given opportunity

vols fan · Post by **vols fan** » Sun May 26, 2013 8:59 am

How many dogs are there that could have success that are never given the opportunity to do recognized venues ? I ask this thinking of the two litters that I bred. The first litter a FC and a MH, The second a MH, a 2x UFTA CH, a 1pt shy of a NSTRA CH and a dog with multiple open placements. So 6 out of 20 have done well in recognized events. These were the only dogs given the opportunity. One dog is the best grouse dog my friend has ever had ( he's 65 ) and many of the others are considered their best dogs. My FC was hunted for two years before I gave him a try at trials. The mom of these dogs is the best wild birddog I have and she was given that opportunity last year going on age 10 and placed both times in UFTA doubles . So , every dog that was given the chance has placed in trials of some sort . I think there would be a high percentage of dogs able to compete if given the chance to in some sort of venue, what do you think? Please lets don't turn this into a venue bashing, just about dogs that could possibly win that are not given that chance. Thanks, Tony

Retiredbirddogman · Post by **Retiredbirddogman** » Sun May 26, 2013 9:15 am

Tony, the best Pheasant dog I ever had was never trialed. She didn't have tremendous foot speed, but she didn't miss many Pheasants that were in her area. Also my first true bird dog. The remainder of my dogs hunted and trialed in NSTRA. The "non trial dogs" deserve to be recognized too. Good post.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Sun May 26, 2013 9:53 am

I have to believe that a potential National All Age Champion is sitting right now on someone's couch being fed Cheetos'.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Sun May 26, 2013 10:00 am

I don't know much about other breeds, but the majority of Labs (flushing labs) don't hunt or compete in anything except for space on the couch.
The majority of Pointing Labs are at least hunted, whether they are run in Hunt Tests or Trials or not.

For sure, the majority of all Labs are not run in any Tests or Trials.

.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun May 26, 2013 10:09 am

It's hard to say that a dog would have done this or would have done that if given the chance, one thing I can say is a dog like your Maggie dog or like my old dog Tess would have been competitive in a weekend AKC FT venue or NSTRA. You can never say this dog would have been an FC or NSTRA champ etc too many variables involved and many nice dogs never finish, but there is no doubt there are many nice dogs that could compete that are never given an opportunity.

It is also very eye opening when going to performance events seeing very nice dogs, I know my bar for acceptable performance has been dramatically raised.

vols fan · Post by **vols fan** » Sun May 26, 2013 10:22 am

That's my point Andy, I bet there are many Maggie's and Tess' out there. Just think if you had only hunted Dez. I know he could have a HB career given the opportunity.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Sun May 26, 2013 11:17 am

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:I have to believe that a potential National All Age Champion is sitting right now on someone's couch being fed Cheetos'.

I agree

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Sun May 26, 2013 1:16 pm

deseeker wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:I have to believe that a potential National All Age Champion is sitting right now on someone's couch being fed Cheetos'.
I agree

Me too. I see gun dogs with great talent all the time. They will never get close to a field trial unless the owner has to drive by there to go hunting

Mo

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Sun May 26, 2013 4:10 pm

+1 What Mo said.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Sun May 26, 2013 11:53 pm

I think Andy hit it on the head, competitive. A lot of dogs can be competitive, but winning is a whole different ball game. IMO

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu May 30, 2013 2:51 pm

I wonder why more dogs aren't given the opportunity?

I see several dogs at our Navhda days that would show well in a walking FT, there is a setter than would run HB if he was given the chance, these dogs are well trained so its not about level of training, I try to talk these guys into running dogs in trials, most just don't seem interested.

Oklahoma also has an active NSTRA region, I wish some of these fellas would show up and run AKC trials.

Tyler S · Post by **Tyler S** » Thu May 30, 2013 3:09 pm

Maurice wrote:
Me too. I see gun dogs with great talent all the time. They will never get close to a field trial unless the owner has to drive by there to go hunting

Mo

X10 trials just aren't some folks cup of tea.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu May 30, 2013 4:30 pm

The best bird dog I have ever seen was a Gordon, he never got more than 20 miles from Roby, MO. On a bad day he would have won any trial I have entered or watched. As there were no other Gordons in our part of the state, sadly he was never bred.

I would guess there are many more great dogs not trialed, than the few that are.

Meller · Post by **Meller** » Thu May 30, 2013 5:32 pm

+1

I would guess there are many more great dogs not trialed, than the few that are.[/quote]

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Thu May 30, 2013 6:41 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:I have to believe that a potential National All Age Champion is sitting right now on someone's couch being fed Cheetos'.

I'm feeding Fritos...

In all seriousness, I agree, there are some AMAZING dogs out there that are never trialed to a great extent.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri May 31, 2013 5:41 am

One thing. The dog don't care and neither do a most of the owners. I have seen, owned and sold many very good dogs, who would have been competitive in what ever venue their owners chose for them and some that are competitive. The ones with titles are pretty much the same as the ones without and the owners pretty much like their dogs either way. Most are quite happy being family hunting dogs.
For most people it is enough expense to own a dog without some game in which they have no interest and need to rely on somebody else's opinion of their dog.
..................Cj

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri May 31, 2013 8:47 am

cjhills wrote:One thing. The dog don't care and neither do a most of the owners. I have seen, owned and sold many very good dogs, who would have been competitive in what ever venue their owners chose for them and some that are competitive. The ones with titles are pretty much the same as the ones without and the owners pretty much like their dogs either way. Most are quite happy being family hunting dogs.
For most people it is enough expense to own a dog without some game in which they have no interest and need to rely on somebody else's opinion of their dog.
..................Cj

I can't disagree with you, but it seems to me more people would get involved if the thought about how much it extends hunting season. Maybe it's not real hunting but it's better than no hunting.

CHJIII · Post by **CHJIII** » Fri May 31, 2013 9:03 am

I can pretty much say for sure that my avatar GSP Ranger would not only have competed, but he would have done very well, if I had chose to trial him.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri May 31, 2013 9:11 am

CHJIII wrote:I can pretty much say for sure that my avatar GSP Ranger would not only have competed, but he would have done very well, if I had chose to trial him.

Not sure how you could know that, I am sure he is a nice dog, but do very well in trials? I only know one way to prove that.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Fri May 31, 2013 9:18 am

Neil wrote:
CHJIII wrote:I can pretty much say for sure that my avatar GSP Ranger would not only have competed, but he would have done very well, if I had chose to trial him.
Not sure how you could know that, I am sure he is a nice dog, but do very well in trials? I only know one way to prove that.

I agree with Neil, its significantly easier to have a good hunting dog versus a good trial dog. Its just different, and those dogs that win consistently are pretty amazing.

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Fri May 31, 2013 10:25 am

Neil wrote:
CHJIII wrote:I can pretty much say for sure that my avatar GSP Ranger would not only have competed, but he would have done very well, if I had chose to trial him.
Not sure how you could know that, I am sure he is a nice dog, but do very well in trials? I only know one way to prove that.

Not to start a pissing match but there are two ways
1. Run the dog in a trial.
2. Runt the dog on your own time against a proven trial dog and see if he has what it takes.
I know a few people who do the later and the percentages they get are pretty darn good.
Either way this is how trailing came to be in the first place.

To the ops post,
There probably are a great number of possibly great champions, but testing,trailing just isn't for everyone. I don't blame them for just wanting a good "meat dog" heck that's what I want any day. I'd rather be hunting then do any of it. That is what my sole purpose when training my dogs, to be obedient yet determined hunting maniacs. All the games are only for fun and I really wouldn't care if I placed or passed, just being in a field with a dog really hunting for a bird is my greatest joy in this life.
A great trainer I know is training a guy's dog right now that he says has VC potential but the owner isn't interested in any of it just wants a good hunting waterfowl dog. Can you blame him for not trying the dog out heck no. Could he be the next VC probably never know but I wouldn't ever doubt this particular trainers word. He has many, many VC titled dogs already.

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Fri May 31, 2013 10:32 am

They are all great in our own eyes but until you compete and win it ain't reality. I watched some of the more competitive dogs in the country last year and I can tell you for a fact that although the building blocks may be the same as Old Roy the finished product is not.

What is opportunity anyway? Is entering a trial opportunity? Is being worked everyday opportunity? Is being trained by a pro an opportunity? Is seeing 1000's of birds opportunity? Is having someone paying the bills opportuinty? Opportunity is all that and more......

The reason that those dogs are successful is because of the time,effort and money that goes into them as well as genetics. Even though Ol Roy may the right stuff you probably don't, so unless you can afford to pay someone to do it for you Ol Roy probably don't have a very good chance of winning.

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Fri May 31, 2013 10:40 am

2. Runt the dog on your own time against a proven trial dog and see if he has what it takes.
I know a few people who do the later and the percentages they get are pretty darn good.
Either way this is how trailing came to be in the first place.

And who is the Judge? Percentages of what?

The only way to tell if your dog has what it takes to be a champion is to compete.

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Fri May 31, 2013 11:15 am

cjuve wrote:
2. Runt the dog on your own time against a proven trial dog and see if he has what it takes.
I know a few people who do the later and the percentages they get are pretty darn good.
Either way this is how trailing came to be in the first place.
And who is the Judge? Percentages of what?

The only way to tell if your dog has what it takes to be a champion is to compete.

A majority of people in the games or tests including myself know a judge or two and train with some. Just a phone call away.

Some pro trailers I know do this and through the years their percentage of dogs that did good against a proven champ have proven it possible to know before an actual real trial. The dogs that did do well in the fun trial did well in the trial and the ones that didn't, well didn't. Is it not 100% Ofcourse .
. And I agree a real champion is actually ru in a trial and placed. But their are other ways to tell if its possible is all I'm saying.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Fri May 31, 2013 11:33 am

So which venue provides the standard of excellence?

millerms06 · Post by **millerms06** » Fri May 31, 2013 11:39 am

cjuve wrote:
2. Runt the dog on your own time against a proven trial dog and see if he has what it takes.
I know a few people who do the later and the percentages they get are pretty darn good.
Either way this is how trailing came to be in the first place.
And who is the Judge? Percentages of what?

The only way to tell if your dog has what it takes to be a champion is to compete.

You do not think the owner of said trial dog would politely comment to the other owner "you got one heck of a dog" if said non trial dog was better than the trial dog? Isn't that what happens in trials? Is there not a collective consensus of positive qualities determining which dog is better on that day? Are you saying the field trialer is incapable of recognizing the same things a judge is supposed to?

I do not think the original poster meant for this topic about becoming a champion, rather dogs not given the opportunities to compete and potentially place in trials.

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Fri May 31, 2013 11:44 am

DonF wrote:So which venue provides the standard of excellence?

I think that is just ones self opinion. Some people prefer a VC dog over a MH dog, or FC. Dog exc. It's all really what someone is after that makes it an "excellent" title. Jmho

But I think tracking has excellent in one title

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri May 31, 2013 12:14 pm

millerms06 wrote:Are you saying the field trialer is incapable of recognizing the same things a judge is supposed to

That most certainly depends on the experience and ability of both the field trialer and the judge you are comparing, and the objectiveness of either.

To the original poster's thought which can remain nothing other than hypothetical, my opinion is that the measure of difference or capability is not likely to be the dog; rather it is the owner or handler and their experience and/or ability.

millerms06 · Post by **millerms06** » Fri May 31, 2013 12:25 pm

Chukar12 wrote:
millerms06 wrote:Are you saying the field trialer is incapable of recognizing the same things a judge is supposed to
That most certainly depends on the experience and ability of both the field trialer and the judge you are comparing, and the objectiveness of either.

To the original poster's thought which can remain nothing other than hypothetical, my opinion is that the measure of difference or capability is not likely to be the dog; rather it is the owner or handler and their experience and/or ability.

And I absolutely 100% agree with you chukar

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Fri May 31, 2013 12:35 pm

campgsp wrote:
DonF wrote:So which venue provides the standard of excellence?
I think that is just ones self opinion. Some people prefer a VC dog over a MH dog, or FC. Dog exc. It's all really what someone is after that makes it an "excellent" title. Jmho

But I think tracking has excellent in one title

And some look at the AF open AA

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Fri May 31, 2013 12:55 pm

I think about it all the time. The best female from my litter is sitting on a sofa in Gerogia doing nothing. A hand full of the other litter mates rocking at a really young age. Breeders award at 7 months , 2 prize 1 UT before 18 months, 4 running UT this fall under 2 years old and the best dog never got ran. Just how well could that female turned out. Just never no. I all so see dogs better suited for a certain venees and they go a different path like big run dogs end up in NAVHDA an never get the chance to trail, strong water drive dogs go to MH or FTs. The bueaty of it is this these dogs are so great and willing they adapt to anything we give them in most cases. My oldest female use to draw a gallary crowd at MH tests to just to watch her run. More than one judge encourged me to run her in FTs they said she would clean house thats coming from FT judges not me. I dont no what it takes to win at that game. It was my intent to do so but Unfortunatly after a emergency surgery and a emergency spay shes now not physicaly caplable . So i will never no. It sucks probaly the best dog i will ever own done by 3 years old after attaining MH VC at young age. Its always should of could of would of its just how it is, keeps the world going around.

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Fri May 31, 2013 12:56 pm

millerms06 wrote:
cjuve wrote:
2. Runt the dog on your own time against a proven trial dog and see if he has what it takes.
I know a few people who do the later and the percentages they get are pretty darn good.
Either way this is how trailing came to be in the first place.
And who is the Judge? Percentages of what?

The only way to tell if your dog has what it takes to be a champion is to compete.
You do not think the owner of said trial dog would politely comment to the other owner "you got one heck of a dog" if said non trial dog was better than the trial dog? Isn't that what happens in trials? Is there not a collective consensus of positive qualities determining which dog is better on that day? Are you saying the field trialer is incapable of recognizing the same things a judge is supposed to?

I do not think the original poster meant for this topic about becoming a champion, rather dogs not given the opportunities to compete and potentially place in trials.

What I am saying is that at best the "Best" is a matter of opinion.

I don't know many trialers that are going to tell someone that their dog is a POS you never know who is going to be judging the next one.

Some people count finds some people look at race and proper application.

What I am saying it is very subjective. It is going to take a different type of animal to compete in different venues. I highly doubt Joe Blow foot hunter's dog is going to have a very good showing against an open AA Horse back dog just probably not going to happen unless you are using a different set of rules for each.

UglyD · Post by **UglyD** » Fri May 31, 2013 1:23 pm

AZ Brittany Guy wrote:I have to believe that a potential National All Age Champion is sitting right now on someone's couch being fed Cheetos'.

Certainly agree with that

UglyD · Post by **UglyD** » Fri May 31, 2013 1:37 pm

Always had the opinion - at least those that I have hunted with, hiked with, camped with and fished with - our dogs were 100 % part of our lives- but only 40% of that was hunting- I have been with dogs that have hunted as well as anything I have ever seen- those same dogs were my best buds camping and hiking.
I have a PP right now and one at 14 weeks- the older dog is a good as I have seen- he never will be trialed because I enjoy doing so many other things also.
I also have pack goats that I pack in with- the older dog is as good as packing dog and camping dog as it gets and I wouldn't trade a thing for it. The younger dog I expect to be the same. I sure respect the owners that do trial and am in awe at some of the dogs I have gone and watched but to many of us when the hunt draws near all focus is there but what some see as an off-season for not continuing we see as just another endeavor to focus on- from hunting to back packing to cross country skiing- my dogs never get out of shape.

RCB · Post by **RCB** » Fri May 31, 2013 1:46 pm

I would say without a doubt there are dogs that are used strictly for hunting that could have been national contenders if they were trained to be trial dogs from the onset. I believe I would not be far off by saying that a third to a half of the trial bred litters go to hunters to begin with and we all know it is hard to pick a winner at eight weeks of age. Plenty of well bred and genetically capable dogs are meat dogs.

My hunting buddies always select their hunting dogs from AA or big SD litters because they like the way they move, style, etc that comes from these litters. On the flip side I have seen some great dogs that did not have a FC in their pedigree put plenty of birds in the bags. Some of them did not have the range to compete but everything else was their to make them a great dog.

smoothbean · Post by **smoothbean** » Fri May 31, 2013 2:37 pm

DonF , I don't think that was the intent of this topic. Every venue has different requirements that folks train for. Sure some are very similar but some are very different. To me that does not mean that just because a dog is doing well in one venue he could never compete in another that is a very different game, but there will sure be some different training methods involved.
Handlers for sure make a big difference. A great handler with an ok dog can for sure beat a not so great handler with an excellent dog. I think this is one factor that discourages new folks in trying trials. Maybe it is a pride thing so they can't take the not so good runs while learning the game they are playing. Maybe they can't afford to pay the training fees to get a dog where it need to be to compete in a certain game.
The great thing about trial is that there are so many venues to try. There truly is something for everyone. No matter what your skill level as a trainer you can find something to get your dog out and have some fun. This is the main reason it is so unfair to bash one venue. Why not support each others games for the benefit of all bird dogs. The more folks we can get involved in bird dogs the better chance we have at getting a wild huntable quail population back in more parts of the country.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri May 31, 2013 2:57 pm

I have to National Champions lying here in the office with me, They both are top notch bird finders, great family dogs, and loving pets. I have never taken them anyplace and paid to get someone else's opinion, though I did take them to some fun trials and hunt tests. But they are as good as they can be for the purpose I have them and There just isn't much room for improvement.

Now I am sure there are dogs that run faster, last longer, or look prettier, but none of those qualities would make them a better dog, just different. Titles have never proven which dog is better, but are fum to compete in and do tell you which dogs do better in the game they play. So to find the perfect dog, the best way is to find dogs with the qualities you need that will allow them to be the best at performing in the manner that you like and enjoy.

Ezzy

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri May 31, 2013 3:25 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I have to National Champions lying here in the office with me, They both are top notch bird finders, great family dogs, and loving pets. I have never taken them anyplace and paid to get someone else's opinion, though I did take them to some fun trials and hunt tests. But they are as good as they can be for the purpose I have them and There just isn't much room for improvement.

Now I am sure there are dogs that run faster, last longer, or look prettier, but none of those qualities would make them a better dog, just different. Titles have never proven which dog is better, but are fum to compete in and do tell you which dogs do better in the game they play. So to find the perfect dog, the best way is to find dogs with the qualities you need that will allow them to be the best at performing in the manner that you like and enjoy.

Ezzy

I actually agree with that.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Fri May 31, 2013 4:00 pm

Neil wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I have to National Champions lying here in the office with me, They both are top notch bird finders, great family dogs, and loving pets. I have never taken them anyplace and paid to get someone else's opinion, though I did take them to some fun trials and hunt tests. But they are as good as they can be for the purpose I have them and There just isn't much room for improvement.

Now I am sure there are dogs that run faster, last longer, or look prettier, but none of those qualities would make them a better dog, just different. Titles have never proven which dog is better, but are fum to compete in and do tell you which dogs do better in the game they play. So to find the perfect dog, the best way is to find dogs with the qualities you need that will allow them to be the best at performing in the manner that you like and enjoy.

Ezzy
I actually agree with that.

As much as it pains me, so do I. Some of my dogs are better in various venues and some are just born to hunt. I love and treat them all the same.

I have no doubt that there are far more dogs out there that could be top level competitors than those that actually compete.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Fri May 31, 2013 9:36 pm

displaced_texan wrote:
AZ Brittany Guy wrote:I have to believe that a potential National All Age Champion is sitting right now on someone's couch being fed Cheetos'.
I'm feeding Fritos...

In all seriousness, I agree, there are some AMAZING dogs out there that are never trialed to a great extent.

Fritos are good....

CHJIII · Post by **CHJIII** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:13 am

Neil wrote:
CHJIII wrote:I can pretty much say for sure that my avatar GSP Ranger would not only have competed, but he would have done very well, if I had chose to trial him.
Not sure how you could know that, I am sure he is a nice dog, but do very well in trials? I only know one way to prove that.

Don't have to prove nothing to anyone. Hence, I don't trial. Saw his dad run....Seen him run... that's all I need

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:43 am

ACooper wrote:I wonder why more dogs aren't given the opportunity?

I see several dogs at our Navhda days that would show well in a walking FT, there is a setter than would run HB if he was given the chance, these dogs are well trained so its not about level of training, I try to talk these guys into running dogs in trials, most just don't seem interested.

Oklahoma also has an active NSTRA region, I wish some of these fellas would show up and run AKC trials.

Oklahoma has very little NSTRA and the guys I've spoken with are not interested in running broke trials.

vols fan · Post by **vols fan** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:39 am

Many good replies. Yes, nothing to prove and I know many folks have no interest in trials.I am sure the the 6 out of 20 from my two litters are not the only in the litters that could have, no way the 6 people interested in trials pulled out the only 6 that could excel in trials. Highly unlikely don't you think?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:19 pm

Evaluating potential is always tough, it is why Derbies are so hard to judge. Almost impossible in your own dogs.

I think my sister has the old news clippings my mother saved that proclaimed me a sure thing for the NFL, I never got close. Mom continued to love me.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 5:04 pm

I agree

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:22 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I have to National Champions lying here in the office with me, They both are top notch bird finders, great family dogs, and loving pets. I have never taken them anyplace and paid to get someone else's opinion, though I did take them to some fun trials and hunt tests. But they are as good as they can be for the purpose I have them and There just isn't much room for improvement.

Now I am sure there are dogs that run faster, last longer, or look prettier, but none of those qualities would make them a better dog, just different. Titles have never proven which dog is better, but are fum to compete in and do tell you which dogs do better in the game they play. So to find the perfect dog, the best way is to find dogs with the qualities you need that will allow them to be the best at performing in the manner that you like and enjoy.

Ezzy

Well put.
Out of the last litter, maybe two or three of the pups even went to hunting homes, much less competition homes. We were just concerned with getting the pups into great homes.

GWPtyler · Post by **GWPtyler** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:18 am

One obvious thing to take into account is simply expense. Entry fees for trials aren't cheap for people with mortgages and car payments and soccer practices and ballet recitals and $4 gas in their 14/MPG SUVs. Heck, even if they had the time, they'd spend more money just traveling for the trial than the trial itself. Considering you have to run several trials in order to get a title, this adds up.

I'm a strong believe that, unless you have friends or are in a family who trials, you are very unlikely to just pick up the sport. Dog stuff, in general, can be fairly intimidating. Add in a competition where, let's face it, some guys will do whatever it takes to win, and you don't get a "warm-and-fuzzy" venue to welcome newcomers into the fold.

If I lived in an area where trials were frequent and close by, I'd probably give them a chance. But the only ones I know of are HRC And NSTRA, and the latter takes place like a tour around the region. You have to burn a lot of dinosaur remains in order to stay competitive.

Just not in the cards, at the moment, and with a growing family in the near future, I doubt it ever will be.

Although I should wouldn't mind trying...