Do you hunt your trial dog?

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Stoneface
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Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by Stoneface » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:38 pm

There was a guy I spoke with on this board via PM several months ago who said a pro told him his dog was born with potential for trials, but he'd been hunted too much and wouldn't make a trial dog now (broke AF trials). I was talking with a local pro here about a year ago who also believed for broke dog stakes you never want your dog to see a wild bird once you've started the breaking process and he really didn't care if his trial dogs ever saw a wild bird in their lives.

Two-fold to this question:

First, if you trial what is your poison? What kind of trials do you run?

Second, what is your take on not hunting a trial dog or taking them off of wild birds permanently after letting a season of chasing wild birds get the fired up?
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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by TAK » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:45 pm

I think there is becoming a big shift in what people think about this. Many years ago I knew of people that did not hunt a dog until it was finished. Now days I think they are singing a different song.

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by Gertie » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:51 pm

Yup. And vice-versa :wink:
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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by jcbuttry8 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:57 pm

I think pen raised birds are a lot tougher to work with. Pheasant here in the northeast would rather run all afternoon than fly. Can be real hard on a broke dog.

As for running a broke dog on wild birds, that is how we used to break dogs in OK. A wild bird can do more to train a dog than any of us will ever be able to do. If you get the American Field, just check out how many camps are up in the Dakotas and Nebraska that are pro trainers getting their strings trained during the off season. There are adds all the time for pros that have openings to take dogs north to train on wild birds. I can't imagine that a wild bird would ever do more than help a broke dog. If so, there are a lot of broke dogs getting ruined every year up north. Those same ruined dogs are the ones winning all the championships.

I spoke with Mike Tracy tonight, he is currently in Alabama working dogs on coveys. I believe that is where the derby's get finished every year.

I guess if you have been hunting a dog for a few years and allowing them to break at the wing to retrieve or allowing them to relocate on their own then yes getting them to steady through the shot would be difficult but if trained throughout the process to be steady completely then I can't see how it would be a problem.

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by ultracarry » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:22 pm

Never!!!!!! Well maybe In the morning for a little bit . Placed more since I hunted her anyway.... But then again she did get a fourth....... We had a talk.
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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by cjuve » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:32 pm

There was a guy I spoke with on this board via PM several months ago who said a pro told him his dog was born with potential for trials, but he'd been hunted too much and wouldn't make a trial dog now (broke AF trials).


There is a big difference in the manners enforced by a hunter and the manners enforced by a trialer. I would like to believe that the pro was indicating that the dog has had to many bad habits enforced by a handler that was not trying to keep his dog broke and it would take a serious effort to get the dog finished and once finished you may never be able to trust him to stay broke.
I was talking with a local pro here about a year ago who also believed for broke dog stakes you never want your dog to see a wild bird once you've started the breaking process and he really didn't care if his trial dogs ever saw a wild bird in their lives.
I would venture to bet that if you put his dogs down with a trial dog that has had ample wild bird experience you would be able to tell the difference. There are several different things that show up in dogs that don't have the experience, and a lot of the time they will get placements but someone that knows the difference will see it a mile away. I have seen a few "BROKE" dogs come undone on the wild birds that are on our courses so to not let a dog learn to handle and stay sharp on wild birds is a mistake. If you look at dogs that win and compete in many different parts of the country and are successful, chances are they have ample wild bird experience.


Two-fold to this question:
First, if you trial what is your poison? What kind of trials do you run?
I have only run a few AF open and amature stakes, my take on it if I don't think that I have a dog that is going to win I am not going to waste my money.
Second, what is your take on not hunting a trial dog or taking them off of wild birds permanently after letting a season of chasing wild birds get the fired up
I just spent 3 days hunting behind a dog that was this years RU at the California Pheasant Championship and won the California Open AA Championship why in the world would you think that you need to take them off wild birds?

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by DGFavor » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:02 pm

First, if you trial what is your poison? What kind of trials do you run?
Trial occasionally with my hunting dogs, typically AF championships, wild bird venues...I'm wasn't aware there are other types of trials...??? :wink:
Second, what is your take on not hunting a trial dog or taking them off of wild birds permanently after letting a season of chasing wild birds get the fired up?
In the spirit of Chukar12osophy I give it a firm, boldly stated "stupidest thing I've ever heard". Next question. :mrgreen:

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by slistoe » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:23 pm

I would say I trialed my hunting dogs.

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:15 am

Ditto the above.

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by jetjockey » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:35 am

I'm not sure if I hunt my trial dog or if I trial my hunting dog. Originally I sent her off to a Pro for SD summer camp to be trained and put on hundreds of wild birds that I couldn't do at home. Now she spends 6-7 months on the circuit running ABC AA HB trials. For the most part, she only runs in 1 hour trials as well. I just got her back from Nationals and we will spend the next 2 months killing as many quail as possible before she goes back for the spring circuit. And even though The ABC doesn't require retrieving in trials, my pup retrieves to the MH level...... Most of the time! :-)

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by x Bred Pointer » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:28 am

In the "cover dog " world I would say that 99% of the dogs that run in trials (including championships) are hunted extensively.

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by Stoneface » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:13 am

... why in the world would you think that you need to take them off wild birds?
That's exactly my thought. The trainer the board member spoke to said his dog had been on too many wild birds so he could never be broke to stand through the fall. I thought it was a little on the strange side, but after hearing the second opinion I started to wonder if this was something many people did. I know in dogs I've worked with there has always, always been a marked difference in their performance depending on the amount of interaction they've had with wild birds. The thought of trial dogs not running wild birds actually got me a little scared!
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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:19 am

Maybe "been on too many wild birds" was a polite way of saying the dog wasn't worth breaking.
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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by slistoe » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:19 am

Stoneface wrote:
... why in the world would you think that you need to take them off wild birds?
That's exactly my thought. The trainer the board member spoke to said his dog had been on too many wild birds so he could never be broke to stand through the fall. I thought it was a little on the strange side, but after hearing the second opinion I started to wonder if this was something many people did. I know in dogs I've worked with there has always, always been a marked difference in their performance depending on the amount of interaction they've had with wild birds. The thought of trial dogs not running wild birds actually got me a little scared!
The problem is not with hunting the dog or running on wild birds, but rather reinforcing improper behavior to the point where it is so ingrained that it would be impossible to change without seriously affecting the psyche of the dog.

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by Brooks Carmichael » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:05 am

I hunt all my trial dogs. That is what made them the bird dogs they are today. I prefer hunting quail or prairie chickens with them. Running pheasants are a pain in the backside. Today, I will be taking out trey hunt some prairie chickens and with luck quail. The collar is on them at all times and they are not allowed to get away with anything. They are corrected on the spot. Just my thoughts, sometimes it can drive the trainer up the wall.

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by DonF » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:13 am

slistoe wrote:
Stoneface wrote:
... why in the world would you think that you need to take them off wild birds?
That's exactly my thought. The trainer the board member spoke to said his dog had been on too many wild birds so he could never be broke to stand through the fall. I thought it was a little on the strange side, but after hearing the second opinion I started to wonder if this was something many people did. I know in dogs I've worked with there has always, always been a marked difference in their performance depending on the amount of interaction they've had with wild birds. The thought of trial dogs not running wild birds actually got me a little scared!
The problem is not with hunting the dog or running on wild birds, but rather reinforcing improper behavior to the point where it is so ingrained that it would be impossible to change without seriously affecting the psyche of the dog.
I believe that is the right answer. Handlers of hunting dogs and handlers of field trial dogs have different requirements for the dog's. You spend four months un-doing what took you a year to do. Then after the four months you start over training what you trained in the first place. I had a client years ago that thought his dog was smart enough to recognize the difference in the formats. Then when he got into broke dog stakes he couldn't understand why his dog didn't stay broke. Once he started demanding the same thing in all formats, he did better but was never certain he could get his dog around a broke dog stake. Big problem was NSTRA trials he was running. If you miss the bird the dog can chase it down and you still get credit for the retrieve, the dog is learning to break with the flush or shot. Then you come along and change the rules. I hunted dogs I trialed. Keep them to the tuffest standard you need no matter where you run them. Wild birds are great, they make a bird dog. Trainer's that bounce back and forth between broke and un broke do their dog no service. If you train predominately on with birds, your dog will probably have trouble with released birds. if you train on released birds, your dog might screw up some wild birds but there you are not being judged. Keep your wild bird hunting at the same level as required in a trial. You do that and the wild birds will make your dog, you don't and you screw up your dog!
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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by Vision » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:42 am

Yes I hunt my trial dog and I trial my hunting dog. Always have always will.
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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:18 am

DGFavor wrote:In the spirit of Chukar12osophy I give it a firm, boldly stated "stupidest thing I've ever heard". Next question.
How did I get dragged into something I was taking the high road on? Now I have no choice ... I find myself in brethren with those that recognize that wild bird work is the most fertile of soils. Now here on the http://www., in most club houses, and on some tail gates we are in the habit of over fertilizing. The trouble with second hand information from professionals is they know this...a good many of their hunting clients are on the bird count train, and flying lead is distracting when one is hoping for good timing on their dawg corrections...whether its birds, manners, patterns, etc...I don't think the trainers are objecting to the ideology, I think they are concerned about idiocy...

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by topher40 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:51 pm

I dont see any reason not to hunt your "trial" dog, the handler is in charge of the outcome and wild birds make dogs not pen raised. With a competent handler it doesnt matter if the birds are wild or pen raised, although wild birds can teach so much more than a pen raised.
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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by DGFavor » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:05 pm

Chukar12osophy - if two items are the same, they in fact must be equal, therefore:
I think they are concerned about idiocy...
=
stupidest thing I've ever heard
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too much joyriding on the rails of the bird count train will over-fertilize the most fertile soils because of a fertilizer spill.

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by slistoe » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:10 pm

Made sense to me - should I be worried?

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by ACooper » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:16 pm

slistoe wrote:I would say I trialed my hunting dogs.
This is far more accurate for the majority of folks.

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by Wagonmaster » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:17 pm

I don't see what the fuss is. The NC and I went out with a couple of friends and shot some pheasants in ND last weekend. Cold, crusted snow, and cattail swamps with some difficult retrieves digging them out of the mess. He is getting on in years so it was a little hard on him, but then me too so I took my Vitamin I for a few days after.

If you have access to wild birds and don't run on them when they are too small and can't escape anything, they will practically break your dog for you. The dog quickly finds he can't catch them and gives up trying, so he just stays there. What is that? Oh, its a broke dog.

Seriously, it takes more than that to give a dog all the great manners it needs to win in a broke dog trial, but I don't remember ever having a good dog, trial dog or otherwise, that did not have wild bird work when it was young.

Story that will tell you how important trial quality manners can be in your hunting dog. Some years ago when Spot was about 4 or 5, his handler, Eldon Hongo, told me to take him home and hunt him for a couple of months. Just don't let him break. So I took him out to ND with a friend. We headed across the prairie towards a cattail slough, the dog went over a little hill between us and the slough, and as we topped the hill birds started going out all around it. I had visions of the dog running that slough and taking out the hundred or so roosters we saw in the air. We got to the slough and I was thinking I was in a lot of trouble with Eldon, but at the edge we found the dog. He had stopped to flush when birds started coming out and was just looking bug eyed at all the activity. I tapped him on the head, he moved about twenty feet, pointed, two roosters got up, two shots, two retrieves. I turned him loose, he went 50 yards, pointed, two more roosters got up, two shots, two retrieves, and we were filled out for the day.

If the dog had not stopped to flush, and if he had indeed ringed that slough, every bird would have been gone. We probably started them coming out when we topped the hill. The dog did his job and there were still plenty of birds left for us when we got there.

People who only hunt sometimes think trial manners are artificial. They are not. There is a good, wild-bird-hunting reason for all of them.

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by slistoe » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:21 pm

x2 on the stop to flush. Huns and Sharpies both - it is an essential skill that I and my kind poo-pooed as fluff till I actually trained and ran a dog to that level. I would not call a dog a finished hunting dog without it now. Kind of handy if you want to run a trial as well.

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by bb560m » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:21 pm

As much and as soon as possible! Once broke they must behave that way on wild birds, running pheasants, etc.

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by ultracarry » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:36 pm

Had a few stop to flushes today and its one of those things that are almost as good as pointing :) well almost.
A cross post of my dog this morning standing a covey of 100+ that went up like popcorn in groups of 20 .

Also if a dog is not used to one bird getting up at a time it seems they are far more likely to maintain the style and stay standing with far less pressure which would.be a single bird in a trial setting.
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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by QuillGordon » Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:01 pm

I would never trial my hunting dog. I'm afraid it would imply the wrong message

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by Blue Dawn Kennel » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:15 pm

In the 23 yrs I've been a trainer/handler/scout with my husband (whose been doing training professionally for 30 yrs), we have hunted ALL of our field trial dogs (All Age National Champions included) The dogs know the difference from being ran off of horseback, ran off of foot, ran off of atv/or truck. Our owners of these dogs if they feel they can control them and keep them broke with little breaking they also hunt their dogs. No biggie
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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by ACooper » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:43 pm

Yes.

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by Elkhunter » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:26 pm

Andy pheasants dont count! They are not a "true" upland bird. They just run and there are none in UT... :D

She has a derby placement and hunts a fair bit.
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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by willt » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:37 pm

Keep thinking there are no pheasant in Utah bud. :mrgreen:

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by pointshootretrieve » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:21 pm

There is a whole gaggle of guys who run coverdog trials on wild birds. These dogs don't learn the ways of the ruffed grouse by seeding a field with pen raised quail.

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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by SetterNut » Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:15 pm

For me, I occasionally trial my hunting dog.
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Re: Do you hunt your trial dog?

Post by Fieldtrialer53 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:55 pm

x Bred Pointer wrote:In the "cover dog " world I would say that 99% of the dogs that run in trials (including championships) are hunted extensively.
I can tell you definitively this is tru.

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