Trial ?

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:54 pm

I really have trbl finding what the draw is to trialing. Not that I don't appreciate the effort that goes into a trial hound. I considered the Navhda venue for my hound Creek via the push from our breeder (Navhda judge). I sent photo's to the breeder of Creek retrieving a pigeon that I shot over water after he pointed & held until I walked in & flushed, Creek was around five months old at the time & I felt he did an exceptional job. She replied that I need to only throw canvas dummies & to bring people out to line the banks of pond to simulate Navhda testing & for Creek to get use to people watching. "How does this simulate wild bird hunting?" is what crossed my mind, I lost any interest I had for testing Creek & focused more on a companion/meat dog training regimen. One of the thing's I love most about bird hunting is the solitude & wild experience. Both are eliminated with trialing. Time is valuable so I would just soon focus effort's on running Creek on wild birds or just take him on a hike in the woods than trial. I personally feel he get's way more out of the hikin/runnin on wild birds experience than any trial. Different strokes for different folk's ya know & maybe I'm missing something here but what is it about trialing that makes it appealing to you?

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:09 pm

NAVHDA is a test which differs from a Trial where the dog is judged by a standard and doesn't compete against other dogs. I can't speak about why a bunch of people would be lining the banks as the only time that I've tested for NAVHDA it was just me, my dog and judges at the line. The bottom line though is that the dog should be able to focus on the job at hand regardless of how many people are around.

Trials and tests are not for everyone but they allow many of us a venue to work our dogs and enjoy watching them work. (I.E. lack of wild birds).

Jagerdawg · Post by **Jagerdawg** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:13 pm

NAVHDA doesn't trial they test. A trial is a competition best dog wins a test the dog is judged against a set of standards. If you don't understand the thrill of competing. To each his own do what makes you happy.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:27 pm

I enjoy meeting like-minded people and watching good dogs.

Gooseman07 · Post by **Gooseman07** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:28 pm

We don't have many wild birds on the Delmarva peninsula. It is the best way, cheapest too, to get my boy on birds. Yes, obviously I have to buy some to train but I can't take him out for a walk or run and get into wild birds to do my training. It is also very rewarding to know that what he is doing come test day, I taught him to do.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:41 pm

It is much easier to just have your dog do whatever it is your dog does without having to live up to any standard.

Just take your dog hunting and then you can be absolutely happy with your dog, regardless of what he does or doesn't do.

You can also brag up how awesome your dog is in the field and that "wild birds is where it is at", thumbing your nose to the approving nods of the "hunting" fraternity.

Personally, I have never met a group that was as snobbish as those who decry trialing/testing their dogs, but as long as your dog is enjoying his life and getting out then what does it really matter to me where anyones nose is.

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:15 pm

slistoe wrote:It is much easier to just have your dog do whatever it is your dog does without having to live up to any standard.

Just take your dog hunting and then you can be absolutely happy with your dog, regardless of what he does or doesn't do.

You can also brag up how awesome your dog is in the field and that "wild birds is where it is at", thumbing your nose to the approving nods of the "hunting" fraternity.

Personally, I have never met a group that was as snobbish as those who decry trialing/testing their dogs, but as long as your dog is enjoying his life and getting out then what does it really matter to me where anyones nose is.

Really no need for thee attitude, it's a legitimate question. Take a deep breath ole timer, knock the chip off your shoulder and try again

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:37 pm

slistoe wrote:It is much easier to just have your dog do whatever it is your dog does without having to live up to any standard.

Just take your dog hunting and then you can be absolutely happy with your dog, regardless of what he does or doesn't do.

You can also brag up how awesome your dog is in the field and that "wild birds is where it is at", thumbing your nose to the approving nods of the "hunting" fraternity.

Personally, I have never met a group that was as snobbish as those who decry trialing/testing their dogs, but as long as your dog is enjoying his life and getting out then what does it really matter to me where anyones nose is.

Appears you are the one with a nose problem when you constantly find fault with anyone and everyone that doesn't believe what you belief. Here is a case where a question was asked without a single word of disdain but just an explanation of what he enjoys and wondering why you or anyone else enjoys something else.. Seems like a good question and asked in a sincere way, just wanting to here what others think without trying to run everyone down. We all have different taste and there is not a single one of them better than the other.

Ezzy

Kmack · Post by **Kmack** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:29 pm

It is perfectly natural for someone lacking the knowledge, exposure, and understanding of things outside their own , limited, universe to question their appeal to others. One shall never find the answer from behind a keyboard on the internet. The only way to understand the appeal is to get a really good dog, pay your entries, and compete. The pleasure one derives from watching his/her dog being competitive against dogs which have proven themselves to be among the best in the country can only be felt, appreciated, and enjoyed through participation. The beauty that you don't understand is that trialers get all of the same experiences you get with your dogs plus that added enjoyment of something similar in the off season. Trialing is not something which replaces what you do with your dogs, it is something we do in addition to what you do which bring us more of the similar enjoyment you get from your rather limited use of your own dogs.

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:17 pm

similar enjoyment you get from your rather limited use of your own dogs.

Well this seem's hopeless. That would be one dog (uno). Limited, not hardly Creek has expansive opportunities as a hunting, companion hound. Meaning he travels everywhere he possibly can with me. When not hunting he is run on wild bird's as is legally possible and then some. When not on wild bird's he enjoy's hiking the Wasatch range as well as the Uintah's, Manti La Sal's and the Fishlake National Forest. Basically he is free to explore his surrounding's. Not to say he is without discipline as all my hounds must have good manner's in the home and the field alike. Are trial people really this easily offended? Can you not type what appeal's to you about trials without the insult's? Not that I mind, I'm just wondering

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:38 pm

You really feel you had an honest question???
""How does this simulate wild bird hunting?" ..., I lost any interest I had for testing"
"Time is valuable so I would just soon focus effort's on running Creek on wild birds or just take him on a hike in the woods than trial"
"he get's way more out of the hikin/runnin on wild birds experience than any trial."

You were dismissive and denigrating to the process and the people.

You have absolutely no idea what is entailed in trialing or testing - as evidenced by the fact that you don't even know that there is a difference.
You have no interest in being educated on what the requirements are or how they are related to the function in the hunting field because you have stated quite emphatically that you already know better how to make a bird dog.
Then you want me to believe that you actually care why I may participate? Well, no you don't, given the response to Kmack's submission on why he participates.

I will tell you one thing about it - your dog will absolutely be a better hunting companion for the effort should you choose to participate.

Jagerdawg · Post by **Jagerdawg** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:18 am

Honest question? I doubt it! Open sincere I don't think so! I have only been to 2 trials my nose isn't in the air looking to be offended. Yet I was offended! You're post continue to be rude. Also seems the moderator has an axe to grind with certain individuals on here. Just my observations from watching. Again have a good day and happy hunting

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:27 am

Living in South Dakota, I'm able get my dogs on wild birds more often than folks living in most other places. I can get them on Huns and sharpies within two minutes of my back yard. They are hunted extensively on four upland species, and get a duck hunt or two in each fall, so they get plenty of exposure to wild birds. That said, they're better field companions due to their NAVHDA training than they would be otherwise. Double marked retrieves, blind retrieves, steadiness in the field and at the blind, backing, etc. are examples of skills that were enhanced through NAVHDA training. I've also had a great time at NSTRA trials. Both the tests and trials take place outside of our hunting seasons, so they provide additional opportunities for my dogs and I to do what we enjoy doing. As someone else mentioned, another huge benefit has been meeting like-minded people, so in addition to having better-trained dogs, I'm also richer in friends and hunting companions because of my involvement in tests and trials.

Seems a bit unfair for the OP to be so critical of tests/trials when he's apparently never attended either, even as a spectator. My advice would be to at least give them a try before writing them off.

Kmack · Post by **Kmack** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:45 am

QuillGordon wrote:I enjoy hunting my dogs and am curious as to what others find enjoyable about running their dogs in field trials and tests. Would you mind providing a brief description of what you like about trialing and testing?

You could have asked a simple question in your OP which was neutral in nature as above and YOU made the decision to do otherwise.

You chose, instead, to include these obviously targeted, insulting barbs which serve no purpose other than to invite a confrontation from those that you chose to imply were somehow faulty in their judgement because they enjoy trialing with their dogs. You sir, began the barrage of insults.

QuillGordon wrote:I really have trbl finding what the draw is to trialing. "How does this simulate wild bird hunting?" is what crossed my mind, I lost any interest I had... One of the thing's I love most about bird hunting is the solitude & wild experience. Both are eliminated with trialing. I would just soon focus effort's on running Creek on wild birds or just take him on a hike in the woods than trial. I personally feel he get's way more out of the hikin/runnin on wild birds experience than any trial. maybe I'm missing something here but what is it about trialing that makes it appealing to you?

The situation was made even worse when a certain moderator chose to join you in your attempt to belittle the trialers among us by overlooking the obviously provocative nature of your post and instead chose to take issue with those who attempted to counter your attack.

You guys who just want to come to a dog related forum and attack all of the others who do things different than what you do bring the insults upon yourself with your "my way or the highway" attitude and are fully deserving of every insulting response you get...

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:10 am

Quill, I LOVE hunting wild birds. I keep a calendar journal, and averaged being out every 2-3 days of season. Should have squeaked in a few more, but not too bad I think, and we had a lot of memorable finds and moments with friends. I continued to work my dog on those same grounds, after season closed. Now nesting season began this week, so public grounds are closed to dogs for 4 months, and I have no wild birds to chase.

I play some dog games and will probably continue to do so, as my budget allows. It's just something different to do during the off season, and it is slightly addictive to prove your dog's talent and yourself as a trainer/handler. Even NAVHDA is competitive in my mind, otherwise people wouldn't puff up and brag about scores at the end of the day, it would be just a pass/fail system. Entering some of these things is motivation to get some training done, and achieve some goals.

In the middle of a couple of NAVHDA tests last year, I did question why I participate. When I added up entry fees, training birds, and such...I'm pretty sure I could have taken a few more hunting trips with that cash. And for me, playing games with pen raised birds, rarely simulates hunting. But again, it's a better habit to have than others available

, and what would I do with the 9.5 months between seasons...and the concurrent 4 months of nesting season, when we can't even scout birds? It's just a good time spent with my dogs and friends. To each their own, but it's hardly worth questioning.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:17 am

slistoe wrote:
You have absolutely no idea what is entailed in trialing or testing - as evidenced by the fact that you don't even know that there is a difference.
You have no interest in being educated on what the requirements are or how they are related to the function in the hunting field because you have stated quite emphatically that you already know better how to make a bird dog.
Then you want me to believe that you actually care why I may participate? Well, no you don't, given the response to Kmack's submission on why he participates.

I will tell you one thing about it - your dog will absolutely be a better hunting companion for the effort should you choose to participate.

That is what he was asking, why do you like the trials and testing so much? When this thread is finished he will still wonder since you just can't seem to answer his question. You have the chance to change someone's mind but instead of explaining what is the reason you like it you are spending your time telling him how stupid he is for asking the question? I know you have enjoyed both with your dogs so what is the reason you can express what you found entising and not try to drive another person away from it? Just doesn't make sense.

Ezzy

PS Nice post Wems

Jagerdawg · Post by **Jagerdawg** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:39 am

If the OP had asked "what do you like about trialing?" That would have been an honest question or asked "what draws you to trialing?" Ezzy those would have been honest questions and I'm sure people would be giving honest answers. Instead the OP showed their ignorance of what testing or trialing is, then devalued it and denigrated it then asks what we could possibly like about it. Looks like you are the one with your nose in the air and your blinders on. Again just my opinion and even I know what that is worth. Happy hunting

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:56 am

Seems a bit unfair for the OP to be so critical of tests/trials when he's apparently never attended either, even as a spectator.

I have attended trials before, not Navhda but a Nstra & Retriever trials. I was almost bored to tears. And the over all attitude seemed just as I'm finding here. I'm sure all trial venue's are not like this or it may be just what's going on here in my neck of the woods.I would like to attend a wild bird dog trial but can't find the time. Priority's I guess. Plus, I haven't heard of one local, the closest being in Idaho. From what I'm gathering it's a good time to shoot the bull and an excuse to train. I get it & thats fabulous if your into that sort of thing. The training I understand, my hound gets at least three night's a week focused purely on training. I could live without the bull though. I guess thats why I take the high road, meaning trails at a higher elevation to escape the human bs. A loner if you will. I just wondered if the appeal was a highly competitive drive thing that some people have and seem to enjoy. Usually when I do something it has a underlying appeal, a niche, knack or just a plain *** interest of some type.

A side note:
Thanks for the rearranging of my words to fit your agenda bud, I appreciate it. I'll call ya if I need you to type out my next post

Johng918 · Post by **Johng918** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:00 am

ezzy333 wrote:
slistoe wrote:
You have absolutely no idea what is entailed in trialing or testing - as evidenced by the fact that you don't even know that there is a difference.
You have no interest in being educated on what the requirements are or how they are related to the function in the hunting field because you have stated quite emphatically that you already know better how to make a bird dog.
Then you want me to believe that you actually care why I may participate? Well, no you don't, given the response to Kmack's submission on why he participates.

I will tell you one thing about it - your dog will absolutely be a better hunting companion for the effort should you choose to participate.

That is what he was asking, why do you like the trials and testing so much? When this thread is finished he will still wonder since you just can't seem to answer his question. You have the chance to change someone's mind but instead of explaining what is the reason you like it you are spending your time telling him how stupid he is for asking the question? I know you have enjoyed both with your dogs so what is the reason you can express what you found entising and not try to drive another person away from it? Just doesn't make sense.

Ezzy

PS Nice post Wems[/quote

What don't make sense is why you go out of your way to say something negative about everything slistoe post? Maybe you should read the other post he is not the only one that had a strong opinion about the OP but you only see one.

madmurph · Post by **madmurph** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:06 am

It seems as if threads on this forum repeatedly end up going down the road of trialing vs. hunting dogs or conformation bred vs. field bred dogs. Most of these threads turn into some type of argument between posters and then there is always the certain moderator that seems to be in the middle of it. :roll: The archives are full of these posts. People need to accept and get over the fact that some of us hunt and test/trial, others only hunt and a few actually only trial. People that compete do it because we enjoy it. Others have no interest to compete and choose to strictly hunt, which is great also. That's it, no need for an argument.

Kmack · Post by **Kmack** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:12 am

QuillGordon wrote:

A side note:
Thanks for the rearranging of my words to fit your agenda bud, I appreciate it. I'll call ya if I need you to type out my next post

Actually, nothing was rearranged. Your words were quoted in the exact order in which they appeared in your post. All I did was omit the fluff around them to expose the exact sentiment and meaning you intended to convey. The accuracy of my interpretation is only being reinforced by your continued efforts to suggest otherwise.

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:16 am

As you see it, assumptions on yer part I assure.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:17 am

I enjoy the competitiveness. The social aspect, hanging out and drinking too much pop with people who like talking about the same things and the bs. Watching a lot of nice dogs do what they do. It is just a sport I enjoy I guess. I get to run my dogs on wild birds probably 100 days a year, sometimes it is nice to run my dogs against someone else.

orbirdhunter · Post by **orbirdhunter** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:28 am

I started running trials mostly because i enjoyed the competition, i enjoyed the company and conversation of the other competitors. And I love watching the other dogs run. It pushes me to train more, train to a higher level etc....
I went to my first trial trial 2yrs ago with the attitude that this was going to be dumb, all these dogs are runoffs, useless non hunters etc,etc,etc....By the end of the day i was filling out apps for the next trial, shopping around for horses and wondering whay i didn't start doing this 10yrs ago...and wondering if i had room for another dog or two at home

It kinda sounds like your just not of the mind set to enjoy trials or tests....You make mention of loving the solitude and quiet of bird hunting. Obviously a test or trial is anything but quiet and solitude. Me, personally i love to pull up a lawn chair and talk dogs with other people at the event all day long after i am done competing.....
So i would say if your the kinda guy that isn't into ruckus and crowds, not the kind of person that can just jump right in so to speak and feel comfortable then its probably not for you.
I know alot of people always talk about the bad attitude of trialers, how snobbish they are etc, etc. Myself with no shy bones in my body just started walking up to people introducing myself and tried to get the info i needed. everybody was nice, welcoming and friendly.
I have also done 1 hunt test. I went to a VJP test for my Drahthaar puppy. The travel was alot longer, the weather was completely horrible and it was a little more boring the trials for me. But i had told my breeder that i would, and i still had alot of fun.
But once again i am the kind of guy that loves talking dogs with people and i love watching other dogs run.....

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:30 am

When you really want to know how others feel you don't begin by closing out avenues of their answer with your own feelings Especially if you are limited in your experience ..very limited. Many people in many disciplines are especially successful people are dismissive of these inquiries because the purpose is suspect and usually a waste of time.

Having said that while you were all arguing on line yesterday I watched enjoyed and learned a lot about dogs yesterday watching 50 plus dogs run I don't own ranging from pups to all age dogs At the end of the day I knew more than at the start ..and while my passion for hunting hasn't and never will wane it is equaled by my passion for bird dogs. Trials provide year round access to lots of bird dogs and access in a measured venue to see the very best from a much larger pool than the circle of folks I care to share my hunts with.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:42 am

And at the end of a rough ride (or walk) looking at dogs butts you can cook up some BBQ and invite everyone to you're camp for free food and tequila tasting.

When it comes to it, everyone there is there for one reason and it doesn't matter if it's a trial test or show. They are they because they love dogs.

Kmack · Post by **Kmack** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:57 am

OK, I'm done with contesting your motivation.

I enjoy trials because it allows me the same pleasures I used to get from hunting in the days when 1.) I was young and could keep up with my dogs all day on foot. 2.) I could easily gain access to private land on which to hunt. 3.) Birds on both private and public lands were plentiful.

The fact that the field trials I frequent (both as an amateur handler/owner and as an owner with dogs handled by pros) are done on horseback allows me to spend long days in the field with dogs, people, and nature which due to my age and lack of physical conditioning I wouldn't otherwise be able to enjoy.

Participation in field trials also gets me access to excellent, unencumbered grounds which would be off limits, and it is guaranteed my dog will have opportunities for bird encounters.

This week, I had a dog running against 83 of the top shooting dogs in the country in the Missouri Open Shooting Dog Championship. I was disappointed to here that he had not made the leader board but excited to here that he had run the country well and had a good find during his hour on the ground. My work schedule would have meant that the dog would have been home in his kennel were it not for the trial.

Next week, he is running in a 68 dog trial at Longton Kansas (Midwest Open Shooting Dog Championship). I hope to be able to get away for the day and ride all of the braces. I will get to see a dozen outstanding dogs while visiting with judges, marshals, handlers, and owners, not to mention the folks who prepare the meals and operate the dog wagon. The best idea I can give you as to what it's like would be that's it's similar to spending your time like an old time cowboy would moving cattle across the prairies.

If that is not appealing to you that's fine. But to make the judgements you seem to have made about the "boring or useless" nature of field trials may keep you from participating in something that you might find extremely enjoyable if you go into it with an open mind.

millerms06 · Post by **millerms06** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:29 am

QuillGordon wrote: Different strokes for different folk's ya know & maybe I'm missing something here but what is it about trialing that makes it appealing to you?

Reading everything I find it puzzling why some people immediately went onto negative defenses when the OP had the above as a closing remark. I would like to highlight "maybe I'm missing something here." Might it have been an opportunity for veteran people to recognize the possibility to create positive remarks for other readers? Personally I just see a person becoming defensive instead of gaining more perspective. I appreciated Rinker and Gooseman07 comments as they initially took it as an opportunity, not an argument.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:37 am

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:And at the end of a rough ride (or walk) looking at dogs butts you can cook up some BBQ and invite everyone to you're camp for free food and tequila tasting. When it comes to it, everyone there is there for one reason and it doesn't matter if it's a trial test or show. They are they because they love dogs.

Ditto! Any time you can spend a day around bird dogs and like minded people talking dogs, whether participating or simply watching and socializing, it is a good time.

Charlie

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:13 pm

orbirdhunter wrote:I started running trials mostly because i enjoyed the competition, i enjoyed the company and conversation of the other competitors. And I love watching the other dogs run. It pushes me to train more, train to a higher level etc....
I went to my first trial trial 2yrs ago with the attitude that this was going to be dumb, all these dogs are runoffs, useless non hunters etc,etc,etc....By the end of the day i was filling out apps for the next trial, shopping around for horses and wondering whay i didn't start doing this 10yrs ago...and wondering if i had room for another dog or two at home

It kinda sounds like your just not of the mind set to enjoy trials or tests....You make mention of loving the solitude and quiet of bird hunting. Obviously a test or trial is anything but quiet and solitude. Me, personally i love to pull up a lawn chair and talk dogs with other people at the event all day long after i am done competing.....
So i would say if your the kinda guy that isn't into ruckus and crowds, not the kind of person that can just jump right in so to speak and feel comfortable then its probably not for you.
I know alot of people always talk about the bad attitude of trialers, how snobbish they are etc, etc. Myself with no shy bones in my body just started walking up to people introducing myself and tried to get the info i needed. everybody was nice, welcoming and friendly.
I have also done 1 hunt test. I went to a VJP test for my Drahthaar puppy. The travel was alot longer, the weather was completely horrible and it was a little more boring the trials for me. But i had told my breeder that i would, and i still had alot of fun.
But once again i am the kind of guy that loves talking dogs with people and i love watching other dogs run.....

Thank you

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:17 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:And at the end of a rough ride (or walk) looking at dogs butts you can cook up some BBQ and invite everyone to you're camp for free food and tequila tasting. When it comes to it, everyone there is there for one reason and it doesn't matter if it's a trial test or show. They are they because they love dogs.

Excellent! Tequila tasting ehhh? Sound's like fun

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:23 pm

If that is not appealing to you that's fine. But to make the judgements you seem to have made about the "boring or useless" nature of field trials may keep you from participating in something that you might find extremely enjoyable if you go into it with an open mind.

No sir. I can see where your coming from now... Thanks for taking the time to deliver an honest reply. I'm still able to hike and run the hound on wild bird's, if not I just might take up trialing, who's to say... I love the whole hound bird thing as well.

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:25 pm

millerms06 wrote:
QuillGordon wrote: Different strokes for different folk's ya know & maybe I'm missing something here but what is it about trialing that makes it appealing to you?
Reading everything I find it puzzling why some people immediately went onto negative defenses when the OP had the above as a closing remark. I would like to highlight "maybe I'm missing something here." Might it have been an opportunity for veteran people to recognize the possibility to create positive remarks for other readers? Personally I just see a person becoming defensive instead of gaining more perspective. I appreciated Rinker and Gooseman07 comments as they initially took it as an opportunity, not an argument.

Spot on amigo...

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:41 pm

Johng918 wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
slistoe wrote:
You have absolutely no idea what is entailed in trialing or testing - as evidenced by the fact that you don't even know that there is a difference.
You have no interest in being educated on what the requirements are or how they are related to the function in the hunting field because you have stated quite emphatically that you already know better how to make a bird dog.
Then you want me to believe that you actually care why I may participate? Well, no you don't, given the response to Kmack's submission on why he participates.

I will tell you one thing about it - your dog will absolutely be a better hunting companion for the effort should you choose to participate.

That is what he was asking, why do you like the trials and testing so much? When this thread is finished he will still wonder since you just can't seem to answer his question. You have the chance to change someone's mind but instead of explaining what is the reason you like it you are spending your time telling him how stupid he is for asking the question? I know you have enjoyed both with your dogs so what is the reason you can express what you found entising and not try to drive another person away from it? Just doesn't make sense.

Ezzy

PS Nice post Wems[/quote

What don't make sense is why you go out of your way to say something negative about everything slistoe post? Maybe you should read the other post he is not the only one that had a strong opinion about the OP but you only see one.

Good question. The answer is he was the only one that posted when I wrote mine. But it applies to everyone that can't give a straight answer without running down the one asking a question.

Ezzy

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:43 pm

When you really want to know how others feel you don't begin by closing out avenues of their answer with your own feelings

Well apparently I do, I really don't see the need in sugar coating an inquiring. Your a big boy get over it. According to some of you I'm suppose to tip toe lightly with a question about what appeals to you about trialing? If you feel your beyond answering or your offended, no problem don't answer...
Regardless, the question still stands

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:14 pm

Quill

I hunt birds AND field trial. I spend more time hunting than trialing and mainly trial when my hunting season is over. For me, at least, hunting is more than trialing and I believe it is the same with my dogs. Please do not compare hunting and trialing - they are not the same and were never intended to be. That said, there are several good reasons to get involved with trialing...

1.) you will learn more about dogs in a few seasons trialing than in 10 years of hunting.

2.) you will get to see a lot of good dogs and you can use this information in several ways - to see how your dogs measure up, to identify dogs that are likely candidates for breeding or that you would like to get a pup from when they are bred.

3.) you will meet a lot of nice people who will share their knowledge and thus, improve your training skills

4.) you will have a lot of fun.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:59 pm

My assumption is that anyone who needs to ask what the appeal of trialing is, was probly the kid who sat in the outfield and picked clovers while his team played and then proudly displayed the participation trophy at the end of the season

Trialing is like any other team sport. You and your partner get the opportunity to prove yourselves the best on a given day against competition. Sometimes you drive home with just your reflections of the day...... sometimes you go home with a ribbon . If you don't understand how that might draw folks then no one can explain it to you.

Jim

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:30 pm

My answer would be a lot like Wems. Most people enjoy competions, hence all of the sports we have in this country. I too love the quiet time in the fields and do that as much as possible as it always comes first. But trials and shows are a great way to spend time with your dog when there is nothing else to do with them. I don't think it is an one or the other thing that can be answered as though they were. Both are good but the games we play are just an added enjoyment that fulfills peoples desire to compete while spending time with freinds and their dogs.

Two different activities at two different times with dogs we love and friends we like.

Ezzy

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:45 pm

Trials are to identify the best breeding stock.

Even an avid hunter is unlikely to see more than 10 - 12 dogs a year to measure against.

I will often see 40+ in a single trial, some years I have seen over 600 dogs to compare to mine. It raises my expectations.

I enjoy the dog work more than killing, trials allow me more opportunity to enjoy.

Neil

BTW pointing dogs are in the Sporting Group, they are not hounds.

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:26 pm

Trials are anything but boring. It's not hunting, isn't supposed to be but as with most things, it is what you make of it. As a newcomer to the sport I learn a lot from watching and asking questions and I feel that my dog and I have benefited a lot from the experience. Hiking the hills looking for birds is still where my heart is but field trialing is a lot of fun, you meet some really nice folks who love dogs and are willing to share their knowledge, you get to see great dogs doing what they do best, and there's something about competing that makes you want to work harder than you would otherwise.

millerms06 · Post by **millerms06** » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:42 pm

Neil wrote:Trials are to identify the best breeding stock.

Even an avid hunter is unlikely to see more than 10 - 12 dogs a year to measure against.

I will often see 40+ in a single trial, some years I have seen over 600 dogs to compare to mine. It raises my expectations.

I enjoy the dog work more than killing, trials allow me more opportunity to enjoy.

Neil

BTW pointing dogs are in the Sporting Group, they are not hounds.

Depending on where you hunt, you will see that number of dogs, or see more. I see enough good and bad dogs when I hunt that exceed well beyond 10-12 for the season. I am sure there are other avid hunters who can make a similar statement. Its interesting you mentioned the last comment though. Just for kicks, I thought it would have been an interesting "father-son" talk to find out if any similarities with pointing dog field trials and beagle field trials can be made. Being that I am obviously one who appreciates many perspectives to gain positive understanding, I thought what the heck and gave him a call.

For some who do not know, there are two formats ran in AKC for beagling: small pack and large pack option. In large pack, most trialers will develop a dog that hunts on its own. A dog that is fairly non compliant, or doesn't go looking for their owners after running a few hours, already has good traits to be a good dog to run large pack. For training purposes, dogs are allowed to hunt for a considerable amount of time: sometimes more than ten hours. Calling dogs to load back in the four wheeler can sometimes mean going back to the land several times just hoping to see the dog at the front gate because it is pitch dark out.

Like with any special prospect, once in a while a great hunting dog can compete successfully in large pack. But more often than not, more dogs are ruined when they are campaigned as a large pack option dog simply because they do not fit in.

Small pack is more geared to the hunter, or the dog that handles within a more biddable mentality. If the beagle is good in a hunting situation, chances are your dog will have what it takes to run small pack. The idea of small pack option is only a few decades old too, and its developments were to relatively appease the hunter crowd. Sounds familiar within the pointing dog world doesn't it?

*Nothing wrong with ANY OF IT though: you just have to find something that fits you and what you want from your dog.*

Now anyone can correct me if I am wrong, but based on knowledge wouldn't you say a common AKC Horseback field trial dog would be trained with somewhat similar characteristics as a large pack option beagle? I am specifically thinking about the idea of range and the willingness within the dog to hunt for themselves rather than occasionally check in with the handler? Yes pointing dogs have a far bit of complexity when it comes to finishing (steady to wing, shot, and fall), but I am merely bringing up the points that would be different to the hunter who witnesses their first trial and thus tries to understand the main expectations of the dogs.

A small pack beagle would be similar to the running parameters of a pointing dog walking format field trial, perhaps even a cover dog field trial? Again anyone can correct me if I am wrong here with making such similarities.

*Again nothing wrong with ANY format: you just have to find something that fits you and what you want from your dog.*

Wenaha and Gertie have some real good points about field trials. I will say that it is all true. But depending on which field trial, you might have some people laugh at you for not putting a tracking collar on your dog, let alone someone trying to put one on your dog when you said no thanks. If this does happen to you, take their joke as an opportunity. Show them how well you and your puppy can run the field, and thus turn the joke back onto them: like what my dog and I did at our first trial.

S&J gsp · Post by **S&J gsp** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:40 am

I run NSTRA trails and you are right if you go just to watch it is like watching paint dry but once you start running it is a lot of fun. More people open up and start talking and it can be very additve. I chose NSTRA because it seemed more like hunting with a time limit 30 min brace two dogs two handlers two judges 5 birds. Scored on point, back, ret , ground coverage and obedience

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:45 am

For me:
I love hunting, but it is only from oct. to Dec. 31. Other than duck.
Test and trials help to identify those animals that are the best of the venue which has all the aspects of a true hunting dog, and what ones may work for breeding.
Test and trials help are fun.

Do you like to compete, either to a standard or truely to top levels. Doing your best your dog at its best?
Have you ever played baseball as a kid, football, hockey etc.? Once you became and adult, maybe picked up softball or pickup games of basket ball.

Do you like to see other dogs work?
Good times, Good dogs, decent people of like mind.

It is all of the above. Most folks that trial mostly hunt. But the time is limited.
Once you start then you no longer can or opportunity is limited by physical situations, or job situation, or finacial situations, you get to missing it.

One more thing, although I truly believe from my perspective hunting is the thing I want the most, the same traits I want in a hunting dog are similar to what I want in a trial or test dog. That is up to a point. I am not looking for an AA dog but want that fire and desire in my dog, there are some that hunt in areas that an AA type dog is good for them and many of those dogs can adapt to hunt many different types of birds and lands.

QuillGordon · Post by **QuillGordon** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:02 am

Wenaha wrote:Quill

I hunt birds AND field trial. I spend more time hunting than trialing and mainly trial when my hunting season is over. For me, at least, hunting is more than trialing and I believe it is the same with my dogs. Please do not compare hunting and trialing - they are not the same and were never intended to be. That said, there are several good reasons to get involved with trialing...

1.) you will learn more about dogs in a few seasons trialing than in 10 years of hunting.

2.) you will get to see a lot of good dogs and you can use this information in several ways - to see how your dogs measure up, to identify dogs that are likely candidates for breeding or that you would like to get a pup from when they are bred.

3.) you will meet a lot of nice people who will share their knowledge and thus, improve your training skills

4.) you will have a lot of fun.

Nice reply. thank you. However, I'm not comparing trials to hunting. I'm comparing the time & energy focused on trialing vs if you took that same time & energy it takes for trialing & put into getting the hound on wild bird's. Which would benefit the hound the most? That's why I ask what appeals to you about trialing? I personally feel wild bird exposure benefit's the hound more but there's been some great insight from most here on trialing. Thank you. I'll try and make an effort to attend more trials, if for nothing more than the photo opportunities that may exist there and possibly gain more insight into the whole field trial game..

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:19 am

millerms06 wrote: Depending on where you hunt, you will see that number of dogs, or see more. I see enough good and bad dogs when I hunt that exceed well beyond 10-12 for the season. I am sure there are other avid hunters who can make a similar statement.

Where in WI do you hunt with well more than 10-12 dogs a season? Seeing a dog jump out of a vehicle and take off with the hunter doesn't count. To make that comparison you'd have to hunt with the dogs for at least as long as a brace in a trial. I am an avid hunter and run into a lot of hunters while out, but rarely to I actually get to watch their dogs hunt long enough to be able to evaluate its abilities. Unless the hunter is a guide that spend time with a lot their clients dogs most hunters are not going to see nearly as many dogs as someone who walks braces in a trial. Heck the OP mentions solitude as one of the reason he doesn't get trialing/testing. You're not going to be able to evaluate a lot of dogs when solitude is a important factor to when working with your dog.

millerms06 · Post by **millerms06** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:40 am

Grange wrote:
millerms06 wrote: Depending on where you hunt, you will see that number of dogs, or see more. I see enough good and bad dogs when I hunt that exceed well beyond 10-12 for the season. I am sure there are other avid hunters who can make a similar statement.
Where in WI do you hunt with well more than 10-12 dogs a season? Seeing a dog jump out of a vehicle and take off with the hunter doesn't count. To make that comparison you'd have to hunt with the dogs for at least as long as a brace in a trial. I am an avid hunter and run into a lot of hunters while out, but rarely to I actually get to watch their dogs hunt long enough to be able to evaluate its abilities. Unless the hunter is a guide that spend time with a lot their clients dogs most hunters are not going to see nearly as many dogs as someone who walks braces in a trial. Heck the OP mentions solitude as one of the reason he doesn't get trialing/testing. You're not going to be able to evaluate a lot of dogs when solitude is a important factor to when working with your dog.

Do you hunt the southern portion of the state like I do? I know it gets harder for someone further up north to see many hunters, unless your a duck hunter on opening day, because I hunt up there too for grouse and wild pheasant holes. Honestly, it doesn't take fifteen minutes, or an hour, to show a personal interest with a dog in the field. Sometimes I can say to myself "look at that uncontrollable dog" while the hunter is yelling and cussing because the dog isn't anywhere near him busting birds. Most of the time I will not put fault on the dog, as the first inclination is always the handler. Other times I will stop myself and my dogs just to observe a dog on point sixty yards or so away from their handler: the handler gets up to the dog, flushes the bird, and the rest is in the gamebag. That can happen less than three minutes. I already know that is finely tuned enough operation to be interested at least with speaking to the gentleman if he cares to talk.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:06 am

millerms06 wrote:
Grange wrote:
millerms06 wrote: Depending on where you hunt, you will see that number of dogs, or see more. I see enough good and bad dogs when I hunt that exceed well beyond 10-12 for the season. I am sure there are other avid hunters who can make a similar statement.
Where in WI do you hunt with well more than 10-12 dogs a season? Seeing a dog jump out of a vehicle and take off with the hunter doesn't count. To make that comparison you'd have to hunt with the dogs for at least as long as a brace in a trial. I am an avid hunter and run into a lot of hunters while out, but rarely to I actually get to watch their dogs hunt long enough to be able to evaluate its abilities. Unless the hunter is a guide that spend time with a lot their clients dogs most hunters are not going to see nearly as many dogs as someone who walks braces in a trial. Heck the OP mentions solitude as one of the reason he doesn't get trialing/testing. You're not going to be able to evaluate a lot of dogs when solitude is a important factor to when working with your dog.

Do you hunt the southern portion of the state like I do? I know it gets harder for someone further up north to see many hunters, unless your a duck hunter on opening day, because I hunt up there too for grouse and wild pheasant holes. Honestly, it doesn't take fifteen minutes, or an hour, to show a personal interest with a dog in the field. Sometimes I can say to myself "look at that uncontrollable dog" while the hunter is yelling and cussing because the dog isn't anywhere near him busting birds. Most of the time I will not put fault on the dog, as the first inclination is always the handler. Other times I will stop myself and my dogs just to observe a dog on point sixty yards or so away from their handler: the handler gets up to the dog, flushes the bird, and the rest is in the gamebag. That can happen less than three minutes. I already know that is finely tuned enough operation to be interested at least with speaking to the gentleman if he cares to talk.

You really are missing the point. Observing a dog in the same field where you are hunting has absolutely no relation to watching a dog throughout its performance in a trial brace.

millerms06 · Post by **millerms06** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:29 am

Then I ask you who are you to say I can't see attributes I like within a short period of time that develops inquiry anymore than you watching a full length brace? I am not going to take a firm plant in the ground that one trumps the other, because someone can make their own opinions based on either scenario. Isn't that what we are talking about here?

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:45 am

QuillGordon wrote:Nice reply. thank you. However, I'm not comparing trials to hunting. I'm comparing the time & energy focused on trialing vs if you took that same time & energy it takes for trialing & put into getting the hound on wild bird's. Which would benefit the hound the most? That's why I ask what appeals to you about trialing? I personally feel wild bird exposure benefit's the hound more but there's been some great insight from most here on trialing. Thank you. I'll try and make an effort to attend more trials, if for nothing more than the photo opportunities that may exist there and possibly gain more insight into the whole field trial game..

What do you mean by time and energy focused on trialing? For me and most of the trialers I know the time and energy means working dogs on birds and for me the vast majority of birds are wild. About the only thing I use pen raised birds for are for polishing up manners. Professional trialers will travel accross the country to get dogs on wild birds. From SD and pheasant and sharpies to Arizona and quail to WI for grouse and woodcock a lot of trial dogs are worked on wild birds year round.

If you're talking about spending time trialing instead of hunting during the hunting season, well then again that doesn't mean much for some of us trialers. We are trialing on wild birds so even while in the actual trial we're working wild birds. After I or other trialers run we've been known to put the blank pistol away and grab the shotgun if we don't feel like walking additional braces. At one trial I knew I was going to busy judging most of the day so I took my dog out earlier in the morning and worked three grouse and the following day we worked two woodcock during our brace and on my way home I hit an old hunting spot with my shotgun the next county over.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:51 am

A trial is not a place to train your dog, the experience helps a lot in future trials, but the trial itself is not about making your dog better. It is the game. Getting a dog on wild birds is more of a benefit, but if you are going to be competitive in the venue I am involved with you had better gotten your dog on a bunch of wild birds in practice.

QuillGordon wrote:
Wenaha wrote:Quill

I hunt birds AND field trial. I spend more time hunting than trialing and mainly trial when my hunting season is over. For me, at least, hunting is more than trialing and I believe it is the same with my dogs. Please do not compare hunting and trialing - they are not the same and were never intended to be. That said, there are several good reasons to get involved with trialing...

1.) you will learn more about dogs in a few seasons trialing than in 10 years of hunting.

2.) you will get to see a lot of good dogs and you can use this information in several ways - to see how your dogs measure up, to identify dogs that are likely candidates for breeding or that you would like to get a pup from when they are bred.

3.) you will meet a lot of nice people who will share their knowledge and thus, improve your training skills

4.) you will have a lot of fun.
Nice reply. thank you. However, I'm not comparing trials to hunting. I'm comparing the time & energy focused on trialing vs if you took that same time & energy it takes for trialing & put into getting the hound on wild bird's. Which would benefit the hound the most? That's why I ask what appeals to you about trialing? I personally feel wild bird exposure benefit's the hound more but there's been some great insight from most here on trialing. Thank you. I'll try and make an effort to attend more trials, if for nothing more than the photo opportunities that may exist there and possibly gain more insight into the whole field trial game..