Shooting Dog vs All Age

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:00 pm

As I read the results from the NGSPA Quail Ch, I noticed the same dog won Amateur Shooting Dog, won the Open All Age. The dog is obviously something special and not taking anything away from it. Since I was not there, I can only speculate how this can happen, as they are obviously different standards. The three plausible scenarios would be:

1. The handler was able to handle show the dog in two totally different lights, meeting the requirements of both standards and pleasing both sets of judges
2. There were no true AA races and the AA judges put up the biggest running SD in the AA stake
3. The shooting dog judges put up an AA race in what should have been judged as a shooting dog stake.

Anyone with 1st hand experience comment on how this typically happens in CH trials, especially the same trial? On the local AKC level, I believe the term AA to be a long stretch.

Also, why do folks enter their dogs in both Gun Dog / Shooting Dog stakes and AA? THey dont know what they have?

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:06 pm

IMO this is a result of poor judging and judges who don't the difference in a shooting dog and an all age dog. They are NOT the same thing.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:14 pm

Maybe the dog is just that good.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:17 pm

I doubt it. The dog is either a shooting dog or an all age dog. Good judges know the difference.

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:19 pm

Casey- what do you mean by 'good'? Like the dog understood when the handler told him what stake they were running?

Carolina Gundogs · Post by **Carolina Gundogs** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:25 pm

I have heard of dogs that were called "tweeners" as they fell into a niche area that could handle either way. I have not witnessed this but remember the conversation with someone who owned such a dog and he placed in both scenarios. However, this dog was with one trainer when he ran GD/SD and another trainer when he ran AA.

Middlecreek · Post by **Middlecreek** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:30 pm

The dog is just that good, actually, really good! In all age stakes he let's him roll and that dog can really get up and go! For shooting dog stakes he keeps him from making all age moves by "handling" him. A dog like that is very special and the relationship between Joker and Mike is something most people will never experience or understand.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:31 pm

Didn't this dog double dip on the AKC NGDC two or three years ago under Jim West?

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:36 pm

Won the retrieving and non-retrieving. Not two stakes that carry different standards in the same weekend. The question is winning under two standards on the same grounds at the same trial.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:41 pm

This is almost uniquely an AKC thing. If a dog wins the shooting dog in an American field trial he probably won't be in the mix in the all age nor should he be.

Middlecreek · Post by **Middlecreek** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:43 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Didn't this dog double dip on the AKC NGDC two or three years ago under Jim West?

In 2010 he swept the AKC Nationals... early development was done by Mike and Lenny, then West had him for a season or so when he won the nationals. Blue Dawn had him for another year or so. Mike has had him home running him ever since and has had an impressive career already, even though he is just coming in to his prime. He is well in to double digits with hour wins

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:43 pm

Forgive my ignorance, was this a wild or planted bird trial?

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:52 pm

Saddle wrote:This is almost uniquely an AKC thing. If a dog wins the shooting dog in an American field trial he probably won't be in the mix in the all age nor should he be.

Cassique's Boss- National Open Shooting Dog Ch, Florida AA (biggest money trial of the year)

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:57 pm

It sounds to me like it's an all age running dog that has learned to handle when needed. Not a bad thing at all but many other factors play into the scenario.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:59 pm

Caladens Rail Hawk has done both. Eisenhart has a few that have done both.

I have no opinion on what a true shooting dog or AA dog is thou.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:05 pm

They can and do switch over from shooting dog to all age but rarely run both.

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:14 pm

Saddle wrote:This is almost uniquely an AKC thing. If a dog wins the shooting dog in an American field trial he probably won't be in the mix in the all age nor should he be.

Not that I don't agree with you but it happens out here fairly regularly
http://aftca-region-11.blogspot.com/

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:22 pm

A friend emailed this to me. Thought it was a good read.

Below is Fred Rayl's post on diffference between a SD Dog and an All Age Dog. posted June 05, 2011

For an introduction Freddie Rayl has won 52 championships including the National Championship and over 70 runner ups. He is the son of Hall Of Famer, Bill Rayl of Rayl Kennels, Sylvester, GA. The Rayl Kennel dogs include Evolution, Fiddler, Fiddler's Pride, Builder's Addition, Heritage Premonition, Little Diamond and a host of other great champions that have made a huge impact of bird dogs we have today. The following is posted with permission from the author.

Would someone out there explain to me what the difference in a Shooting Dog and All Age Dog is today.

First thing. I am not here to offend anyone. I am only here to give you my opinion. Second thing. I have won All Age trials with all kinds of performances. Third thing I am basing my opinion on several years of hunting and training field trial dogs. I would like to add. I learned from the best. My Dad. I am only telling you what I like. If you agree. That is good. If you are not sure and it helps you to decide. That is good. If you do not agree. That is good also. If you did not have one before. I hope when you are finished reading this you will have an opinion of you own. I feel everyone that judges or run dogs should have one and know the two are different. If you do not. I must question your ability to judge or run a dog in a trial. How do you decide what you should place or were you should run in a trial. The class, stile, stamina, and brains should be the same in all great dogs. The one that has that desire to hang on the edge of the earth hunting for game. When he is finished surveying the land. He will stop listen or look for his master than go on forward to do more surveying. It is a pretty sight to see a big running dog stop a half mile or further away to see where you are than goes on to the front hunting. He is a true all age. I do not mean the ones that come back to your horse for more direction. That is a shooting dog to me. I do not like to see that in a all age but I demand it in a shooting dog if he is a big running dog. You may miss that all age when he stops out there but he will not miss you. That is when you will lose him unless you are very lucky. It is very important that you know he is hunting all the time. Not just running. I will explain tomorrow night.

I hope everyone is still with me. The ones that run to get away from you most of the time are run aways or self hunters. They are not really all age dogs. They may make good pets or maybe you can collar them enough to hunt them. The ones that run in a straight line for miles or make a huge cast than come back to their handler in a short period of time or not really all age dogs to me. The dog with that natural ability to look for you on the horizon than carry on hunting will adapt to all kinds of terrain. Dogs in all kinds of compitition should look good on game. I believe that the race should be the most important factor in judging a dog. I will let a dog have a subpar find if they have a suburb ground race over a dog with a suburb find and a subpar ground race. I believe that race should be the most important in all kind of trials. That does not mean they should not find game. It also depends on what you have in the trial to compare with. I do not like to see a handler push a dog. When a handler has to stay on his whistle or ride his horse after him a lot for him to run or stay out there. The dog is not running natural no matter what kind of trial he is running in. In a all age trial I think a handler and scout needs to ride some to keep the dog under control. The dog that is not affraid to run to the limit so he can find game. He is just waiting for his handler to let him go. He is the all age. The dog that is waiting for direction and needs to be sent is a shooting dog. Judges should know the difference. I believe that a true all age dog could never win a shooting dog trial. Shooting dogs win in all age trials and do often. A lot of judges look for the easy way out in all age trials. The true all age either goes off course or gets lost plus a lot judges do not want to put forth the effort to watch a true running all age dog. A shooting dog should run as big as the country but must come back after each cast to his handler for more direction. He should be a pleasure to run with very little effort. If the handler and scout has to ride a lot to keep him in control. He is no shooting dog to me. If he is one that hangs out there he should still come back from time to time so his handler can let him know he is doing it right. It should be obvious that he is responding to his handler. Judges should know this also. I hope that I have got my point across. I hope you enjoyed it. The most important thing. I hope it helped someone. I hope everyone that reads it will form an opinion on the difference. Someone ask me the difference between Little Diamond and Builder's Addition. I hope you have your answer now. They were perfect examples. I would like to thank you all for your comments and your time. If you have any questions feel free to ask. I will do my best to answer. Sorry about the grammar and spelling. May God bless you all. Thanks Fred

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:27 pm

cmc274 wrote:
Saddle wrote:This is almost uniquely an AKC thing. If a dog wins the shooting dog in an American field trial he probably won't be in the mix in the all age nor should he be.
Cassique's Boss- National Open Shooting Dog Ch, Florida AA (biggest money trial of the year)

What year did he win the FLA AA?

Tejas · Post by **Tejas** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:31 pm

Saddle wrote:This is almost uniquely an AKC thing. If a dog wins the shooting dog in an American field trial he probably won't be in the mix in the all age nor should he be.

This was a NGSPA (American Field) trial that was dual sanctioned as an AKC trial. The judges in the amateur both liked bigger running dogs...and that's okay. I ran in the amateur the brace before Joker, but didn't see him run. The all-age had some for real all-age dogs entered so if Joker beat them one might deduce he is truly an all-age champion.

hustonmc · Post by **hustonmc** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:32 pm

tn red wrote:
cmc274 wrote:
Saddle wrote:This is almost uniquely an AKC thing. If a dog wins the shooting dog in an American field trial he probably won't be in the mix in the all age nor should he be.
Cassique's Boss- National Open Shooting Dog Ch, Florida AA (biggest money trial of the year)
What year did he win the FLA AA?

Last year. Right after Moore sold him.

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:36 pm

tn red wrote:
cmc274 wrote:
Saddle wrote:This is almost uniquely an AKC thing. If a dog wins the shooting dog in an American field trial he probably won't be in the mix in the all age nor should he be.
Cassique's Boss- National Open Shooting Dog Ch, Florida AA (biggest money trial of the year)
What year did he win the FLA AA?

2012

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:38 pm

Cassique's Boss- National Open Shooting Dog Ch, Florida AA (biggest money trial of the year)[/quote]

What year did he win the FLA AA?[/quote]

Last year. Right after Moore sold him.[/quote]

That makes more sense Hurdle had him then?

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:39 pm

Yep, who handled him to his SD wins? I believe Rick Stallings owns him.

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:43 pm

Lot of times its just who is blowing the whistle

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:54 pm

It sounds to me like it's an all age running dog that has learned to handle when needed.

Uhh, pretty sure he handles when he competes in AA also - they don't win if they don't.

Cripes folks, judges just judge what they see - dogs don't come to the line with labels on 'em. Good on Mike and Joker for layin' it on 'em!

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:01 pm

Doug, so if you ran a dog in an amateur shooting dog stake and it was beat by an AA performance, you wouldnt have an issue?

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:31 pm

[quote="cmc274"]Doug, so if you ran a dog in an amateur shooting dog stake and it was beat by an AA performance, you wouldnt have an issue?[/quote

Probably...in fact I thought that very thing happened at Nat'l Am. Chukar SD Ch. this fall...but I always think my dog won...so far my opinion never matters!!

We have no idea what the story was at this trial...or any trial we don't go participate in or watch first hand...so congrats again!! Judgin' is a tough gig, kudos for callin' it like they saw it.

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:45 pm

Saddle wrote:They can and do switch over from shooting dog to all age but rarely run both.

I agree . I did see CH Belfield Silver ( Don Frigo) place/win at both many a time.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:49 am

I wasn't there so I don't know for sure. I do know Joker is a special dog. I would consider him a tweener. In a SD stake I would guess that Mike had to handle him a little more. In the AA he probably let him roll and let the scout do the handling so to say. Maybe I'm wrong, won't be the first time, but that's my take on it. There are quite a few good GSP's out there that can run both. Those are smart dogs with good handlers and scouts.

Doug

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:06 am

DGFavor wrote:
We have no idea what the story was at this trial...or any trial we don't go participate in or watch first hand...so congrats again!! Judgin' is a tough gig, kudos for callin' it like they saw it.

Way back, when I first started judging, an old timer gave me a bit of wisdom. "Four people are going to agree with the placements, only one agrees with their order."

sckwest1 · Post by **sckwest1** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:37 am

last year browntown johnny reb won a nbha nc walking trial then the following week he won over some of the top shooting dogs in the nation to win the missouri ch and luke just won a big aa ch. with him last week. There have been a few others that have acheived championships in all venues as well.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:30 am

Look guys -

There are a lot of shooting dogs with a lot of go. Have been for many years. There are a lot of All age dogs with a lot of handle. I would say the successful ones are the ones that handle.

There is probably a lot less difference between the two than there used to be.

A whole bunch of this comes down to who is blowing the whistle for one. If it is an all age handler...it is an all age dog. If it is a shooting dog handler, then it is a shooting dog. Anyone who doesn't believe this has not seen dogs like Calico's Rebellious Sue run. She was an all age dog in a shooting dog skin. Just look at her breeding. Both handlers and their dogs get "labelled". Luke Eisenhart was running some HUGE running derbies long before he went to all age. Fact is there are walking dogs that can run with shooting dogs AND all age dogs... and the other way 'round. The dog with brains and experience that wants to stay with its handler will dial it up or down...as necessary.

I cannot speak to the prairie trials, but I will say this about a large number of the Eastern shooting dog trials...The braces are run at a pace that is nearly twice as fast as the all age stakes I have been to. If the judges allow it, the handlers will just about canter their horses through the course. Those dogs can SCREAM. By comparison, the all age handler's pace, based on my limited experience...is actually rather sedate, just about a flat walk. The dogs are the ones doing the running, not the handler's horses.

Another factor, and it is a HUGE factor...is the grounds on which the trial is prosecuted. If they are shooting dog grounds that twist and turn, then even the biggest running all age dog has to dial it down to stay in contact with their handler or they will become lost to judgement or be forced to come from behind. The ones that handle will in fact dial it down.. So, on a shooting dog course, the best and most successful all age dogs might just look a whole lot like a shooting dog. On all age grounds the opposite can, and I think, does happen. That shooting dog with the big motor will take one look at the open terrain and proceed to tear the place up...because it can.

A final factor is the judges. All age folks judging a a shooting dog stake typically will not want to see an overly ambitious ground application which might border on all age performance an will not reward it with a placement. I have seen this enough times to make that statement.

Mr. Rayl alluded to one of the judging differences when he described the "look back" that an all age dog and then basically stated that he wanted to see a shooting dog come all the way back to the horse. Mr. Rayl is an all age handler. I am not casting aspersions, just illustrating the point that different folks have different expectations which may color their opinions as to what constitutes a winning all age or shooting dog performance. I accept and respect Mr. Rayl's opinion. He certainly has a world of experience from which to draw.

However, in my limited experience, no horseback shooting dog handler that I know of want their dog to come "all the way" back to the horse to check in. A dog that does that...don't win in big time shooting dog competition because they would be considered being "sticky" and perhaps even "underfoot". In fact , no successful walking shooting dog handler that I know, wants their dog to come all the way back in for anything except water and to be put on a lead at the end of the brace.

RayG

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:38 am

Ray, how and when did it become permissible to chase/push a SD around a course?

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:36 am

Wyndancer wrote:Ray, how and when did it become permissible to chase/push a SD around a course?

Dan 0-

It happens all the time. Not saying it is right...but it happens. Seems to be less of a problem than it used to be, at least from what i have witnessed.

If the judges allow the handlers to set the pace by chasing after them...the pace will almost always speed up. If the judges control the pace by maintaining a comfortable flat walk and the handlers get way out in front, there ain't much for the judge to see and you can't judge what you can't see. Then it stops.

If one of the handlers insists on pushing their dog, it could even be considered handler interference with the bracing dog. That does not happen very often, but maybe it should.

RayG

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:51 am

RayGubernat wrote:

If one of the handlers insists on pushing their dog, it could even be considered handler interference with the bracing dog. That does not happen very often, but maybe it should.

RayG

I was at Branched Oak one time, and I was riding the gallery of a OGD stake. One pro basically took off nearly a short lope, pushing (or trying to hag onto) his dog. The other pro, was trying to lay back and let the dog work....but the good ones don't like being behind, and this one was trying to catch the front, to the dismay of the handler. The handler of the second called the dog in and threw the rope on. The judges wee all Hey? What are ya picking up for?"

Pro to the judges. "Well, seeing that you guys won't control the pace, and this pace is affecting my dog in bad way...I'm picking up.

Judges. "Just run your own race...we see what's going on."

Pro. "The dog isn't that smart...is trying to run HIS race."

It was kind tense the rest of the day. Point made though.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:55 am

I was talking to Eric Mauck the last year Sunrise trialed. He told me the secret to Sunrise is that, he's really just a shooting dog. How does that happen? Simple. He runs almost to much for a shooting dog and a bit short of an AA. The gray area dog that did everything it was supposed to and then some in an AA stake. Pretty clear that each dog does not run the same range as every other dog. So each performance needs judged on it's own merit. That way you end up with the best of both worlds and maybe the dog that really does what a bird dog should do.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:06 am

sckwest1 wrote:last year browntown johnny reb won a nbha nc walking trial then the following week he won over some of the top shooting dogs in the nation to win the missouri ch

CH Browntown Johnny Reb

sckwest1 wrote:luke just won a big aa ch. with him last week.

He just won the Cajun Classic which now qualifies him to run in the National CH at Ames. His NBHA National CH was under the whistle of Jerry Raynor and now Luke is running him.

I think 90% of the time if an AF dog is tearing up the walking or HB stakes with AA races, they are sold (for good dollar) or moved to an AA handler (like Johnny Reb). You do see dogs crossover between Walking SD and Horseback SD stakes. There are a LOT more of those dogs out there than the Horseback SDs and AA crossovers.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:04 am

This is not new, Dave Grubb was winning from the prairies over to the grouse woods, to mid-Atlantic shooting dog back to AA in the South and mid-south, all with the same dogs in the 60's.

Mike Hester and Luke Esienhart have been doing it more recently, Luke won Shootin Dog Handler of the Year, followed by A-A Handler of the Year the next, with many of the same dogs.

I have always believed there is a very real difference in a true All Age dog, but many judges see otherwise.

dead mike · Post by **dead mike** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:06 am

PntrRookie wrote:
sckwest1 wrote:last year browntown johnny reb won a nbha nc walking trial then the following week he won over some of the top shooting dogs in the nation to win the missouri ch

CH Browntown Johnny Reb

sckwest1 wrote:luke just won a big aa ch. with him last week.
He just won the Cajun Classic which now qualifies him to run in the National CH at Ames. His NBHA National CH was under the whistle of Jerry Raynor and now Luke is running him.

I think 90% of the time if an AF dog is tearing up the walking or HB stakes with AA races, they are sold (for good dollar) or moved to an AA handler (like Johnny Reb). You do see dogs crossover between Walking SD and Horseback SD stakes. There are a LOT more of those dogs out there than the Horseback SDs and AA crossovers.

I was just going to post this dog. SD winning AA not uncommon.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:13 am

I think you bring a handling AA age dog to a shooting dog course he'll do fine, but take a SD to a prairie AA venue and well.....maybe not so much.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:09 pm

Neil wrote:Mike Hester and Luke Esienhart have been doing it more recently, Luke won Shootin Dog Handler of the Year, followed by A-A Handler of the Year the next, with many of the same dogs.

Travis Gelhaus is another great example...took his HB SD string to the AA stakes and MANY of them are still on it. He also picked up a few more.

hustonmc · Post by **hustonmc** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:40 pm

Neil wrote:This is not new, Dave Grubb was winning from the prairies over to the grouse woods, to mid-Atlantic shooting dog back to AA in the South and mid-south, all with the same dogs in the 60's.

Mike Hester and Luke Esienhart have been doing it more recently, Luke won Shootin Dog Handler of the Year, followed by A-A Handler of the Year the next, with many of the same dogs.

I have always believed there is a very real difference in a true All Age dog, but many judges see otherwise.

And the North West.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:17 pm

I think you see more of this in AKC than AF, is that AKC often holds both A-A and shooting dog/gun dog are held on the same grounds back to back. Whereas in AF both the A-A and shooting dog circuits are so full, the pros must pick one or the other. The excetions are the West and the Southeastern and Masters.

When the major SD and A-A run on the same grounds, both fill them up. The difference is subtle.

Jager · Post by **Jager** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:22 pm

I thought this nailed it...and I am quoting from a pro trainer, as I asked this question early in my field trialing career. It apparently doesn't matter who is handling, but rather, "which whistle I [the handler] am blowing" is the answer given to me. So I think that kind of nails it.

However, on a serious note I was braced with the dog in question at the NGSPA Nat'ls a couple years back, and I will say that he is one of the fastest dogs I have ever seen on the ground, allbeit I have only seen him run that one time, and he wasn't handled by his owner that day.

Redneck · Post by **Redneck** » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:17 pm

Field trials initially ran 2 stakes, AA and derby. SD was introduced to attract new trailers ie hunters. This is where the bias regarding AA dogs being the true trial dogs developed. This bias is why so many of today's AA dogs really aren't true AA, but they're handlers simply won't run SD because they consider it the minor leagues(plus in the open circuits the AA purses are usually bigger). Some of these dogs will run AA in ag country , but fade on the prairies. There is a very popular and successful line of pointers that wins a lot of AA trials but rarely wins on the prairies where the difference in ranges can't be hidden. This is also part of why the line between AA and SD has become so thin over the years. Many of the open SD run as much or more than the open AA dogs. The times when people have a problem with the difference is when they are beat. The shooting dog losers want to cry that the winner ran too much and the AA losers want to bitch that the winner birdied their way in and didn't run an AA race. Good judges use the best performances period. If a dog runs big to the front, handles, hunts using the wind and conditions to his advantage, has bird work that is handled correctly and with acceptable style, he can be in consideration for any broke dog stake. When judges start trying to keyhole dogs into standards is when they start screwing things up. The best dogs with the best performances should win. If everybody wants a ribbon they should get involved with little league. Field trailing should be about rewarding the best dog on that day( or week or whatever). If someone can't win they should do a better job of preparing they're dog rather than looking for reasons to throw out great performances.

Redneck · Post by **Redneck** » Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:48 pm

Saddle wrote:I doubt it. The dog is either a shooting dog or an all age dog. Good judges know the difference.

Good judges use the best performances they see during that stake, rather than trying to keyhole the dogs into what are very unclear standards.

Brian Smith · Post by **Brian Smith** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:15 am

Hank Lewis' Kane is a great example of a dog that can run the AA race and also handle the SD stakes. He and Chris Goegan have handled him to RU and Championship wins over a long stretch of time and proved he is a great example of a dog that can handle both stakes.
I was at a Club event one year and a fellow by the name of Tom Bower was running a dog, Heidi I believe her name was. The guys were all talking about this big running dog that just won the nat'l championshi. Now we were having a walking trial and I was curious how this dog was going to run this little course we had to run on. long story short, she handled like a well trained gun dog. when I asked Tom about how this big running horse back dog could stay so close, he replied that a smart dog nows the difference and handled accordingly. I think if the dog has the right breeding and training and a bond with the handlers they can run both stakes, but they are definetly special !
In addition to being an AKC FC/AFC, He runs AF also.

Kane's major accomplishments include:

2012
2012 Region 4 NGSPA AA runner up
2012 NGSPA All Age National Field Trial Champion

2011
2011 NGSPA Pheasant All Age Champion

2010
2010 Savannah River Amateur Shooting Dog Champion
2010 Region 4 All Age Champion
2010 NGSPA Great Lakes All Age CH
2010 NGSPA Pheasant All Age CH

2009
2009 Savannah River ASD CH
2009 Savannah River All Age RU
2009 NGSPA Region 5 All Age CH
2009 Mingo Classic Amateur All Age CH
2009 NGSPA of Ohio All Age CH
2009 NGSPA Pheasant ASD CH
2009 NGSPA Pheasant All Age CH
2009 NGSPA Amateur Shooting Dog of the year
2009 NGSPA All Age Dog of the year runner up

2008
2008 NGSPA of Ohio OSD CH
2008 NGSPA Pheasant ASD RU

2007
2007 NGSPA of Ohio ASD CH
2007 NGSPA of Ohio OSD CH

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:55 am

Much of this can be explained by the two eqsiest aspects of a dog's performance is the distance of the judge to the dog and if the dog moves after going on point. The first led to handlers riding far to the front pushing the dog atound (e.g. Miller) and the second barrel work to the point the dog gets higher after the flush (e.g. HTA, the Tracys).

I was taught there was more to an A-A dog than simple range, and after the flush the dog's job is done, looking at the stars adds notuing of value. Marking the flight of the birds adds a great deal.

Neil

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:10 am

Saddle wrote:I doubt it. The dog is either a shooting dog or an all age dog. Good judges know the difference.

How would you know, if you werent their to see the performance!!!!!????