Educate me please Penn or OFA?

[Hattrick]

I would like to hear pros an cons with ur exsperence with these too. Im trying to decide which wat to gowith 1or the other or maybe both.

[philrosenbaum]

BB,

Zeke had his hips x rayed by Dr Benson in Westminster, he was really good. I have inquired about Penn with some of our Vizsla gang and it seems to just be preference as to which test they do.



Phil

[cjhills]

Penn Hip is much more expensive it really pays to shop. I had prices from $350 to $800.
Penn hip uses extended and suppressed views two different radiographs. dogs are given a percentage of where they rank in the breed the lower the number the better the ranking. I think .35 would be about the highest you would compare with good in OFA. you can also do Ofa at the same time, with the same extended view, if the dog is two years or over or prelim if not, at just the cost of the OFA charges. So, if you do Penn Hip, you might as well do both.
You can do Penn Hip at any age, But at this time they do not have a really big data base so it is a bit iffy. Dogs are always sedated for Penn Hip which might be a issue for some people. Most of our OFAs are done without sedation.
You probably get a bit more info from Penn Hip and we have had x-rays we were sure would be excellent come back from OFA as good. I have had people tell me if you go to the right vet you will always get excellent. Don't know, but seems like defeating the purpose.
Some places it is hard to find a vet that does Penn Hip. we had to go 175 miles away to get it done at a sensible price Cj

[Gordon Guy]

The two organizations measure two different things. Someone correct me if I'm wrong... I believe OFA certifies several other areas besides the hip joints. But if you're talking about the hips specifically, OFA measures socket size and charateristics related to how the ball fits into it and Penn hip measures elasticity of the hip joint.

The last vet I used does both (Penn Hip measurements and OFA x-Rays) and it was only 30 more dollars to send in the x-rays to OFA at the same time the xrays and measurements were sent to Penn Hip.

It would be interesting to see if a dog with poor hips as certified by OFA was also rated poorly by Penn Hip...?

Either way, kudo's to you for trying to build a better dog.

[cjhills]

The two organizations measure two different things. Someone correct me if I'm wrong... I believe OFA certifies several other areas besides the hip joints. But if you're talking about the hips specifically, OFA measures socket size and charateristics related to how the ball fits into it and Penn hip measures elasticity of the hip joint.

The last vet I used does both (Penn Hip measurements and OFA x-Rays) and it was only 30 more dollars to send in the x-rays to OFA at the same time the xrays and measurements were sent to Penn Hip.

It would be interesting to see if a dog with poor hips as certified by OFA was also rated poorly by Penn Hip...?

Either way, kudo's to you for trying to build a better dog.

Pretty sure a dog with poor hips would be poor either in OFA or PennHip. the difference would more likely be between excellent and good or good and fair.
Forgot one thing, each hip is graded separately in Penn Hip Cj

[kninebirddog]

OFA rate the hips and has a place where people can go see your dog and those dogs that are directly related to your dog that have been done

PENN Hip though it does evaluate the hips also it pools the info for where the dog falls in a percentile of all the dogs that have been done in your breed and then it also states that your dogs percentile can change as more dogs are entered in the database...the other thing on PENN Hip is that unless you and your clients know what is acceptable the numbers, the number then means very little as for an example a person who's dog rates out as a .60 wouldn't pass OFA so with OFA this dog wouldn't be bred, but in PENN hip this dog would still be bred with PENN Hip saying to breed to a lower numbered penn hip dog such as a .40 or because the person doesn't understand that has this dog has less then adequate hips for breeding and then there are some breeders knowing full well the .60 dog fails OFA and uses PENN hip as an excuse because they feel the dog is worthy to be bred to.

BOTTOM line neither will ever stop Hip dyplasia neither is perfect and we are human not God...but at least JMHO OFA it is easy enough for the average person to really understand a dog passes and gets a number or it fails .. No clouding the marginal in a pool of percentiles and fancy numbering system

[Gordon Guy]

[quote="cjhills
Pretty sure a dog with poor hips would be poor either in OFA or PennHip. the difference would more likely be between excellent and good or good and fair.
Forgot one thing, each hip is graded separately in Penn Hip Cj[/quote]

To support what you stated, the dog in my Avatar (Pete) was "scored" using Penn Hip as .92 and .94 +/-, which is really high, and rated "Good" by OFA.

Also, There have been two occasions when my Vet said "Your dogs hips will not pass OFA", but I chose to send the X-rays in to OFA anyway. There's a lot (passion, money and time) riding on one persons opinion and getting a second opinion was only $30.00 away. Both times OFA rated the hips "Good". Which leads me to think about all those dogs that have been spayed or neutered because of one vets opinion without getting a second opinion from the folks who see thousands of hip x-rays. Spend the $30 for a second opinion.

Edited: It appears that my numbers .92 and .94 are incorrect. Maybe it was the top 92% +/- of other Gordons.. Sorry...I'm gettong old and can remember stuff!

[Hattrick]

Good points. I was wondering how the two compare. My vet was telling me he had a brit client that had a pour penn in the lower percent of median for a brit. They went ahead an did ofa an they came back as excellent. The median for GSP is 0.33. would the median be compared to a rating of GOOD OFA you think? Or would it be were excellent begins? Where i get alittle confused is thinking sum laxity is good in hips just comparing to human athelets. Take a cornerback in football. Tight hip guys dont make the cut it restricts movement. Thinking whats better you have a dog score 0.24 r 0.33l which is better than normal Then you have a 0.37 -0.37. the 0.37 is just under the median but equal both sides. The first is abetter rating but not equal from side to side, with that said would one side over compensate an cause damge to the other = maybe the 0.37 rating might be less wear on the dog even tho its a little looser. Just food for thought

[wems2371]

A friend just posted their penn hip results, and I was revisiting information, since I didn't realize it could be done on a puppy. Anyway, I thought this link was interesting. I'm pretty sure Solon is or was on GDF too.

http://forum.smallmunsterlander.info/vi ... f=2&t=1698

[kninebirddog]

A friend just posted their penn hip results, and I was revisiting information, since I didn't realize it could be done on a puppy. Anyway, I thought this link was interesting. I'm pretty sure Solon is or was on GDF too.

http://forum.smallmunsterlander.info/vi ... f=2&t=1698

Yes it can be done on a pup so can OFA for that fact...on OFA as a pup it will not be part of permanent record http://www.offa.org/hd_prelims.html

the only thing I can say there is my vet and I did a series of xrays on some pups from 10-16 weeks then after
personally I would never and I mean NEVER grade a pup on x rays under 16 weeks as they are still growing ..I would wait till after 7 months at least before spending the money on OFA much less PENN hip which is much more

[big swill]

Since I've dealt with alot of German shepherds and Mals in my day I had to get very familiar with hip and elbow xrays. It may have already been stated. Penn Hip works off of a distraction index. They sedate the dog, seat the hip joint as tight as possible, and then put a bar between the dog's legs to push out or distract the ball from the socket. That's where the # comes from, how far does the ball move out of the socket. And yes, you can have a dog go .25 on one side and .52 on the other. Most of the breeders I've dealt with won't breed anything over .40 on the Penn Hip. Ideally you want them in the .3's or lower. The best I've ever seen was a German shepherd female with .12/.10. I doubt I ever see anything that good again. .60 doesn't always fall into OFA poor. It can, and often does fall into OFA fair. On the Penn Hip scale .50 is average; the scale runs from .00 to 1.00. That's where eveything gets jumbled and sunbjective in IMO. In my experience, there is no point in xraying a dog before 12 months. I've seen pups scanned at 6 months and the hips come back over .5 only to be scanned again at 18 months and the hips are in the .3's. As long as there is growing going one there is a chance that the hip scores fluctuate, thus why OFA wants you to wait so long before the do an "official" score. I,too, have seen breeders who will breed a dog w/ .45 on both sides in Penn Hip to a dog with .25 in an effort to average out hip scores on the offspring. But if there is any dog in a pup's pedigree that had full blown dysplasia, everything after that can be a carrier. I've always OFA'd dogs. When you see enough hip joints you know what you're looking at. OFA good will typically score in the .3's and .4's on the Penn Hip, OFA excellent in the .2's (typically). IMO, one is as good as the other. Everyone's looking for the tightest hips possible. For me, OFA is better. I've never xrayed before 18 months anyway and OFA will do elbows as well. NOt to mention it is a little cheaper.

[SwitchGrassWPG]

There are no comparision between Penn Hip measurements and OFA grading. Each body uses different techniques for their evaulations. I know of a dog that has a PennHip measurement greater than .45 in each hip and OFA graded Excellent. With this PennHip measurement, they ranked in the 40th percentile for the breed.

[Munster]

I like that Penn Hipp allows for you to test a younger dog. When I was looking to add a breeding prospect to my home, I didnt want to have the dog around for 2 years and then find out it was dysplastic, have to send it down the road and start over. That is way to much heartache and money to invest. Still, I wouldnt test a dog to young. I did Abby at 18 months-, Max at 14 months-. I recently did Baja at 10 months. But that is because I may do her breed sow test in Germany. I didnt want to invest in airfare and all that if the possibility of her not being breedable was there.
Just saying that Penn Hipp would allow a breeder to find the right prospect to add to their breeding program without having to wait 2 years to know what hips are like.

What is interesting is seeing how a breed improves or doesnt.
My first SM scored a .42/.42. At that time the median was .41 and only 90 dogs had tested.
Max was scored as >24/.28 and at that time his hips were the tightest in the breed with 157 dogs tested, the median being .40.
Today, 3 years later, I got Baja's report back and hers is .24/.29 and she is only in the top 90% of the breed with 194 dogs tested.Median being .39

So the more dogs test, the more the median changes.

So, I wonder what the first 10 dogs in Penn Hipp looked like?

Below is what a Penn Hipp report looks like for those that dont know. It is kinda cool that they advise you t breed to tighter hips. It is a no brainer to some, maybe not all.

had to direct link it because of size I guess.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a39/la ... d73aba.jpg

[Ruffshooter]

OFA is a judgement,
Penn Hip is strictly scientific measurement.
A dog of any breed that has a measurement closer to .30 knows their dog has near or excellent hips that have a less likely hood of displaysia.SP.
The percentile is breed specific and does change with the number of dogs of that breed increases. As far as a dog with .60 hips that generally is a dog that already has some level of displaysia. That is also a known and will be stated on the report ( Ihave one). Most will not breed that animal if they are doing penn hip. But there are unscrupulous people everywhere even in those that use OFA.

Too many times you see OFA fair dogs bred. Poor, Fair good Excellent. there is a certain range of what that interpetation is. Those that are responsible would not breed a fair dog to a fair dog, (which is done all the time.) IMO nor would I buy a dog done like that.

In Penn Hip the goal is to bring the scores of the dogs down on all breeds. Some like GSP's are getting down there and are more consitant in the scores. I have a friend that used to breed GSP. He used the Penn Hip and got his breedings hip scores down by abiding to a strict policy of always breeding
lower scores. If two dogs had .40 he would not breed those two he would source out to find a great dog that hand a lower score.

Anyway, so long as people that like the judgements of OFA or the measurements of Penn HIP, and use them properly and ethically, then the breeds will be better for it. Especially the larger breeds. IMO

Oh by the way, had Buster a EB done at 9 months, then again around 4 or 5 years, only one side number changed. As a pup it was .35 and as an adult it was, .37 and the other side was still .35.

[ohmymy111]

I have done two dog with both PennHip and OFA. The first female I did the OFA at 1 year of age and she came back borderline. I did her PennHip a year later and she came back .35/.35. She is an EB and not enough of the breed were in the database so they compared her to ALL dogs that had been PennHip'd. She was in the 90th percentile.

The 2nd female I did PennHip 1st. She was .58/.58 with PennHip and "Fair" with OFA. I was expecting a rating of "Mild" or worse after the PennHip results

So my question has always been, Which is it? I will always have an issue with Hip certifications. I will still do them, but when you have competing methods that don't align in their ratings, how can you trust either of them? I have my doubts as to the validity of either method. I have looked for and been unable to find any study that tested the dogs when young, say 2 years of age, and then again when they are 10 or so years of age. Until I see studies of that nature, and maybe they are out there, I am not certain you can really rely on either method as the final say for hips.

[cjhills]

I too have issues with both systems. I have a male gsp who's OFA came back fair. My vet who as done many OFA X-rays was quite surprised as was I. We thought they would be at least good. I decided to PennHip him and redo his OFA. Penn Hip was .30 right and .30 left and OFA good.
It is not hard to see problem hips on a radiograph if you have seen enough of them. I think the X-rays are a good way to evaluate dogs you want to breed, but go with a vet who knows what to look for and will go over the x-rays with you. They are a tool to use in breeding and have reduce the incidence of HD. CJ

[kninebirddog]

OFA also looks at the breed as it can hardly compare a bulldogs hips to a brittany hip

Another thing it is far better to breed to a fair with a good back ground then it is to an excellent with a poor background.

And when you really put it into prospective We are not Gods ..we can only do our due diligence and breed those dogs that have the desired traits with passing hips ...Breeding an excellent to an excellent will not guarantee that all the pups will be passing much less excellent and to think it is, is pretty arrogant when it comes to think we humans have real control over nature.
If you breed long enough it isn't a matter of IF it is a matter of when and that is where the real breeder gets separated from the wannabes as a real breeder will step up to the plate and do the best they can.
I only post the dogs I breed are OFA'd Records are there on the www.offa.org website for potential buyer to review as a fair doesn't guarantee poor hips no more then an excellent will guarantee excellent hips.

[big swill]

OFA also looks at the breed as it can hardly compare a bulldogs hips to a brittany hip

Another thing it is far better to breed to a fair with a good back ground then it is to an excellent with a poor background.

And when you really put it into prospective We are not Gods ..we can only do our due diligence and breed those dogs that have the desired traits with passing hips ...Breeding an excellent to an excellent will not guarantee that all the pups will be passing much less excellent and to think it is, is pretty arrogant when it comes to think we humans have real control over nature.
If you breed long enough it isn't a matter of IF it is a matter of when and that is where the real breeder gets separated from the wannabes as a real breeder will step up to the plate and do the best they can.
I only post the dogs I breed are OFA'd Records are there on the http://www.offa.org website for potential buyer to review as a fair doesn't guarantee poor hips no more then an excellent will guarantee excellent hips.

I think you make some excellent points in this post. I completely agree; breeding two dogs with great hip scores doesn't mean the pups will have the same. The German shepherd I referenced in my previous post is a good example. While her hips were fantastic, her offspring always scored in the .3's. While they had good scores, they weren't as tight as the mother. There really is no guarantee, as you said. Responsible breeders understand that you don't handcuff yourself genetically with a breeding, especially where health is concerned.