What is an AA pointer?

[dan v]

If you do not initiate a flushing attempt and simply send the dog on, an NP should not be charged.

Correct.

[Oscar]

I know a fellow or two who HAS been to Ames,One of them a retired AF AA handler who lives in mexico and has trained some of Oscars pointers.All that said Ames is a shooting dog course I've been told,They race an AA dog around there and the dog has to handle,.

Hi Wildweeds
That's what makes a dog big wins in Ames, including as the its unlimited endurance and ability to find birds. The handler is what you mean is a good friend, just like you, he has ever juice my dog​​, but although I am amateur and I've always been always trained all my dogs never other person . I do not like other handle my dogs , I try to make my dogs one man dogs .

I think one need to see an AA dog and then you know... many thinks make an AA dog range is one very important bat not only.

[Ruffshooter]

The best answer is, GO WATCH ONE. Dont watch some guys dog that "says" this is an AA dog. Go with someone that does it, that has placements with their dogs, and you WILL know the difference within a matter of seconds.

Not AA but back in 02 I went to ND NAVHDA VC to watch. I was at a point and really did not know what I had or had to do or how good I had to train my dog. My philosophy was train for the worst things to happen then they would be good the rest of the time.
I was having trouble with my 14 month old GSP training. (Well so I thought)
I went watched and realized what I had was a VC in the making. With that trip, I saw dogs at their best in that type venue. That year at 15 oor 16months old she passed UT1 . It helped me focus and helped me see what was really needed to be the best in that venue.
Seeing and watching and listening to those afield in the AA will truly enlighten one. I hope one day to get to some AA to watch then maybe run, if I get rich.

[jetjockey]

I just got caught up with the discussion, and I have to say, it's been entertaining, and I even learned a bit. The reason I asked was not so much that I don't know what an AA dog is, I was just wondering what others would say about range and speed. 6 or 7 years ago people could BS their way around range and speed, but with the Garmin, it's pretty black and white. I'd be willing to bet very few people have actually seen a dog at a real GPS measured 800-1000 yards. I can tell you from experience, you don't see much. If there isn't vantage points with rolling hills, you won't see anything at all. heck, Chuckar nearly ran my dog over at about 5 ft. Haha... I got to watch some really nice Brits run in the prairies making some really nice 800-900 yard casts a couple years ago. Based on the Ames thread, I was curious if people would call that AA range, or SD range. I can't think of anywhere at Ames a dog could run that big. heck, there's only a few places a dog could hit 500, but I'm no expert on Ames, I just got to ride the AKC NGDC there, so I at least got to see that. My trainer called me not to long ago and told me my dog was hitting 900 on the Garmin, yet still handling. However, There is very few courses I have seen that I would want her out that far. I was just curious if you guys would consider that AA or SD range?

[RyanGSP]

Is the range different for different venues? Is the range of a AKC/CKC AA different than an AF AA?

[slistoe]

The problem you have jetjockey is that there is no defineable thing as range for a particular classification. An All Age dog will make 1000 yard casts in the prairies at Mortlach but that same dog would be hard pressed to make a 300 yard move in Eastern Grouse cover. It is the same dog - so is he now not an All Age Dog?
The other thing is that a dog making a move to 800 yards is one thing - maintaining that distance while putting down a credible hunting effort in front of a mounted handler and judge for an hour is quite another. If your dog can consistently hunt his way to 400 yard objectives while maintaining a forward ground effort in front of a handler moving at 6-7 mph in relatively open ground he would be able to hang with most Shooting Dogs I have seen.

Ryan - I have only once seen an All Age stake offered in CKC - and that was a Walking Stake in open country. The concept was not revisited.

[jetjockey]

Yes. Different grounds will have different ranges as well. AA Brits on average don't run like AA pointers. But there are a small few that do. Interesting thing is those dogs don't usually win in the brit world from what I've seen. All AA AF Pointers run, not just a few.

[jetjockey]

I'd agree with that Slistoe. That's what I found interesting about the GSP and Ames post. I found it really interesting to hear some folks who had watched both NC's say there wasn't that much difference in the dogs. Grant it, the AKC NC wasn't a 3 hr brace, and those dogs didnt go head to head in the prairies, but on a GD/SD course, it doesn't seem there is a huge difference. I won't argue that an AA pointer in the prairies isn't a thing of beauty, or that a V breed could keep up with one. But I think it's hard to quantify exactly what an AA dog is and isn't, especially on tighter courses... And by no means did I say my dog could keep up with any of them. I've learned the second you brag about a dog they immediately make you look like an idiot. My muts just a bird dog..

[ACooper]

I believe Rockstar has been banned, No need to keep beating a (silent) dead horse.

How many user names has he been banned under now?

[PkerStr8Tail]

I am not sure why some think AA dog means a run off or a dog that ranges 2 to 3 miles. I have competed in AKC hunt tests, NAVHDA, NSTRA, horseback SD trials and rode in the gallery for horseback AA field trials. That doesn't make me an expert in any of them but I only say that say I have at least been involved in all those different competitions to at least speak from personal experience. AA dogs are not simply these excessive ranging dogs that some seem to think it means to be AA. If the dog has excessive range the dog would never present itself during the brace. A dog that is not seen cannot win a field trial.

As for comments that these field trial dogs are not bird finders doesn't seem to take into account what the dogs are asked to do in this competition. The dog is expected to hunt to the front of a group of people on horseback riding a fairly good pace. A dog hunts the field edges/objectives where quail are commonly found and must keep a consistent forward motion to remain to the front. This is edge running to the front hunting is trained for the part. Much like a dog can be trained to quarter in the field 40 yards ahead of you. I am not saying any dog can be trained to be a field trial dog cause they can't. A dog needs to show the independence, ground speed and competitiveness to be molded into a field trial dog. The excessive ranging dog is more a product of a dog that is hunting for himself and not the handler. This is not a winning field trial dog because the dog simply won't present itself enough during the brace to win.

A dog that can consistently win in field trials has to show a lot of intelligence to know where the front is at all times all the while hunting objective to find birds. I am not saying field trial dogs are far superior to dogs competing in other venues or simply foot hunted but I will say they do have to intelligent athletes to compete in that venue.

[brad27]

^^^^^^^^nice post.

[slistoe]

I'd agree with that Slistoe. That's what I found interesting about the GSP and Ames post. I found it really interesting to hear some folks who had watched both NC's say there wasn't that much difference in the dogs.

I have never been to Ames, but I have heard folks who have been there say that if a Continental dog could somehow get qualified they should not have trouble showing well on the grounds there (provided they can go the 3 hours, which is a very tall order). The trouble is they can't open up enough to get qualified. Therein lies the real quality of a NC dog - roll on the biggest country there is and then bring it in.

[tn red]

After an hour & half on the ground in the deep mud at Ames the edges get to looking ALOT bigger the last hour & half Your not going to run a SD race & get anything done.

[DGFavor]

The trouble is they can't open up enough to get qualified.

That's just plain wrong.

[JKP]

Interesting read.....and I thought I recognized Rockstar...

I am not saying field trial dogs are far superior to dogs competing in other venues or simply foot hunted but I will say they do have to intelligent athletes to compete in that venue.

Thank you...I have said this for years. The extreme athletes are just that and are not necessarily better dogs for the hunting public. What is lacking in the discussion is the tradeoffs that occur when you are breeding for the extreme.

[slistoe]

The trouble is they can't open up enough to get qualified.

That's just plain wrong.

[Vision]

6 or 7 years ago people could BS their way around range and speed, but with the Garmin, it's pretty black and white. I'd be willing to bet very few people have actually seen a dog at a real GPS measured 800-1000 yards. I can tell you from experience, you don't see much. If there isn't vantage points with rolling hills, you won't see anything at all. heck, Chuckar nearly ran my dog over at about 5 ft.

I could see my dog on this cast in the Dakota stubble fields. DGFavor saw her at this range in an Idaho CRP field. A tall dark liver roan GSP sticks out in a yellow, tan, white backdrop.

[Jakezilla]

I am a field trialer (coverdog) and when threads like this start up I usually stay out of it. Most of the arguments come, for the most part, from the fact that people who don't trial do not understand the purpose of field trials. The following link describes the purpose of field trials better than I ever could. It doesn't speak for everyone but it is a good start. I have been to coverdog, SD championships, weekend AA trials and watched AA dogs in workouts. Describing an AA dog is very difficult and it is more than just range. It is also about watching the dog work and noticing the things he does that cannot be taught, seeing and recognizing that raw talent and intelligence. Unless you have watched a lot of dogs before hand it is very possible that you will miss the special things about a true AA dog. Just my 2 cents.

http://strideaway.com/the-real-purpose-of-field-trials/

[RyanGSP]

6 or 7 years ago people could BS their way around range and speed, but with the Garmin, it's pretty black and white. I'd be willing to bet very few people have actually seen a dog at a real GPS measured 800-1000 yards. I can tell you from experience, you don't see much. If there isn't vantage points with rolling hills, you won't see anything at all. heck, Chuckar nearly ran my dog over at about 5 ft.

I could see my dog on this cast in the Dakota stubble fields. DGFavor saw her at this range in an Idaho CRP field. A tall dark liver roan GSP sticks out in a yellow, tan, white backdrop.

Hes got the range be a n AA dog but isnt he supposed to work to the front ??

[DGFavor]

Hes got the range be a n AA dog but isnt he supposed to work to the front ??

Freakin' Garmins - I don't know how you guys find anything with 'em. Every person I've hunted with this year that has 'em has wandered around in circles looking for their dogs. Near as I can tell, the dog is usually opposite the direction the thing tells you...in the case associated with the picture posted, the dog was in fact a tiny brown dot the size of a molecule directly to the front....I know cause I watched her run there while Vision was spinning around staring and mumbling at his Garmin!! Nothin' shows up and looks better than a brown dog rollin' out across the yellow CRP...then they hit the sage and whole new ball game!!

[slistoe]

Hes got the range be a n AA dog but isnt he supposed to work to the front ??

Freakin' Garmins - I don't know how you guys find anything with 'em. Every person I've hunted with this year that has 'em has wandered around in circles looking for their dogs. Near as I can tell, the dog is usually opposite the direction the thing tells you...in the case associated with the picture posted, the dog was in fact a tiny brown dot the size of a molecule directly to the front....I know cause I watched her run there while Vision was spinning around staring and mumbling at his Garmin!! Nothin' shows up and looks better than a brown dog rollin' out across the yellow CRP...then they hit the sage and whole new ball game!!

Solid liver GSP - the worst thing to try and find on point buried deep in a willow thicket that was ever put on the ground.

[UpNorthHuntin]

Freakin' Garmins - I don't know how you guys find anything with 'em. Every person I've hunted with this year that has 'em has wandered around in circles looking for their dogs. Near as I can tell, the dog is usually opposite the direction the thing tells you...in the case associated with the picture posted, the dog was in fact a tiny brown dot the size of a molecule directly to the front....I know cause I watched her run there while Vision was spinning around staring and mumbling at his Garmin!! Nothin' shows up and looks better than a brown dog rollin' out across the yellow CRP...then they hit the sage and whole new ball game!!

I have to recalibrate the compass in mine before every trip out. Once I do that it is pretty accurate, but if not you might be going in the complete opposite direction.

[dan v]

Hes got the range be a n AA dog but isnt he supposed to work to the front ??

Freakin' Garmins - I don't know how you guys find anything with 'em. Every person I've hunted with this year that has 'em has wandered around in circles looking for their dogs. Near as I can tell, the dog is usually opposite the direction the thing tells you...in the case associated with the picture posted, the dog was in fact a tiny brown dot the size of a molecule directly to the front....I know cause I watched her run there while Vision was spinning around staring and mumbling at his Garmin!! Nothin' shows up and looks better than a brown dog rollin' out across the yellow CRP...then they hit the sage and whole new ball game!!

Solid liver GSP - the worst thing to try and find on point buried deep in a willow thicket that was ever put on the ground.

Heavy roan Brit.

[Vision]

Hes got the range be a n AA dog but isnt he supposed to work to the front ??

Freakin' Garmins - I don't know how you guys find anything with 'em. Every person I've hunted with this year that has 'em has wandered around in circles looking for their dogs. Near as I can tell, the dog is usually opposite the direction the thing tells you...in the case associated with the picture posted, the dog was in fact a tiny brown dot the size of a molecule directly to the front....I know cause I watched her run there while Vision was spinning around staring and mumbling at his Garmin!! Nothin' shows up and looks better than a brown dog rollin' out across the yellow CRP...then they hit the sage and whole new ball game!!

DGFavor speaks the truth, I almost bored a hole through the Earth to China 2x on that trip.

[SCT]

My Astro is always pointing them in the right direction except sometimes when I'm closing in under 100 yards, then sometimes it will show opposite directions occasionally. Compared to telemetry, which I've used all my life to track falcons, I prefer the Astro hands down. This male pup I have makes me yearn for telemetry sometimes though, because it will reach out there 25 miles (not saying the pup runs quite that big, but close ).

[RyanGSP]

Hes got the range be a n AA dog but isnt he supposed to work to the front ??

Freakin' Garmins - I don't know how you guys find anything with 'em. Every person I've hunted with this year that has 'em has wandered around in circles looking for their dogs. Near as I can tell, the dog is usually opposite the direction the thing tells you...in the case associated with the picture posted, the dog was in fact a tiny brown dot the size of a molecule directly to the front....I know cause I watched her run there while Vision was spinning around staring and mumbling at his Garmin!! Nothin' shows up and looks better than a brown dog rollin' out across the yellow CRP...then they hit the sage and whole new ball game!!

DGFavor speaks the truth, I almost bored a hole through the Earth to China 2x on that trip.

I was just busting yer chops. Didnt mean anything by it.

[Vision]

Hes got the range be a n AA dog but isnt he supposed to work to the front ??

I was just busting yer chops. Didnt mean anything by it.

Your fine, you didn't know that I had to turn away from the dog to snap a picture of the garmin because the sun, you just assumed the dog was behind because the direction the garmin was pointed, no offense.

[ACooper]

Turn slowly in two circles..................

[RyanGSP]

Hes got the range be a n AA dog but isnt he supposed to work to the front ??

I was just busting yer chops. Didnt mean anything by it.

Your fine, you didn't know that I had to turn away from the dog to snap a picture of the garmin because the sun, you just assumed the dog was behind because the direction the garmin was pointed, no offense.

According to a certain moderator it was a problem and a "bad thing" so I am sorry man.

[DGFavor]

it was a problem and a "bad thing" so I am sorry man.

Meany.

This thread needs more pointer pics:

IB Sweet Jane vs hungarians:


Idaho's Clean Sweep vs chukars:


Idaho's Lucky Strike vs valley quail:


Kelly's Talkin' Smak vs chukar:


Couple youngsters dragging Tommy Davis around the prairie:


Elhews Whipporwill RedWater von Scoots:

[ezzy333]

According to a certain moderator it was a problem and a "bad thing" so I am sorry man.

I think that certain moderator gave you some other advice too that you seem to be having trouble with.

Ezzy

[RyanGSP]

it was a problem and a "bad thing" so I am sorry man.

Meany.

Ya thats me the GDF cyber bully.

[Jakezilla]

The garmins work great but you have to calibrate your compass. Before I start a hunt or training session I calibrate my compass away from all sources of iron (truck, gun etc.) and as long as you hold the receiver level (Astro 220) it takes me to the dog every time. Most of the time it stays in my pocket and I pay attention to my dog. It only comes out in really thick cover or in the summer when the ferns are over the dogs head.

[Vision]

The garmins work great but you have to calibrate your compass. Before I start a hunt or training session I calibrate my compass away from all sources of iron (truck, gun etc.) and as long as you hold the receiver level (Astro 220) it takes me to the dog every time. Most of the time it stays in my pocket and I pay attention to my dog. It only comes out in really thick cover or in the summer when the ferns are over the dogs head.

In flat, or rolly polly country I would think they work just fine every time, but in the steeps where chukars live you loose the signal all the time. gotta run meeting my hunting partner in a few minutes.

[Neil]

Same size antennae to same size antenna the Garmin has the same range and loss of signal as telemetry, both use RF. Telemetry has a much longer battery life. There are some quriks in the Garmin, such as recalibrating the compass often, and deleting the old tracks, though I have never had to calibrate during a hunt, and you just have to turn the unit in hands, not your whole body.