Gun Dog Forum

Should puppy and derby points count towards an FC? (IMO) The puppy and derby points should not count towards the FC title. The standard of puppy and derby does not equal what is required of an FC titled dog (it takes the 10 points for the title down to just needing 6 broke dog points). I just kind of want to know other people's ideas about including non-broke points towards a broke dog title? I'm ready to take my beat down now Please be gentle

Yes, not because they matter, because they don't, and a dog that can't finish their FC with all adult points is pretty useless to me, but because I think that puppies can learn very valuable lessons running puppy and derby stakes, as can new, inexperienced handlers.

You do away with points, you do away with the stakes, and I think the stakes are important.

You do away with points, you do away with the stakes, and I think the stakes are important.

I agree with Karen. Puppy and Derby are very important for dogs to get the experiance with horses, other handlers, other dogs, different grounds and to gain confidence. Now a days puppy and derby stakes are just as expensive as the adult stakes and unless there is a reward for winning (Points) no one would pay the fees to enter them.

Yep, let em count, let people run pro derby and puppy dogs, and let them fix what they created later. I'm all for it. But it is what gets most new people started.. I know I got hooked that way.

Luisia02 wrote:

You do away with points, you do away with the stakes, and I think the stakes are important.

I agree with Karen. Puppy and Derby are very important for dogs to get the experiance with horses, other handlers, other dogs, different grounds and to gain confidence. Now a days puppy and derby stakes are just as expensive as the adult stakes and unless there is a reward for winning (Points) no one would pay the fees to enter them.

That sums it up right there

I sure wish I had my puppy and Derby points. I would bs done with one and move onto others. I don't remember seeing it called a broke dog title though, just a championship title.

It's fun to see young prospects and how they develop.

I agree! My stomach is upset until I run my broke dog, can't eat a thing and I get snippy to my wonderful hubby until it's over.

I have a BLAST with my puppies! The puppies have a blast! My 9 yr old step daughter had a blast running her pup.

Do you really think it's a good idea to do away with this????

Ya Kiddin me.....I couldn't wait to get my first two dogs broke and run with the big dogs and try to title them. My mentor, Styles Bridges told me that broke dogs were not fun once they were broke. I used to shrug it off and just kept working them. 3 years later I had my litter and my dogs were broke and titled and started with my 3 puppies and what he told me finally sunk in and I realized how much fun training puppies was. Then their first stake, their first time in front of a horse, and their first trial......I forgot how much work it was.

I ran the broke dogs and it was easy. When I ran them for the first time...Holy Cow! Cut em loose and hang on for the ride. I ran them back to back to back. I was absolutely drained. And, every stake after that was no different. Now that I have to break em' I am almost disappointed that I'm done Puppy and Derby. Started breaking them before they were one and ws lucky enough to not have any bad Derby experiences (chasing, tagging, busting, etc) but did not overdo it either.

I won't run them in broke stakes until they are solid broke. I won't take the chance of ruining a stake for someone else or screwing up my own dog. 2 out of the 3 ran Broke at the Pheasant Ch in Maryland in Nov and I couldn't have been happier.

The Puppy and Derby stakes give those of us who have to travel (minimum of 6 hours for me) and have no one to train off of horseback with an opportunity to get our pups started. How did I get hooked and hooked deep....1st trial, 2 dogs, borrowed horses, 8 puppy stakes and 5 ribbons. These are the stakes that get people hooked and if they counted for nothing, the newbies will disappear and there will be no one to carry on and pick up the pieces!

Derby is a set up to screw your dog up with long term problems imo.

Luisia02 wrote:
I agree with Karen. Puppy and Derby are very important for dogs to get the experience with horses, other handlers, other dogs, different grounds and to gain confidence.

I love it when people show up to field trials to "train" their dog. Do your exposure at home, not at a trial.

bb560m wrote:Derby is a set up to screw your dog up with long term problems imo.

I agree.

Saddle wrote:

Luisia02 wrote:
I agree with Karen. Puppy and Derby are very important for dogs to get the experience with horses, other handlers, other dogs, different grounds and to gain confidence.

I love it when people show up to field trials to "train" their dog. Do your exposure at home, not at a trial.

I don't know about you, but it's pretty hard to recreate a trial situation for most folks. I see absolutely nothing wrong running in a puppy/derby stake to gain experience for the dog or handler.

Doug

I see the benefit of juvenile stakes...the travel, living on a chain, the event atmosphere. I get that. But when you acquire 40% of your Ch. points from juvenile stakes, that's a problem.

Maybe keep the points for juvenile stakes and make the total number required 14 if you use juvenile points and remain at 10 if you don't?

Wyndancer wrote:I see the benefit of juvenile stakes...the travel, living on a chain, the event atmosphere. I get that. But when you acquire 40% of your Ch. points from juvenile stakes, that's a problem.

Maybe keep the points for juvenile stakes and make the total number required 14 if you use juvenile points and remain at 10 if you don't?

Cause that is different than eliminating the points?

You have to set the hook some how..... I would say that a dog that can get the points as a juvenile then collect the remaining points as a broke dog would more than likely have finished an FC anyhow.

Jim

slistoe wrote:

Wyndancer wrote:I see the benefit of juvenile stakes...the travel, living on a chain, the event atmosphere. I get that. But when you acquire 40% of your Ch. points from juvenile stakes, that's a problem.

Maybe keep the points for juvenile stakes and make the total number required 14 if you use juvenile points and remain at 10 if you don't?

Cause that is different than eliminating the points?

I guess technically you're correct, but it doesn't remove the incentive of the new person.

I'm not going to work for or against a change, just trying to move a discussion. What is interesting is in AF, what do you get for winning a puppy stake, or a derby stake? But one could argue that could be the reason that some see the AKC model not dwindling as fast as the AF model.

Doug you're probably right. I guess I take it for granted that because I can simulate it that everyone can.

I do think you can prepare a pup or derby for a trial by doing the majority of the exposure stuff at home.

doco wrote:The Puppy and Derby stakes give those of us who have to travel (minimum of 6 hours for me) and have no one to train off of horseback with an opportunity to get our pups started. How did I get hooked and hooked deep....1st trial, 2 dogs, borrowed horses, 8 puppy stakes and 5 ribbons.

Saddle wrote:I guess I take it for granted that because I can simulate it that everyone can.

I'll assume that you meant that you can simulate it at home. That was my point above.

Saddle wrote:I do think you can prepare a pup or derby for a trial by doing the majority of the exposure stuff at home.

That's exactly how I train. Almost every situation I can think of, I train for. As a Puppy/Derby handler from the start, it was me being trained. I was the one the judges and the gallery were helping. I made more mistakes than the dogs did my first two years. Those screw ups by me handling have only improved how I train my pups now. And guess what, as I just finished with my 2nd set of pups/derby, I still screwed up. I already know that I'm gonna miss it. Broke stakes with broke dogs are not nearly as fun as the young stakes IMO. No, I didn't run every weekend, but I did run a fair amount because my 3 pups were always competing against each other.

As for the points, if the FC were soooo easy, there would be an awful lot of FC's competing in our stakes on the northeast which is usually 120 - 130 dogs on a weekend, and there ain't.

Wyndancer wrote:

slistoe wrote:

Wyndancer wrote:I see the benefit of juvenile stakes...the travel, living on a chain, the event atmosphere. I get that. But when you acquire 40% of your Ch. points from juvenile stakes, that's a problem.

Maybe keep the points for juvenile stakes and make the total number required 14 if you use juvenile points and remain at 10 if you don't?

Cause that is different than eliminating the points?

I guess technically you're correct, but it doesn't remove the incentive of the new person.

I'm not going to work for or against a change, just trying to move a discussion. What is interesting is in AF, what do you get for winning a puppy stake, or a derby stake? But one could argue that could be the reason that some see the AKC model not dwindling as fast as the AF model.

Since they are not classified, a Derby Win Certificate allows you to enter any Championship Stake in AF. If you don't win a Derby then you need to have a win in Shooting Dog to enter Shooting Dog Championships and a win in All Age to enter All Age Championships. So, in AF a Derby win is arguably more valuable than the 2 points you get in AKC.

slistoe,

I think that nearly all that enter an AKC FT, no matter the level, has their eyes on the FC or AFC. How many that run AF have thoughts about entering a Ch? Agree that a Derby win cert has value. I'd certainly like to have Derby win on my gyp, because getting a 1-3 in a Shooting dog is no easy feat.

Wyndancer wrote:slistoe,

I think that nearly all that enter an AKC FT, no matter the level, has their eyes on the FC or AFC. How many that run AF have thoughts about entering a Ch? Agree that a Derby win cert has value. I'd certainly like to have Derby win on my gyp, because getting a 1-3 in a Shooting dog is no easy feat.

I guess if you are running Gordons your view has some merit. I run Brittanys and still have some misguided notion that someday I will put one on the line at a Championship Trial with an honest perception that we will be competitive.

I have Brittanys and have one out with an AF pro. She has a placement in a half hour AF stake and has run in a couple AF championships. The pro was kind enough to run her twice last season at Brittany events...a 2nd in an OLGD stake and a 4th at the ABC National Gun Dog Championship out in Ionia, MI. 2 times on the ground, 2 placements....can't argue with success

She doesn't always get a good look from the judges at AF trials because she's the only Brittany entered....nearly all the time.

Karen wrote:
She doesn't always get a good look from the judges at AF trials because she's the only Brittany entered....nearly all the time.

I hope that not true, or at least not very often, Jeanette must not think so or she wouldn't waste your money and her time. I have been placing Britts in long tail AF trials since the 70's, only twice did I have a problem with the judges.

Good luck with your nice little dog,

To the OP, I have no problem with juvenile points, I have finished them with and without them, I did have one go to his grave with 9 points and a slug of 2nd & 3rds, Puppy points would have been nice.

Neil

slistoe wrote:

Wyndancer wrote:slistoe,

I think that nearly all that enter an AKC FT, no matter the level, has their eyes on the FC or AFC. How many that run AF have thoughts about entering a Ch? Agree that a Derby win cert has value. I'd certainly like to have Derby win on my gyp, because getting a 1-3 in a Shooting dog is no easy feat.

I guess if you are running Gordons your view has some merit. I run Brittanys and still have some misguided notion that someday I will put one on the line at a Championship Trial with an honest perception that we will be competitive.

FYI...I ran a Gordon in the Region 19 ASD Ch....and will continue do to so. And FWIW, I think my pooch is competitive in it.

Wyndancer wrote:

slistoe wrote:

Wyndancer wrote:slistoe,

I think that nearly all that enter an AKC FT, no matter the level, has their eyes on the FC or AFC. How many that run AF have thoughts about entering a Ch? Agree that a Derby win cert has value. I'd certainly like to have Derby win on my gyp, because getting a 1-3 in a Shooting dog is no easy feat.

I guess if you are running Gordons your view has some merit. I run Brittanys and still have some misguided notion that someday I will put one on the line at a Championship Trial with an honest perception that we will be competitive.

FYI...I ran a Gordon in the Region 19 ASD Ch....and will continue do to so. And FWIW, I think my pooch is competitive in it.

My bad. I should have added the smilies.

Karen wrote:She doesn't always get a good look from the judges at AF trials because she's the only Brittany entered....nearly all the time.

I have lost my fair share of times - but it wasn't because of the breed I was running. When we deserved to win, we did.

slistoe wrote: My bad. I should have added the smilies.

Just don't let it happen again.....

Maybe create a JFC JAFC title it'll help increase entries in some of the juvenile stakes..

Make it same requirements in regards to needing a major and numbers of dogs that need to be defeated as a FC and AFC

^ then the show people will advertize the dogs as field champions.......... just like JH advanced i see no point.

It's not broke. With that kind of change then all past Champions would be subject to all kinds of second guessing. I bet it would make an interested thread

ultracarry wrote:^ then the show people will advertize the dogs as field champions.......... just like JH advanced i see no point.

Oh yes...because all us "show people" are SO unreasonable!

Do you mind if I advertise my dual as a field champion?

Tyler is just bitter because when he asked my EX to show his dog in the ring she said "no, it would be a waste of my time, she can't finish".

Karen wrote:

ultracarry wrote:^ then the show people will advertize the dogs as field champions.......... just like JH advanced i see no point.

Oh yes...because all us "show people" are SO unreasonable!

Do you mind if I advertise my dual as a field champion?

Do you go for show or dual champions? May be a slight difference as anyone can teach a dog to flash point abird and chase one down with enough time and effort (see training section) . In the mean time, feel free to file a "hurt feelings report"

Jeff that's not what she said.......... Hummmmm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Tyler is just bitter because when he asked my EX to show his dog in the ring she said "no, it would be a waste of my time, she can't finish".

I don't know. You could probably finish a dalmatian as a GSP with the right judges...

ultracarry wrote:^ then the show people will advertize the dogs as field champions.......... just like JH advanced i see no point.

If the "show" people can get out there and have their dogs perform to CH standards and defeat the number of dogs needed to be a FC why can't they say they have a FC?

Utracarry, please tell me how many FC you have to have to be so arrogant and opinionated on what everyone else is doing.

I'm just curious when I've accomplished enough to be able to belittle other people's accomplishments like you try to.

Adam wrote:

ultracarry wrote:^ then the show people will advertize the dogs as field champions.......... just like JH advanced i see no point.

If the "show" people can get out there and have their dogs perform to CH standards and defeat the number of dogs needed to be a FC why can't they say they have a FC?

I didn't say they couldn't. Did you see the arrow pointed to thecomment of a JFC and JAFC? I never said a show dog that could perform and beat other dogs in the field did not deserve it. Wouldnt that be a dual dog?

Karen please read my comment with the arrow pointed to what I am referencing. Still you put your feelings out there. If we were so concerned about feelings, everyone would get a ribbon and prize with a good job pat on the back. Again google hurt feelings report, fill it out , and file it.

Karen, He has one. it's his first gundog and she's great. I've spent alot of time with her and handled her in more than one triIal. Unfortunately she broke my heart every time but when she is on she is on. He is just a little spoiled because it was easy for her and he will admit it. He did have the foresight to get her out of the wrong hands and into the right ones.

Tyler, there is a handler named Val Nunez who specials GSP's. She is your best bet at a CH/DC if you really want to try it. Be ready for $3-500 per weekend and about 20-30 weekends chasing it though.

ultracarry wrote:

Adam wrote:

ultracarry wrote:^ then the show people will advertize the dogs as field champions.......... just like JH advanced i see no point.

If the "show" people can get out there and have their dogs perform to CH standards and defeat the number of dogs needed to be a FC why can't they say they have a FC?

I didn't say they couldn't. Did you see the arrow pointed to thecomment of a JFC and JAFC? I never said a show dog that could perform and beat other dogs in the field did not deserve it. Wouldnt that be a dual dog?

Karen please read my comment with the arrow pointed to what I am referencing. Still you put your feelings out there. If we were so concerned about feelings, everyone would get a ribbon and prize with a good job pat on the back. Again google hurt feelings report, fill it out , and file it.

Make it same requirements in regards to needing a major and numbers of dogs that need to be defeated as a FC and AFC

Not quite sure I understand your original comment then?

yep, and that's who your ex referred me to. I have her kenneled at her place when I need to and it is super clean, top notch and well worth the money to have her stay there.

I own more than one GSP. Maybe three.

Adam - if they started the Junior version you stated they would advertise them as a Field Champion with no ref to the junior part......

Those "bleep" show people are a bunch of liar aren't they!

Tyler, so let Val show her. That would give you a DC and a total of 4 titles. If it's so easy then just do it and then I will accept your comments about people pursuing more than just an FC. After you get that 4th title you will have achieved what many of u's strive for, the Dual dog. You would also have to multiply those 4 titleS by 5 to equal what I've put on one dog and multiply it by 15 times for 3 dogs. Now I ask, who is doing more to better the breed? Someone who shoots for one goal or since these dogs are "versatile" breeds, someone who truly breeds, trains, competes and strives for more than one goal?

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Tyler, so let Val show her. That would give you a DC and a total of 4 titles. If it's so easy then just do it and then I will accept your comments about people pursuing more than just an FC. After you get that 4th title you will have achieved what many of u's strive for, the Dual dog. You would also have to multiply those 4 titleS by 5 to equal what I've put on one dog and multiply it by 15 times for 3 dogs. Now I ask, who is doing more to better the breed? Someone who shoots for one goal or since these dogs are "versatile" breeds, someone who truly breeds, trains, competes and strives for more than one goal?

Get out there and show her yourself!

Adam & Karen
I have sat ringside myself as I do help my club out with their shows. My husband and I support all the venues. When you sit ringside and you hear someone sitting there trying to promote their "STUD" / BITCH and they say "She/HE is EVEN a JH" and the other party involved in the conversation says "WOW" (mind you the bitch is now 4+), it does not give much credit to those of us more field based people sitting ringside. I do believe some people running for office in a certain breed club at this time claim to have field background and the most I see on pedigrees and brags when I researched is just the stepping stone piece JH for the field portion.... JH is a beginning that in most pups should be acheiveable at 6months to 12months old as well as NAVHDA Natural ability . Both NAVHDA NA and juvenile field trial stakes have age limitations, whereas the JH or JH advanced does not.

Not everyone is striving for that DC or MH or AFC as you and Adam are. I do have the utmost respect for someone who challenges their dogs in both field / show as you both are. I will not show my dogs as I really am a horrible show handler and as you all know and have heard I couldnt show two out of the four anyways as they are BLACK. I do not have the finness it takes....or the $$$$$$$ to hire someone . We do all our field training ourselves as well...Its fun we enjoy it and cannot part with the green stuff.$$$
As for a JFC or JAFC ummmm I do not agree for the above stated. Puppy / derby , JH ......all stepping stones . IMO not a reason to pick a breeding prospect from.

I read Doco's post I couldnt agree more. People and dogs need to get involved and it is a great place to start. It is fun putting them out there.
Maybe this is what ultracarry was trying to express in his own abrasive way....not sure as I have been a target of his from time to time......and as far as feelings go....I only have one & I guess and it doesnt get hurt very often.... Hey great discussion and topic...Why change the FC AFC rules /reg...some of us dont like change...and you all know who you are

It has been brought to my attention that I criticised and mad fun of someone in this thread. At this time I would like to send out an apology to those that I criticised and made fun of as well as those who have read my comments. It was not my intention and didn't feel I was personally attacking someone.

Maybe my abrasive side just came out again. I will try to keep others at the forefront of my thinking before posting an opinion. Again, I am sorry.

I agree 100% that there are people saying they have "hunting" dogs because they're Junior hunters but what I can't see is somebody saying they have a FC because they achieved a Juvenile title... I don't think the point system will ever change but if it did how else would you get people interested in running puppy and derby stakes if there was nothing to work towards?

Adam wrote:I agree 100% that there are people saying they have "hunting" dogs because they're Junior hunters but what I can't see is somebody saying they have a FC because they achieved a Juvenile title... I don't think the point system will ever change but if it did how else would you get people interested in running puppy and derby stakes if there was nothing to work towards?

Adam this can go on and on.....Should their be walking FC's vs HB FC's ... Is one title worth more than another? etc etc etc... Ok another topic...should people run what they brought or leave um on the stake out because they are finished on both sides. Only run those dogs in limited stakes?
On another note pros could complain about us amatuers because we can enter a AGD ret stake that is a 4 point major ...we have then acrued all our ret points that count toward our FC and our AFC ....Those four points can carry over to the Open side and count on the amateur side as well....
I hear what your saying but ..... there are resources/sites to see where dogs have accured and how they have accrued their titles. (juvenile, majors, locations, the dogs competed against). Are people getting it done at small trials or 100dog trials. I think we cannot sweat the small stuff. I do believe if a dog is gonna get it done it can get it done with ALL adult points anyway, but why complain about the way it is . Dont want to discourage new people right? and why would you want to waste $$$ on a juvenile title that is not going to go toward something.

raven34 wrote:

Adam wrote:I agree 100% that there are people saying they have "hunting" dogs because they're Junior hunters but what I can't see is somebody saying they have a FC because they achieved a Juvenile title... I don't think the point system will ever change but if it did how else would you get people interested in running puppy and derby stakes if there was nothing to work towards?

Adam this can go on and on.....Should their be walking FC's vs HB FC's ... Is one title worth more than another? etc etc etc... Ok another topic...should people run what they brought or leave um on the stake out because they are finished on both sides. Only run those dogs in limited stakes?
On another note pros could complain about us amatuers because we can enter a AGD ret stake that is a 4 point major ...we have then acrued all our ret points that count toward our FC and our AFC ....Those four points can carry over to the Open side and count on the amateur side as well....
I hear what your saying but ..... there are resources/sites to see where dogs have accured and how they have accrued their titles. (juvenile, majors, locations, the dogs competed against). Are people getting it done at small trials or 100dog trials. I think we cannot sweat the small stuff. I do believe if a dog is gonna get it done it can get it done with ALL adult points anyway, but why complain about the way it is . Dont want to discourage new people right? and why would you want to waste $$$ on a juvenile title that is not going to go toward something. Same thing goes for Hunt test JH..if you get four passes only need 4 SH intead of 5..... If you get SH only need 5 legs instead of 6 to get your MH

Oh and ultracarry that was a great apology!!!! Forced or not I may need a tissue

Adam wrote:I agree 100% that there are people saying they have "hunting" dogs because they're Junior hunters but what I can't see is somebody saying they have a FC because they achieved a Juvenile title... I don't think the point system will ever change but if it did how else would you get people interested in running puppy and derby stakes if there was nothing to work towards?

C'mon now. If you cannot see someone wanting to promote their dog because it has a JH title, you are not looking. They do. It is a joke...but they do.

It matters not that a dog that has passed a junior hunter test, has only demonsttrated that it is BARELY qualified to be in the field. Some folks will will promote it like it is actually some sort of significant accomplishment. Sorry if this offends anyone, but...it ain't. In point of fact, a bird dog that CANNOT PASS a junior hunter test by the time it is twelve months old, does not deserve to reproduce, in my opinion.

Now, by way of comparison... show me the next step up... a Senior Hunter dog. A dog that can pass the senior hunt test requirements is a very serviceable hunting dog. In my opinon, a Senior Hunter is dog that many folks would be proud and happy to hunt behind.

We all know, in our hearts, that if there were to be some sort of BS title for puppy or derby, SOME folks would go for it and promote it like it was really something. That is just the way things are.

RayG

Adam, there already is something to work toward...an FC or AFC title A couple of steps into a race shouldn't be the finish line.