Gun Dog Forum

My search in this subject has not netted me a clear answer so maybe you all can help. Is there a formal and acceptable form for a dog on point? Is the classic one foot raised and tail stiff in the wind the only "proper point"?
As I work with Scout I notice some differences and wonder if these are things I should be working to correct. For example sometimes he raises a foot, sometimes he does not. Sometimes he stands tall others he may lean down and forward, but the most perplexing one (for me at least) is his tail.
When he goes on point I can usually tell how close he his to a bird by watching his tail. If his little stub is wagging frantically I not only know that he is on a bird but that he is fairly close and most like has spotted it. If his tail is steady It usually indicates he has located a bird, is pretty sure where it is but has not "seen" it.
Are these things to be concerned with at all? At this time I am not planning on field trialing the pup, but he is getting ready for his NAVHDA UTP Test and I plan on running him in a Junior hunt test later this year.

A friend of mine once said that "style is between the dog and the bird." She further went on to tell me to "quit messing with him when he's on point." I know some folks like to "style up a dog" by stroking his tail into an upright position and encouraging the dog to have a high head. I don't mess with that stuff - and don't think it matters much in the games I've played (Hunt Tests, BHU, & lots of wild bird hunting). That said, I hate a flagging tail - any tail movement drives me crazy. When they're on point, the tail should be motionless. When they're tracking a bird or scenting a bird, there can be tail movement, but when they are pointing - they should be motionless. That's my only requirement on style. Leg position doesn't make one whit of difference - as long as the dog is motionless.

I never "style" a pointing dog, if the dog does a pretzel point or a low head carriage point that is fine by me. I look at the dogs tail as I approach but not with the thought of styling it. What I am "reading" is whether or not the bird is on the move. If the tail begins to twitch gently then with some of the dogs I've had this has meant a bird that has begun to run from the point.

Bill T.

Both good answers.
The dogs point is its point. The style or manner of point has a lot to do with the bird and how quick the dog caught scent of the bird and went into that UHOH I NEED TO STOP POINT. A dog that has a twitching tail knows he lost scent or it is getting less strong, so the bird left or the wind changed. The intensity of the point is reflective in the eyes and muscle on the dog. IMO A dog with a weakness in intensity usually has been worked to hard or incorrectly or fussed over to much when on birds. Or the dog just has not enough exposure to birds and not sure what it is.

The raised foot should is just the dogs manner and maybe the in between decision to step forward or not but has learned it can not.
A dog that is in a low head point probably has the bird real close, if he raises his head then the bird probably moved away but he can still have a good scent bead on it. A dog that starts moving its head from side to side, generally has lost the scent and may be ready to relocate to find the bird. Many times if the dogs head is high tail real high ( you see a lot of pointers and setters with both ends up) the bird is off in the distance but the dog has a good handle on where it is.

There are a lot of things that a point tells you. There are preferences in how one perceives what a nice intense point is.

Rick

Agree with everyone else. What you see is what you get.

DonF wrote:Agree with everyone else. What you see is what you get.

Yeah, I've never seen two dogs point exactly the same. Style is subjective. I don't care for one of my dog's tails especially, but he's a bird finding machine, so it doesn't bother me in the least.

Any point that is intense and motionless and produces a bird is a perfect point to me. Some of my favorite points are the ones where the dog freezes up in the middle of whatever he was doing when he caught scent, like when one his hind legs are off the ground or he's going under a fence. I think people put too much emphasis on the 12 o'clock tail. Apparently EPs and Setters in the UK are supposed to point with a 9 o'clock tail and a 12 o'clock tail is considered a fault. Same for GSPs. I'm sure there are some reasons for the 12 o'clock tail, but it mostly seems like a fad that only took hold over here.

Dog is born with the style he will show, We can only take style from the dog which is why you try and train with as little pressure as possible. And why being on a program and not experimenting or over training is important.

Style after the shot and fall in a dog steady to wing, shot and fall, can be enhanced some (I think) but still , as little pressure as possible is key IMHO.

While I agree it does not matter the least for a hunting dog or for most of the games. But it does matter in Shooting Dog and to a lessor extent All-Age.

We spend a lot of time on the barrel and using the Buddy Stick to train a lofty pose.

Neil

John S wrote:My search in this subject has not netted me a clear answer so maybe you all can help. Is there a formal and acceptable form for a dog on point? Is the classic one foot raised and tail stiff in the wind the only "proper point"?

You're gonna get different 'points' of view John!
Many look for the type of form that impressed them most the first time of experience,and many are swayed by some influential peoples opinions , there are also many that quote the 'greats' of yesteryear ,or examples of 'what an individual style' interprets>? ...
I am the opinion (even if I have not had a string of champion pointers) that a 'Point' is a 'Point' is a 'Point'!...If it produces game, even if the dog lifted one leg or two legs or done the hokey pokey!
I am also in the camp of , regarding 'more to the dogs 'form' regarding steady to shot/wing/fall

Thanks for the replies. I have never attempted to "style" the dog once on point. I am just now working with him on steady to flush and actually backing him up by picking him up and moving him back a few feet if he is too close to the bird.
I have read some negative comments before concerning "flagging" and that is my main concern as to whether it would have an impact on scores for either a hunt test or NAVHDA test. IF not then I am not inclined to worry about it.

Agree a point is a point, but since I am fairly new to new to the "test" game I want to be sure that we are on the right track. One thing I have really learned is "Trust the dogs nose". If Scout goes on point, there is a bird there somewhere. We've had some really buried deep in brush and even one pheasant in a space in a rock wall, finally saw one of its eyeballs through a crack and removed a few rocks to get it to flush.

Im a style freak. When you see it you dont forget it. Does it matter maybe not but does to me.

Neil wrote:While I agree it does not matter the least for a hunting dog or for most of the games. But it does matter in Shooting Dog and to a lessor extent All-Age.

We spend a lot of time on the barrel and using the Buddy Stick to train a lofty pose.

Neil

Not to hijack the post - but a couple of related questions:

Neil - how do you train for a "lofty pose?" Is there a quick youtube showing what you do?

Also - does anyone know if a high head or tail is important in NSTRA?

THX

Style is important to me I will not feed a dog that has his tail down or between his legs or a dog that is low in the front every time it points.It doesn't cost anymore to feed a dog that has style if all you want is for a dog to stand birds
they find so you can shoot them that's your choice I want more,to me it's more then just killing birds at this time in my life.
Rooster though the most points & retrieves will usually get you a win in NSTRA High Head &Tail will get you more points for each find.

buckshot1 wrote:Any point that is intense and motionless and produces a bird is a perfect point to me. Some of my favorite points are the ones where the dog freezes up in the middle of whatever he was doing when he caught scent, like when one his hind legs are off the ground or he's going under a fence. I think people put too much emphasis on the 12 o'clock tail. Apparently EPs and Setters in the UK are supposed to point with a 9 o'clock tail and a 12 o'clock tail is considered a fault. Same for GSPs. I'm sure there are some reasons for the 12 o'clock tail, but it mostly seems like a fad that only took hold over here.

Same here!!!

Charlie

RoostersMom wrote:

Neil wrote:While I agree it does not matter the least for a hunting dog or for most of the games. But it does matter in Shooting Dog and to a lessor extent All-Age.

We spend a lot of time on the barrel and using the Buddy Stick to train a lofty pose.

Neil

Not to hijack the post - but a couple of related questions:

Neil - how do you train for a "lofty pose?" Is there a quick youtube showing what you do?

Also - does anyone know if a high head or tail is important in NSTRA?

THX

They mostly train for a Lofty pose for after the bird goes.....dog should hit the bird how he hits his birds.

Nstra states in the judges guide states, dogs should have a high head and tail....for what thats worth.

RoostersMom wrote:

Neil wrote:While I agree it does not matter the least for a hunting dog or for most of the games. But it does matter in Shooting Dog and to a lessor extent All-Age.

We spend a lot of time on the barrel and using the Buddy Stick to train a lofty pose.

Neil

Not to hijack the post - but a couple of related questions:

Neil - how do you train for a "lofty pose?" Is there a quick youtube showing what you do?

Also - does anyone know if a high head or tail is important in NSTRA?

THX

Sorry, I don't know about NSTRA and you would have to do a search for Youtube. We start the dog on a horizontal 55 gallon barrel with a chain hung from a cross bar. The dog learns to stand still and high. We then transition to the Buddy Stick when they point. It is not all that complex, but I would have to write half a book to explain all the nuance. Best to attend a seminar.

Yes dogs can be taught to stand tall & it's done more often then some think & has been done for yrs.I have never competed in NSTRA trials but use to attend a few with friends probably 30 yrs ago.
I never knew all the rules or n tricks to the game & they may have changed some since then but I know there was a few guys that use to take advantage of some of the rules then to win.
Here's a couple for instance,use to if your dog pointed feathers you could pick them up throw them in the air fire your gun just like a live bird & you got credited for a find & if the dog retrieved the feather also credit for a retrieve.
These same guys trained their dogs to stack up just like on point if given a low under breath whoa,which came in handy when the handler saw a bird on the ground.The handler would give the whoa or in some cases another signal to the
dog to stack up & then they would flush the bird & get credit for a find & hopefully a retrieve.I can remember them talking about getting beat by Tuminski's Crib owner using a silent whistle to achieve that very thing.These guys won fairly often & can remember
a female setter owned by one of them winning a full trial 2 or 3 days before delivery of a litter of pups.There was a lot of little tricks at that time & maybe still don't know but handlers that win often know them all & take full advantage no matter what venue it is.

As far as flagging goes here is something you might try. Before kicking out the bird, kick around in the grass away from the bird and see if your dog tenses up and stops flagging. If the dog stops, then start kicking a tuff of grass about 10 yards from the bird. Next time 15 yards from the bird. Next time 20 yards from the bird. After a while the dog will stop flagging on a single grass kick from a long distance. This worked good for one of my hunt test dogs to get her to stop flagging before I got up to her to flush the bird. She never did flag on wild birds, just the pen raised quail. She knew it was a game with the pen raised quail and I could get her to focus again with a single grass kick from 30 to 35 yards away. Try it, it won't cost you anything and it might work . I'll bet she doesn't flag on wild birds in a hunting situation Good luck.

buckshot1 wrote:Any point that is intense and motionless and produces a bird is a perfect point to me. Some of my favorite points are the ones where the dog freezes up in the middle of whatever he was doing when he caught scent, like when one his hind legs are off the ground or he's going under a fence. I think people put too much emphasis on the 12 o'clock tail. Apparently EPs and Setters in the UK are supposed to point with a 9 o'clock tail and a 12 o'clock tail is considered a fault. Same for GSPs. I'm sure there are some reasons for the 12 o'clock tail, but it mostly seems like a fad that only took hold over here.

Most fads don't last for over 70 years. There are some good reasons for it, but mostly we bred the best to the best and the tail came along for the ride. Mainly it shows pride, confidence, and ability to take their lessons well.

Put too much pressure on a soft dog and see what happens to the head and tail, they will drop and sometimes the dog will go to his belly. Not what I think we should be breeding.

Neil

Rick Smith had several humorous analogies for this:

If you were cutting a 8 ct. diamond would you want someone stroking your back?

If you were disarming a bomb would you want someone rubbing your butt?

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:Rick Smith had several humorous analogies for this:

If you were cutting a 8 ct. diamond would you want someone stroking your back?

If you were disarming a bomb would you want someone rubbing your butt?

I fully agree, after they are staunch, I never disrtact them.

Neil wrote:[
Most fads don't last for over 70 years. There are some good reasons for it, but mostly we bred the best to the best and the tail came along for the ride. Mainly it shows pride, confidence, and ability to take their lessons well.
Neil

Don't buy this. A 12:00 tail on an intense dog is the same as a 10:00 tail on an intense dog. The twelve oclock tail is a manifistation of breeding but not intelligence. Same as the 10:00 tail.

The 12:00 of many is their desire, they think it looks better and more intense and stylish. That is just an opinion and perception.

Peronally I like the tail lower as I like the linear look and not the U shape of the high head and high tail. But that is just my opinion and what I like.

10 o'clock is on its way to 3 o'clock.

My opinion, and this is just my opinion based on my own limited knowlege and personal standards are like this. When a dog is on point, head and tail held high it reminds me of being in the show ring. It's all about the "look". If you have to dress the dog up on point to get it to look the way "you" want it to then you have taken the natural look out of the dog. This type of stance also appears to be more nonchalant to me, and no I have no other basis for this other then aesthetic looks.

On the other hand, a dog pointed with head forward and down (as if straining against a leash) appears to me to be more vigilant and intense.
No matter what though, to me at least, it's the end result that matters. Was it a true point or a false point? Did the dog present a bird for a shot to put food on the table? Isn't this ultimately what these dogs were bred for and not for some egocentric persons idea of what a good point should look like?

Part of it I guess is knowing what you want out of your dog(s). For me it is a good house companion that can hunt and find birds. Last season at under a year old Scout found, pointed and retrieved birds every time we went out. Trials and hunt tests are as much a learning experience for me as they are for Scout and a way for us both to try and reach our maximum potential. But winning titles is not the sole goal of our relationship, enjoying the bond between us is.

John S wrote:On the other hand, a dog pointed with head forward and down (as if straining against a leash) appears to me to be more vigilant and intense.

The beauty of owning a dog is that you get to decide for yourself what you want to see. There are situations where a dog "hits" a bird and may be contorted, or coming from down wind etc... that their reaction and position will be unconventional but completely natural and appropriate for a situation. However, there is functionality and reason behind a high tail and head.

A high head is usually because a dog has hit scent from some distance and they are in a scent cone that is not right on the ground. For a pointing dog in my world this is more desirable and its what I breed for even though the necessity of it has waned through the years as more dogs are employed only to hunt put and place birds.

Now what about the tail? In field trials you must have some differentiators, at the highest levels that can come down to splitting hairs. In the canine world a high tail is confidence, bold, aggressive... In this sense, it exhibits confidence around the bird where discipline has been instilled to abort the stock and not pounce and chase. A dog that can be trained to maintain its "place" in a team and do so with boldness and confidence is of greater value to me than one that gives me a more apprehensive body language, i.e., a lower or flagging tail. Please understand that genetics or training can cause either one. The other reason for a dropped tail can be a desire to bolt, pounce, chase...what have you. Sometimes I see a dog willing to stand, but their body language tells me its a never ending conflict for them

None of this should be cause for anyone to immediately cull their dog lying on the kitchen floor. It is simply a standard created based to measure selected criteria related to bird dogs largely for breeding purposes. The unintended consequences are the inevitable conflicts created by humans and their egos engaged in competition; though I will make the case that it is pretty small potatoes in comparison to other competitions that we openly embrace...want proof? Tune immediately to any sports talk radio and objectively analyze the absurdity of what you are listening to.

John S wrote:No matter what though, to me at least, it's the end result that matters. Was it a true point or a false point? Did the dog present a bird for a shot to put food on the table? Isn't this ultimately what these dogs were bred for and not for some egocentric persons idea of what a good point should look like?

I may be ministerpreting what you wrote, but in my opinion It's not just the dogs job to present the bird for a shot. The hunter has to do his/her part as well in order to present the bird for a shot. It's the dogs job to find the bird and point it and the hunter needs to figure out the best approach to flush the bird in a way that will offer a shot. As I've learned over the years this can be very tricky. It seems like I pick the wrong angle to move to flush, pick the wrong distance to approach the flush, or pick the wrong side of the cover to flush on regular basis. I can hear the bird flush or see it for a split second, but I certainly did not do my part to present the bird for a shot.

Lets just forget about pointing for a second,now tell me this when you go to buy & pick a pup or adult dog are you going to pick one with his head a tail down or one that struts around with a high head & tail?
Same difference to me anyway low head & tail means lack of boldness & confidence to me not counting the other benefits of a dog standing high like being able to find or see them easier.Dogs that stand tall are usually pointing birds
farther off also but some want their dogs almost on top of their birds I guess.

i prefer a dog to point naturally than to style it.

Once a dog is broke they point naturally the styling is before but if I have a dog that doesn't naturally have a high tail & head he won't be around long enough to get broke.
My dogs are naturally high on point as are many others & we keep them around.

A poker straight 12 o'clock tail shows me a good high tail set and good build and conformation in a dog more so then anything else. A proud confident dog will carry himself as such too.

Saddle wrote:A poker straight 12 o'clock tail shows me a good high tail set and good build and conformation in a dog more so then anything else. A proud confident dog will carry himself as such too.

Tail carriage and tail set are two completely different things. Dogs with a high tail set can carry their tail between their legs just as easily as a dog with a low tail set.

Ezzy

seen a few short docked dogs in my days.
wonder how they get them tails up or down some times.

Neil wrote:10 o'clock is on its way to 3 o'clock.

I am sure that you hav seen many more dogs than I have, due to your field trial experience. But in my 50yrs. of running bird dogs, I have never seen a 10:00 tail turn into a 3:00 tail (I would call it a 9:00 but I guess it would be the way he is facing the clock ) I also wonder about the 70yr. comment. Those of us who don't care for a head and tail sticking straight up in the air doesn't mean we are going to end up with a spineless dog, tucking his tail and pointing on his belly. Just let me add that if Ihave a dog that points with his head and tail pointing toward the hawks in the sky, I will be proud to own and hunt that dog. It is just not my preference on what style should be. I do understand that if you trial it is pretty much a necessity.

Charlie

Most dogs that have high tail sets but carry it or point with it low have had too much pressure at too early of age.I hate to see that but there are some kennels that breed,sell,& train pups & almost every one of the dogs on their websites point with low tails.Those are so called trainers I don't want my dogs near.

Vonze

I call BS

I have a pair of pointers, the bitch cost me
100 bucks at 6 weeks old( bought her from my
Old football coach) I trained the dog ( more like she
Trained me) and she points both high and low, mostly low but she
Is a bird finding machine with intensity!

The male came from a respectful kennel from Georgia ( cost a lot more
Than 100)
He is a grandson of honky tonk attitude . I trained
Him and he has that real high nose and 12 o'clock point; he is a great dog and he is intense, but he
Is not as intense as she is.

She out hunts him on every outing, wild birds
And plantation birds.


Just so you know I'm plannig a litter between these two within the coming weeks,
I guess I'm a bad trainer and breeder if they naturally point low.



DB

Did I mention your name,I said there are kennels that if you look at the dogs they have on their websites almost all of them point with low tails even though they may have high tailsets.Dogs that point low in the front
well I don't like them,some do think it makes them look more intense but there are lines that point that way most of the time.All dogs may point low in the front at times depends on how they hit their birds but dogs that
point high on both ends most of the time don't point low very often.
Breed the kind of dogs you like no one really cares just saying they won't stay here or be bought by me!!

Neil wrote:10 o'clock is on its way to 3 o'clock.

Not true unless the dog has been over worked on birds or over handled or wrongly.

As others have said, if you like how your dog points that is great.

But I spend a lot of my dog's first year and half training for that lofty pose. If you don't like it, I can put it between their legs in a weekend. Just some harsh tratment would do it. If I didn't have to worry about keeping them high and tight, I could leave them in the kennel until they were 2, and break them in a couple weeks.

Geez some people are so sensitive if anyone has a differening opinion. The only person the dog ultimately has to please is the owner. I like that my FC/AFC dog sticks his birds however he hits them, maybe high maybe low. The longer he stands the higher he gets though, which seems to be pretty typical.

I prefer a point with a high tail. It makes them easier to see in the tall grass.
But my dogs point with different styles depending on how close to the bird they are, and other factors.

All I'm trying to say is that I have both kinds, a natural 12 o'clock dog and
A natural high and low dog, mostly low!

The dog that has a low tailed point is the better hunter!

I agree ezzy but a dog with a low tail set can never really have a true 12 o'clock tail.

One of my setters is a Llewellin and he "sets" like in the old days. My other setter will "set" some and other times points with a nice high 10:00 tail. I took him to a seminar that was more geared toward retrievers than pointing dogs and he "set" a pheasant wing. The trainer and I were very proud (he was about 14 months old at the time) and the rest of the students in the class were astonished and thought he had done something wrong.

Saddle wrote:I agree ezzy but a dog with a low tail set can never really have a true 12 o'clock tail.

Take a look at the fastest greyhounds, they have a very high tail set, but run with a nearly level tail, never seen one on point.

Yep Saddle,

In pointing dogs, I have never seen a low tail set have a high tail on point, let alone 12 o'clock.

SetterNut wrote:I prefer a point with a high tail. It makes them easier to see in the tall grass.
But my dogs point with different styles depending on how close to the bird they are, and other factors.

Some hunting guides in Texas wrap their tails in Blaze Orange duct tape.

I have never seen so many worry about the wrong end of a dog that does nothing to make one dog better than another.

Ezzy

ezzy333 wrote:I have never seen so many worry about the wrong end of a dog that does nothing to make one dog better than another.

Ezzy

If a dog is more pleasing to look at to someone, is that not better?

displaced_texan wrote:

ezzy333 wrote:I have never seen so many worry about the wrong end of a dog that does nothing to make one dog better than another.

Ezzy

If a dog is more pleasing to look at to someone, is that not better?

Prettier, not better.