Could a German shorthaired pointer make it to Ames?

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:01 am

cmc274 wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:
cmc274 wrote:Anyone ever seen or heard of a shorthair or brit finishing (or running in) any endurance stakes? Southern, Continental, Free for All?
Rick Smith...Pacolet's Cheyenne Sam
Sweet, give me some details, google didnt help me out.

It was a 3 hr. shooting dog endurance at Ames.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:21 am

MillerClemsonHD wrote:
How many people posting in this thread have a dog qualified for AA CH,

I do.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:40 am

Wyndancer wrote:
MillerClemsonHD wrote:
How many people posting in this thread have a dog qualified for AA CH,

I do.

My dogs grandson is gonna be there too.

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:51 am

Wyndancer wrote:
MillerClemsonHD wrote:
How many people posting in this thread have a dog qualified for AA CH,

I do.

What's it take for a dog to be qualified for AF AA Championships?

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:07 am

jetjockey wrote:My little Brits too small, to roan, and doesn't run big enough to run with HB dogs. But this wasn't about my dog. I was just curious how someone with so little experience can judge what it does or doesn't take to qualify a dog. If you've never even ridden a 1 hr trial, how do you even know what it takes to win?

Weekend stakes in AF are 1hr. I was there 2 weeks ago and watched my pups sire win. Plan to be there again possibly in 2 weeks and going to run my derby there some later in the spring. You are more than welcome to bring some Britts and enter them its not a closed trial. Hopefully I get that placement this spring and can go get schooled at some AM CH.

If there are shorthairs or britts in the country right now that can compete on the level of AA pointers for 1 hour why are they not being entered? There are 10 and 20K purses to be won. If a dog from either breed could get the job done they would be there competing. If there was this plethora of 1hr capable dogs that could run in AA pointer stakes why aren't they entered in the 1hr closed breed trials? Those dogs would be very successful in those venues. If a dog could get to ames why hasn't an owner that the amount of money it would take to get the dog to ames invested it to do so? If a pointer qualified for ames sells for $50k what would the only GSP or britt ever qualified go for? If the dogs truly existed within the breed the discussion would be about whether a GSP/Britt or a Setter will knock the pointer off the podium. Before we can talk about that IF these AA dogs exist that are just as good as pointers then go beat 50 of them at a CH and people will take notice. If you leave there with one of the top 5 best dogs at that trial it will be noticed.

There are obviously some GSPs/Britts that have some major accomplishments in our history already. Instead of trying to make them AA pointers why aren't we talking about how we breed more dogs that can beat pointers at a 3hr endurance stake? The unrealistic expectations of what GSPs and Britts are, would be why we have 45-55lb all white britts and gsps with orange/lemon colors. We have some excellent dogs in both breeds and rather than trying to make them something they aren't try to make them the best of what they are. You want to run at Ames, go buy a pointer and even then its a long shot.

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:12 am

jetjockey wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:
MillerClemsonHD wrote:
How many people posting in this thread have a dog qualified for AA CH,

I do.
What's it take for a dog to be qualified for AF AA Championships?

Eligibility
Section 8. To be eligible for the All-Age Championships dogs and handlers shall have a winner's certificate from this Corporation for a win in a derby or an all-age event. To be eligible for the Regional Shooting Dog Championship and the Regional Walking Shooting Dog Championship, dogs and handlers must have a winner's certificate from this corporation for a win in a shooting dog or derby event.

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:27 am

Nope just the biggest. If gsps and britts can compete there then they have a reason to talk and say they belong![/quote]
So, only pointers and setters that win there can say they belong? What about all the other long tails that qualify at the "other" Nat. Qualifiers? Do they not deserve to be there?[/quote]

No but if a GSP/Britt goes out and wins a 50 AA open CH against the best of the best they have proven they belong in the discussion with the AA pointers. IF the dogs that could be competitive existed they would already be there competing. Win one of those with either of those breeds and you could make a bunch of money.

Any dog that is qualified the first question asked is what did they win to qualify. There certainly are different "levels" of qualifying stakes and everyone knows what dogs have done what to get there. I'd take a win in any one of them I could get any way I could get them and be happy, but that doesn't mean they are all viewed as equal.

rkappes · Post by **rkappes** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:31 am

MillerClemsonHD wrote:
jetjockey wrote: You want to run at Ames, go buy a pointer and even then its a long shot.

Nothing wrong with trying…even if it is a long shot.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:34 am

Any dog that is qualified the first question asked is what did they win to qualify.

In my experience, usually the first question asked when a dog qualifies is "are ya' goin'?" and that's after a good round of congratulations.

Pretty sure the question of "what did they win to qualify?" gets asked on Monday mornings by bitter, skeptics that typically like to decry politics and good 'ol boy clubs as the reason for their failure to ever get a placement themselves.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:54 am

MillerClemsonHD wrote:
Weekend stakes in AF are 1hr. ..........

You should just stop...it's clear, you have no idea what you're talking about.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:13 am

This thread is awesome! Wow.

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:17 am

DGFavor wrote:
Any dog that is qualified the first question asked is what did they win to qualify.
In my experience, usually the first question asked when a dog qualifies is "are ya' goin'?" and that's after a good round of congratulations.

Pretty sure the question of "what did they win to qualify?" gets asked on Monday mornings by bitter, skeptics that typically like to decry politics and good 'ol boy clubs as the reason for their failure to ever get a placement themselves.

Like I said I'd take any one of those wins any day and be happy and it is one heck of an accomplishment any way it is done.

After the dust settles and the congratulations have been said people want to know what all that dog has done. Maybe some of it is the bitter and angry folks. To me I see more of it from the folks that want information, and want to know as much as they can about the dogs and how they got to where they are, how they are bred and anything else they can. Maybe I'm misunderstanding their intentions, but sure learn a lot when they are asked.

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:21 am

Wyndancer wrote:
MillerClemsonHD wrote:
Weekend stakes in AF are 1hr. ..........

You should just stop...it's clear, you have no idea what you're talking about.

We are talking about AA stakes right? Maybe I should have made that clearer. I have never seen an ad for a 30 min AA stake but hey I'll look a little harder maybe I'll find one. Yes I know there are other stakes in AF that run 30 mins, but we are talking specifically about AA stakes.

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:30 am

I'm just gonna leave this alone. You guys talk about britts and gsps at Ames.

I'll keep running my gsps and having fun and run my pointer and maybe someday people will be talking about him on the internet.

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:33 am

Wyndancer wrote:
MillerClemsonHD wrote:
Weekend stakes in AF are 1hr. ..........

You should just stop...it's clear, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Shhh. Don't tell him.

dead mike · Post by **dead mike** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:02 am

Neil wrote:Back in the early 90's there was a GSP half qualified (won one qualifying trail, the Cajin I think), he was owned by the same lady that owned HOF Brush Country Spector.

There have only been very few AA Brittanys, lyle Johnson won with. We have done better in SD Ch, Rick Smith as mentioned, Jim Holman with Pizzaz at the Egyptian SD Ch with RU. I have been winning now and then since the 80's in weekend pointer SD stakes, and have had a couple good showings in the Ames Amature, but no placements. The Ames Amature is ran on the same courses as the NC, as was the AKC GD Ch. There are two trials ran at Ames each year that are open to FDSB dogs, you all ought to come down.

I have been going to Ames since the 70's, and AA trials since the 60's, I think I have a good handle on what it takes to win at the highest levels.

There are very few honest one hour GSP, and fewer Britts, and I have seen none that could go 3 hours at Ames in the Feb mud, doesn't mean there are not any, just I have not seen them. I honestly do not think we will see a GSP or Britt at the NC in our lifetimes, not mine for sure. They would have to take the dog off their circuit where they dominate to run and rarely place against pointers. BTW, I don't think it is biased judging (i have only found 3 or 4 bad judges), it is just that tough.

For the most part I think we ought to stick to our venues and have fun.

Sounds like you've been around. I would be curious to know some of the dogs that stood out over the years?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:56 pm

[quote

It was a 3 hr. shooting dog endurance at Ames.[/quote]

Not Ames, it was at Lake Murray/Ardmore, OK.

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:15 pm

Neil,

Was that half qualified dog Rockin Rollin Billy? George Newcomb the handler,during that time period I remember some purina ads with that dog and handler.

Favor,

Did Hoke ever run Quesenberys Ben dog at any of the af trials.R.J. had a good story of ben blowing the doors off one of browns miller pointers,the best part of the story was the pre running comments made by Mrs Brown and how a confimationally correct pointer would show it's genetic prowess in the running department and leave Ben in the dust.Speechless when the stub tail grabbed faster than light drive and crested the big hill leaving the pointer behind.

Petroplex Hunter · Post by **Petroplex Hunter** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:45 pm

Could a GSP make it to Ames...Well, yes. But if your goal is to run AA stakes with the hopes of winning at Ames why wouldn't you start with the breed that has been bred and developed to run 3 hr HB stakes to begin with? It's like shooting a round of sporting clays with a .22.... yes it could be done, but would you rather have a .12 gauge?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:48 pm

I believe the dog with George Newcomb in the Purina add was NFC Moesgaards Rythm N Blues (Timmy)

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:50 pm

Petroplex Hunter wrote:Could a GSP make it to Ames...Well, yes. But if your goal is to run AA stakes with the hopes of winning at Ames why wouldn't you start with the breed that has been bred and developed to run 3 hr HB stakes to begin with? It's like shooting a round of sporting clays with a .22.... yes it could be done, but would you rather have a .12 gauge?

You 'd be a lot more impressive if you did it well with a .22.

Petroplex Hunter · Post by **Petroplex Hunter** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:54 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
Petroplex Hunter wrote:Could a GSP make it to Ames...Well, yes. But if your goal is to run AA stakes with the hopes of winning at Ames why wouldn't you start with the breed that has been bred and developed to run 3 hr HB stakes to begin with? It's like shooting a round of sporting clays with a .22.... yes it could be done, but would you rather have a .12 gauge?
You 'd be a lot more impressive if you did it well with a .22.

Indeed!

Imagine how valuable a GSP would be that had won Ames!

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:57 pm

Petroplex Hunter wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
Petroplex Hunter wrote:Could a GSP make it to Ames...Well, yes. But if your goal is to run AA stakes with the hopes of winning at Ames why wouldn't you start with the breed that has been bred and developed to run 3 hr HB stakes to begin with? It's like shooting a round of sporting clays with a .22.... yes it could be done, but would you rather have a .12 gauge?
You 'd be a lot more impressive if you did it well with a .22.

Indeed!

Imagine how valuable a GSP would be that had won Ames!

Would a GSP that won at Ames be any more valuable than a pointer that wins the national?

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:06 pm

Petroplex Hunter wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
Petroplex Hunter wrote:Could a GSP make it to Ames...Well, yes. But if your goal is to run AA stakes with the hopes of winning at Ames why wouldn't you start with the breed that has been bred and developed to run 3 hr HB stakes to begin with? It's like shooting a round of sporting clays with a .22.... yes it could be done, but would you rather have a .12 gauge?
You 'd be a lot more impressive if you did it well with a .22.

Indeed!

Imagine how valuable a GSP would be that had won Ames!

But the common thing is neither will happen. It just a different game.

Middlecreek · Post by **Middlecreek** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:08 pm

Petroplex Hunter wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
Petroplex Hunter wrote:Could a GSP make it to Ames...Well, yes. But if your goal is to run AA stakes with the hopes of winning at Ames why wouldn't you start with the breed that has been bred and developed to run 3 hr HB stakes to begin with? It's like shooting a round of sporting clays with a .22.... yes it could be done, but would you rather have a .12 gauge?
You 'd be a lot more impressive if you did it well with a .22.

Indeed!

Imagine how valuable a GSP would be that had won Ames!

Not as valuable as one might think... a pointer that has won a championship will sell for 10-20 thousand all day long, but a gsp that has won a championship would never touch that. Championship qualified derbies for 5-10 all day too. It's just not the mindset of most shorthair people. Maybe I'm wrong, if so I have two champions and a qualified drby for sale!

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:11 pm

Lets start and endowment fund for anything other than a pointer or setter to win The AA National at Ames. All of you that think it is possible throw in $200. And if that dog wins in the next 40 yrs we'll give it to the winner, Oh and by the way, I'll throw in an extra $10K to the winner. BUT....... if it doesn't happen in 40 years, I get the money. How many takers do we have?

bigoak · Post by **bigoak** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:16 pm

What are you guy's taking about,those good O'l boys wouldn't let a setter win down there!

rkappes · Post by **rkappes** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:40 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:Lets start and endowment fund for anything other than a pointer or setter to win The AA National at Ames. All of you that think it is possible throw in $200. And if that dog wins in the next 40 yrs we'll give it to the winner, Oh and by the way, I'll throw in an extra $10K to the winner. BUT....... if it doesn't happen in 40 years, I get the money. How many takers do we have?

I’ll do that…..$200 for a chance to win $10,000 over the next 40 years…kind of a no-brainer, isn’t it?

Unless you mean $200 per year over the next 40 years, which I’d still clear $2,000 if anything other than a pointer won.

Not only will I have a chance at a nice chunk of change, since it’s an endowment I’ll be able to deduct my donation.

A lot of things can change in 40 years….

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:01 pm

I think when it happens it will be an amateur that does it. Notice I didn't say "if."

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:07 pm

Id seriously be willing to set it up. Itd be the easiest money i've ever made.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:11 pm

I was told by a well known retired GSP pro that the owner of the GSP bitch that won the NFC in 93 was offered $20,000 for her but turned it down.The pro said if she had been mine she would have been gone.
I'll let you figure out the bitch & the pro he wasn't retired at that time in 94.

rkappes · Post by **rkappes** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:21 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:Id seriously be willing to set it up. Itd be the easiest money i've ever made.

Set it up and I’m probably in. How do we know you are good for the $10K? Would you limit the entries? Anything over 50 entries and a person wouldn't break even.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:33 pm

Would a GSP that won at Ames be any more valuable than a pointer that wins the national?[/quote]

I figured it would be worth a fortune. Wouldn't every HB gsp breeder want to base their program on that dog?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:39 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I was told by a well known retired GSP pro that the owner of the GSP bitch that won the NFC in 93 was offered $20,000 for her but turned it down.The pro said if she had been mine she would have been gone.
I'll let you figure out the bitch & the pro he wasn't retired at that time in 94.

You want to double check that date? I can't figure hard enough to make either the NGSPA or GSPCA NFC a female that year.

mask · Post by **mask** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:44 pm

Would the fairytail winner of this endowment have to be dna'ed and show there is no EP blood in their background?

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:56 pm

Wildweeds wrote:Neil,

Was that half qualified dog Rockin Rollin Billy?

No it was Leibchen Buddendorf run by Ed Husser

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:57 pm

CC she was the NGDCH but I don't think they seperated them back then I believe they were all listed as NFC.

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:57 pm

bigoak wrote:What are you guy's taking about,those good O'l boys wouldn't let a setter win down there!

Amen

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:59 pm

rkappes wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote:Id seriously be willing to set it up. Itd be the easiest money i've ever made.
Set it up and I’m probably in. How do we know you are good for the $10K? Would you limit the entries? Anything over 50 entries and a person wouldn't break even.

Re-read what I typed.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:07 pm

Chukar12 wrote:
cmc274 wrote:Anyone ever seen or heard of a shorthair or brit finishing (or running in) any endurance stakes? Southern, Continental, Free for All?
Rick Smith...Pacolet's Cheyenne Sam

Not only run in it but he won it. A DC to boot. I owned a real nice daughter of his.
Ezzy

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:14 pm

Von zepp,

I remember the ads with rythem n blues but I also remember the ad before the timmy ads with Rockin Rollin Billy,Perhaps I've got the handler wrong but I do recollect a purina ad with a rockin rollin dog.Heck now that I really think about it maybe it was Jane.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:26 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:CC she was the NGDCH but I don't think they seperated them back then I believe they were all listed as NFC.

Gotcha. Luke daughter. Archaic terminology blip. Heard Clown called a lot of things, but never a female.

Thanks for the details.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:56 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:
cmc274 wrote:Anyone ever seen or heard of a shorthair or brit finishing (or running in) any endurance stakes? Southern, Continental, Free for All?
Rick Smith...Pacolet's Cheyenne Sam
Not only run in it but he won it. A DC to boot. I owned a real nice daughter of his.
Ezzy

Not just a DC, he won the National Specialty. He was the National Field Champion and the National Show Champion.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:23 pm

I knew that but didn't think anyone here would want to hear that. We all know conformation champions can't compete in the field.

Ezzy

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:35 pm

I plan to be there in a couple years with my little liver derby..... I'm currently taking applications for a qualified scout.

Jim

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:41 pm

jimbo&rooster wrote:I plan to be there in a couple years with my little liver derby..... I'm currently taking applications for a qualified scout.

Jim

The scout for both the 2012 winners of the National Championship and the AKC NGDC is a Grand Junction resident. Maybe you can look him up.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:46 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I knew that but didn't think anyone here would want to hear that. We all know conformation champions can't compete in the field.

Ezzy

The significance to this thread was that he was under 20 1/2", not the 24 plus inches of most pointers, setters, GSPS, etc. I have seen some 28" GSPs, makes a difference.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:01 pm

Favor,
Did Hoke ever run Quesenberys Ben dog at any of the af trials.R.J. had a good story of ben blowing the doors off one of browns miller pointers,the best part of the story was the pre running comments made by Mrs Brown and how a confimationally correct pointer would show it's genetic prowess in the running department and leave Ben in the dust.Speechless when the stub tail grabbed faster than light drive and crested the big hill leaving the pointer behind.

I've got this photo of Dan and Ben from I think the Oregon or Cascade Open Ch. Sheldon I think will be goin' back to the Nat'ls again with Idaho's Clean Sweep this year - hopefully keep his string of pointing armadillos intact!

(side note: at this same trial my Stitch dog took RU in the AA derby, qualifying him for eternal azz whoopin's in AA Ch's) :

Kuhhhripes, now you've done it...got me diggin' into the files:

Reg. 10 Amateur AA Ch from a few years ago. Another Dunfur dog, Dunfur's Latest Edition - he ate the place up . Herbie's pointer Spectre Pete, the RUCh, competed at the Nat'ls, geez, I think a handful of times at least, won double digit AA Ch's. Tekoa Mtn. Patriot was also in the stake, competed at Ames a time or two, won the Dominion (one of those Ch's even the naysayers would recognize as a biggie)

Reg. 10 Am. AA Ch from this year with a freakin' stubbie crashing the party in the RU spot. Winner Tekoa Mtn. Jettsun I believe just requalified to go back to Nat's again with a recent placement in Cali.

Photo of 'ol Stitchyboy gettin' the nod at the Idaho Open over Murray's Rustler who qualified and ran at the Nat's a time or two. And, what's that, one of the judges, CFB, was an actual judge of the Nat'ls at the time, lives at Ames I believe, marshalls the deal:

'ol Rocky in the winner's circle - of the dogs I've had, he was undoubtedly the best natural AA talent that could compete with the best of 'em of any breed. Died at 4yo. Sad deal. The other dog is Tip Top Dollar, won a bunch of AA Ch's, multiple times regional AA DOY, don't think he ever qualified for Nat's:

Awwright, that's enough...that'll teach ya' to ask me to dig into the memory banks. Sad actually - at least two of the dogs and a couple of the folks in the pics are no longer with us. Hats off to 'em, best buddies, friends and competitors.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:01 pm

Think a quarter horse will ever win the Derby. Think a thoroughbred will ever win a 150 mile endurance race???

Think a stocker will ever win a Formula 1race?? Greyhounds win the Iditarod?? Pointers finish in large pack hare trials??

Who cares??

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:13 pm

JKP wrote:Think a quarter horse will ever win the Derby. Think a thoroughbred will ever win a 150 mile endurance race???

Think a stocker will ever win a Formula 1race?? Greyhounds win the Iditarod?? Pointers finish in large pack hare trials??

Who cares??

+1