really! (why trials should not be limited to a breed.)

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:54 pm

Well, ya'll that were wronged need to converge on the AKC Performance Dept with yer pitchforks. Justice! We demand JUSTICE!!!

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:02 pm

cmc274 wrote:
larue wrote:

a versatile champion,and a master hunter so a well trained dog who has accomplished much in its life,but field trial style?
If we were only judging style, we would call it a beauty contest.

Through field trials the hope would be they could evaluates their stock and 'improve' the breed by selecting and breeding the individuals that exhibit the qualities that are desired by everyone- independence, application, gait, grit, heart, bird sense, etc.

If what we see is what owners of that breed expect and accept, who are we to tell them it's not up to par? And if they don't want their dogs running the way Shorthairs, Britt's, Setter's, Pointer's, ect, why shouldn't they close their trials? I think the Weimaraner's have been doing that for years, good for them. Perhaps more Shorthair and Britt and Wirehair owner's should step up to AF horse back trials and compete with the top Setter's and Pointer's.

What is done in horseback broke dog stakes is exactly the reason NSTRA came into existent. That's a pretty big group of people that prefer a different standard! They are no more wrong than horseback people.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:16 pm

this is why trials should not be limited to a breed.

I can see why someone might say this, but in actuality there is lots of separation going on anyway. Most trial dogs are competing at the level where they are competitive. if we laugh at Spinones then the AA guys should laugh at the AKC "short" trackers.

When you start looking down your nose....you need to look up to see who's looking down their nose at you.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:21 pm

DonF wrote:
If what we see is what owners of that breed expect and accept, who are we to tell them it's not up to par? And if they don't want their dogs running the way Shorthairs, Britt's, Setter's, Pointer's, ect, why shouldn't they close their trials? I think the Weimaraner's have been doing that for years, good for them. Perhaps more Shorthair and Britt and Wirehair owner's should step up to AF horse back trials and compete with the top Setter's and Pointer's.

What is done in horseback broke dog stakes is exactly the reason NSTRA came into existent. That's a pretty big group of people that prefer a different standard! They are no more wrong than horseback people.

Don, you know why. It's because plenty of the GSP guys believe the sun rises and sets outta the *ss of a GSP.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:33 pm

JKP wrote:
this is why trials should not be limited to a breed.
I can see why someone might say this, but in actuality there is lots of separation going on anyway. Most trial dogs are competing at the level where they are competitive. if we laugh at Spinones then the AA guys should laugh at the AKC "short" trackers.

When you start looking down your nose....you need to look up to see who's looking down their nose at you.

I wholeheartedly agree with these sentiments. I like what I like. I will defend my right to like what I like wih vigor.

Someone else should be free to like what they like, even if it happens to be different from what I like. I would expect them to defend their likes with vigor as well.

The question is why a trial should or should not be limited to a breed. The best answer is more than likely something that considers what that dog is expected to do in the field and what is best for that particular breed of dog.

RayG

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:34 pm

LaRue I hear what you are saying and for the most part agree. But you and I both know that one of the reasons for Fts is too establish the best dog of the day for a particular stake. Breeding the Best too the Best also plays into the success of the EP,GSP, Viz; GWP and Brits and the others. A breed clubs like the Spinone can benefit greatly from closed FTs. It enables them to establish and find the best dogs. Hopefully those dogs will then be used for breeding purposes and help to improvement of the breed. It is the breeds like Spinone and Griffs and Munsters, and a few others that at this time only have standards for testing and it is hurting their breeds. They have no way of finding or establishing which dogs are the best, and a closed FT will help them find those Best dogs.
At this time all they can do is breed like to like for the most part, and we all know what happens when it goes on for several generations,, you get less.
I don`t beleive that we will see any Spins at the trials in the next few years, but they are only taking a page out of the AF play book and I for one applaud them for doing something rather than doing nothing. The breed will benefit from the competition just like ours have.

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:46 pm

I like the breed trials that will advertise four stakes along with the championship and close the championship to one breed but allow any breed in the companion stakes.

I'll add this too. I hear this on this site and other sites about how britts and shorthairs and wirehairs and so on and so forth can run with any pointer any time in any venue. Obviously these clubs don't believe that to be true or else they wouldn't limit their trials to their specific breed.

I like all breeds but I think its weak to flaunt championship titles around on dogs that haven't earned them against all comers. In my opinon it makes these championships and champions a little less then a dog that runs against all comers. The one thing that AFTCA champions can say is that they beat anyone who cared to enter.

It think this begs another question: Should a trial with limited entries give you points towards a championship?

1vizsla · Post by **1vizsla** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:11 pm

I think is it just fine! I have seen judges not give a second glance because the dog didn't hunt like a pointer.

Carla

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:47 pm

I think the only people that should care where a spin got its FC are the owners of spins and people that want one. I'll never own a spin. Nothing personal. Just not my type of dog. I'll never own a britt either. If I never will own these breeds why should I be concerned with how they do things?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:50 pm

Saddle wrote:I like the breed trials that will advertise four stakes along with the championship and close the championship to one breed but allow any breed in the companion stakes.

I'll add this too. I hear this on this site and other sites about how britts and shorthairs and wirehairs and so on and so forth can run with any pointer any time in any venue. Obviously these clubs don't believe that to be true or else they wouldn't limit their trials to their specific breed.

I like all breeds but I think its weak to flaunt championship titles around on dogs that haven't earned them against all comers. In my opinon it makes these championships and champions a little less then a dog that runs against all comers. The one thing that AFTCA champions can say is that they beat anyone who cared to enter.

It think this begs another question: Should a trial with limited entries give you points towards a championship?

By that logic, the Continental and Alamaba CHs, as they are limited to pointers and English setters, are weak? I don't agree. There are other American Field trials closed to other breeds, but it sure is not because they fear the competition. As with many breed trials it is because they want to.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:11 pm

How about of if the Spinone Club held an open trial in North Dakota this time of year in windy, zero or colder temperatures with extensive water work in icy ponds, or maybe water work in the ocean. Two feet of snow anyone? And what if they had an open trial where conformation to the breed standard was part of the judging? What if the whole trial was skewed to the Spinone's considerably stronger physical charateristics, better nose and generally close adherence to the breed standard?

I bet many would cry foul, especially the brit and pointer people. No offense to anyone but its obvious most breeds would be unable to perform in that weather or water or under most reasonable conformation standards.

That is why closed trials make sense. The supporters of open trials just want to force everyone into a protocol that benefits them.

In Italy, a Spinone that holds its tail high on point is disqualified and Spinone that runs is also frowned upon.

They are water and forest hunting dogs, leave them be........they are the oldest of the gun dogs that you are likely to see. They deserve to be what they are.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:24 pm

It would be pretty tough to have water work in North Dakota at 0 degrees. Even harder to have water work there in the ocean. There are field trials in the forests and that is pretty bold to say theyhave the best noses.

MonsterDad · Post by **MonsterDad** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:35 pm

Winchey wrote:It would be pretty tough to have water work in North Dakota at 0 degrees. Even harder to have water work there in the ocean. There are field trials in the forests and that is pretty bold to say theyhave the best noses.

You get what I am saying. Would you put your setter in coastal water this time of year? Doubtful. As much as I love Setters, they can't swim a lick compared to a Spin, let alone in winter water.

And I wouldn't expect a Spin to enjoy running on a 95 degree day like a setter will.

There is no reason to compare such different animals in a formal competition.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:48 pm

Mine swims like a fish, but ya, I don't really expect him or want him to break ice and see what you meen. I do however feel that spins and munsters would greatly benifet from trials. The versatiles have a entire other can of worms to deal with in the versatile traits they need to maintain that can play against them in a trial venue. I am fine with restructing breeds in these instances to help adress that. I also have no problem with someone entering all breed trials and trying to create more of a bird dog like the gsp's.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:20 pm

The question is why a trial should or should not be limited to a breed. The best answer is more than likely something that considers what that dog is expected to do in the field and what is best for that particular breed of dog.

Bingo!! The Spinone standard describes the working style and pace of the breed. The traditional Spin should work like a trotter at speed ... and before you laugh, there are many race horses that can not keep up with the top trotters.

I think we may be defining the term "trial" to narrowly. Trials were going on for many years before the 1000 yd wonder dogs showed up. From some of the reactions here, it would apeear some folks are incapable of appreciating dogs for what they are.

I will wager that 90% of the wild birds in this country are shot over dogs that point no more than 150 yds from the gun....and most folks enjoy that...seeing their doh make game.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:25 pm

Spinone creep into a point.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:45 pm

Spinone creep into a point.

You mean like...all Pointers are run offs??? I hope you are joking.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:51 pm

Adam wrote:They ran 2 courses at both trials and were "filled" at both trials... I dont believe there were "bye" braces at the walking trial though I have that running order as well.

If you look at the b course judges Haukoos & West, they have dogs in every event on the a course. They can not run dogs the same time they are judging, so some of the stakes had to be held up until they were done judging. Can't run and judge at the same time

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:59 pm

deseeker wrote:
Adam wrote:They ran 2 courses at both trials and were "filled" at both trials... I dont believe there were "bye" braces at the walking trial though I have that running order as well.
If you look at the b course judges Haukoos & West, they have dogs in every event on the a course. They can not run dogs the same time they are judging, so some of the stakes had to be held up until they were done judging. Can't run and judge at the same time

If true, another infraction of the rules that should be reported to AKC, judges can only run dogs before or after the stake they are judging. Now don't think the AKC will do anything bad to them, just put them on notice to follow the rules.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:10 pm

cmc274 wrote:Lets do some simple math

On the open course (i'll use 30 minutes for every brace even though there were 6 puppy braces and 5 derby braces). 23 braces over 2 days. That's 5.75 hours of time on the ground per day. Throw in an hour each day for call backs and 30 minutes for lunch and that is 7 hours and 15 minutes per day. If you started at 7:30AM you would be done at 2:45.

On the amateur course. 20 total braces. 5 hours per day, one hour for call backs and 30 minutes for lunch. You start at 7:30, you are done by 2:00.

I put on a trial in SC, 2 weeks earlier. I have a real good understanding of available daylight.

How about the 15 to 20 mins between braces or the potty break or watering the horses. Might even spend 5 or 10 mins talking to the people who asked questions. But all of this is just banter since the club is free to offer whatever since they are paying the bills. We have even had judges who said they wanted to be done by 2 or 3 on Sunday so they could get home since they had to work Monday morning. This sounds like the inmates setting the schedule.

Ezzy

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:15 pm

Neil wrote:
deseeker wrote:
Adam wrote:They ran 2 courses at both trials and were "filled" at both trials... I dont believe there were "bye" braces at the walking trial though I have that running order as well.
If you look at the b course judges Haukoos & West, they have dogs in every event on the a course. They can not run dogs the same time they are judging, so some of the stakes had to be held up until they were done judging. Can't run and judge at the same time
If true, another infraction of the rules that should be reported to AKC, judges can only run dogs before or after the stake they are judging. Now don't think the AKC will do anything bad to them, just put them on notice to follow the rules.

I didn't say they stopped judging to run dogs. They had to judge all their braces before club could start the events that had Haokoos dogs in---that means even thought they had 2 courses, they could only run on one until they were done judging.

BellaSpinone · Post by **BellaSpinone** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:39 pm

Guess I am a little confused... Isn't the person who started this post the sameone who proposes to be in favor of attracting new participants to sustain the sport?

http://classic.akc.org/events/field_tri ... trials.cfm

This is the Spinone Club's first field trial and it is during the nationals week.

For those who think Spinone are a joke, we can talk more at the NAVHDA Invatational. Not sure what day we are running but I'll be there working our off days. Let me know which day you are running and I'll look you up.

My entry is
KS Bella Margerita Di Morghengo UT Prize 1 -204

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:49 pm

I truly wish I had been born wealthy instead of so good looking...I would love to have the extra time to go watch. These are fascinating dogs.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:51 am

BellaSpinone wrote:Guess I am a little confused... Isn't the person who started this post the sameone who proposes to be in favor of attracting new participants to sustain the sport?

http://classic.akc.org/events/field_tri ... trials.cfm

This is the Spinone Club's first field trial and it is during the nationals week.

For those who think Spinone are a joke, we can talk more at the NAVHDA Invatational. Not sure what day we are running but I'll be there working our off days. Let me know which day you are running and I'll look you up.

My entry is
KS Bella Margerita Di Morghengo UT Prize 1 -204

This makes me grin. Well done, Bella!

And Chuckar, I hope you aren't in a confined area, most rooms can only handle a head so large before spontaneous combustion occures

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:13 am

Chukar12 wrote:I truly wish I had been born wealthy instead of so good looking...I would love to have the extra time to go watch. These are fascinating dogs.

Oh fer gawd.... :roll:

Joe, If I had your money....I'd burn mine.

larue · Post by **larue** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:56 am

BellaSpinone,your post is an excellent example of diverting the topic instead of discussing it.
But as you are trying to spin my comments I will respond.I do believe in getting more interest in trials,I do not believe in limiting competition to achieve that goal.
As far as spins go,I never said they were a joke,I questioned the merits of a breed specific trial,especially a breed that has such a small number of dogs,and a breed that was breed to be a close working methodical dog.
It appears we have 2 schools of thought,one is that having a closed breed event will improve the breed through competition by allowing the dogs to go head to head within the breed.
My thoughts are you can achieve the same evaluation in an open event,while still maintaining the integrity of receiving championship points.
The question that I ask is simple,is the fc a goal or is the fc a tool to evaluate your dog?

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:09 am

My question still stands un answered. Can I run my GSP at the Vizsla Nationals? Can I run my Vizsla at the GSP Nationals? Riddle ma that!

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:11 am

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:My question still stands un answered. Can I run my GSP at the Vizsla Nationals? Can I run my Vizsla at the GSP Nationals? Riddle ma that!

KwikIrish wrote:National trials can always be held as limited to that breed- as it shoul be IMO
Hunt tests can be breed limited ONLY if they are held in conjunction with their show national.
A club can only hold a championship after they achieve entries which achieve a major for multiple year in a row, I want to say 3, might be 4... That is why the Irish walking national has only been a waking national and not a championship in years past.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:21 am

Better question is "Why would you want to?" Kind of like asking if you can run your dog in the Kentucky Derby.

Ezzy

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:30 am

That doesn't answer the question as to why this trial in question is being labeled as "closed" when every breeds national event is for that breed ONLY.

Jagerdawg · Post by **Jagerdawg** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:39 am

What is the big deal? There are lots of closed trials. Why is this one getting picked on?

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:42 am

Jagerdawg wrote:What is the big deal? There are lots of closed trials. Why is this one getting picked on?

Because the odds of a spinone winning a major at an all breed trial is almost 0.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:49 am

bb560m wrote:
Jagerdawg wrote:What is the big deal? There are lots of closed trials. Why is this one getting picked on?
Because the odds of a spinone winning a major at an all breed trial is almost 0.

SO?

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:51 am

ezzy333 wrote:
bb560m wrote:
Jagerdawg wrote:What is the big deal? There are lots of closed trials. Why is this one getting picked on?
Because the odds of a spinone winning a major at an all breed trial is almost 0.
SO?

I'm not saying it's a problem. Not all FCs are created equal and that is fine. I'm just saying I think that is where the controversy is. Personally, there is more than a title to dogs - first hand experience is key. I will never own a Spinone, but for people who do, the Spinone that wins this event can help them identify who they want to breed to, etc. No issues from me.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:58 am

MonsterDad wrote:
Winchey wrote:It would be pretty tough to have water work in North Dakota at 0 degrees. Even harder to have water work there in the ocean. There are field trials in the forests and that is pretty bold to say theyhave the best noses.
You get what I am saying. Would you put your setter in coastal water this time of year? Doubtful. As much as I love Setters, they can't swim a lick compared to a Spin, let alone in winter water.

And I wouldn't expect a Spin to enjoy running on a 95 degree day like a setter will.

There is no reason to compare such different animals in a formal competition.

I'd sure hate that Spinone coming out of the water and getting into the blind with me! lol Someone tell me, I don't know. If someone has what they call a pointing Lab, can they run it in an AKC pointing dog field trial? Of course why would thry want to?

BTW, I neither like or dislike Spinone's, I've never even seen one.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:01 am

IMO--- The club is doing ALL the work on the trial. THEY should have the choice of stakes offered and they should have the choice of closed breed, open all breed, or some stakes open to all breeds. Instead of gripping about what a club is offering, go find another club that is running a trial with openings for your breed. Or buy a pup of the breed that is allowed to run, then you can run in their trial. It kills me when people that don't do anything at the trial are always the ones who say it should be done this way or that way. The club is firnishing: workers, judges, paperwork, application fees, birds, etc---It is their trial, they should be able to do it their way

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:07 am

Well on the lighter side, I've been noticing KwikIrish's avatar photo and noticing that whoever is walking out to flush birds for the Visla has great legs!

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:10 am

DonF wrote:Well on the lighter side, I've been noticing KwikIrish's avatar photo and noticing that whoever is walking out to flush birds for the Visla has great legs!

That's a furry, bright red, vizsla...

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:12 am

Don, you either need your vision checked or need to seek psychiatric help.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:28 am

deseeker wrote:IMO--- The club is doing ALL the work on the trial. THEY should have the choice of stakes offered and they should have the choice of closed breed, open all breed, or some stakes open to all breeds. Instead of gripping about what a club is offering, go find another club that is running a trial with openings for your breed. Or buy a pup of the breed that is allowed to run, then you can run in their trial. It kills me when people that don't do anything at the trial are always the ones who say it should be done this way or that way. The club is firnishing: workers, judges, paperwork, application fees, birds, etc---It is their trial, they should be able to do it their way

I agree with everything you say. and on top of that they should be able to play the games they want to play and decide what the rules are just like other breeds have. None of us have to play the same games or with the same rules as demonstrated by the requirements of all of the other breeds which are different. The title FC is nothing more or less than an award we give to the winner and the winner is determined by who did the best at performing to the assigned rules. But the Britt's GSP's or any other set of rules should apply to their specific breed and not be a set of rules that all breeds have to conform to because there will never be a set of rules that would be fair or demonstrate what each breed is all about.

Ezzy

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:46 am

I judged my first trial in 1971, I understand that different breeds have their unique style and application. I even judged a Gordon Setter NC, but here is my confession, I have judged them all to what you would all call the pointer standard, I picked what I thought was the best bird dog. I am just not smart enogh to do otherwise. I have noticed that over the years, the V's, wheims, GSP, Irish setter. Etc. for good or bad, keep getting closer to that standard.

I mean if the goal is better dogs for hunting, how could you judge to a lessor standard?

Like I said, I am just not smart enough.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:46 am

Must be deep winter...these kinds of senseless discussions only happen when boredom has set in. Sounds like a bunch of old women "slicing and dicing" what their neighbor is doing

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:58 am

JKP wrote:Must be deep winter...these kinds of senseless discussions only happen when boredom has set in. Sounds like a bunch of old women "slicing and dicing" what their neighbor is doing

It is senseless, and the "old women" analogy certainly seems apropos...the only thing funnier is when some old lady doesn't have anything going on in her neighborhood and has to travel across town just to participate in the gossip.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:58 am

I have noticed that over the years, the V's, wheims, GSP, Irish setter. Etc. for good or bad, keep getting closer to that standard.

And this while we admit that other breeds NEVER appear at the top AA trials in the country. WHO CARES ABOUT THE POINTER STANDARD??? I don't. Inside the 200 yards (where I want my dog), there isn't enough difference between the top dogs in many breeds to make a difference (not that the "old women" wouldn't debate the details "No, the tail was only at 11:15!!!). Application, style and manners on game is what 95% of week end warriors and guys that work who have limited time to hunt...want. Oh yea, and easy to live with...and they like to see their dogs work and make game. Meanwhile, those that chase the "Pointer standard" are busy changing breed type and standard (midnight unseen breedings behind the barn included)...all to chase the Pointer standard. Forget the Pointer.....breed dogs of your breed that work the best at what the breed was bred to be and do.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:14 pm

Well I guess the only thing to do then is to make specific FC titles..... if your going to judge them to a different standard then how can you give them all the same title? shouldnt their be a BFC, GSPFC, EPFC, and so on? This is silly. I feel like if you want a title you better be willing to beat every one.

Good lord next thing you know they will be handing out participation ribbons.

Jim

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:33 pm

jimbo&rooster wrote:Well I guess the only thing to do then is to make specific FC titles..... if your going to judge them to a different standard then how can you give them all the same title? shouldnt their be a BFC, GSPFC, EPFC, and so on? This is silly. I feel like if you want a title you better be willing to beat every one.

Good lord next thing you know they will be handing out participation ribbons.

Jim

If you are going to hold all dogs to the same standards, then shouldn't all dogs retreive land and water, plus scent track mammals to get their FCs

Isn't that being the best of all hunting dogs

Different breeds have different requirements for their FCs. It's like shoes---one size does NOT fit all. :roll:
This is just my opinion

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:42 pm

This is silly. I feel like if you want a title you better be willing to beat every one.

So next we'll have NASCAR rigs racing at Monte Carlo ... so they can win a title. I guess the Quarter Horse folks better pack it in...never gonna win the Derby.

I like Budweiser, but I can also appreciate a good micro brew. C'mon Fella...lighten up

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:51 pm

fair enough.....

JeremyS · Post by **JeremyS** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:57 pm

I personally like the thought of closed breed trials, with the premise that the intent is to keep true to breed and identify the best in the breed, instead of adapting the breed to fit the game. I think any reasonable person can understand that a FC Spinone is not going to be the same as a FC Pointer. Jim, in NAVHDA it isn't how they perform to the same standard "against all comers." It is just how they perform to the standard, period. They don't care how it looks while it is doing it. As long as the work is done correctly, you pass. You can pass a dog through NAVHDA plodding through the field like a Spinone or tearing it up like the Pointer. 12 o'clock tail or 6 o'clock tail does not matter. That being said, I still like a GSP that goes out and beats the Pointers and Setters once in a while.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:02 pm

Field Champion (FC) Title

Pointing Breeds:

10 points at 3 trials, with at least 1 win of 3 points or better in:
Open All-Age
Open Gun Dog
Open Limited All-Age
Open Limited Gun Dog
No more than 2 points from puppy (Open and/or Amateur Walking)
No more than 2 points from derby (Open and/or Amateur Walking)
No more than 4 of the 10 points have been won by placing 1st in Amateur Stakes.

Exceptions:
Brittany - Must win 3 points or better in, Open Gun Dog, Open All-Age, Open Limited Gun Dog or Open Limited All-Age at a trial held by a Brittany Club.

German Shorthaired Pointer, German Wirehaired Pointer, Vizsla, or Weimaraner - Must win 4 points in retrieving stakes.

German Wirehaired Pointer or Weimaraner must pass a Water Test under 2 judges at Specialty Clubs Field Trials, Hunt Tests or Seminars.

Jim--- above is what it takes to be an AKC FC ---- you'll notice some breeds have to have retreiving points, some breeds have to have watter retreives, and britts have to have a 3 point win in britt trials. There are different standards for different breeds for a FC title. They are not all the same standards.