keg creek cooper breed to hanshaws out on bail

[campgsp]

I no Cally is a e carrier coopers not

This answer #1

You can't go back in the line and black list because you'll never know which dogs and it wouldn't solve the present issue anyhow. The only thing we can do is stop it when we see it. And that's all we can do. Keeping the lines straight is our job when we produce a litter. Its all about the breeds and dogs that we love them so much isn't it.

Hanshaw I just want you to know that I never meant to put you down in any way, and I don't think any one else is trying to either. . I just felt that you are seeing in grey and not the big picture. I get you have an outstanding dog there and all you want is to get some more outstanding pups from her. But the right thing to do man is not breed her for the benefit of the breed and the people who may end up with one of the pups in a pedigree down the road. I'm not telling you what to do I'm just suggesting. I know I know its only a color issue but hey man its not the right color. Plain and simple.

I'm honestly sorry this has happened to your awesome dog and you.

[jasonw99]

there are many other people who dont have the same opinions you do when it comes to color, Black specifically. So before placing judgement on someone you should look in the mirror. I can care less what color the dog is... its not my dog and it doesnt directly impact me.

Jason , It 's folks like you that beleive in dishonesty in reg., dishonesty in breeding and most of all denial .. All for what!!! To beat the next guy, To thump your chest . But how did you get there, through dishonesty. There are even more who would like to ctlsoof those that produce the small e and parade the lemon and white as a German shorthair.
There are folks who are proud to to own a shorthair for what they were meant. not for what some trialer chooses to turn the breed into for there own selfish benifit.
It was the DK brought into this country and named the GSP not a GSP/EP cross.

WOW I am dishonest because i dont care what color someone elses dog is??? I am dishonest because i wont breed black shorthairs? Tell me how does that make me dishonest? I have never said anything about my own personal dogs.. I just dont think you should be calling people out because they have a dog you dont feel he should breed. If that makes me dishonest than wow i guesss i learn something new everyday........

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I wouldn't call the color a "defect" by any means As a hunter but it is a fault with current breed standards and I would think that by campaigning, you would hurt your reputation as a breeder more than the title could make up for. We know for a fact that EP's were used to develop GSP's and we know that breeders went back to EP's to strengthen their line. It wasn't uncommon before DNA testing came along for breeders to do such things. I feel that this color gene isn't from the days of developing the breed, it is much more recent than that. Would I do it? No but if people didn't do it years ago then we wouldn't have the various breeds to get on here and brag about or argue which is best. They are afterall 99.8% related so do your best in breeding and enjoy your dog. The world isn't ending over a lemon colored dog.

[ezzy333]

I wouldn't call the color a "defect" by any means As a hunter but it is a fault with current breed standards and I would think that by campaigning, you would hurt your reputation as a breeder more than the title could make up for. We know for a fact that EP's were used to develop GSP's and we know that breeders went back to EP's to strengthen their line. It wasn't uncommon before DNA testing came along for breeders to do such things. I feel that this color gene isn't from the days of developing the breed, it is much more recent than that. Would I do it? No but if people didn't do it years ago then we wouldn't have the various breeds to get on here and brag about or argue which is best. They are after all 99.8% related so do your best in breeding and enjoy your dog. The world isn't ending over a lemon colored dog.

Trying to compare cross breeding between breeds and developing a breed is quite a stretch and I don't see any real resemblance for many reasons. We all know that many old and extinct breeds were used to develop new ones and the pointer was used but it isn't the same pointer we have today. Pointing dogs of several breeds, hounds, and other types were used to create the breeds we are talking about cross breeding today almost exclusively for the sole purpose of winning in some form of competion. This what caused the problem sometime in the not too distant past and everybody get to live with it for years to come.

Ezzy

[Cajun Casey]

"And, sequentially, with the passing of years, from time to time, some ethical owner of a right-looking, registered Shorthair bitch, oresumably purebred, bred to a like-accounted mate, drops into the whelping box something yellow or orange or black-patched and the owner with no resource or compensation, must pick up a bucket of water for indicated usage, meditating meanwhile on the miracle that is the meeting of recessives, generations down the pike..."
- C. Bede Maxwell, 1987.

[Elkhunter]

I no Cally is a e carrier coopers not

This answer #1

You can't go back in the line and black list because you'll never know which dogs and it wouldn't solve the present issue anyhow. The only thing we can do is stop it when we see it. And that's all we can do. Keeping the lines straight is our job when we produce a litter. Its all about the breeds and dogs that we love them so much isn't it.

Hanshaw I just want you to know that I never meant to put you down in any way, and I don't think any one else is trying to either. . I just felt that you are seeing in grey and not the big picture. I get you have an outstanding dog there and all you want is to get some more outstanding pups from her. But the right thing to do man is not breed her for the benefit of the breed and the people who may end up with one of the pups in a pedigree down the road. I'm not telling you what to do I'm just suggesting. I know I know its only a color issue but hey man its not the right color. Plain and simple.

I'm honestly sorry this has happened to your awesome dog and you.

Why not breed her and test pups and identify which ones are carriers and which ones are not. Spay/nueter the carriers and keep the clean pups? Why erase complete lines of dogs over something so simple to fix?

[brad27]

Excellent post Middlecreek.

[ACooper]

My questions, based on comments made, that basically says this entire line should be dismissed as an illegal tainted outcross and should be eliminated from the gene pool are these: (assuming the pups DNA back to sire and dam)

1. How exactly are you coming to the conclusion anything other than a recessive trait is showing up?
2. If not #1, and you claim EP cross, how do you prove it?
3. How do you prove when it took place?
4. If you can't prove #3, how many generations do you go back and start the "black list" of dogs to be taken out of the gene pool?
5. Does this go for all "off color" puppies and the entire line they come from?
6. What about puppies with tan(or whatever you choose to call it)?

Good post, I hope more folks participate.

1. Looks to be brainstorming, I am not under that impression.
2. DNA and "e" test.
3. you can't
4. We don't go back and black list any dogs, but current and future dogs should be black listed if warranted. I just hope people will stop with the "you can't prove it" or "But he/she has produced x number of winners" or "I have bred more inbred litters and never seen an off color pup". I also hope we stop pointing the finger at only the stud.
5. Yep
6. By tan do you mean the pups that have been on the board the last few years with tan points (similar to doberman)? From what I understand tan points is not gelber brand and should not be included in the gene pool.


Further I don't care if a dog with "e" gets bred as long as it's disclosed to everyone involved. I understand the buyer beware but a person assumes a certain expectation of type.

[Middlecreek]

5. Yep
6. By tan do you mean the pups that have been on the board the last few years with tan points (similar to doberman)? From what I understand tan points is not gelber brand and should not be included in the gene pool.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am posing the question to you as it changes when it effects our own dogs....

So, would you/should you/have you taken your dogs out of the gene pool since they share common lines?

[ACooper]

5. Yep
6. By tan do you mean the pups that have been on the board the last few years with tan points (similar to doberman)? From what I understand tan points is not gelber brand and should not be included in the gene pool.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am posing the question to you as it changes when it effects our own dogs....

So, would you/should you/have you taken your dogs out of the gene pool since they share common lines?

I guess I should clarify #5 when I said "yep". I meant off color dogs should be excluded, but I do not agree that entire lines should be excluded. IMO it should be handled on an individual basis.

If I did own a tri if I did I would not breed it, if an off colored pup was born in a litter I raised I would only allow limited registration. If someone wants to bred a tri that is their choice, same as knowingly breeding a "e" carrier.

How do you feel about off color? Considering how your dogs are bred?

[Ms. Cage]

So, would you/should you/have you taken your dogs out of the gene pool since they share common lines?

I'd have the dog out of the gene pool quicker than you could slap your knee if it was a carrier.. Never once, not once said wipe out a whole line or common lines. Non carrier to non carrier.
What was done is done, but we can change the future to rectify the past BS
2, 3 .. Does a thief in the night talk. Does a rapist tell you he's rapist? Does a malesting preacher stand in front of the congregation and say like like all the little boy!!!!

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am posing the question to you as it changes when it effects our own dogs....

I'm sure the question was to me.. I won't touch any thing that carries the so called gelber brand. do have common dog a ways back !!

[Middlecreek]

So, would you/should you/have you taken your dogs out of the gene pool since they share common lines?

I'd have the dog out of the gene pool quicker than you could slap your kneeif it was a carrier.. Never once, not once said wipe out a whole line or common lines. Non carrier to non carrier.
What was done is done, but we can change the future to reactive thr past BS
2, 3 .. Doesn't thieve in the night talk. Doesn't a rapist tell you he's rapist. Does a malisting preacher stand in front of the concurgation and say like like all the little boy!!!!

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am posing the question to you as it changes when it effects our own dogs....

I'm sure the question was to me.. I won't touch any thing that carries the so called gelber brand. do have common dog a ways back !!

Honestly, the question was not directed at anyone in particular.... It could have been LD or any other nondesireable trait we try to breed away from. Since you brought it up though, you must know where the "tan" came from since your dogs are related to the "tan" breeding that produced the tricolor(or whatever you choose to call it) everybody was talking about a year or so ago on this forum? Is there a color test I don't know about for the tan showing up? It was my understanding that there is no such test available as the color marker has not been isolated yet?

[Middlecreek]

5. Yep
6. By tan do you mean the pups that have been on the board the last few years with tan points (similar to doberman)? From what I understand tan points is not gelber brand and should not be included in the gene pool.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I am posing the question to you as it changes when it effects our own dogs....

So, would you/should you/have you taken your dogs out of the gene pool since they share common lines?

I guess I should clarify #5 when I said "yep". I meant off color dogs should be excluded, but I do not agree that entire lines should be excluded. IMO it should be handled on an individual basis.

If I did own a tri if I did I would not breed it, if an off colored pup was born in a litter I raised I would only allow limited registration. If someone wants to bred a tri that is their choice, same as knowingly breeding a "e" carrier.

How do you feel about off color? Considering how your dogs are bred?

I don't feel a lemon shorthair should be in the gene pool, and I certainly would not breed to one.

[Ms. Cage]

Since you brought it up though, you must know where the "tan" came from since your dogs are related to the "tan" breeding that produced the tricolor(or whatever you choose to call it) everybody was talking about a year or so ago on this forum? Is there a color test I don't know about for the tan showing up?

Common dogs , Hustler, ezstrand, hustlin haily. like I said back a ways. A friend said they called gorgina Barnes in Australia . She said when she wrote her book the Germans would not talk about Liver/Tan color period . You will never see a Liver/ tan on a german website.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Mrs Cage as I recall that Dobe marked pup was only Black & Tan wasn't it not tri colored & most didn't see much wrong with it the remarks I remember were it's only a color.

[Ms. Cage]

Mrs Cage as I recall that Dobe marked pup was only Black & Tan wasn't it not tri colored & most didn't see much wrong with it the remarks I remember were it's only a color.

Pups were liver and tan. Not black /Tan . Me saying tri was a mistake. Opps!!! PM sent

[Cajun Casey]

I'd call it liver and roan and tan.

viewtopic.php?f=79&t=21896&hilit=new+thunderhead+puppy

Just so's everyone's on the same page. At least you can't have a tri colored lemon dog.......

[Middlecreek]

Since you brought it up though, you must know where the "tan" came from since your dogs are related to the "tan" breeding that produced the tricolor(or whatever you choose to call it) everybody was talking about a year or so ago on this forum? Is there a color test I don't know about for the tan showing up?

Common dogs , Hustler, ezstrand, hustlin haily. like I said back a ways. A friend said he called gorgina Barnes in Australia . She said when she wrote her book the Germans would not talk about tri color period . You will never see a tri on a german website.

Thats kind of my point here, the common dogs.... Just because nobody talks about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and it doesn't mean it isn't in your own dogs. The ethics behind how this is being handled by the owner is definately in question, but those same ethics apply to everyone.

Really, I'm not trying to get into a mudslinging contest. We all(well most of us) know our lines and what we got, the difference is how these rare events should be handled in a respectful manner.

I respect your lines for what they are and what they have progressed into, all I ask is the same in return. Now, for the personal decisions on how these stuations are handled by the owners is something I won't touch with a ten foot pole! We have everything from "breed this puppy" to "black list" the entire line. I am somewhere in the middle, but beyond that I must force myself to remain openminded and make decisions about my own dogs based on what I know as fact.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

IT looked BLACK on my computer!!! Makes no difference wasn't right!!

[Ms. Cage]

I respect your lines for what they are and what they have progressed into, all I ask is the same in return.

same here. I have repect yourlines. I have said, many good dogs in the line, look back. I'm a strong beleiver in non to non though!!! qickest and surest way to clean things up. IMO!!!

[Elkhunter]

I respect your lines for what they are and what they have progressed into, all I ask is the same in return.

same here. I have repect yourlines. I have said, many good dogs in the line, look back. I'm a strong beleiver in non to non though!!! qickest and surest way to clean things up. IMO!!!

So Ms. Cage gotta ask, if you had an EXCEPTIONAL dog that was a carrier, you would rather see that dog never bred, versus breed to a non carrier and spay/neuter the carrier pups so they are not bred and keep the clean pups? Why would you be against that? It makes ZERO sense.

[campgsp]

I just wanted to put this link up as it explained the history of the German shorthaired pointer really well. It will explain the tri-color dogs well also. I think this will solve some of the confusion of where the gsp came from, color issues And what dogs were used to create them. The big word being create not tainting.

http://www.westwindgsps.com/german_shor ... istory.htm

[Ms. Cage]

So Ms. Cage gotta ask, if you had an EXCEPTIONAL dog that was a carrier, you would rather see that dog never bred, versus breed to a non carrier and spay/neuter the carrier pups so they are not bred and keep the clean pups? Why would you be against that? It makes ZERO sense.

I've done it. Will do it again. This is how I am. Make darn good sense to me. Being you asked, If you came to me and said I have super bit#ch that has LD recieve and said you'd like to breed to to my male. I'd tell you it ain't happening!!! I didn't even want to go here with on this and avoided your posts. But you've asked. Darn I wish you woldn't asked.
You gotta do what you beleive, as I do.

[campgsp]

Why not breed her and test pups and identify which ones are carriers and which ones are not. Spay/nueter the carriers and keep the clean pups? Why erase complete lines of dogs over something so simple to fix?

Why go through the hassle of paying to have each pup tested, then paying more to fix some, then having the chance of them all being carriers.

Would you put a used engine in your truck that you know is faulty and drive across the contry.? No because there are better options like buying a new truck or using a different engine that you know is good.

[Cajun Casey]

I just wanted to put this link up as it explained the history of the German shorthaired pointer really well. It will explain the tri-color dogs well also. I think this will solve some of the confusion of where the gsp came from, color issues And what dogs were used to create them. The big word being create not tainting.

http://www.westwindgsps.com/german_shor ... istory.htm

I'm sorry, but that article is full of inaccuracies and pure nonsense.

[campgsp]

Is it nonsense because you don't want to believe it or do you know something a lot of others don't. From my knowledge it goes with basically every other historical event in the gsp makup that I have ever researched.

[Elkhunter]

Why not breed her and test pups and identify which ones are carriers and which ones are not. Spay/nueter the carriers and keep the clean pups? Why erase complete lines of dogs over something so simple to fix?

Why go through the hassle of paying to have each pup tested, then paying more to fix some, then having the chance of them all being carriers.

Would you put a used engine in your truck that you know is faulty and drive across the contry.? No because there are better options like buying a new truck or using a different engine that you know is good.

Why would you equate a dog that is an LD carrier as a faulty dog? There is nothing physically "wrong" with them. Completely healthy. They just have a recessive gene that if bred with another carrier produces infected pups. So by simply testing them you can identify carriers and make sure they are never bred to carriers and can easily remove the gene in a generation or two from your breeding program.

Your truck analogy makes zero sense, if dogs that were carriers of the LD gene were somehow physically impaired or inferior then your analogy would make sense.

How many LD carrier dogs have you seen? And in what ways were the inferior or broken? Just curious.

[Elkhunter]

So Ms. Cage gotta ask, if you had an EXCEPTIONAL dog that was a carrier, you would rather see that dog never bred, versus breed to a non carrier and spay/neuter the carrier pups so they are not bred and keep the clean pups? Why would you be against that? It makes ZERO sense.

I've done it. Will do it again. This is how I am. Make darn good sense to me. Being you asked, If you came to me and said I have super bit#ch that has LD recieve and said you'd like to breed to to my male. I'd tell you it ain't happening!!! I didn't even want to go here with on this and avoided your posts. But you've asked. Darn I wish you woldn't asked.
You gotta do what you beleive, as I do.

Thats fine just makes ZERO sense actually Can you explain to me how breeding a dog and removing the carriers from the breeding pool but keeping clean dogs from specific lines or dogs would not make sense to you? You would allow an amazing dog to perpetuate his genes, all the while producing clean pups. And could easily remove the LD gene or color gene in one generation versus removing entire lines of dogs from the breeding pool.

As technology increases and these "rare" anomalies make themselves present do we just continue to eliminate those dogs/lines from breeding stock? What about lines that are prone to cancer? Do we eliminate those line ? Lines with kidney disease. You realize when you remove the "bad" you also remove the GOOD.

I spoke with the Dr. at UPENN who handles all of the LD testing and research for the Shorthair club and she said the hysteria behind it is completely uncalled for and that people need to get educated, I can send you the link so you can read it for yourself if you would like!

[Cajun Casey]

Why not breed her and test pups and identify which ones are carriers and which ones are not. Spay/nueter the carriers and keep the clean pups? Why erase complete lines of dogs over something so simple to fix?

Why go through the hassle of paying to have each pup tested, then paying more to fix some, then having the chance of them all being carriers.

Would you put a used engine in your truck that you know is faulty and drive across the contry.? No because there are better options like buying a new truck or using a different engine that you know is good.

Why would you equate a dog that is an LD carrier as a faulty dog? There is nothing physically "wrong" with them. Completely healthy. They just have a recessive gene that if bred with another carrier produces infected pups. So by simply testing them you can identify carriers and make sure they are never bred to carriers and can easily remove the gene in a generation or two from your breeding program.

Your truck analogy makes zero sense, if dogs that were carriers of the LD gene were somehow physically impaired or inferior then your analogy would make sense.

How many LD carrier dogs have you seen? And in what ways were the inferior or broken? Just curious.

Lupoid dermatosis is a complex disease and I'm still waiting for the confirmation of what someone said about them finding an actual gene. I know there is a marker. I have dogs from Rexx and Luke lines, by the way, as well as "e" lines. My little Oops-would-you-raise-a-litter-for-me-keep-what-you-want Shooting Dog combines the two bloodlines. So, I'm not dissing on LD lines.

[campgsp]

Its a fault no matter what way you look at it. Its not the right color. How hard is that to see.
I have seen one dog with this and ge never breed again.. all pups were fixed and sold.

[Elkhunter]

Thats cause your educated Casey!

[Cajun Casey]

Thats cause your educated Casey!

That's not my fault.

Do they have a gene nailed down yet, d'you know?

[Ms. Cage]

My little Oops-would-you-raise-a-litter-for-me-keep-what-you-want Shooting Dog combines the two bloodlines. So, I'm not dissing on LD lines.

Raise your own litter, Thanks anyways!!!

Thinking this breeding deal through. Well, If you wouldn't mind breeding to my cow hocked , arthritic, monorchid, sway back , one eyed, cross bitten, bull legged, 3 yr. old super star I got coming. I think we could accomidate your female. Ah, you should still raise your own litter though . Name all the pups, OPPS !!! i'm bowing out of this topic. Enjoy

[campgsp]

"You realize that when you remove the bad your removing the good"

So what you are clearly stating is that if a dog has any bad gene its ok to breed them otherwise we loose a line?

Good luck with that. And people wonder why some lines have so many problems.
.

[ACooper]

Lots of folks comparing "e" to LD and other health issues, no comparison.

[Cajun Casey]

Lots of folks comparing "e" to LD and other health issues, no comparison.

Same principle, though. Again, ask any Irish setter person about PRA.

[sckwest1]

I have always believed that the solid liver(chocolate) gsp have chocolate lab in them.

[dan v]

As technology increases and these "rare" anomalies make themselves present do we just continue to eliminate those dogs/lines from breeding stock? What about lines that are prone to cancer? Do we eliminate those line ? Lines with kidney disease. You realize when you remove the "bad" you also remove the GOOD.

I spoke with the Dr. at UPENN who handles all of the LD testing and research for the Shorthair club and she said the hysteria behind it is completely uncalled for and that people need to get educated, I can send you the link so you can read it for yourself if you would like!

To further Elkhunter's point. I have this snip from Dr. Jerold Bell DVM...google him.

However, once a genetic test is developed that allows breeders to positively determine if a dog is
a carrier of a defective gene, many owners are likely to remove carrier dogs from their breeding
stock. Although doing so is human nature, this temptation must be overcome. Any quality dog
that you would have bred if it had tested normal should still be bred if it tests as a carrier.

In such circumstances, carriers should be bred to normal-testing dogs. This ensures that affected
offspring will not be produced. Carrier breeding stock should be subsequently replaced with
normal-testing offspring that exceeds it in quality. If the only quality offspring is also a carrier,
then use that offspring to replace your original carrier. You have improved the quality of your
breeding stock, even though the defective gene remains in this generation. It is certainly true,
though, that the health of the breed does depend on diminishing the carrier frequency and not
increasing it. You should therefore limit the number of carrier-testing offspring that you place in
breeding homes. This does not mean, however, that you should prevent all of them from being
bred. It is important to carry on lines. A test that should be used to help maintain breed diversity
should not result in limiting it.

The rest of the paper..... http://clubs.akc.org/wtca/health/health_bell_4.pdf

[ACooper]

I have always believed that the solid liver(chocolate) gsp have chocolate lab in them.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1357394053.868350.jpg

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1357394079.736844.jpg

Now what would make you think that?

[sckwest1]

it's ok though i am strictly a pointer guy and feed addition go boy dogs and the rumor is that they have hound in them. someone knew their hounds is all i can say. by the way wasn't trying to insult anyone's dogs, simply making a statement of personal opinion. goodluck, sck

[ACooper]

it's ok though i am strictly a pointer guy and feed addition go boy dogs and the rumor is that they have hound in them. someone knew their hounds is all i can say. by the way wasn't trying to insult anyone's dogs, simply making a statement of personal opinion. goodluck, sck

I was joking, I joke about my own dog being part lab. Most people ask why my lab has a short tail!

[sckwest1]

LOL, i knew that you were, but figure someone will prob take it the wrong way. I like the pic of the pointing lab though. Most that I have seen don't have that intensity.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

CampGSP the color black in our standard is a DQ fault so should black dogs be bred??

[DGFavor]

However, once a genetic test is developed that allows breeders to positively determine if a dog is
a carrier of a defective gene, many owners are likely to remove carrier dogs from their breeding
stock. Although doing so is human nature, this temptation must be overcome. Any quality dog
that you would have bred if it had tested normal should still be bred if it tests as a carrier.

In such circumstances, carriers should be bred to normal-testing dogs. This ensures that affected
offspring will not be produced. Carrier breeding stock should be subsequently replaced with
normal-testing offspring that exceeds it in quality. If the only quality offspring is also a carrier,
then use that offspring to replace your original carrier. You have improved the quality of your
breeding stock, even though the defective gene remains in this generation. It is certainly true,
though, that the health of the breed does depend on diminishing the carrier frequency and not
increasing it. You should therefore limit the number of carrier-testing offspring that you place in
breeding homes. This does not mean, however, that you should prevent all of them from being
bred. It is important to carry on lines. A test that should be used to help maintain breed diversity
should not result in limiting it.

Yup, finally. That was only thing I disagreed with what Elkhunter was sayin' regarding the offspring of carriers x non-carrier matings - no need to immediately spay/neuter carrier offspring until they are evaluated to see if any of them are exemplary specimens of the breed deserving to be bred themselves - utilizing equal diligence regarding their breeding partners as well. Fight back the human inclination for paranoia and it's simple stuff. Nuff said. Next topic.

[Adam]

Campgsp I'm still waiting to hear if you do all the required testing to prove you have no "bad" genes in your lines i.e. CD, LD, E gene, Dilute gene,?

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Does anyone here think there is such thing as 100% clean lines? I don't.

[Cajun Casey]

Does anyone here think there is such thing as 100% clean lines? I don't.

Define "clean."

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

That's my point CC I keep hearing about clean but clean probably means something different to everyone.
Do you think there are any clean lines when it comes to diseases,I doubt it but some might disagree.

[Adam]

I agree there are no clean "lines"

[Winchey]

I would buy one of those pups if I wanted a shorthair. I would stud him out too if he was good enough and there was demand.