Tail docking

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muleskinner
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Tail docking

Post by muleskinner » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:23 pm

About to have a litter of GSP pups....probably in the next 3-5 days. Never have docked tails and dew claws. Seems fairly simple. Should I have the vet do it or try myself? How long do I want the tail to be? Appreciate any help from you folks on here.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by cjhills » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:48 pm

I always have mine done by my vet. She does a very good job and I never have a bald tail. I have bought many pups from breeders who do their own and they almost always are bare on the end. I am sure it is simple enough and saves about $15 a puppy. having a vet do it is a good selling point It.
We dock at +50%. I hate short tails.....................................Cj

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nitrex
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Re: Tail docking

Post by nitrex » Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:37 pm

I like them to be 50% + and always leave at least 1-1/2". Also, I'll leave enough to ensure a white tip on pups with liver patch around and up the tail.

I like to measure them by marking 1-1/2" on a business card. I place the card under the tail and push it against the anus. Then I have them cut at the mark on the card.

Good Luck...

Nitrex

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SwitchGrassWPG
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Re: Tail docking

Post by SwitchGrassWPG » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:09 pm

If you've never done it before, its not something you should experiment with without someone present who is adept at doing it. I've seen some unintended, ugly results from people trying to do it themselves the first time...

Jay

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Re: Tail docking

Post by DonF » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:19 pm

SwitchGrassWPG wrote:If you've never done it before, its not something you should experiment with without someone present who is adept at doing it. I've seen some unintended, ugly results from people trying to do it themselves the first time...

Jay
I would agree with this. Really pretty simple but. I started doing my own years ago but had someone that knew how help me. Tails and dew claws off between 3rd and 5th day.Unless it's an emergency, I never take pup's into a vet clinic. Most vey's do a good job of keeping everything clean but, the vet is where sick dogs go.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by Georgia Boy » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:26 pm

We do ours on day 2-3. Cut the tail 40-50%, put a stitch or two in it and super glue dew claw area after removing.

muleskinner
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Re: Tail docking

Post by muleskinner » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:52 pm

I think i'll let my vet do it this time...these pups are out of awesome parents...I have the mom and dad...he is the best i've ever had and she is pretty good also...would'nt want to mess up a tail on pups that should have all the potential in the world. Sure appreciate the input from this forum. Hope everyone has a great Christmas and remember the reason for it all!

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Re: Tail docking

Post by RoostersMom » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:52 am

Breed standard for a GSP tail is to leave 40% of the tail, most people cut too short - like a Brittany tail. Some people go too long (the California Cut) - but it's all up to you. I think the GSP's with Vizsla cuts look funny (V's leave about 60%).

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Re: Tail docking

Post by hi-tailyn » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:55 am

I would be there when Vet does tails. Make sure he measures them and cuts the length you want. Most short tails are from Vets left alone to make their own decision on where to cut.

I measure each tail and make a mark and remove just past mark.

I remove tails and dew claws with Hemostats. Mosquito curved for dew claws, and med. straight for tail. I clamp on line and twist off tail till completely separated. Never a bald tip.

What I have seen is if the tail is Cut you will end up with a Bald tip. Most Vets Cut and it is easy to see one that is done by a Vet. Bald.

Of course there are exceptions, where a Vet may do another method that doesn't produce bold tails.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by reba » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:12 am

To not get the bald tip you need to pull the skin around the tail up towards the anus BEFORE you cut.

DO NOT CUT THE TAIL SHORT!

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Re: Tail docking

Post by Quailcommando » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:40 am

hi-tailyn wrote:I would be there when Vet does tails. Make sure he measures them and cuts the length you want. Most short tails are from Vets left alone to make their own decision on where to cut.

I measure each tail and make a mark and remove just past mark.

I remove tails and dew claws with Hemostats. Mosquito curved for dew claws, and med. straight for tail. I clamp on line and twist off tail till completely separated. Never a bald tip.

What I have seen is if the tail is Cut you will end up with a Bald tip. Most Vets Cut and it is easy to see one that is done by a Vet. Bald.

Of course there are exceptions, where a Vet may do another method that doesn't produce bold tails.
Hi-tailyn, what do think about banded tails the ones I've seen seem to look ok and are not bald.

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hi-tailyn
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Re: Tail docking

Post by hi-tailyn » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:50 am

I have heard of it. But never seen it done.

I prefer to do whole litter in 10 min. with no bleeding and no chance of mother chewing on the bands.

I do all my litters, and most of my friend's litters. Have easily done a couple hundred tails and dew claws. Quick and easy to do. I learned at a Myria Syvant Canine reproduction seminar many, many years ago and has been well worth it.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by ACooper » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:12 pm

While I agree that too long is much better than too short, several of my friends have had tails "re-docked" after getting their pup home.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by hi-tailyn » Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:26 pm

Tail Position has a lot to do with how long.

If parents have low tail set, a shorter tail looks better.

At the other end of where some breeders are going with higher and higher tails, you get the sickle tails, and again a shorter tail is better than a long curving tail.

If parents have 11-12 o'clock straight tails, then a longer tail surely looks good and stylish.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by ACooper » Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:52 pm

hi-tailyn wrote: If parents have 11-12 o'clock straight tails, then a longer tail surely looks good and stylish.
To an extent, though I would disagree that anything over 60% looks good.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by Quailcommando » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:09 pm

photo-7.JPG
ACooper wrote:
hi-tailyn wrote: If parents have 11-12 o'clock straight tails, then a longer tail surely looks good and stylish.
To an extent, though I would disagree that anything over 60% looks good.
I have one that's a little to long but has turned out to be a good dog so I can live with it.
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Re: Tail docking

Post by wems2371 » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:29 pm

I can testify that not every vet does the best job, but while I've held puppies for a friend during docking, I don't think I could do it myself.

This is my tail docking story, that didn't start well, but ended well. My vet wasn't able to get my pups in until day 5, which everyone told me was too long to wait. I think it was a bit of an office mishap, between the receptionist and him as to time, as I never got to talk to him myself. So I went to a vet a friend uses, on a Saturday, at 2.5 days old. Young lady vet wouldn't let me be in the room and allowed my dumbarse self to eyeball them. Needless to say, I marked two of them on the long side, more than the 50% I wanted.

Within 24 hours the first set of stitches was popping open and I started worrying. I had been by the whelping box 24/7 and momma was not fixated on licking them, so I can only guess they weren't stitched well. I took that puppy back to the lady vet on Monday, and she said the only thing to do was to redock. The skin had shrunk and was tore in a spot, and couldn't be stretched back. So with tears in my eyes, like the girl that I am, I handed her back baby Blaze for a redock. When I got home, more stitches were popping open on other pups, and panic set in. By the end of the day, there was hardly a pup out of 7, that still had it's tail stitched completely shut. I was looking at a bunch of open ended raw meat tails.

I called my normal vet, and ate crow about not using him. It wasn't that he gave me a hard time, but I felt bad about using someone else and the fallout it was presenting me with. My vet snuck me in at closing time and looked at my laundry basket of puppies. He had a puzzled look as to what had been done by the other vet, and gosh dangit, if more tears didn't start. She hadn't even cut all the tails in the same way. Some were blunt cut and then stitched. Others were undercut and she pulled the flap of skin to the bottom side and stitched. I asked my vet of 15 years, why she would have done that. He looked at me and said that they don't teach much about tail docking in vet school, as it's a frowned upon practice. He cut some loose stitches out, said there was nothing more he could do, but that I need to bring the litter back to him in 10 days and he would cut/dig any remaining stitches out. I asked why I needed to do that, since she had said they were disolvable. My vet said, yeah sure they are, in 30 days with the sutures she used. He said you'll have granulomas/scars building by then. Anyway, he swore to me that it would be all right and that there would be a lot of contracting of skin that would happen and cover the ends, along with hair. For that reason, he said Blaze should never have been redocked. I went home and wrote all my puppy buyers about what had happened, as I was worried we'd have some ugly bald ended tails. This was my first litter, and it wasn't a great feeling to think I scarred up my pups. They all said they weren't worried in the least. True to his word, every tail covered, even those where extra damage had been done by the stitches tearing out skin. Out of 7, my avatar pup is probably the only one that doesn't look perfect. I can't see skin, but he has a strip of hair that's sort of missing on the end. If I keep the whispy curl trimmed short, it camouflages it pretty well.

My vet and I would talk about this later. In seeing these blunt ends heal up so well, I was thinking why is it needed to do stitches or such. He told me that he cuts and glues for clients, but that yes, mother nature does a great job...depending on the docking length. He basically said that if you're cutting a short dobie or boxer tail, closing it up is everything because of the girth of the tail and the contractual skin won't be able to cover it. Whereas cut a GSP at 50-60%, and the girth is significantly smaller where the cut is made, and able to heal up fairly well if need be. Even with the glueing he does, he said if it pops open and you don't immediately see it--leave it be. Mother nature will handle it, versus glueing it back up and trapping dirt/infection inside.

Tail docking was quite the learning lesson for me, about sticking with using my own trusted vet in the future.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:37 pm

60 % is about the maximum for me,personaly 55% is ideal for me but unless you measure & calculate that's being a little specific.I use to have them done at 50% but had one litter that I thought all the tails were too short at 50%.The next litter I had done at 60% & my avatar dog Storm ended up with a tail just a little too long but all others were good.This last litter I told my vet to leave a little over 50% & they look pretty good so far.He cuts digs out the last digit then stitches the tails never had a bald one yet.I would rather have them too long then too short but others disagree,every one has their own opinion. :)

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Re: Tail docking

Post by DonF » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:12 am

I always docked mine at that joint where the tail get's smaller. Is he gonna do this himself? Has to be done between 3 and 5 days. After than it get's real expensive.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by mrcreole » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:34 am

Hi-tailyn is giving some sound advice and technique.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by Wildweeds » Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:44 am

I've helped or done hundreds of tails, 40 springers,over 100 gsps,5 litters of wirehairs,litter or two of britts,and a cur dog litter of GSP/GWP. My buddy used to cut them,I used a rope cutter soldering iron.When he saw how slick the soldering iron works I became the resident surgeon.He used to wait 3 days,I only wait 24 hours.To me the sooner the better,they wiggle less and get more benefit from the clostrom milk they get off of mama.We go by what looks good on coloring,push the pups butt against a board,pull the skin on the tail toward the butt and zip it off with the iron,it's white hot,sharp and they don't even barely squeak.Never had a dead pup from tail chopping em off early,Have waited for three days on a couple of pups though that were weaklings.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by Elkhunter » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:34 pm

I had my vet do mine, he cuts em on 45 degree back towards the puppy and then folds the tail over and sews it up. They all look great. Not one bald one.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by mrcreole » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:18 pm

Elkhunter wrote:I had my vet do mine, he cuts em on 45 degree back towards the puppy and then folds the tail over and sews it up. They all look great. Not one bald one.
That sounds like a good idea. Sounds a bit like we do flaps for leg amputation stumps. Very good idea.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by hi-tailyn » Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:12 pm

Wildweeds wrote:I've helped or done hundreds of tails, 40 springers,over 100 gsps,5 litters of wirehairs,litter or two of britts,and a cur dog litter of GSP/GWP. My buddy used to cut them,I used a rope cutter soldering iron.When he saw how slick the soldering iron works I became the resident surgeon.He used to wait 3 days,I only wait 24 hours.To me the sooner the better,they wiggle less and get more benefit from the clostrom milk they get off of mama.We go by what looks good on coloring,push the pups butt against a board,pull the skin on the tail toward the butt and zip it off with the iron,it's white hot,sharp and they don't even barely squeak.Never had a dead pup from tail chopping em off early,Have waited for three days on a couple of pups though that were weaklings.
My very first litter Don Paltani told me he used soldering iron to cut and cauterize the tails so there was no bleeding. I did this on first and second litter. Those turned out to be the ugliest scared tail ends I have ever seen.

I learned about the Hemostat method and now all my pups have completely fully haired tail ends. :)

I measure each tail and mark 50% then lay the tail under the pup. For females, I look to see if mark will cover her private parts. If they cover, I remove at the mark. If not I remove just past the mark. Males I remove at the mark.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by Wildweeds » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:12 am

We pull on em pretty good Hi Tailyn and seem to always have enough skin that it rolls over the cut end and heals up,hair grows to a nice point on them.Forget to pull the skin towards the butt and you got problems.Heck I know someone who used to cut em with the looped dog nail clippers,buy a brand new pair,slide over the tail,get traction on the skin,push towards the but and cut.Honestly though bald/scarred ends if you get them really are better looking than 90+% of vet cut super short tails.5 vets in my vets office,and the vet I use is the only one in there that will dock tails,he is also the only vet in this area that crops ears as well.
hi-tailyn wrote:
Wildweeds wrote:I've helped or done hundreds of tails, 40 springers,over 100 gsps,5 litters of wirehairs,litter or two of britts,and a cur dog litter of GSP/GWP. My buddy used to cut them,I used a rope cutter soldering iron.When he saw how slick the soldering iron works I became the resident surgeon.He used to wait 3 days,I only wait 24 hours.To me the sooner the better,they wiggle less and get more benefit from the clostrom milk they get off of mama.We go by what looks good on coloring,push the pups butt against a board,pull the skin on the tail toward the butt and zip it off with the iron,it's white hot,sharp and they don't even barely squeak.Never had a dead pup from tail chopping em off early,Have waited for three days on a couple of pups though that were weaklings.
My very first litter Don Paltani told me he used soldering iron to cut and cauterize the tails so there was no bleeding. I did this on first and second litter. Those turned out to be the ugliest scared tail ends I have ever seen.

I learned about the Hemostat method and now all my pups have completely fully haired tail ends. :)

I measure each tail and mark 50% then lay the tail under the pup. For females, I look to see if mark will cover her private parts. If they cover, I remove at the mark. If not I remove just past the mark. Males I remove at the mark.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by cjhills » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:31 am

I do the measuring and decide the length. Most vets will cut to short. Sometimes it is a battle but I get my way in the end. My vet cuts a vee and stitches it up. Works very good. But make sure you are involved or you will probably get short tails..................Cj
Last edited by cjhills on Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by dog dr » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:23 pm

It amazes me that some vets actually argue with people on this. I MAKE the owner show me EXACTLY where they want the tails cut, that way they cant complain about the end product.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by mountaindogs » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:44 pm

This is how my vet is. He asks, we mark, he double checks and ask if I am sure... my tails always pull open as wems did, always scab over a bit and have bald spots. Can't say this pleases me.
I cringed inside when you said you redocked it for that. :( cause I figured it would happen again. As the tissue shrinks back the stitches always pull out. Also he does not like to do large breed tails after 3 days because they are pretty thick by then. Did them once on 4 and NEVER again!

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Re: Tail docking

Post by wems2371 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:12 pm

However she stitched with the redock, it stayed much better, although Blaze lost 99% of the white tip of her tail and definitely ended up with 40% length. I wish I had gone to my normal vet that morning, instead of back to the new one, as we never would have done it again. I know a lot of folks have zero issues with stitches. I think I just got a vet that maybe didn't have as much experience as others.

I had some photos of the docks after the stitches came out, but they were probably a little graphic, and fodder for the anti docking crowd..............
Last edited by wems2371 on Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Tail docking

Post by wems2371 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:18 pm

This is Franki on Thursday 5/23, at 8 days old. It's hard to tell, as I picked a P.C. photo I hope, but the fringe of hair is ringing a very blunt exposed scabbed over end. I guess we were blessed, as none of our pups left with visible bald spots.
Image

This is Franki on 7/12, right around 2 months old, and it is fully covered...similar to the other pups.
Image

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Re: Tail docking

Post by Coveyrise64 » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:12 pm

-
I do the measuring and decide the length. My vet cuts a "v" and then applies two stitches. He prefers to use silk sutures, thinks mom doesn't mess with them as much. As was said earlier, make sure you are involved or you will probably get short tails.

cr

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Re: Tail docking

Post by jack the dog » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:55 am

If this is your first time, take the pups to the vet and watch what they do and how they do it.
Maybe next time you cold do it yourself.

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