was 9 at the time and "helped" with training and came along and walked a few of the field training days, my father never hunted, I'm the only one of 6 siblings that hunts and I have been doing so for the past 19 years.

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:21 pm

I would think the decline would be due to the cost, time & effort spent. It's looking more and more like a 1%'s game. Me personally I lack the competitive nature for this type of thing. I would rather spend my time, efforts & resources taking my hound to wild places to locate wild birds. I think dollar for dollar a better education for the dog. I'm like the field trialer in sense though as I do get a charge out of watching my hound work and locking up on birds but I could definitely leave the competition, social aspect's or possibly the politics behind. My love for the bird dog way of life doesn't involve socializing, more boot leather with less talk.. However, find a way to keep going as I look to you who do trial to purchase my hounds from...

Ninevehn · Post by **Ninevehn** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:26 pm

So, Vonzeppelinkennels, when you were the age of the younger generation today, you didn't field trial either, but the reason that they don't is because they are so different from you? C'mon.

My generation came of age in the worst economic situation since the Great Depression. There are three job seekers for every available job, and young applicants are competing against experienced people who were laid off in 2008. Inflation adjusted, we are the first generation in a century that can expect to make less than our parents, and most of us can expect to need a healthy pile of tuition debt before we even get that far. Those reasons, more than any perceived laziness, are why my generation is not participating.

I mean, I like to hunt. I love dogs. I don't even have one right now, because I work two full-time jobs and live in a one-room apartment so that I can afford to get a degree next year. That's not lazy, that's just being in tough straits, something it sounds like you ought to empathize with.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:47 pm

Mik no disrespect to NAVHDA but it's not trialing it is testing trialing is competition testing is not.As far as Declining trials go every placement my dogs have were in 4 & 5 point majors but 1 & it was a 3 point major.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:52 pm

There are things about trials I don't care for but, they are a game, little more. A huge flaw with every venue is that their primary advertising as to trials, hunt test, clubs fun days ect is that it doesn't exist! We can go on line I think and find date's ect for coming trials but people that haven't been down that road never consider that. Club training days, hunt test's, hunter gun dog stakes could be advertised on bulletin board at places like Outdoor Sportsmen's, but they never are. In fact not retriever activities, NHAVDA activities, NSTRA, AF or AKC. If you want people to participate, they first need to know your there and what you do. I think it would also help to restructure the amature stakes. A person in their first year or so either compete with amateurs that have had many years as an amature or worse, amature's that have been placing and winning open stakes for many years. I have a friend that retire from trialing a couple years ago. He ran amateur and open stakes and ran lots of dogs at every trial. He is a former trainer years ago and claims to have finished 100 Fld Ch's. I don't doubt that number as he ran a lot of dogs. That is a sample of the competition for the first timer in an amateur stake.. That is counter productive. Far to many new people get scared off and intimidated by these "amateurs". The hunter's gun dog I've seen a couple times are a good start point but no advertising to speak of. An ad in the newspaper is not advertising, a bulletin board at sporting goods store reach's who your looking for. Let's say that people miss that also or decide to just show up and see whats going on. There are no signs indicating anything is going on any where. One NSTRA club I'm aware of does have signs out but the first signs are well away from normal traveled areas. So the people your looking for aren't being reached and when you do reach them, they can't find the grounds!

One of the best things I've seen in years is the running of foot handling stakes. The want the new guy's to participate, give they a venue they can better understand! Years ago when I had horse's I hunted my pointer's off horseback. But pay attention when you go hunting in your area to how the people in your area hunt, it's not from horse back. I know of exactly one person that hunts horseback, Eric Mauck. I know a lot of people with horse's that run horseback trials but don't ever hunt their dogs off horse's.

Horse's came into being to give pro's showing up with a string to run a break. You want to get rid of the pro's? get rid of horseback handling! Most the people on horse's ride gaited horse's and walking handler's can't keep up. The pace is supposed to be set by the walking handler but I have never seen a horseback stake slowed to accommodate to the foot handler. if I remember tight the rule say's, "within reason". Your blowing out all but the most competitive of newcomers. Then sit back and wonder why more people aren't coming into the sport. In fairness, i go out to watch a NSTRA trial now and then and it seem's they are filling their stake's but sem's their having a hard time sometimes getting them full. Now there's a reason they still can fill and I absolutely believe it's because handler's get to shoot their own birds. Stop that and NSTRA will go away! Times are hard for a lot of people and other's doing alright are doing so because they cut back here and there. the cost of trialing is high, always has been. But in NSTRA they get to shoot birds. In the rest they don't. I think the last NSTRA trial I went to, the entry fee was $50 per brace. Pretty close to what AKC cost's. To go to any trial there are travel expense's involved, food expense's ect. They are the same for each venue other than the NSTRA guy's don't pull horse trailers! When I did pull a trailer, my gas mileage went right through the floor. AKC and AF people view it as just a cost of doing what they like to do. And, usually a horseless handler can find a horse to borrow. But here in the NW, I notice I don't see wranglers any more. Probably just as well because a lot of the horse's wrangler's brought are herd bound, that can get real dangerous for a non rider. I didn't find it amusing at the time but do now. I judged a trial a couple years back and a horse was provided me. the horse was provided by a long time trialer some of you may know. He assured me that it was his grand daughter's horse and didn't have a stupid bone in it's body. But take away the other horse's and you found yourself on a very unco-operative herb bound horse! You can't provide horse's like that for people to ride.

I believe there are things that can be done to enhance trial,s and get new people in but not the way it is now. At least not the number's. a new person about a year ago, that I believe will stay around, commented after the first horseback brace he was in that he was going to have to get new horse's is he was going to do it. The problem is the pace is awful fast. The good news is the emergence of the walking trials. But the bad advertising and venue's to reach people have to change. if you want new people you have to find them, most are not going to come looking for you.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:13 pm

They won't leave the house in the summer it's TOO HOT,winter it's TOO COLD, they are a bunch of whiny cry babies expecting some one to give them what ever they want.That can't handle loosing or not getting the job they want,they want to work less a make more they want they want they want.WAh Wah Wah Boo Hoo!

!!! My son and all his friends are working their asses off and scrapping for jobs in a pretty tough economy. He graduated on a Wednesday and went to work the next Monday ten years ago and has been working since. From where i sit, most of these young folks don't have time for anything but work.
As far as winning and losing goes...its all a bunch of BS in a basket. Most folks are fighting to win every day at their jobs....maybe on the week end they like to lighten up. I will march in the streets to defend FT with you, but I got to admit there are a lot of folks with real attitude and arrogance in the sport and you seem to prove the point. I meet some out in ND each year....and more than a few stop to ask if I've seen their dog. Had a nice Pointer male show up one day and hunt with me for 2 hours before it disappeared.

See how easy it is to generalize

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:53 pm

So ninevehn your going to cry about tough economic times ,I'm 67 yrs old living through it myself I'm not a cry baby but since you mentiomed it try this on 4 size.My wife worked at a company for 37 yrs was making a decent living,they packed up went to China & pretty much took her retirement with them.We are still making a living but you try to get a job after you turn 50 but the fact is 7 of the engineers where she use to work started a develop & research co & called her to work for them after she was out of a job for 5 yrs..She has now been there for a yr & still the ONLY employee they have but she couldn't find a job until they called her,did we cry & asked for sympathy? We have never defaulted on any loans,house payments or any thing else during that time though our income was cut to a third,the reason being because we lived by our means not over it so cry some more about your tough times.I have no sympathy for you because you haven't earned it yet.You don't know the half of it maybe life will teach you.

Bring it on guys tell me how I AM HOLDING YOU BACK!! :roll:

Ninevehn · Post by **Ninevehn** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:57 pm

I kinda figured you'd mistake empathy for sympathy. I'm not crying at all, merely explaining why I don't have the money, just as you apparently didn't at my age. Nonetheless, it sounds like your wife went through some hard times, not at that different from what happened to my brother a few years ago. That, incidentally, is my actual point: we aren't so very different.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:13 pm

I don't know that I have any real answers, but I have observed a real shift in the bird dog world over the years. From the time that I was a child up until my early twenties or so, every one that I knew that was a bird hunter or field trialer had E Pointers and English Setters. All of these folks lived in the country and had four or five dogs, or more that they kept in outdoor kennels or chained out. Some of these guys also field trialed and some of them were just hunters, but even the hunters were well aware of the major field trial winners of the day and could quickly explain how their hunting dogs went back to these winners. NSTRA was very young and I had never heard of NAVHDA.

Fast forward to today and most of the bird dog owners that I know have GSPs, or other continental breeds. They live in subdivisions and they own one or two dogs that live in the house. These dogs spend as much time at the dog park and going for car rides as they do hunting.

I think that the shift has been away from traditional field trials and towards NAVHDA, and AKC type hunt tests.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:16 pm

bigoak wrote:Hey,I want to know where Sharon's buying pigeons for $1.50!

London, Ontario at a weekly small game auction ; too far for you to come I think.

PS
Of course it depends on who's bidding. One day a guy kept driving the prices up so he would always win x 25 birds. I talked to him afterwards as I wondered. He said " I buy them and free them ; they deserve to be free. "

:roll:

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:23 pm

I said if you really want to trial you will find away doesn't make any difference at what age you will be a beginner at some stage no matter how old you are.If you can't handle learning & take loosing in stride & be some what modest when you win you won't last long.Like a lot of those as they like to say you will never become one of the "good ole boys club" which is total BS!

All this stuff is life it's tough I have never asked any one for help of any kind not even for building or repairing any thing.I was raised that way unlike most others.
When I die I don't want to feel that I owe any one anything!!

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:25 pm

Ninevehn wrote:So, Vonzeppelinkennels, when you were the age of the younger generation today, you didn't field trial either, but the reason that they don't is because they are so different from you? C'mon.

My generation came of age in the worst economic situation since the Great Depression. There are three job seekers for every available job, and young applicants are competing against experienced people who were laid off in 2008. Inflation adjusted, we are the first generation in a century that can expect to make less than our parents, and most of us can expect to need a healthy pile of tuition debt before we even get that far. Those reasons, more than any perceived laziness, are why my generation is not participating.

I mean, I like to hunt. I love dogs. I don't even have one right now, because I work two full-time jobs and live in a one-room apartment so that I can afford to get a degree next year. That's not lazy, that's just being in tough straits, something it sounds like you ought to empathize with.

Well said. It ain't what it used to be ( I'm 67 too.) and Happy Valentine's Day to Von Zep-., he needs a little love so he can spread it around.

If you've trialed for 40 years , one is a part of the "ole boy's club" and should be. I've always found the members of that Club to be tremendously helpful.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:55 pm

Sharon I have all the LOVE I need been married since I was 19 & NO ONE on this earth has a BETTER wife then I do.I hope a few are as LUCKY!