really! (why trials should not be limited to a breed.)

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:49 pm

Page 2 of the NAVHDA rule book says, " No useful purpose is served by comparing the performance of one school of hunting dogs against the rules and standards of another. It is about as useful as comparing a good football quarterback to a good baseball pither. It is the NAVHDA position that such comparison should be discouraged."
So yes, the Judges do take breed characteristics into account when judging.
I'll say this, if the Spinone was my chosen breed and my only choice as a club officer was to host an open trial, I wouldn't host a trial. Why should I do all of the work?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:03 pm

Luckily I am smart enough to judge the difference between an All-Age and Shooting Dog, and although a finer line between horseback and walking, I think I got that one.

But it seems to me, in North America at least, all dogs are used to the same end, finding birds. In a ft emostrating they would find wild birds were they equally available with style, class, endurance, in a pleasing manner.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:40 pm

DonF wrote:Well on the lighter side, I've been noticing KwikIrish's avatar photo and noticing that whoever is walking out to flush birds for the Visla has great legs!

Don! You old dog

Kitty would be appalled that you would call her a vizsla.

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Don, you either need your vision checked or need to seek psychiatric help.

Prefer your legs a little thicker?

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:22 am

deseeker wrote:Field Champion (FC) Title

Pointing Breeds:

10 points at 3 trials, with at least 1 win of 3 points or better in:
Open All-Age
Open Gun Dog
Open Limited All-Age
Open Limited Gun Dog
No more than 2 points from puppy (Open and/or Amateur Walking)
No more than 2 points from derby (Open and/or Amateur Walking)
No more than 4 of the 10 points have been won by placing 1st in Amateur Stakes.

Exceptions:
Brittany - Must win 3 points or better in, Open Gun Dog, Open All-Age, Open Limited Gun Dog or Open Limited All-Age at a trial held by a Brittany Club.

German Shorthaired Pointer, German Wirehaired Pointer, Vizsla, or Weimaraner - Must win 4 points in retrieving stakes.

German Wirehaired Pointer or Weimaraner must pass a Water Test under 2 judges at Specialty Clubs Field Trials, Hunt Tests or Seminars.

Jim--- above is what it takes to be an AKC FC ---- you'll notice some breeds have to have retreiving points, some breeds have to have watter retreives, and britts have to have a 3 point win in britt trials. There are different standards for different breeds for a FC title. They are not all the same standards.

I understand all that and will accept that the standards are different. However there is nothing on that list that would require a closed breed trial, and in truth nothing on that list that even really has to take place on course.

I will be the first to admit that I am against closed breed trials because it effects me personally. there are very few trials within a reasonable driving distance of me and within 2-3hrs there are at least 5-6 a year that are closed. it is frustrating to say the least. More so, when the trial in question is listed as all breed and then while you are packing up the trailer to go, you get the call that your check will be shredded because the trial is a closed breed event. The same when you get caught up in the good ol boy system.

Jim

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:14 am

Quote from Jim--I will be the first to admit that I am against closed breed trials because it effects me personally. there are very few trials within a reasonable driving distance of me and within 2-3hrs there are at least 5-6 a year that are closed. it is frustrating to say the least. More so, when the trial in question is listed as all breed and then while you are packing up the trailer to go, you get the call that your check will be shredded because the trial is a closed breed event. The same when you get caught up in the good ol boy system. The preceding was a quote from Jim

Jim--
After looking at the AKC event search, I see there are not many of your breed club trials in your area. A solution might be get with your parent breed club(gsp, according to your dogs listed) and start a club in your area---that way you could have 2 trials a year in your area, open to whoever you want. That's what the MT Brittany club did because there was a lack of trials in their area. Just a thought. I'm sure the gsp would like to have a new club and more trials.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:18 am

deseeker wrote:Quote from Jim--I will be the first to admit that I am against closed breed trials because it effects me personally. there are very few trials within a reasonable driving distance of me and within 2-3hrs there are at least 5-6 a year that are closed. it is frustrating to say the least. More so, when the trial in question is listed as all breed and then while you are packing up the trailer to go, you get the call that your check will be shredded because the trial is a closed breed event. The same when you get caught up in the good ol boy system. The preceding was a quote from Jim

Jim--
After looking at the AKC event search, I see there are not many of your breed club trials in your area. A solution might be get with your parent breed club(gsp, according to your dogs listed) and start a club in your area---that way you could have 2 trials a year in your area, open to whoever you want. That's what the MT Brittany club did because there was a lack of trials in their area. Just a thought. I'm sure the gsp would like to have a new club and more trials.

He doesn't need to get with a breed club. AKC allows all breed pointing dog clubs to hold FT's.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:18 am

A club can have 4 trials per year now, 3 of which allow horseback handling

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:13 pm

Jim--
After looking at the AKC event search, I see there are not many of your breed club trials in your area. A solution might be get with your parent breed club(gsp, according to your dogs listed) and start a club in your area---that way you could have 2 trials a year in your area, open to whoever you want. That's what the MT Brittany club did because there was a lack of trials in their area. Just a thought. I'm sure the gsp would like to have a new club and more trials.[/quote]

I have briefly looked into this, but if I remember correctly the state of IN has some off the wall laws regarding horses on state owned land or something and there is a legal(?) issue with why there are no FT stkes around.

As far as "my breed" I dont care who I run against or who's club I run at I just want to run. To the point where I am going to get my current derby FDSB registered because there are alot more AF trials within a reasonable distance.... I am one of those guys that wants all my dogs to run like a pointer

.

Jim

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:16 pm

or this.....

http://www.fws.gov/midwest/NEPA/INField ... t-ft2b.PDF

Jim

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:29 pm

Jim what about all the trials in IL, Eastern MO, KY, and TN?

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:46 pm

jimbo&rooster wrote:or this.....

http://www.fws.gov/midwest/NEPA/INField ... t-ft2b.PDF

Jim

Man, your state really hates field trialers

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:52 pm

I haven't opened your link, but I'd bet it has plenty to do with Pitman-Robertson funds. And what we have found here in MN is that the pre-existing use of state owned property has quite a bearing on what you can do with it as far as FT/HT's go. We have been able to get new grounds to HT/FT on, but they had to be newly purchased tracts of land.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:07 pm

Adam wrote:Jim what about all the trials in IL, Eastern MO, KY, and TN?

there are several trials in the surrounding states and I'm happy to go. I just get irritated every time I click on a Britt club trial that is only a couple hours away as opposed to 4-6hrs, and find that its a closed stakes. I've gotten to where i don't even look at Britt club trials.

Jim

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:10 am

I would not take a pointer to a britt club trial even if it were open. You're going to get home cooked anyway. Most pointer guys have little interest or use for AKC events. There are a few pointers being run in AKC but most are run under American Field sanctioned events.

I do think you could take another continental breed to a britt or shorthair or visla club trial and do well

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:35 am

Saddle wrote:I would not take a pointer to a britt club trial even if it were open. You're going to get home cooked anyway. Most pointer guys have little interest or use for AKC events. There are a few pointers being run in AKC but most are run under American Field sanctioned events.

I do think you could take another continental breed to a britt or shorthair or visla club trial and do well

So you are saying that the judges are crooked? I know a lot of people with the continental breeds have felt that way when going to pointer trial but it is just hard for me to believe that it is true. But I do see where a pointer may have trouble. That's as it should be though,since the different breeds have different ways of ways of getting the job done.

Ezzy

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:46 am

I know someone who took his pointer to a britt trial, as the story goes to be a jerk and prove a point, and he cleaned up.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:50 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Saddle wrote:I would not take a pointer to a britt club trial even if it were open. You're going to get home cooked anyway. Most pointer guys have little interest or use for AKC events. There are a few pointers being run in AKC but most are run under American Field sanctioned events.

I do think you could take another continental breed to a britt or shorthair or visla club trial and do well
So you are saying that the judges are crooked? I know a lot of people with the continental breeds have felt that way when going to pointer trial but it is just hard for me to believe that it is true. But I do see where a pointer may have trouble. That's as it should be though,since the different breeds have different ways of ways of getting the job done.

Ezzy

Yeah Ezzy I'm saying judges can be dishonest. I've seen some nice continentals run in American Field shooting dog stakes and get it done that didn't even sniff a placement. It sucks Ezzy but its part of trials I guess. The discrimination goes both ways.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:04 am

Do points in "limited" stakes count toward your championship in the AKC. If so that's a bigger problem than juvenile points counting.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:14 am

Saddle wrote:Do points in "limited" stakes count toward your championship in the AKC. If so that's a bigger problem than juvenile points counting.

Yes they do count. As a matter of fact it should be harder to win those stakes because that's where most people run their finished dogs
.

Not a problem at all.

Doug

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:18 am

The limited stakes I've seen the dogs had no placements is that right? I don't want to speak out of turn because I don't know.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:24 am

Saddle wrote:The limited stakes I've seen the dogs had no placements is that right? I don't want to speak out of turn because I don't know.

To run in limited stakes you need a derby win or a placement in a broke stake.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:26 am

You might be confusing AKC limited and AF restricted.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:26 am

Saddle wrote:The limited stakes I've seen the dogs had no placements is that right? I don't want to speak out of turn because I don't know.

If they don't have a broke placement, then they had a Derby win to qualify to run in limited stakes.

Doug

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:28 am

Ok. I don't know what I'm thinking about then.

Winchey I know I've seen stakes advertised as limited to dogs with no placements. It was a long time ago.

shags · Post by **shags** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:29 am

Saddle,
In AKC limited stakes mean limited to dogs with a derby first or a broke dog placement. It's where most folks run their FCs or AFCs. Maybe you're thinking about restricted stakes open only to specifically named breeds. Hope this helps.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:32 am

I think I'm thinking of NSTRA events. They run trials for dogs with no placements. Wrong association sorry.

Shags thanks. I knew a restricted stake was for a certain breed. I guess I had my definition of limited fowled up.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:34 am

Restricted AF stakes are limited to dogs without a SD or AA placement, as a way to get more dogs qualified.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:54 am

Saddle wrote:I would not take a pointer to a britt club trial even if it were open. You're going to get home cooked anyway. Most pointer guys have little interest or use for AKC events. There are a few pointers being run in AKC but most are run under American Field sanctioned events.

I do think you could take another continental breed to a britt or shorthair or visla club trial and do well

Mo Valley Brittany Club Open Gun 4/2011---45 starters, EP 2nd
Mo Valley Brittany club Open Gun 9/2011---52 starters, EP 2nd, ES 3rd
I don't think as many judges are as bias as you think--They will put up dogs that deserve to be there (IMO)

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:12 am

That's nice that you provided 1 example I can list dozens and dozens on the other end of that. I don't speak in absolutes. Ive watched hundreds and hundreds of dogs run. I've seen it happen a lot. Not every time but a lot of the time.

You're really not trying to make the argument the Continental breed doesn't have to do 3 o 4 times as much to win an American field trial are you?

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:26 am

Saddle wrote:That's nice that you provided 1 example I can list dozens and dozens on the other end of that. I don't speak in absolutes. Ive watched hundreds and hundreds of dogs run. I've seen it happen a lot. Not every time but a lot of the time.

You're really not trying to make the argument the Continental breed doesn't have to do 3 o 4 times as much to win an American field trial are you?

Mo Valley Brittany Club Am Gun 13 starters 4/2009---ES 1st
Nebr Britt Club Open Gun 50 starters 9/2009---ES 3rd, EP 4th
Nebr Britt Club Am Gun 15 starters 4/2010----EP 4th
Mo Valley Britt Club 15 starters 4/2010---EP 1st
Here's a few more for you---at least in this area MOST judges pick the best dogs for placements(I just picked the long tails out---there are also a bunch of GSP placements at the Nebraska trials as well).

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:45 am

AKC events are held by breed clubs. There are some group clubs, but mostly breed clubs. Breed is the focus of AKC participants.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:05 pm

Answer my last question would you please. You seem to be avoiding it. In AFTCA trials you hardly see any continentals at the walking level. In Kansas alone you won't find any non pointer/setter dog of the year recipients. And it's not because there haven't been nice dogs run they just won't win

You're out of touch with reality if you don't think there's any bias and field trialing.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:24 pm

Fron what I have seen hardly any of them ever run in those trials. There are lots of nice pointers and setters that do. What are the odds of 1 nice GSP being dog of the year against 100 nice pointers and setters? 100-1

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:35 pm

I have been running my Britts in longtail AFTCA trials since the 70's, I can only think of a couple times the judges let their bias influence their judgement. And there is a very real bias for a 12 o'clock straight tail, it is very hard for them to give cred to a stub tail.

Yet I have placed when we earned it, including the Memphis Amateur, the oldest amateur club in the US. And at heck Creek, some of the biggest grounds in the South. Clair Gross used one of my dogs in large trial filled with Tracy trained dogs.

There were a couple times I thought we should have placed higher, but I have biases, too.

Nearly all judges are honest.

You can check my modest record at the win database at AFTCA. Percentage wise I have won more there than at AKC. Better than 30%.

Neil

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:41 pm

I have read that if you look at the number of each breed entered the ratio of winners will be almost the same as those entered. If true then it seems there is little bias.

Ezzy

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:20 pm

What you read and what you see first hand are 2 different things.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:35 pm

Saddle wrote:Answer my last question would you please. You seem to be avoiding it. In AFTCA trials you hardly see any continentals at the walking level. In Kansas alone you won't find any non pointer/setter dog of the year recipients. And it's not because there haven't been nice dogs run they just won't win

You're out of touch with reality if you don't think there's any bias and field trialing.

I've been told, "as much as it hurts me to put up a vizsla over pointers"... I know they were joking but the thought is there.... But they still did use her.

But on the other hand, I can distinctly remember a situation where a dog wasn't picked up when it should have been for failure to back. When I asked the judge why not, they thought that since my vizsla was standing on dirt, that maybe the other dog didn't see him since he "kinda blended in" with the dirt.

That dog later ripped a dog in front of my dog and he chased. Both dogs were picked up with 5 minutes left in the hour.

Another time, my little bitch wasn't used in a trial. I had both the first place and the third place dog owner ask me why she wasn't used. They thought she had it won.
I don't know, and I didnt' get to ask the judge.

IN retrospect, I suppose it is more of a case by case (Rather, a judge by judge) situation.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:37 pm

I was just about to use you as an example John I'm glad you chimed in.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:52 pm

Saddle wrote:I was just about to use you as an example John I'm glad you chimed in.

Yeah, a lot of times, I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall.
But I guess it's all part of it.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:39 pm

It is but shouldn't be.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:00 pm

I was once braced with a longtime pointer guy, owner of the NBHA NC, who told the judges he didn't think his dog would back a dog without a tail. I told him if his dog beat mine to the birds, it shouldn't be a problem. The judges and the gallery all laughed, we took 3rd, he didn't place.

There are lots of reason we get beat, rarely is it crooked judges.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:57 pm

Neil wrote:I was once braced with a longtime pointer guy, owner of the NBHA NC, who told the judges he didn't think his dog would back a dog without a tail. I told him if his dog beat mine to the birds, it shouldn't be a problem. The judges and the gallery all laughed, we took 3rd, he didn't place.

There are lots of reason we get beat, rarely is it crooked judges.

Funny, I hear that joke all the time. I dont think thr judges are crooked but in the end you are competing for a couple guys preference. And they naturally may prefer one breed over another. It is what it is. If I didnt like it no one is forcing me to enter. As an aside, the other handler in my example above is a hall of famer and a gracious man. He told me afterwards that his diff should have been picked up but he was going to make the judges do that. He also told me my dog beat the pants of f of his and that, is good enough. He has always been very supportive and kind.
Ive also had guys tell me they respect what Im trying to do and to "keep fighting the good fight"
Take that for whatever you will.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:31 pm

V-John

please tell me your or your dog's name?

And I did not know I was repeating an old joke, honest.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:37 pm

Seems to be some folks that are unhappy with many Brittany trials being closed. I wonder if it would change much if all non britt clubs open entries to all breeds but britts?

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:51 pm

Locally, we vary rarely see a Brit entered in a FT other than a Brit FT. So, constructing a FT open to All pointing breeds with the exception of Brits isn't really going to accomplish much.

They've built a juggernaut of an operation....good for them. I wish Gordons could replicate it.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:13 pm

Neil wrote:V-John

please tell me your or your dog's name?

And I did not know I was repeating an old joke, honest.

Neil, PM heading your way.

As an aside, I didnt mean anything about the joke comment either.