Weight of an FC vs AFC

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:45 am

UpNorthHuntin wrote:
What gives the handler the "PRO" designation? Is it simply because he is getting paid to handle the dog? The term "Amature" in AFC in itself refers to the Handler, not the dog. If it referred to the dog, an already titled AFC would not be allowed to run in an AFC stake. My only point is this. If I am a "true" amature, then why should I have to compete with someone who has titled 10 or 20 dogs in the past. Doesn't that in istself blur the lines in the reasoning for AFC. Isn't the AFC set up as an entry point for less experienced handlers and dogs to compete and gain experience to compete at the FC/NFC level?

The "Pro" gets the designation because they have received compensation, monetarily or otherwise, for training dogs. From the AKC;

An Amateur is a person who, during the period of two years preceding the trial has not accepted remuneration in any form for the training of a hunting dog or the handling of a dog in a field trial.
For purposes of this definition the word remuneration means payment in money, goods or services.
No member of the household of a person who does not qualify as an Amateur under this definition can qualify as an Amateur.

Also, there is no rule against running a titled AFC dog in any Am. stake.

UpNorthHuntin · Post by **UpNorthHuntin** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:57 am

Wyndancer wrote: Also, there is no rule against running a titled AFC dog in any Am. stake.

I understand that, but that is the point I make and the one thing I disagree with. If you have a Handler that runs a particular dog and titles that dog in both AFC/FC and then is allowed to run that dog in another AFC stake, doesn't that take away from the term "AFC"? And even though that handler is not receiving compensation, is he a "true" amature? If a dog wins an AFC with a true "amature" handler, and we know that that handler competed against many other handlers that could be as good as a PRO, then I would say that would be quite a feat, because the playing field is not even on the handler level. But if a very seasoned "amature" handler goes out and beats a bunch of newbies, then maybe not so much.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:09 am

Maybe the next time you win a AGD stake that has 50% finished dogs in it you know you had to beat a quality dog in order to finish. And that's how the bar gets raised, for both the handler and the dog.

I sense this "push" to not allow finished dogs to run, and yes, some are even going as far as saying no FC's in an OLGD stake. Many clubs don't offer a ALGD stake, just as many clubs don't offer an AA stake. For instance, my male is FC. I like to run him for 2 reasons, 1) I like to run him, 2) To showcase the breed. So the "gentleman's agreement" is that I don't run him in an OGD stake against unfinished dogs...Ok fine. But I'd like to run him 2x on the weekend. Seeing I've spent the money to get to the FT ($4/gal diesel - 10mpg) The club doesn't offer an ALGD stake....guess what, he's going in the AGD and the OLGD.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:13 am

Upnorth
there is ample room to argue a number of AKC rules regulations or restrictions. Lord knows ee have just been through an emotional deal in the brit ranks about just that. However in the end you have a written rule that we can ill afford to make any tighter we will not have enough handlers to make an amateur stake.

UpNorthHuntin · Post by **UpNorthHuntin** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:19 am

Wyndancer wrote: I sense this "push" to not allow finished dogs to run, and yes, some are even going as far as saying no FC's in an OLGD stake. Many clubs don't offer a ALGD stake, just as many clubs don't offer an AA stake. For instance, my male is FC. I like to run him for 2 reasons, 1) I like to run him, 2) To showcase the breed. So the "gentleman's agreement" is that I don't run him in an OGD stake against unfinished dogs...Ok fine. But I'd like to run him 2x on the weekend. Seeing I've spent the money to get to the FT ($4/gal diesel - 10mpg) The club doesn't offer an ALGD stake....guess what, he's going in the AGD and the OLGD.

I don't think there is a problem with the dog running in the stake, but if the handler is a true expert and could compete on the level of the "PRO's" then I could see some discouragement from "true amatures" who qualify to run their dogs in the AFC stake. The reason for the rule that an "amature" can not run more than three dogs that he does not own in a stake is just for that reason. But it would discourage me if I ran my dog in an AFC and the reason my dog got beat was because I was a "true amature" and we were beat because the other handler was "as good as a PRO" and I made a couple mistakes that cost my dog the title. Again, the term amature refers to the handler here, not the dog. I know this argument has been going on forever, but I just think that "Amature" should refer to more than a handler simply not getting paid...But then again, by the time a dog is ready and qualifies to run in an AFC stake, I guess none of the handlers are "true amatures".... They all have quite a bit of experience...

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:22 am

I agree with Chuckar because if I'm understading it right what they are saying is once an amateur finishes a dog he is no longer an amateur? Some trials don't hardly get enough AMT now to to make it worth while.

UpNorthHuntin · Post by **UpNorthHuntin** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:23 am

Chukar12 wrote:Upnorth
there is ample room to argue a number of AKC rules regulations or restrictions. Lord knows ee have just been through an emotional deal in the brit ranks about just that. However in the end you have a written rule that we can ill afford to make any tighter we will not have enough handlers to make an amateur stake.

I definately could see this point... However, I think you would see many more handlers willing to run their own dogs if they didn't have to compete against "PRO's" that are handling dogs as "amatures". With that being said, I imagine if I were running four or five dogs in trials, I wouldn't have the time or energy to run all of them, so I would have to have somebody else running a couple of them... I see your point though Chukar12 and agree....

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:02 am

UpNorthHuntin wrote: I don't think there is a problem with the dog running in the stake, but if the handler is a true expert and could compete on the level of the "PRO's" then I could see some discouragement from "true amatures" who qualify to run their dogs in the AFC stake. The reason for the rule that an "amature" can not run more than three dogs that he does not own in a stake is just for that reason. But it would discourage me if I ran my dog in an AFC and the reason my dog got beat was because I was a "true amature" and we were beat because the other handler was "as good as a PRO" and I made a couple mistakes that cost my dog the title. Again, the term amature refers to the handler here, not the dog. I know this argument has been going on forever, but I just think that "Amature" should refer to more than a handler simply not getting paid...But then again, by the time a dog is ready and qualifies to run in an AFC stake, I guess none of the handlers are "true amatures".... They all have quite a bit of experience...

Define "true amateur" as opposed to amateur. Will you have a skills test? A number of placements?

If you are proposing a non-regular stake, or proposing a new amateur stake, in which neither a handler or dog can have a placement (maybe a win) then contact AKC and make the proposal.

IMO the reason an amateur can only run three non-owned dogs is to prevent the Pro-Am that travels with a "Pro" and would run a vast number of client dogs in the amateur stake. It's not a three dog limit because somebody may be a better handler than others. The fastest path to an FC is 2 points from Open Puppy, 2 points from Open Derby, a 3 point Open win and a 3 point Amateur win. Do you see why the 3 dog non-owned amateur rule is in effect?

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:02 am

Wyndancer wrote:Maybe the next time you win a AGD stake that has 50% finished dogs in it you know you had to beat a quality dog in order to finish. And that's how the bar gets raised, for both the handler and the dog.

I sense this "push" to not allow finished dogs to run, and yes, some are even going as far as saying no FC's in an OLGD stake. Many clubs don't offer a ALGD stake, just as many clubs don't offer an AA stake. For instance, my male is FC. I like to run him for 2 reasons, 1) I like to run him, 2) To showcase the breed.

S
o the "gentleman's agreement" is that I don'tdon't run him in an OGD stake against unfinished dogs...Ok fine. But I'd like to run him 2x on the weekend. Seeing I've spent the money to get to the FT ($4/gal diesel - 10mpg) The club doesn't offer an ALGD stake....guess what, he's going in the AGD and the OLGD.

I agree here Dan. Its your dime, and the club should be grateful for the entries. Especially with numbers declining in some areas. If the other competitors don't like it because they are afraid of losing, then its time to do some more work with their dog. It gets annoying when people rather then make themselves or their dogs better they try to limit the competition..

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:33 am

silverfoxPA wrote:I believe I read all the replies and nobody mentioned that to win a AFC title, the dog must win 2 times,one being a 3 point major or better and the required 10 points. FC title is only one major win and of course have 10 points.

Well, that's because you only get points from wins in Open (except for a 2nd in a 25+ dog stake). In amateur you can get points clear down to placing 3rd in a 25+ dog stake. So having to have 2 wins, one of which must be a major, isn't really unfair.

Let's compare to Open, all points are from wins....except if you get 2nd in a 25 dogs and over Open stake. Then you get 2 points for the second. So let's run the math.

Let's go with a 5 point Open win....leaves you needing 5 points. Well you won a 8 dog Open Puppy stake. That gives you 7 points...needing 3. And you also won a 8 dog Open Derby. Well, now you have 9 points....needing 1 point. And then you went 2nd in a 25+ Open Gun Dog or Open AA stake. Congrats, that's 2 points. and now you have 11 points.

But notice how many wins you needed? You needed the OP win, the OD win and a OGD win (or OAA win). That's 4 wins. Even if you go without juvenile points, you still have to win 3x...two 5 point wins in one weekend don't work...note this from the AKC.

in at least three licensed or member field trials,

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:05 am

Wyndancer wrote:Maybe the next time you win a AGD stake that has 50% finished dogs in it you know you had to beat a quality dog in order to finish. And that's how the bar gets raised, for both the handler and the dog.

I sense this "push" to not allow finished dogs to run, and yes, some are even going as far as saying no FC's in an OLGD stake. Many clubs don't offer a ALGD stake, just as many clubs don't offer an AA stake. For instance, my male is FC. I like to run him for 2 reasons, 1) I like to run him, 2) To showcase the breed. So the "gentleman's agreement" is that I don't run him in an OGD stake against unfinished dogs...Ok fine. But I'd like to run him 2x on the weekend. Seeing I've spent the money to get to the FT ($4/gal diesel - 10mpg) The club doesn't offer an ALGD stake....guess what, he's going in the AGD and the OLGD.

Fortunately for the dogs there are no "minor league" titles in Field Trialing. As much as many want to push for a minor league I really hope the status quo remains and those who simply want an "easy" title can sit at home and moan about how the system is rigged etc. In the meantime we will continue to have worthy dogs getting titles to showcase the BEST the breed/s have to offer.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:33 am

Guys -

The folks that whine and complain about "too much " competition, and who work to "dumb down" the competition by limiting which dogs may compete in certain stakes...need to be running in hunt tests.

Field trials are a competition where the best three or four dogs win. Period...end of story.

Anything less is not worth doing, because it ain't about the dogs.

FWIW, I compete in AF and AKC stakes in DE/NJ/PA. I routinely compete against dogs, run by their amateur owners, who are also trained and campaigned by some of THE most successful AF shooting dog field trial trainers and handlers in the country. I do also occasionally compete directly agiainst those pro trainers and their dogs. I don't whine and complain. I put on my big boy pants, hitch up my drawers and go do the best I can. If I get me butt kicked...I go back and train some more because I learned what more I need to do.

If you think you got it rough where you are, try this....

Try competing, like I usually do, with dogs, run by their amateur owners that have been trained and handled by a man who has been the shooting dog handler of the year for more years than you have fingers and whose Dad has been shooting dog handler of the year for more years than you have fingers and toes. And then there is the sister/daughter of those gents, their cousin who recently switched to all age, their uncle and a bunch of pros and amateurs who have been going head to head with those same folks and their dogs for...literally decades.

Do I get my butt kicked? Yeah...regularly. But my dogs and I have had our moments.

Whining and complaining and attempting to limit the competition...is for LOSERS. It is about the people...not the dogs. It is not about finding the best dogs and it is not about improving the breeds.

I have found that when it is about the dogs...it is almost always right and when it is about the people...it is often wrong.

RayG

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:37 pm

Well said Ray!!!

Field Trialing is a competitive venue that gets tougher and tougher with each passing year, better dogs and more skilled handlers.

This isnt soccer for 5 year old kids where everyone gets a trophy.

UpNorthHuntin · Post by **UpNorthHuntin** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:54 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Guys -

The folks that whine and complain about "too much " competition, and who work to "dumb down" the competition by limiting which dogs may compete in certain stakes...need to be running in hunt tests.

RayG

I'm not whining, I haven't even been in a trial, although I will this spring. But if I hire a professional trainer to train my dog, and he is actually a trialer as well, does that disqualify him from running my dog in trials because he received payment for the training...Even if I'm not paying him to run the trials. All I'm saying is let's call it what it is. How many people on this post have stated tht they feel an Amature Field Championship Title means more to them than a FC title. How is that even possible? Many have said that the competition is harder??? How is that possible? If it truly were an "Amature Field Champion" trial there would be no comparison and we wouldn't be having this discussion at all. I'm not concerened about the competition, won't be the first time I've had my butt whipped in a competition if my dog proves to be good enough to even make it to that level. I simply think that it would grow the sport more if the competition at the "amature" level were a little more even. I'm talking handlers only here, obviously the dogs would be on a different level...

UpNorthHuntin · Post by **UpNorthHuntin** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:57 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Guys -

Field trials are a competition where the best three or four dogs win. Period...end of story.

Anything less is not worth doing, because it ain't about the dogs.

RayG

How the heck can it "not be about the dogs??? Is the handler the one wearing the title??? I don't get that one???

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:08 pm

UpNorthHuntin wrote:
I'm not whining, I haven't even been in a trial, although I will this spring. But if I hire a professional trainer to train my dog, and he is actually a trialer as well, does that disqualify him from running my dog in trials because he received payment for the training...Even if I'm not paying him to run the trials.

Yes that disqualifies him from running your or any dog in amateur stakes. He can run it in open stakes if you wanted him to.

Your entire post seems a little off, so you think an "amateur" with a lot of experience shouldn't be able to run amateur stakes because it makes it hard for newer people? Please correct me if I mis read.

UpNorthHuntin · Post by **UpNorthHuntin** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:13 pm

ACooper wrote:
UpNorthHuntin wrote:
I'm not whining, I haven't even been in a trial, although I will this spring. But if I hire a professional trainer to train my dog, and he is actually a trialer as well, does that disqualify him from running my dog in trials because he received payment for the training...Even if I'm not paying him to run the trials.
Yes that disqualifies him from running your or any dog in amateur stakes. He can run it in open stakes if you wanted him to.

Your entire post seems a little off, so you think an "amateur" with a lot of experience shouldn't be able to run amateur stakes because it makes it hard for newer people? Please correct me of I miss read.

Not necessarily. However, if a person has titled many dogs and the only reason he is considered an "amture" is because he is not getting paid, is the competition at the "amature" stake really fair to someone with much less experience. If somebody has been running trials for say 15-20 years, but has simply never been paid for the trials, is he/she really still an amature. It just seems like there may be a lot of people out there that would choose to run their own dogs in the trials if there was a snowball's chance in @#$$ they could win, but it would be pretty difficult to beat somebody with 15-20 years experience that still calls themselves an "amature".

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:32 pm

UpNorthHuntin wrote:
Not necessarily. However, if a person has titled many dogs and the only reason he is considered an "amture" is because he is not getting paid, is the competition at the "amature" stake really fair to someone with much less experience. If somebody has been running trials for say 15-20 years, but has simply never been paid for the trials, is he/she really still an amature. It just seems like there may be a lot of people out there that would choose to run their own dogs in the trials if there was a snowball's chance in @#$$ they could win, but it would be pretty difficult to beat somebody with 15-20 years experience that still calls themselves an "amature".

Except that it has little to do with you and more to do with your dog. It really isn't that difficult to learn what you as a handler has to do to get your dog around - the worst thing that most new handlers I see have is an attitude that they know how it is done and their dog is great. Go to some trials, enter your dog, and ride every brace. Keep an open and honest mind, watch the fellows with the experience and see what they are doing. Stick around for the placements and then go over what those dogs did (and maybe those handlers, but really, it is mostly what those dogs did) compared with what the other dogs did and then see if there is a possibility that you as a handler can get your dog to do what those dogs did. Then go out and do it - but remember that what wins one day may not be exactly the same as what wins another day.
In the end, it is more about the quality of the dog than the quality of the handler as long as the handler is savvy enough to not screw the dog over.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:07 pm

I am pretty green, but handling does have a lot to do with it, the pros simply do not screw up. Inexperience can cost you a placement. There are amateurs that are pro caliber.
Anyways the biggest difference I have seen between amateur and open championships in my limited experience is the judging. The judging in the amateur seems to be a little more forgiving of the handlers fumbles.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:27 pm

up north,
If you can keep your dog broke in your standard 30 minute run of the mill amateur gun dog stake at an akc Brittany club trial...especially a walking one...and the dog has talent you will garner placements. I realize it's a leap of faith to believe that but it's true. That is not to say that you can't screw it up...you can but there is always next time and the odds are if you can get through clean and the dog runs to the front you are going to catch a ray of light.

When you start entering limited stakes , hour stakes, etc... The handler has a lot more influence and in some instances like AA the scout may...but there is lots of time for you to figure that out .... Anybody that can handle a dog cleanly that they trained or their pro trained as a team has a chance in an amateur stake. The learning curve has no end...I started this three years ago the trialing part and I learn something everytime I watch, scout or run.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:40 pm

Guys -

An amateur is an amateur if they meet the requirements, especially if they do not accept money for training or handling dogs that are not their own.

Are some amateurs on a par with the pros? ABSOLUTELY! So what? They are on par with the pros mostly because they LOVE what they are doing.

Look up the Webster's definition of the term amateur sometime.

EVERYBODY and I do mean EVERYBODY who starts out in field trialing is going to get their clock cleaned, on a rather consistent basis at first. There is a learning curve.

This is not a sport like baseball where you can start out in teeball, work up through little league, high school and college ball, then A, AA and AAA ball before going to the majors.

You get thrown in with the lions, so you had better believe you are gonna get chewed on some. That is the way that it is. It is not all that complex or complicated, but there are things you gotta learn. Until you do, you are not going to be able to show your dog to their best advantage.

Lots of folks get into field trialing, thinking that because they have a nice dog, they should win. It don't quite work that way, mostly because everybody else that is there...also has a nice dog and came to win too. Nobody pays an entry fee, shows up at a trial and come to the line with the intention of losing. EVERYBODY thinks they have a shot at winning, even if it is a small chance...if they didn't, they would not have paid the entry fee.

One thing that separates the true amateur field trialer from those in most other sports that I know of is, their willingness to help someone beat them. I cannot tell you how many times I have run a dog without a scout and have had to ask for help from the gallery. I can't tell you how many times a fellow who ran in one of the braces preceding mine, and whose dog put down a great, possibly winning, performance, called out and said, "I'll go" and then rode off at a gallop to try and find my dog....and DID.

It is actually fairly common in my area for an amateur field trialer to put themselves out there for their fellow competitors and do what it takes to show the other fellows dog at its best...even if that means they and their dog get beat.

RayG

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:50 pm

Upnorth anyone that takes money to train dogs is considered a pro whether or not they have even run in trials before it doesn't mean if they charge you for running in trials.Some trainers charge extra
for running your dog in a trial some don't.If a pro quits taking money for I think it's 2 yrs then they can get Amateur status again it's the money that makes him a pro not the experience though if he is
a pro handler he better be good at what he does or he won't stay a pro for long.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:09 pm

I am an amateur and only have been in the sport for two years. My dog finished her FC intthe first six months, finished her AFC within the next 6 months.

Are you telling me I have a two year old dog that should only be run in open limited and that's it? I work her hard and a lot more than most dogs get worked. I think being a guy who shows up, handles his own dog, handles with his head up his butt, and runs to finish first , Im not going to limit the stakes I enter in except to fit my schedule or the dogs well being. If I can beat a pro, beat a expierenced amateur, etc .... That's a win. No one said "well your new so were not going to run our DC AFC or NAFC against you" you have to train to win.

Brooks Carmichael · Post by **Brooks Carmichael** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 8:11 pm

ultracarry wrote:I am an amateur and only have been in the sport for two years. My dog finished her FC intthe first six months, finished her AFC within the next 6 months.

Are you telling me I have a two year old dog that should only be run in open limited and that's it? I work her hard and a lot more than most dogs get worked. I think being a guy who shows up, handles his own dog, handles with his head up his butt, and runs to finish first , Im not going to limit the stakes I enter in except to fit my schedule or the dogs well being. If I can beat a pro, beat a expierenced amateur, etc .... That's a win. No one said "well your new so were not going to run our DC AFC or NAFC against you" you have to train to win.

You can run in what ever stakes you are qualified for, nobody is telling you not to. But, it has been common courtesy among most field trialer's to run only in limited stakes after the the dog has its FC. That way other dogs have a chance to get their AFC or FC. I know some that run in every stake they can so they can get dog of the year either in open stakes or Amateur stakes. I do not have a problem with that if that fits your fancy. I say more power to them.

There are those of us who after they have their FC. only have there dogs run in Limited stakes or NGSPA championships. That is something you might want to consider. These stakes are 1 hour long require a lot more out of a dog. Especially wild bird ones.

Another thing a Amateur with a good dog can beat the pros more then most people think. They have only one dog to train and work every day where a pro has 20 or more dogs to work. It seems you are proving my point on this subject with your dog.

Sounds like you need to take your dog to the nationals in Eureka and run her in both the open and Amateur gun dog stakes

I know, I am off the subject a little bit, but was answering your post.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:03 pm

Sounds like you need to take your dog to the nationals in Eureka and run her in both the open and Amateur gun dog stakes

I keep telling him to run her in AF stuff out here. She'd be competitive.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:31 pm

Sounds like what some people are asking for is a stake similar to Novice in Obedience.

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:42 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Guys -

The folks that whine and complain about "too much " competition, and who work to "dumb down" the competition by limiting which dogs may compete in certain stakes...need to be running in hunt tests.

Field trials are a competition where the best three or four dogs win. Period...end of story.

Anything less is not worth doing, because it ain't about the dogs.

FWIW, I compete in AF and AKC stakes in DE/NJ/PA. I routinely compete against dogs, run by their amateur owners, who are also trained and campaigned by some of THE most successful AF shooting dog field trial trainers and handlers in the country. I do also occasionally compete directly agiainst those pro trainers and their dogs. I don't whine and complain. I put on my big boy pants, hitch up my drawers and go do the best I can. If I get me butt kicked...I go back and train some more because I learned what more I need to do.

If you think you got it rough where you are, try this....

Try competing, like I usually do, with dogs, run by their amateur owners that have been trained and handled by a man who has been the shooting dog handler of the year for more years than you have fingers and whose Dad has been shooting dog handler of the year for more years than you have fingers and toes. And then there is the sister/daughter of those gents, their cousin who recently switched to all age, their uncle and a bunch of pros and amateurs who have been going head to head with those same folks and their dogs for...literally decades.

Do I get my butt kicked? Yeah...regularly. But my dogs and I have had our moments.

Whining and complaining and attempting to limit the competition...is for LOSERS. It is about the people...not the dogs. It is not about finding the best dogs and it is not about improving the breeds.

I have found that when it is about the dogs...it is almost always right and when it is about the people...it is often wrong.

RayG

Well said; my feelings exactly.

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:08 pm

No what they are wanting are stakes for special olympians of dogdom,No finished dogs in the open and amateur stakes.There is no way to judge the true ability of the dog if they can't beat a finished one.There's lots of 8-10 year old dogs around here that have trialed the whole time and have one placement,those dogs have had to run against finished dogs in the open stakes and the limited stakes,if the open stakes were closed to finished dogs your going to have good FC's and bad F'cs,same for the afc's. The dog is supposed to be the object being judged not the handler.The limited stakes are all fine and dandy but it's not like you get anything out of it other than generating fund money for the hosting club and of course the akc.There's no multi pass designation which would be a pretty good indicator of how good the dog is as far as consistancy and performance from a potential breeding to improve practice.

.

Cajun Casey wrote:Sounds like what some people are asking for is a stake similar to Novice in Obedience.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:30 pm

Pros Can screw up handling other peoples dogs more than the owner would if the owner took the time to learn how to handle the dog themselves. Amatuer status means that a person hasn't taken compensation to train or handle dogs within the past 2 years. I personally have never been compensated which makes me an amateur. If I'm good with dogs and get placements on my own dime, why would I be excluded from amateur class? Heck, I spend thousands of dollars per year competing and I run other peoples dogs just for fun. I have a high percentage of placements in trials and I handle dogs for pro's in the amateur stakes but I do it on my own dime so what about that is not amateur? Skill level has nothing to do with it. There are alot of amateurs who can out handle and train the "pro's" but they Remain amateure's because it's fun, and not a JOB.

The dogs can not be pro or amateur, they are what they are and what the handler is presenting to the judges on that day.

UpNorthHuntin · Post by **UpNorthHuntin** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:03 am

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Pros Can screw up handling other peoples dogs more than the owner would if the owner took the time to learn how to handle the dog themselves. Amatuer status means that a person hasn't taken compensation to train or handle dogs within the past 2 years. I personally have never been compensated which makes me an amateur. If I'm good with dogs and get placements on my own dime, why would I be excluded from amateur class?

The dogs can not be pro or amateur, they are what they are and what the handler is presenting to the judges on that day.

Thanks to all for all the advice here. I'm not really advocating one way or the other, but if it is the dog being judged, and the biggest thing I need to worry about is finishing the dog as best I can and then just not screwing him up during a trial then I'm "all-in." Since I'm very new to this I am just simply trying to put my expectations into perspective. I've got a long way ahead of me, I know, but I'm pretty excited about taking my pup as far as he can go.... Thanks again for the advice...

doco · Post by **doco** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:10 am

RayGubernat wrote: You get thrown in with the lions, so you had better believe you are gonna get chewed on some. That is the way that it is. It is not all that complex or complicated, but there are things you gotta learn. Until you do, you are not going to be able to show your dog to their best advantage.

One thing that separates the true amateur field trialer from those in most other sports that I know of is, their willingness to help someone beat them. I cannot tell you how many times I have run a dog without a scout and have had to ask for help from the gallery. I can't tell you how many times a fellow who ran in one of the braces preceding mine, and whose dog put down a great, possibly winning, performance, called out and said, "I'll go" and then rode off at a gallop to try and find my dog....and DID.

It is actually fairly common in my area for an amateur field trialer to put themselves out there for their fellow competitors and do what it takes to show the other fellows dog at its best...even if that means they and their dog get beat.

RayG

To expand on Ray's info..........There is a huge learning curve as a handler. The best advice I can give you in starting out is also to go to trials and ride. Go socialize with the people on the grounds. Go to the Dinners. Be a part of the whole weekend experience. Introduce yourself to the people there.

Now for the most important stuff.........Keep your mouth shut and your opinions to yourself. Be humble, don't talk about how great YOUR dog is or how bad someone else's dog is! Offer to help. Talk to people on the grounds, make friends with them, ride with them and let them know you're new. YOU need a MENTOR. YOU need someone to HELP you. YOU need to LEARN as much as you can. Then when you start runnning and handling your dog, these same people that Ray is talking about above will be there for you every week.

I have 1 training Mentor that doesn't trial anymore and a huge amount of Handling and Trialing Mentors because of all of the above. I started with my pants around my ankles and now they are probably about knee high. As everyone that trials will probably agree with me, almost EVERY time we run a dog a new situation arises either from the the dogs perspective or ours and each time we come back scrutinizing our perfomance and not the dogs. We are the weak link in the equation.

Once you have an idea what is going on, and feel comfortable, you'll blow that whistle to send your dog on its first stake and you'll get nervous, shake, vapor lock, and go back to the car wondering "What the heck just happened out there?". That is when you learn and you new found friends will help you. This is not to scare you, because even the pro's go back to the trailer thinging the same thing.

With the help of many you'll see that there are more good people out there willing to help you than hang you. BEWARE, it is addicting and you'll meet some the best people in the game. These are the ones that help you and you look forward to calling and seeing on the weekends. Again, a little off thread but to bring it home, that's how I have Trained, Handled and Titled my dogs by myself...."with a lot of help from my FRIENDS".

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:35 pm

^^^That is one great post^^^^

Thanks for typing it out.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:33 am

doco wrote:
RayGubernat wrote: You get thrown in with the lions, so you had better believe you are gonna get chewed on some. That is the way that it is. It is not all that complex or complicated, but there are things you gotta learn. Until you do, you are not going to be able to show your dog to their best advantage.

One thing that separates the true amateur field trialer from those in most other sports that I know of is, their willingness to help someone beat them. I cannot tell you how many times I have run a dog without a scout and have had to ask for help from the gallery. I can't tell you how many times a fellow who ran in one of the braces preceding mine, and whose dog put down a great, possibly winning, performance, called out and said, "I'll go" and then rode off at a gallop to try and find my dog....and DID.

It is actually fairly common in my area for an amateur field trialer to put themselves out there for their fellow competitors and do what it takes to show the other fellows dog at its best...even if that means they and their dog get beat.

RayG
To expand on Ray's info..........There is a huge learning curve as a handler. The best advice I can give you in starting out is also to go to trials and ride. Go socialize with the people on the grounds. Go to the Dinners. Be a part of the whole weekend experience. Introduce yourself to the people there.

Now for the most important stuff.........Keep your mouth shut and your opinions to yourself. Be humble, don't talk about how great YOUR dog is or how bad someone else's dog is! Offer to help. Talk to people on the grounds, make friends with them, ride with them and let them know you're new. YOU need a MENTOR. YOU need someone to HELP you. YOU need to LEARN as much as you can. Then when you start runnning and handling your dog, these same people that Ray is talking about above will be there for you every week.

I have 1 training Mentor that doesn't trial anymore and a huge amount of Handling and Trialing Mentors because of all of the above. I started with my pants around my ankles and now they are probably about knee high. As everyone that trials will probably agree with me, almost EVERY time we run a dog a new situation arises either from the the dogs perspective or ours and each time we come back scrutinizing our perfomance and not the dogs. We are the weak link in the equation.

Once you have an idea what is going on, and feel comfortable, you'll blow that whistle to send your dog on its first stake and you'll get nervous, shake, vapor lock, and go back to the car wondering "What the heck just happened out there?". That is when you learn and you new found friends will help you. This is not to scare you, because even the pro's go back to the trailer thinging the same thing.

With the help of many you'll see that there are more good people out there willing to help you than hang you. BEWARE, it is addicting and you'll meet some the best people in the game. These are the ones that help you and you look forward to calling and seeing on the weekends. Again, a little off thread but to bring it home, that's how I have Trained, Handled and Titled my dogs by myself...."with a lot of help from my FRIENDS".

Well said, The Pros are also willing to help.

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:16 am

I agree with that 100%. The second time I handled my dog in AAA I had one of the most successful Brit Amateurs offer to scout for me and help me out. Afterwards he gave me some pointers and gave me a very good critic. 90% of the trial people are some of the greatest people you will ever meet. And having people to help you out will help you learn much faster. I went from being totally out of my league and just hoping to get around, to being reasonably comfortable with my dog and actually even a little competitive, in just a few trials... Or maybe just lucky. Not sure which one! Haha

millerms06 · Post by **millerms06** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:47 am

original mngsp wrote:Just like looking at titles on a pedigree, there is more to this equation than just a title.

Look at each dog as an individual. Its life history, it's owner(s) history, where and how it achieved the titles, etc.

As a big umbrella statement the FC carries more water as by earning the FC that dog has defeated all competitors, not just ones in stakes handled by amateurs. That being said, look past just what the title is.

Back to the original poster's question, which sounds like a breeding question? From a buyer's perspective, I recently followed what mngsp said. After milling around looking at pedigrees for my newest pup, I tried contacting the owners of some of the frequented dogs in the pedigrees. After that, I asked the same questions about the breeding pair. I specifically said I was looking for historical background as I was conducting only research on dogs within the breed. I was mainly interested on what they saw in that little pup when it was mingling around all of its littermates that made them say "I am definitely keeping this one." I was also interested in the puppy's developments from 2-6 months that confirmed their selection was accurate. While I did get some answers, I did have some guys answering "I have these accomplishments with my dogs and that is that", "You need to buy a puppy from my kennel because I breed for these traits." I was hoping I would get answers to my question about THE DOG, it more or less felt like some of the answers had to deal with OWNER INVOLVEMENT which is fine in its own right.

In my situation, I did not care whether or not a dog has a FC or AFC on their name in a pedigree. Whether amateur or professional, I realize that it takes a great deal of dedication, time, and money to campaign dogs because I lived with a father that does just that. But in all fairness, all of that accolade is important to the owner of that dog and not the dog itself. Even the very inception of running after such accolade is by the owner not the dog. Both titles carry some weight but it is the first six months of that specific dog that carries a heavier weight in my eyes. In a no nonsense approach to the original question, what characteristics were dominant during the first six months sets the tone for what kind of dog it will be and what it genetically carries from its ancestors. What the owner does with that dog to hopefully retain those qualities is the second part of the answer. Even then having an FC or AFC makes no difference because it is the owner's decision to campaign a dog because he feels such titles and arena are important. At this point in time, if the parent is specifically a hunting dog I can be just as confident buying a pup from that breeder after talking with them like I would with a breeder who has a FC, AFC, or both on a dog. I am by no means disrespecting the idea of trialing a dog or the titles associated with a trialed dog. I am merely saying one or the other makes no difference to me, who is a buyer, because I do not base my decision to purchase on just that.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:42 pm

Unless you can see both hunting parents extensively in the field, you have to take the breeders word for how good they are.

Whereas with a FC or AFC, you are assured 6 or more judges thought they had value.

Many breeders have no idea of what makes a good dog.

P&PGunsmith · Post by **P&PGunsmith** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:45 pm

To me a dog that is being run by a true amateur, trained by the same amateur and can get his AFC being run by the same amateur is pretty impressive. While the amateur may be a great trainer, more than likely he or she is a working person who trains there dogs after work and on the weekends. The dog has to be very biddable and to me special to be able to put up with said amateur probabably not working that dog every day.

An AFC picked up by an amateur whos dogs are professionally trained is still a great feat. It still takes a lot of time to get there but he has someone working that dog every day. I just watched a local trainer who is training his clients already FC dogs and she is trying for the amateur. While she took the dog out with him watching, i gaurentee she was going through the same motions as he would on an everyday basis.

With an FC you could have a dog that is maybe not as biddable but the trainer is good enough to get the FC regardless, just by trainers ability. I am certainly not taking anything away from that dog because none of these scenarios are easy. Now that i have played a little i am much more impressed by a dog that can get any of those titles. it just plain takes hard work. The dogs that do this and go hunting with there owners even more so.

The pup i just bought came from a male dog that has FC/AFC, MH and soon NSTRA Ch and is supposed to be quite a wild chukar hunter. This from just a working guy and his dog. I hope some of that rubs off on his offspring.

Brooks Carmichael · Post by **Brooks Carmichael** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:07 pm

Just food for thought. There is all this talk about Professionally trained vs Amateur trained. I know of lot of those who are pro trainers now started out as Amateurs. They trained there own dogs, won with them in both Amateur stakes and open stakes. Then one day they decided to quit their regular jobs and become pro trainers. Bob Deitering worked for Inland Power and Light as a lineman. Dave McGinnis was butcher before he quit and became a pro trainer. The list goes on and on. I know the above are deceased but none of them started out has pro trainers. I am willing to bet there is lot out there right now that are pros started as amateurs and decided to start getting paid for what they love best.

As I have said before AF vs FC their is not much difference in the title but among the FT world they look at the FC as more prestigious. Example which has greater standing the NAFC or NFC title. I be willing bet most would trade that NAFC any day for that NAFC title. Remember I said most.

millerms06 · Post by **millerms06** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:41 pm

Neil wrote:Unless you can see both hunting parents extensively in the field, you have to take the breeders word for how good they are.

Whereas with a FC or AFC, you are assured 6 or more judges thought they had value.

Many breeders have no idea of what makes a good dog.

I know of many breeders who serve as judges in field trials. If you believe many breeders have no idea what makes a good dog, then to me you are also suggesting some of those judges singularly do not either? Or perhaps you are suggesting none of the judges in trials do not fit your generalized characteristic of the many breeders you are basing your claim? In short, too much doubt for such a comment to be taken seriously.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:23 pm

millerms06 wrote:
Neil wrote:Unless you can see both hunting parents extensively in the field, you have to take the breeders word for how good they are.

Whereas with a FC or AFC, you are assured 6 or more judges thought they had value.

Many breeders have no idea of what makes a good dog.

I know of many breeders who serve as judges in field trials. If you believe many breeders have no idea what makes a good dog, then to me you are also suggesting some of those judges singularly do not either? Or perhaps you are suggesting none of the judges in trials do not fit your generalized characteristic of the many breeders you are basing your claim? In short, too much doubt for such a comment to be taken seriously.

Talk about reaching. :roll:

millerms06 · Post by **millerms06** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:50 pm

brad27 wrote: Talk about reaching. :roll:

I disagree. My comment brings up questions and I was merely suggesting those questions. I am reaching nowhere except for an explanation to a fairly open and broad set of comments which I deem a fair thing to seek. In other circle's, like philosophy, this would be an example of "playing devil's advocate." Not to be disrespectful, but I do believe you are too quick to judge.

millerms06 wrote:
Neil wrote:Unless you can see both hunting parents extensively in the field, you have to take the breeders word for how good they are.

Whereas with a FC or AFC, you are assured 6 or more judges thought they had value.

Many breeders have no idea of what makes a good dog.

I know of many breeders who serve as judges in field trials. If you believe many breeders have no idea what makes a good dog, then to me you are also suggesting some of those judges singularly do not either? Or perhaps you are suggesting none of the judges in trials do not fit your generalized characteristic of the many breeders you are basing your claim? In short, too much doubt for such a comment to be taken seriously.

.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:01 pm

"Many breeders" does not mean most, there are a good number of breeders that know a great deal about dogs, some of them judge. Their opinions and those that extensively hunt I trust. My only point, a title is more than a sales pitch

millerms06 · Post by **millerms06** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:07 pm

Neil wrote:"Many breeders" does not mean most, there are a good number of breeders that know a great deal about dogs, some of them judge. Their opinions and those that extensively hunt I trust. My only point, a title is more than a sales pitch

Thanks Neil, I appreciate your response.

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:00 pm

Brooks Carmichael wrote:
ultracarry wrote:I am an amateur and only have been in the sport for two years. My dog finished her FC intthe first six months, finished her AFC within the next 6 months.

Are you telling me I have a two year old dog that should only be run in open limited and that's it? I work her hard and a lot more than most dogs get worked. I think being a guy who shows up, handles his own dog, handles with his head up his butt, and runs to finish first , Im not going to limit the stakes I enter in except to fit my schedule or the dogs well being. If I can beat a pro, beat a expierenced amateur, etc .... That's a win. No one said "well your new so were not going to run our DC AFC or NAFC against you" you have to train to win.
You can run in what ever stakes you are qualified for, nobody is telling you not to. But, it has been common courtesy among most field trialer's to run only in limited stakes after the the dog has its FC. That way other dogs have a chance to get their AFC or FC. I know some that run in every stake they can so they can get dog of the year either in open stakes or Amateur stakes. I do not have a problem with that if that fits your fancy. I say more power to them.

There are those of us who after they have their FC. only have there dogs run in Limited stakes or NGSPA championships. That is something you might want to consider. These stakes are 1 hour long require a lot more out of a dog. Especially wild bird ones.

Another thing a Amateur with a good dog can beat the pros more then most people think. They have only one dog to train and work every day where a pro has 20 or more dogs to work. It seems you are proving my point on this subject with your dog.

Sounds like you need to take your dog to the nationals in Eureka and run her in both the open and Amateur gun dog stakes

I know, I am off the subject a little bit, but was answering your post.

It's funny that you say this. When I had Kona with the Tracy's, Mike told me that Gerald you to say that the most important guy to watch out for at a trial was the guy who pulled in with one dog box in the back. That dog has had all his attention and has been worked to the fullest.

I don't agree with an amature should not be an Amature if they have won a few titles. I have not finished a dog out with a title as of yet but when I do, I want to know that I did it running against the very best that trialing has to offer. The handler in some cases can cause a loss. I have seen it a few times, but it is mostly because they can't take guidance when it is given. If you show up with a dog that can put it down, runs like the wind, and looks great doing it, you will have a dog that is hard to beat. No matter who is on the horse behind it.

Ray, as usual has some great points. I have watched his dogs down and he should take great pride in what he has done with those beasts. On the AF side of the fence here in the northeast as I am sure in other parts of the country, most the dogs running came into the championship just being run by a Tracy, or a Basalone. It is the owner handling them but they spend there entire life on one of those trucks running open stakes. If you can show up there and run against those dogs, my hats off to you. That is a heck of an accomplishment. There are several out here that do just that.

The amount of time and money that is put into getting a dog to either title is a great accomplishment. I will count myself lucky if I can gain either of these titles with a dog of mine. No complaining, just pull up your boots and go give it a shot. If either title was easy to win, every dog and owner would have at least one.

Joe