Grand Field Trial Champion

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:58 am

Just saw this.

http://images.akc.org/pdf/events/field_ ... Titles.pdf

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:03 am

:roll:
I had hoped they would stop with the show grand championship... Then they add "advanced" to the hunt tests. We should have seen this coming.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:12 am

Another money grab for the AKC.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:32 am

I like that they have to be hour stakes.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:43 am

brad27 wrote:I like that they have to be hour stakes.

I like that it gives people with one or two exceptional dogs an opportunity to keep them visible while also opening up the lower brackets to less experienced dogs. My only complaint is that AFC doesn't apply to DC (at least last time I checked) and many nice dual dogs are amateur owned, trained and handled. As far as money, you certainly get more for your money with AKC than with any other organization and if you don't like them, don't play their games.

Personally, I'm waiting for a seniors only stake because it's going to take ten years for a couple of mine to get their act together.

dead mike · Post by **dead mike** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:43 am

$$$$$ for AKC

dead mike · Post by **dead mike** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:45 am

Cajun Casey, do you believe a dog run under the AKC format is better than the American Field format?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:53 am

dead mike wrote:Cajun Casey, do you believe a dog run under the AKC format is better than the American Field format?

No, I don't believe there is a "better," only a better fit. I have not run an AKC field event in two years. My dogs run in NBHA and other American Field events. However, I don't see the FDSB contributing to health care studies or legislative causes or to education or promoting dog sports the way AKC does. I do not think it is appropriate for anyone who participates in dog sports to be judgmental against others in the sport.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:07 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
dead mike wrote:Cajun Casey, do you believe a dog run under the AKC format is better than the American Field format?
My dogs run in NBHA and other American Field events. .

Really? Which ones?

dead mike · Post by **dead mike** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:07 pm

[/quote]I do not think it is appropriate for anyone who participates in dog sports to be judgmental against others in the sport.
agree

dead mike · Post by **dead mike** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:10 pm

As for AKC contributing more money than the FDSB, well of course. Your comparing a giant registry that will register every breed with primarily a hunting dog registry. The AKC gets most of their money from shows, agility, etc. Almost like comparing mom and pop store to a Wallmart.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:16 pm

If you think it's a useless money grab, don't run your dogs in those stakes.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:32 pm

Gives you a better idea of what dog you would be breeding too by looking at the pedigree. Will give me something other than open limited stakes to run my dog with something else to Chase. We will probably also see more trials dual sanctioned in my neck of the woods. Maybe more pointers will cross over and GSP's cross to AF if your already running the hour.

Should actually be good for all clubs

Brooks Carmichael · Post by **Brooks Carmichael** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:39 pm

We already have one hour stakes in GSPCA Nationals with National Open Gun dog and National All Age. I guess we call them National Champions and Grand Field Champions. This is ridiculous. It is nothing more then trying to get more money in the coffers and means nothing for the future of the breed. I wish once in a while that AKC would contact people out there who run dogs in trials and would contact us before they do something this stupid.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:41 pm

dead mike wrote:As for AKC contributing more money than the FDSB, well of course. Your comparing a giant registry that will register every breed with primarily a hunting dog registry. The AKC gets most of their money from shows, agility, etc. Almost like comparing mom and pop store to a Wallmart.

There is UKC, also, with two pointing and one retrieving organizations under their umbrella. My dogs register with both AKC and FDSB. I like the Field qualify/championship format better than the AKC points/major format. I also intensely dislike the callback to retrieve so much, in fact, that I haven't put my dogs in AKC Hunt Tests.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:42 pm

Wonder how many clubs have the time/man power to run GFC and GAFC?

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:54 pm

ACooper wrote:Wonder how many clubs have the time/man power to run GFC and GAFC?

Good point. More judges, birds, time, etc......

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:00 pm

I'm betting clubs that already run hour stakes will apply with AKC to make those existing hour stakes grand champion stakes also. Clubs that have members pursuing GFC titles will find a way to add an hour stake if possible. The problem I see are grounds, especially in the northeast. Not all grounds can support an hour stake.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:10 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:
ACooper wrote:Wonder how many clubs have the time/man power to run GFC and GAFC?
Good point. More judges, birds, time, etc......

I know they will charge as much as a championship so 150.00 and that 3x the amount of a 30 minute stake. Judges can be paid for, birds are just about the same, they can run 7 hours in a day so that's 14 dogs.... I'm not an expert at math but that's about the same as running 42 dogs in a half hour stake. Clubs will be pocketing 33% more money.....

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:16 pm

ACooper wrote:Wonder how many clubs have the time/man power to run GFC and GAFC?

The basic requirement is to have a venue that supports an hour stake. Then it becomes, what will a club charge? 2x the 30 minute price? 3x and make it a payback stake? I can see this being something that would run on a Friday...but what about someof these events where they might run 100 dogs, one course, in a weekend? Where are they going to find time?

I would have much preferred AKC gone to a 1x/2x/3x/etc FC/AFC designation than this.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:23 pm

The hard part is time and judges that have the time...when you switch a 25 dog half hour stake to a 25 dog hour stake...it takes roughly twice as long. Let me check that.....yep, twice as long.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:43 pm

Chukar12 wrote:The hard part is time and judges that have the time...when you switch a 25 dog half hour stake to a 25 dog hour stake...it takes roughly twice as long. Let me check that.....yep, twice as long.

Joe,

How many people do you know that would be up for an hour? Do you think you'd see a stake of over 10-12? I see this as something that could be done mid-week....between two weekend FT's....call it a Classic.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:49 pm

As far as I know, AKC gets a $35 application fee for a trial and $3.50 a dog recording fee. In turn from AKC you get the trial materials sent to you for recording everything, they keep track of records & points that dogs earn, hand out titles and certificates to the owners, and up grade the titles on a dog's pedigree. It doesn't sound like they are getting rich doing this!!! It sounds more like a service to the dog owners to me. JMO If AKC is making tons of money it must be from something other than trials & hunt tests :roll:

shags · Post by **shags** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:11 pm

deseeker wrote:As far as I know, AKC gets a $35 application fee for a trial and $3.50 a dog recording fee. In turn from AKC you get the trial materials sent to you for recording everything, they keep track of records & points that dogs earn, hand out titles and certificates to the owners, and up grade the titles on a dog's pedigree. It doesn't sound like they are getting rich doing this!!! It sounds more like a service to the dog owners to me. JMO If AKC is making tons of money it must be from something other than trials & hunt tests :roll:

Why does AKC require recording fees for each dog entered in each stake when only the dogs with placements have anything to enter into the database? Big old scam, IMO, and one that puts club profit in serious jeopardy at times.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:25 pm

deseeker wrote:As far as I know, AKC gets a $35 application fee for a trial and $3.50 a dog recording fee. In turn from AKC you get the trial materials sent to you for recording everything, they keep track of records & points that dogs earn, hand out titles and certificates to the owners, and up grade the titles on a dog's pedigree. It doesn't sound like they are getting rich doing this!!! It sounds more like a service to the dog owners to me. JMO If AKC is making tons of money it must be from something other than trials & hunt tests :roll:

Roll your eyes all you want. But the AKC wouldn't do it if they didn't profit from it.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:27 pm

Brooks Carmichael wrote:We already have one hour stakes in GSPCA Nationals with National Open Gun dog and National All Age. I guess we call them National Champions and Grand Field Champions. This is ridiculous. It is nothing more then trying to get more money in the coffers and means nothing for the future of the breed. I wish once in a while that AKC would contact people out there who run dogs in trials and would contact us before they do something this stupid.

You don't think a breed would benefit from having more dogs proving themselves in hour stakes other then once a year championships?

smoothbean · Post by **smoothbean** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:28 pm

Cajun,
Why are you so against the call back to retrieve?

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:29 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:
deseeker wrote:As far as I know, AKC gets a $35 application fee for a trial and $3.50 a dog recording fee. In turn from AKC you get the trial materials sent to you for recording everything, they keep track of records & points that dogs earn, hand out titles and certificates to the owners, and up grade the titles on a dog's pedigree. It doesn't sound like they are getting rich doing this!!! It sounds more like a service to the dog owners to me. JMO If AKC is making tons of money it must be from something other than trials & hunt tests :roll:
Roll your eyes all you want. But the AKC wouldn't do it if they didn't profit from it.

Anything wrong with making a profit?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:32 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:
deseeker wrote:As far as I know, AKC gets a $35 application fee for a trial and $3.50 a dog recording fee. In turn from AKC you get the trial materials sent to you for recording everything, they keep track of records & points that dogs earn, hand out titles and certificates to the owners, and up grade the titles on a dog's pedigree. It doesn't sound like they are getting rich doing this!!! It sounds more like a service to the dog owners to me. JMO If AKC is making tons of money it must be from something other than trials & hunt tests :roll:
Roll your eyes all you want. But the AKC wouldn't do it if they didn't profit from it.

Oh, my God, you mean they might want to make enough money to pay the bills? Really? American Field Publishing Company is a for profit company.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:46 pm

smoothbean wrote:Cajun,
Why are you so against the call back to retrieve?

Because I've seen too many birds either missed or blown into bloody globs.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:58 pm

Call and ask the AF how much money they are making. HA! I have no problem with someone making money at all. But do it with a purpose. Do it to improve the dogs not your back pocket. Can't wait to see this on a ped. GFC/GAFC/AFC/FC/NFC/NAFC/NSDC/NASDC/NGDC/NAGDC Dog.

I guess they will need more money. They'll have to buy longer pieces of paper for the peds. hahaha

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:01 pm

deseeker wrote:As far as I know, AKC gets a $35 application fee for a trial and $3.50 a dog recording fee. In turn from AKC you get the trial materials sent to you for recording everything, they keep track of records & points that dogs earn, hand out titles and certificates to the owners, and up grade the titles on a dog's pedigree. It doesn't sound like they are getting rich doing this!!! It sounds more like a service to the dog owners to me. JMO If AKC is making tons of money it must be from something other than trials & hunt tests :roll:

Right on. Just amazes me how many people have to find fault with anything different or new. Makes sense to me if you don't like it don't participate.

Seems that so many people find it wrong for any one to make any money such as our clubs, AKC, FDSB, and all of the other enities that are performing a service for the complaining individuals,

Ezzy

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:05 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:Call and ask the AF how much money they are making. HA! I have no problem with someone making money at all. But do it with a purpose. Do it to improve the dogs not your back pocket. Can't wait to see this on a ped. GFC/GAFC/AFC/FC/NFC/NAFC/NSDC/NASDC/NGDC/NAGDC Dog.

I guess they will need more money. They'll have to buy longer pieces of paper for the peds. hahaha

The amount of money AKC spends on health research alone is tremendous and something you will never see FDSB contribute to. The money poured into canine lymphoma alone was more than validated when the Epstein Barr link was confirmed, leading to the possibility of a non-Hodgkins lymphoma vaccine. But, maybe you'd need to watch one of your dogs die of that evil disease to appreciate what AKC and its affiliates do with all that money. HAHAHAHA

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:16 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote:Call and ask the AF how much money they are making. HA! I have no problem with someone making money at all. But do it with a purpose. Do it to improve the dogs not your back pocket. Can't wait to see this on a ped. GFC/GAFC/AFC/FC/NFC/NAFC/NSDC/NASDC/NGDC/NAGDC Dog.

I guess they will need more money. They'll have to buy longer pieces of paper for the peds. hahaha
The amount of money AKC spends on health research alone is tremendous and something you will never see FDSB contribute to. The money poured into canine lymphoma alone was more than validated when the Epstein Barr link was confirmed, leading to the possibility of a non-Hodgkins lymphoma vaccine. But, maybe you'd need to watch one of your dogs die of that evil disease to appreciate what AKC and its affiliates do with all that money. HAHAHAHA

Yet they can't find your "ee" thing you keep crying about. Im not saying the AKC is the devil, but sometimes they just do things to pad pockets.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:21 pm

Wyndancer wrote:Joe,

How many people do you know that would be up for an hour? Do you think you'd see a stake of over 10-12? I see this as something that could be done mid-week....between two weekend FT's....call it a Classic

Well, most of the AA people will run an hour stake if they can at Brittany trials, and the Western Shooting dog is probably the biggest western Brittany stake of the year in Oregon. ...and I would frankly like to see AKC have more hour stakes because it does make a separation between average and below dogs and physically/mentally superior dogs. What I don't want to see and the danger in AKC is a bunch of dogs running hour stakes that do not belong in them. Asking volunteer judges to give up weekdays to judge dogs that don't cut it is rude and detrimental, and the AKC breed clubs are supported by a number of folks that don't understand an hour dog (pardon the broad brush please). When I get a say so, I like to get AF judges to look at the classic and championship dogs, they don't see the dogs all the time and their bias' or more accurately the perception of bias is tempered. They get harder and harder to get when you put pottering dogs and poor handlers in front of them.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:29 pm

Joe, the thing is...one can already put on a FT that has 60 minute stake.....is the carrot of the new title going to cause more clubs to find a way to add an hour stake?

And the other point you make...when running an hour one must have consideration for the judges/horses. The, "Well, I paid." doesn't cut it.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:38 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote:Call and ask the AF how much money they are making. HA! I have no problem with someone making money at all. But do it with a purpose. Do it to improve the dogs not your back pocket. Can't wait to see this on a ped. GFC/GAFC/AFC/FC/NFC/NAFC/NSDC/NASDC/NGDC/NAGDC Dog.

I guess they will need more money. They'll have to buy longer pieces of paper for the peds. hahaha
The amount of money AKC spends on health research alone is tremendous and something you will never see FDSB contribute to. The money poured into canine lymphoma alone was more than validated when the Epstein Barr link was confirmed, leading to the possibility of a non-Hodgkins lymphoma vaccine. But, maybe you'd need to watch one of your dogs die of that evil disease to appreciate what AKC and its affiliates do with all that money. HAHAHAHA
Yet they can't find your "ee" thing you keep crying about. Im not saying the AKC is the devil, but sometimes they just do things to pad pockets.

What "ee" thing am I crying about? If you are referring to Mr. Hanshaw's Ace pups, I don't believe your reading comprehension is quite up to par. However, that has nothing to do with higher level titles in AKC and don't you need to pick up your tux or buy bloody Mary mix or something?

Brooks Carmichael · Post by **Brooks Carmichael** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:52 pm

The amount of money AKC spends on health research alone is tremendous and something you will never see FDSB contribute to. The money poured into canine lymphoma alone was more than validated when the Epstein Barr link was confirmed, leading to the possibility of a non-Hodgkins lymphoma vaccine. But, maybe you'd need to watch one of your dogs die of that evil disease to appreciate what AKC and its affiliates do with all that money. HAHAHAHA[/quote]

Yet they can't find your "ee" thing you keep crying about. Im not saying the AKC is the devil, but sometimes they just do things to pad pockets.[/quote]
What "ee" thing am I crying about? If you are referring to Mr. Hanshaw's Ace pups, I don't believe your reading comprehension is quite up to par. However, that has nothing to do with higher level titles in AKC and don't you need to pick up your tux or buy bloody Mary mix or something?[/quote]

Canjun Casey your last comment was un-called for. I may not agree with Elhewpointer statement but let us keep this civil.

Only a very small percentage of dogs that run in one half hour stakes can run in these hour long stakes and look good. Next very few of the grounds out there can support and hour long stake. Remember you can only run at best seven braces a day. I for one would not like to look at a dog that does the job for a half hour then it looks like, well you get the idea. I have seen it and it is not pretty to watch.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:05 pm

Judges can let handlers know their dog is not in contention and may sugguest to pick them up, but if your spending the $100-150 I would expect the handler to know if the dog looks like crap.

doco · Post by **doco** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:29 pm

Kind of up in the air on this one for me. Almost like the idea because there are not enough 1 hour stakes in the Northeast for me to attend. So now what do I do with my dogs that are titled. I don't need to just run them for silk and I'm not looking for Gun Dog of the Year awards.

Next prob is that it is hard enough to get through a weekend stake with the clubs barely covering their expenses. Weekday stakes are out for most amateurs to make due to families, work,vacation, fuel, etc.

Judging becomes an issue unless you find retired folks that have the time to judge the weekend and stick around for the week. Many of our stakes in the northeast are on State Game Lands and are closed to hunters during events.

My biggest Gripe is that any dog can run in these events and earn points towards FC/AFC. These stakes should be closed to all dogs that are not FC/AFC. If your dog is a FC he can only run in the Open Grand event. If your dog is an AFC then he can only run in the Grand Amatuer event. This will eliminate unqualified dogs to ensure that the Judges are not wasting their time looking at dogs that don't belong there in the first place. As a handler, I hate being asked if my dog is broke or if it backs....by my bracemate. These same handlers are going to enter those same green broke dogs in these stakes because they are close. If this NEW Title is supposed to mean something, then make it so it does mean something.

If I lived where 1 hour stakes were the norm, I might feel differently about this new title. But since I have to travel 6-8 hours for the closest weekend AKC Stake, I think I like the idea of a 1 hour AKC horseback stake.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:36 pm

doco wrote: My biggest Gripe is that any dog can run in these events and earn points towards FC/AFC. These stakes should be closed to all dogs that are not FC/AFC. If your dog is a FC he can only run in the Open Grand event. If your dog is an AFC then he can only run in the Grand Amatuer event. This will eliminate unqualified dogs to ensure that the Judges are not wasting their time looking at dogs that don't belong there in the first place. As a handler, I hate being asked if my dog is broke or if it backs....by my bracemate. These same handlers are going to enter those same green broke dogs in these stakes because they are close. If this NEW Title is supposed to mean something, then make it so it does mean something.

Bingo doco!!! You hit the nail on the head. There is the money grab. They want a bunch of dogs to enter. If it was just titled dogs, Id be for it.

shags · Post by **shags** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:42 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Seems that so many people find it wrong for any one to make any money such as our clubs, AKC, FDSB, and all of the other enities that are performing a service for the complaining individuals,Ezzy

I don't know when was the last time you ran an AKC trial for your club, but it seems to me that the VOLUNTEERS from the local clubs do an awful lot to make money for AKC. Hours on the phone or computer trying to line up judges. Meeting with the DNR to set up trial dates, always on a Sunday and a couple of hours away. Calls to ensure a wrangler and decent birds. Committee meetings. Making sure to be available to answer questions from possible entrants. Keeping mailing lists updated throughout the year. Getting to the grounds before everyone else to make sure courses are good and facilities are ready. Staying at the grounds later than everyone else to ensure facilities are left clean and in good repair. Workdays to improve grounds. Dealing with the occasional ignorant or obnoxious entrants in a polite and respectful way. Helping newbies to feel welcomed and at home as well as instructing them on what the heck is going on. Finding someone to work the kitchen, or working it themselves when they'd rather be out watching dogs. Planting birds. Then filling out multiple pages of paperwork accurately and in a timely manner so judges can sign off. Write a check for several hundred dollars in 'recording fees' for dogs that AKC has no idea were even entered. And after all this, you get to run out and make copies of the records and get the originals in the mail within days, or your club will be fined by the very group whose income depends in part on VOLUNTEER labor.

I for one do it because I love the sport, but IMO I'm doing a heck of a lot more for AKC than they are doing for me, money wise. Not all that long ago i called to ask about my dog's FC certificate. Was told he wasn't due one because he only had 17 points toward his FC! My UNPAID VOLUNTEER work pays some of this person's salary. Yet if I make an error on getting paperwork back within a week, or in an entry, my club is fined or at least reprimanded.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:43 pm

Wow... I think this gang would complain about anything new! And especially if it comes from AKC.

There will probably be glitches in the program, there will be tweaking, but I know for a fact a whole lotta thought was put into this new program. It wasn't done for the money (that right there is funny!!!!! AKC may pull in an extra couple hundred bucks for an event)it was done to give our finished dogs a place to play and prove themselves.

Everyone always complains that AKC is just a bunch of 30 min weekend stakes. Here's your chance to run in 1 hr AKC stakes.... do it or don't, but quite bitching about it before it even gets started!
Fuzz

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:47 pm

Only thing I like about it is the hour stakes - really can separate the best of the best.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:09 pm

fuzznut wrote:Wow... I think this gang would complain about anything new! And especially if it comes from AKC.

There will probably be glitches in the program, there will be tweaking, but I know for a fact a whole lotta thought was put into this new program. It wasn't done for the money (that right there is funny!!!!! AKC may pull in an extra couple hundred bucks for an event)it was done to give our finished dogs a place to play and prove themselves.

Everyone always complains that AKC is just a bunch of 30 min weekend stakes. Here's your chance to run in 1 hr AKC stakes.... do it or don't, but quite bitching about it before it even gets started!
Fuzz

Any insight on what a club has to do to qualify to hold these stakes?

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:16 pm

I like the idea. Yes any dog can run but you know the dogs sort themselves out in the hour. I wouldn't worry about non-titled dogs being allowed to enter. They need to be able to run the hour and a lot of dogs can't. If a handler just enters their dog for the heck of it then thanks for the entry fee...you should know better. The way I read it is that a non titled dog cannot obtain this new title by earning points in these trials. The points won in these new trials go toward their FC/AFC. If the dog wins these trials I think it is very deserving to get an FC or AFC title out of it.

The hardest part, like stated above, is getting judges and adequate grounds...especially in the Northeast.

I'm all for this as a lot of hour dogs have a hard time getting finished in normal AKC trials. I think this will benefit those big running hour dogs a lot.

doco · Post by **doco** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:39 pm

remmy wrote:the dogs sort themselves out in the hour. I wouldn't worry about non-titled dogs being allowed to enter. They need to be able to run the hour and a lot of dogs can't. If a handler just enters their dog for the heck of it then thanks for the entry fee...you should know better. The way I read it is that a non titled dog cannot obtain this new title by earning points in these trials.

Exactly Rem....Let's not start something that is going to waste the time of the organizers, the judges, the handlers and waste any TIME at all. The heck with the entry fees. No dif than what Elhew is doing right now with the Invitational. Put Champions on the Ground and "Let em Roll"! The more I think about it, the more I like it. Every Brace should be exciting with proven dogs.

As a side note, there may be a possibility of making NGSPA events dual sanctioned. If your dog is not an FC, then no GFC points. If it is then GFC points. Lots of options if it is thought out properly before the rules are set. Tweek it now while the option is there. Don't make it like the Healthcare Bill and Sign it then worry about it! :roll: :roll: Still my opinion, make the title mean something more than just points earned. Make the title mean....you won against a field of Champions not just a field of dogs!

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:54 pm

Wow! So worried about non-titled dogs. Chloe isn't titled yet and was 4th at the ABC National Open Gun Dog Championship. Maybe we should change the rules so untitled dogs can't run at nationals either....even though she qualified 4 times over, and placed in another hour stake. UGH!

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:09 pm

if a dog can't win against the untitled dogs... so be it!

Do dog that run in NGSPA Championships have to have a title? Do untitled dogs win and thus win their first 1 hr Ch? Don't know, just asking?

How about the pointer championships? What's the criteria for entering them? Not Ames... that one I know, but every other one that runs?

Those who have concerns, or questions that aren't answered on the announcement sheet... why not just pick up the phone and call Doug Ljungren and talk to him about it.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:21 pm

Chloe has also run in a couple of pointer championships (GOD FORBID! A BRITTANY at an AF pointer championship!). The requirements to run are published in the ad in the magazine, but most only require a placement in a weekend trial (it can even be from a restricted stake).