Inbred dogs.

Sfd714 · Post by **Sfd714** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:07 pm

M a buddy of mine just got a chessy and i was looking over some papers the guy gave him (which aint the right papers) and noticed back in the family tree the same name popped up behind the sire and the "bleep". Is this a normal thing? Just seemed odd to me.

Rustyoar · Post by **Rustyoar** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:10 pm

There is a difference between inbreeding and line breeding or inline breeding. Line breeding is used and accepted more often than the other. I'm not a breeder or expert by any stretch just had done some reading prior on the subject.

"Inbreeding and linebreeding are NOT the same. inbreeding is breeding two very closely related dogs, mother-son, father-daughter, brother and sister. Linebreeding is breeding two dogs that share relatives several generations back, but DO NOT share the same mother, father or grandparents. Therefore, breeding a male dog and a female dog that share a great-great-great grandfather would be considered linebreeding. Reputable breeders DO NOT inbreed and it should NOT be done. Reputable breeders do however linebreed, this is done to preserve some of the aspects of the line, but it is not in-breeding and reputable breeders are very careful to closely study dogs' pedigrees to make the best possible match. An Outcross is when two dogs that do not share any of the same ancestors within a certain number of generations (I think five, but I'm not sure) are bred."

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 623AA3uD7q

CDN_Cocker · Post by **CDN_Cocker** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:24 pm

It's linebreeding and inbreeding happen quite often, its how lines stay strong. I picked my newest dog because it was the result of a linebreeding (sire's grandfather and dam's father are the same dog). Some of the best dogs out there come from these breedings. I had a choice between 2 litters but chose this one as that dog that was on both sides was an amazing dog and has produced quite a few field champions (the other litter was not a linebreeding). All breeds trace back to a couple key dogs in each one. The gene pools aren't that big (some breeds are bigger than others). Most likely your buddy is going to end up with a GREAT dog!

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:48 pm

I've never seen a father, son litter.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:02 pm

Rustyoar wrote:There is a difference between inbreeding and line breeding or inline breeding. Line breeding is used and accepted more often than the other. I'm not a breeder or expert by any stretch just had done some reading prior on the subject.

"Inbreeding and linebreeding are NOT the same. inbreeding is breeding two very closely related dogs, mother-son, father-son, brother and sister. Linebreeding is breeding two dogs that share relatives several generations back, but DO NOT share the same mother, father or grandparents. Therefore, breeding a male dog and a female dog that share a great-great-great grandfather would be considered linebreeding. Reputable breeders DO NOT inbreed and it should NOT be done. Reputable breeders do however linebreed, this is done to preserve some of the aspects of the line, but it is not in-breeding and reputable breeders are very careful to closely study dogs' pedigrees to make the best possible match. An Outcross is when two dogs that do not share any of the same ancestors within a certain number of generations (I think five, but I'm not sure) are bred."

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 623AA3uD7q

Really!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rustyoar · Post by **Rustyoar** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:08 pm

I just pulled if off Yahoo guys don't get your panties in a bunch if someone had a typo. I'm sure the author meant father daughter.

*There I fixed it for the author so others don't code out about it.

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:17 pm

In laymens terms. (And those are the only terms I know) The theory behind linebreeding and inbreeding is that the practices solidify the positive traits between the two dogs. The resulting puppies are more inclined to possess the desired traits that are reflected in the parents and the generations behind them. "Breeding out" to unrelated dogs is a gamble for some as to what the resulting puppies will be like.

It has been written that if two similiar traits in two related but different dogs that have come from the same background are bred, there's a greater chance of the traits showing up in the resulting offspring. The kicker here is there's also a greater chance of the negative aspects showing up as well. The positives and negatives are more inclined to show with closely related dogs, Mother/Son, Father/Daughter, Brother/Sister. If one can keep puppies and grow them out for a few years inbreeding maybe more acceptable. But if those same puppies are sold and the problems show up later the puppy buyer feels the financial and emotional pinch when problems arise. Line breeding still brings those same positive and negative traits together but with a little more cushion of a greater diversity of gene's for each puppy. Line breeding is Grand Father/Grand Daughter, Aunt/Cousin, Grand Son to Grand Mother.

They say inbreeding can be used to rid a negative trait from a line of animals by inbreeding closely and culling the puppies with the targeted traits. But not many folks have the constitution to do that.

markj · Post by **markj** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:29 pm

Reputable breeders DO NOT inbreed

Best do a bit more research there cause this is not correct at all. Dr. Thornton (First to import gsp) used a father daughter breeding on a few occasions. Same as other dogs. I had a pup from a litter both parents had gen norman as father, was a great litter too. I have also seen brother to sister here on this forum, litter did well.

Sfd714 · Post by **Sfd714** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:35 pm

This is what i was looking at.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:53 pm

A lot of people will breed 1/2 brothers to 1/2 sisters. 1/2 Ban Dee daughters were mated to 1/2 Ban Dee sons a lot in the past. NFC Micro Dot(Hall of Fame dog) came out of a full brother mating a full sister. He turned out okay and produced a lot of winning pups.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:39 pm

Line breeding and inbreeding are different degrees of the same general idea.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:43 pm

Inbreeding is a "proper" term, but linebreeding isn't. The term "linebreed" is, from everything I've read, just strictly a lay term given by animal breeds that basically means a loose inbreeding. The premise behind breeding dogs that are more closely related is that you are more likely to pass along the traits of the parents and grand parents than in looser breedings.

Consider this: You have two ways genes can be "translated" in a dog. The genes can either make up a noticeable trait - something that you can see, touch, smell, feel, hear, whatever - or something that is NOT noticeable. For example, a blue-eyed little boy CANNOT carry a brown-eyed gene. It's impossible because if he had a brown-eyed gene he'd have brown eyes because the gene for brown eyes is dominant, which means if any brown-eyed gene is present, the person will have brown eyes. If, though, the little boy has brown eyes, he may also have a blue-eyed genes. There are to "alleles" (which represent genes) that make up a simple trait. Let's say a capital B represents a dominant brown-eye and a lower case b represents a recessive (or non-dominant) blue-eyed. Then, if the boy gets one allele from his mom and one from his dad he'll have either BB, Bb, bB or bb. These are the possibilities.

BB = Pure dominant brown-eyed boy (this person's kids will all have brown eyes)
Bb = Incomplete dominant brown-eyed boy (this boy could have blue or brown-eyed kids)
bB = Incomplete dominant brown-eyed boy (this boy could have blue or brown-eyed kids)
bb = Pure recessive blue-eyed boy (this boy could never have pure-dominant brown-eyed kids)

The only one of the above that would have blue eyes would be the bb. Two of the other three would carry the blue-eyed gene, but not be blue-eyed and the pure dominant would have brown eyes and not have any blue-eyed gene. Now, if the blue-eyed boy marries a pure dominant brown-eyed boy the kids would all be Bb or bB because one b would be inherited from the father and one B would be inherited for the mother. All these kids with the Bb or bB would have brown eyes, but would carry the blue gene.

This is why a poor bite, which is recessive, will go away then come back through several generations. Some dogs may carry the gene and pass it on from generation to generation, but if the gene is never paired up with another recessive poor-bite gene from another dog then none of the puppies will be pure recessive for a poor bite and will only be carriers. That's one place inbreeding can come in handy. Brother and sisters are more likely to have similar genes, so if you breed them together and don't get any bad bites, then you can be more assured that both dogs are pure dominant for good bites than you could be with two dogs who aren't related. Bites are not as simple as the eye example above, though. Color is VERY simple, but each tooth's placement and all the architecture of a mouth will have it's own gene which outlines the makeup of it, so instead of BB, bb, Bb or bB, you'll end up with something more like JKlLPmnDliDSoAleeksOksoDQsi. That's maybe a little exagerated, but you get my point.

With all this out there, if you think about it you can see how, if you have a gene pool (a gene pool is just a collection of genes you have within a population of animals, like a line of dogs) that are full of great genes and not fettered with a bunch of poor genes, you'll be more likely to engrain those great traits and can slowly keep weeding out poor genes while retaining good genes and keeping them prevalent in your line. If you have poor dogs or dogs riddled with poor genes, even if they're not expressed in the dog and the dog is just a carrier, the worst thing in the world you could do is breed him, especially to a close relative.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:21 pm

Google 'Erin's Bad River' and take a look at his pedigree.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:34 pm

It's linebreeding if it works, inbreeding if it doesn't. Any questions?

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:38 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:It's linebreeding if it works, inbreeding if it doesn't. Any questions?

Ditto.. They are breeding the pointers way to tight for my liking now.. Wonder when they will hit the wall?

Mo

big swill · Post by **big swill** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:39 pm

"Now, if the blue-eyed boy marries a pure dominant brown-eyed boy..."

The only way these two are having a kid with any color eyes is if they adopt. (I know it was a typo, just kidding around).

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:01 pm

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:27 pm

The only way these two are having a kid with any color eyes is if they adopt.

Nah, Elton and his man had a gal take some of his seed and made them a baby, then they took seed from elton and made another. Yep they is parents, dad and dad......sick but true....

Steve007 · Post by **Steve007** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:25 pm

[quote="Wenaha"][img]pedigree%20above[/img][/quote

That's a perfectly excellent example of a linebred pedigree, and will yield consistency in the quality of a litter. Though admittedly, proper selection of individuals is what you can't tell just by pedigree.

Plenty of people who can train a dog well don't know beans about intelligent breeding. But most think they do.

EK Cottontop · Post by **EK Cottontop** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:11 pm

I was taught the King Theory of breeding which is the sire of the sire should be the grand-sire of the dam. You can also go with the dam of dam is the grand-dam of the sire. I am not opposed to half-sibling matings either. As mentioned above, the point is to double up the good and the bad. Then, keep the good and eliminate the bad. Sometimes the bad lurks below the surface and it takes an inbreeding to clearly identify the issue and the carrier. When you do a total outcross you are basically starting over. I am a big fan of the motherline concept as well. Breeding within a family with slight outcrosses, builds up the consistancy and the strength of the dogs. (The most important part is to be aware of the individual dogs involved and not rely on a paper breeding.) Wehle and other breeders have done this quite successfully. We had an accidental brother-sister breeding a few years back. A couple pups were really great, a few mediocre, and a couple not so great, but it allowed us to see what was working and what was not. I disagree with the popular belief that linebred litters are necessarily more prone to defects than an outcrossed litter.. As indicated above a few pups were above average and a few below. If you had a total outcross litter, I believe the ratio would be the same. I have never known of any breeding that produced all perfect pups. The reason we have English pointers, Labrador Retrievers, and German Shorthaired Pointers as well as the other several breeds, is because the folks way before us employed these techniques.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:32 pm

a question which has been around for a long time check out page 29 on http://books.google.com/books?id=Ly0CAA ... &q&f=false

EK Cottontop · Post by **EK Cottontop** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:41 am

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing, Kninebirddog.

markj · Post by **markj** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:07 am

I read from a German breeder they dont follow this type of breeding as much since all their dogs share common genes. Could this be true? Like all of their dogs are related closely? Didnt get an answer when I sent an email asking for an explanation.

Used to sit by Dads knee as he and other horsemen talked about breeding the best race thoughobred. Dad had a few won a lot of races the stud was out of seattle slew lines They called it Nicing, now they have a computer program that lets you enter the stud and dam it shows you the best nic for either one. Has anyone developed anything like that for the dogs? Takes a huge database like the one the jockey club has, goes back to the original 4 I belive.

Cattle breeding has also taken a good turn, breed a hereford to a angus, take heifer wich will be a black baldy (white face) and then breed it to an angun to make a beef cow has muscle mass like hereford but bone structure of the angus, works well as the steer in my freezer tells me

yum yum

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:16 am

markj wrote:I read from a German breeder they dont follow this type of breeding as much since all their dogs share common genes. Could this be true? Like all of their dogs are related closely? Didnt get an answer when I sent an email asking for an explanation.

Used to sit by Dads knee as he and other horsemen talked about breeding the best race thoughobred. Dad had a few won a lot of races the stud was out of seattle slew lines They called it Nicing, now they have a computer program that lets you enter the stud and dam it shows you the best nic for either one. Has anyone developed anything like that for the dogs? Takes a huge database like the one the jockey club has, goes back to the original 4 I belive.

Cattle breeding has also taken a good turn, breed a hereford to a angus, take heifer wich will be a black baldy (white face) and then breed it to an angun to make a beef cow has muscle mass like hereford but bone structure of the angus, works well as the steer in my freezer tells me yum yum

And that is the breeding plan using many of the large continental breeds. Use to market our Angus steers at 900 to 1000, Herford's at 1000 to 1100, And now at 1300 t0 1500 lbs.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:41 am

This is a terminal cross in beef breeding, the offspring are not used for breeding and basically the crossbreds only have to produce more and better beef. Dogs have stricter criteria.
All the dog breeding theories are just that. It is still a game of chance and linebreeding is a polite name for inbreeding.
With millions of dollars spent buy experts ,who know much more than any of us, on thorobred breeding, track times haven't improved and it has been a long time since a horse has one the triple crown.
You can't fool mother nature. Cj

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:02 am

cjhills wrote:This is a terminal cross in beef breeding, the offspring are not used for breeding and basically the crossbreds only have to produce more and better beef. Dogs have stricter criteria.
All the dog breeding theories are just that. It is still a game of chance and linebreeding is a polite name for inbreeding.
With millions of dollars spent buy experts ,who know much more than any of us, on thorobred breeding, track times haven't improved and it has been a long time since a horse has one the triple crown.
You can't fool mother nature. Cj

The cattle are bred for many other characteristics but was using them as an example.

I think what we are talking about is breeding related animals and what we are likely to get. We can call it what ever we want so that we all have a better understanding of what everyone is doing. But you are right, you can't fool Mother Nature but we sure can help her along the way which gets us to where we want to go much quicker. And of course when you get to where you were going it gets much harder to raise the bar to the next level that has never been achieved before. Plus the one thing that holds us all back is none of us can agree to just what the goal really is and what it takes to get there.

Ezzy

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:31 am

kninebirddog wrote:a question which has been around for a long time check out page 29 on http://books.google.com/books?id=Ly0CAA ... &q&f=false

I forgot to add that this was written by Edward Laverack in 1872 when he is 72 years old.....He also was worried back then about what the bench titles would do to the breeds. Wonder what he would say about the field and show setters of today

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:12 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:a question which has been around for a long time check out page 29 on http://books.google.com/books?id=Ly0CAA ... &q&f=false

I forgot to add that this was written by Edward Laverack in 1872 when he is 72 years old.....He also was worried back then about what the bench titles would do to the breeds. Wonder what he would say about the field and show setters of today

He would say they look a lot like what we were breeding for. It is the modern field setter that has changed due in our country due to a completely different environment and purpose.

Ezzy

markj · Post by **markj** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:46 pm

it has been a long time since a horse has one the triple crown.

Many say this is due to successful in or linebreeding. The horses are much closer these days with the guys ultrasounding the hearts and checking lung capacity. It has increased over the years, horses were necropsied and hearts were weighed in the old days. Now ultrasound tells them who has the heart to run. Our stud was made a stud due to a injury, he broke his nose and could breathe out of one nostril. I got a tape at aqueduc he came out of the gate, fell to his knees, jock held on that horse won that race. Came from behind like 20 and whipped right on by. Not saying he was a contender for triple but he came from one and his offspring won a lot of money which is what that is all about.

I was using these to show the diff in breeding practises in animals. Sorry you missed that. I am not the genius, but I learnt from one. With dogs find the ones you favor and breed for the best you can get.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:25 pm

markj wrote:
it has been a long time since a horse has one the triple crown.
Many say this is due to successful in or linebreeding. The horses are much closer these days with the guys ultrasounding the hearts and checking lung capacity. It has increased over the years, horses were necropsied and hearts were weighed in the old days. Now ultrasound tells them who has the heart to run. Our stud was made a stud due to a injury, he broke his nose and could breathe out of one nostril. I got a tape at aqueduc he came out of the gate, fell to his knees, jock held on that horse won that race. Came from behind like 20 and whipped right on by. Not saying he was a contender for triple but he came from one and his offspring won a lot of money which is what that is all about.

I was using these to show the diff in breeding practises in animals. Sorry you missed that. I am not the genius, but I learnt from one. With dogs find the ones you favor and breed for the best you can get.

The question is are they faster. How recently have track records been broken at major races? I didn't miss that. I also am not a genius. I did not learn from one, I don't even know of one. Matter of fact I don't think they exist. With all our info It still takes a good shot of luck.
What's this stud's name?
Cj

southwayno · Post by **southwayno** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:10 pm

rinker wrote:Google 'Erin's Bad River' and take a look at his pedigree.

You forgot the CH..Erins Bad River....How many CH dogs do you have or trained, rinker?

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:15 pm

None, and I certainly meant no disrespect. I believe Ch Erin's Bad River, is the result of a full brothers sister cross. He has been a dominant performer and producer for some time now.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:17 pm

southwayno wrote:
rinker wrote:Google 'Erin's Bad River' and take a look at his pedigree.
You forgot the CH..Erins Bad River....How many CH dogs do you have or trained, rinker?

southwayno must be having a bad day. Or just really likes to troll.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:13 pm

ACooper wrote:
southwayno wrote:
rinker wrote:Google 'Erin's Bad River' and take a look at his pedigree.
You forgot the CH..Erins Bad River....How many CH dogs do you have or trained, rinker?
southwayno must be having a bad day. Or just really likes to troll.

Think you got it.

BellaSpinone · Post by **BellaSpinone** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:02 am

If they are not the right papers doesn't much matter what kind of breeding it is....

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:23 am

BellaSpinone wrote:If they are not the right papers doesn't much matter what kind of breeding it is....

Not saying it never happens but I don't see that as a major problem.

Ezzy

Carolina Gundogs · Post by **Carolina Gundogs** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:55 am

I am surprised more have not commented on this topic. Strategically close bred dogs have been the core of success for many given kennels. Many if not the majority of successful Navhda lines are very very tightly bred. Many of the most well thought of gsp kennels are based on very tightly line bred litters.

I believe I read an article in the past where the late great Bob Wehle commented he wished he had done much more of it in his kennel.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:13 am

Carolina Gundogs wrote:I am surprised more have not commented on this topic. Strategically close bred dogs have been the core of success for many given kennels. Many if not the majority of successful Navhda lines are very very tightly bred. Many of the most well thought of gsp kennels are based on very tightly line bred litters.

I believe I read an article in the past where the late great Bob Wehle commented he wished he had done much more of it in his kennel.

I think there has been a "Lack" of comments because it isn't a big deal as people have learned more about breeding. The big scare or concern came from Roman days and Cleopatra and not from any type of scientific studies.

markj · Post by **markj** » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:03 pm

The question is are they faster.

Never said that

just they are closer.

Pugs Hart was our stud. Out of Slewpy (sire), Who was out of Seattle Slew and Rare Bouqet, Pugs dam was Cidelsia out of Honest Pleasure and Dancing Lark. Theres native dancer, bold ruler etc in the background. Was fun times back then running around the tracks. Met some people, saw some things.