Gun Dog Forum

So there are no field trials this weekend without driving for days. There is however a BDC event at a local hunt club. The owner has been trying to get me to go for a year or so now. I finally gave in and decided to enter my dog in the hunter or amateur division.

So after I shoot a bird (assuming I can shoot and my dog can find) am I really supposed to freeze and send my dog or can I walk back to send her? I can run her with a collar but I would have to nick her to retrieve if I can't walk all the way back.

I know I am at a disadvantage by not letting her break at the shot but just doing it for fun and to support another dog game.

Sorry not up on BDC rules but in this situation in NSTRA you can walk back, tap and release and that is where you must stand. Good luck.

So how did it go? Sorry so late with a answer to your question (been elk hunting) but yes you can walk to your dog and tap him but must wait there for the reteive....
how many dogs was at the event. I was going to go but like i say I didnt get done with the elk hunt till yesterday.....

Small field, no cover to hold birds so they would just run off lol. Had two birds in bag at 3 minutes and should have found the first within a minute. Spectator said he watched that thing leave lol. So she was #2 out of four.

On a side note it will be the last BDC I go to. I was peppered more in that one afternoon than my entire life. Dog work looked horrific and seeing birds get trapped, dogs run circles, creep behind the handler, flush birds wild because they didn't want to point, try to flush the bird (dog), its just not for me. I like watching solid bird work. Dogs wouldn't want to retrieve, walked to retrieve, ehhhh.... Food was good though.

I was also told by someone who thinks they are a BDC god, who runs some ugly French dogs that couldnt be still around a bird if it was hit by a car, that I wasn't allowed to tap my dog on the head.... Did it anyway. also didn't know I couldn't lay an empty, broke open, no shells in the gun, over and under across my foot because part of it touched the ground. Are you kidding me?!?!?

ultracarry wrote:Small field, no cover to hold birds so they would just run off lol. Had two birds in bag at 3 minutes and should have found the first within a minute. Spectator said he watched that thing leave lol. So she was #2 out of four.

On a side note it will be the last BDC I go to. I was peppered more in that one afternoon than my entire life. Dog work looked horrific and seeing birds get trapped, dogs run circles, creep behind the handler, flush birds wild because they didn't want to point, try to flush the bird (dog), its just not for me. I like watching solid bird work. Dogs wouldn't want to retrieve, walked to retrieve, ehhhh.... Food was good though.

I was also told by someone who thinks they are a BDC god, who runs some ugly French dogs that couldnt be still around a bird if it was hit by a car, that I wasn't allowed to tap my dog on the head.... Did it anyway. also didn't know I couldn't lay an empty, broke open, no shells in the gun, over and under across my foot because part of it touched the ground. Are you kidding me?!?!?

All i have ever seen from a few videos of these events sounds like what you are describing, i am surprised you went i know i do not know you but from your dogs accomplishments i can tell what you expect out of a dog.As far as the french dog comment don't go blaming a dog because of his owners ignorance that's just bad manners.

It was one of those things that I juslt like doing with nothing else going on, I also was guiding that morning at the same location.

Not blaming the dog at all, its all the trainer! Same jack that was arguing with the judge about his score.... Just an overall wow for the weekend lol.

ultracarry wrote:It was one of those things that I juslt like doing with nothing else going on, I also was guiding that morning at the same location.

Not blaming the dog at all, its all the trainer! Same jack that was arguing with the judge about his score.... Just an overall wow for the weekend lol.

Did any of the dogs handle birds properly or was it just get them to fly and shoot them, One video i saw the shooter was running and the dog was creeping (well creeping might be giving more credit than is do) it was just chaos, I hope they all are not like that . I was just messing with you on the french comment, we need a little pokey stick smiley face.

All the dogs I watched pointed for about five seconds then the creep began . To the point where is was a rush to pop the bird up, dog almost got shot once..... Not one dog was steady to wing. All just broke the second the bird moved. No one ran but you could see some of the "top competitors" doing a brisk walk. Lol I don't know if that was because they wanted a better time or because they wanted to get to the bird before their dog....

LOl Too funny. I almost got shot at a NSTRA event once. Both the judge and I hit the ground. :roll:

Pretty much the same thing I've seen. I wouldn't want anything to do with one of those dogs.

ultracarry,
Do you field trial or just hunt? What game or games do you play with your dogs?

I hunt chukar, quail, and ducks with Kimber.

We play horseback field trials, AKC hunt tests, and train with the president of the inland empire NAVHDA and a few other members on occasion.

Why do you ask?

I also use her as a guide dog at a hunt club and use her at youth hunts hosted by the DFG and Quail unlimited.

Just wondered it is usually the people that play the horseback game that are the most critical of the tournament format.
I try not to judge to much. I don't play BDC much but do play UFTA.This is a game that anyone can play. For your average guy the tournament format is a way to get your dog out and have some fun. Even if you don't have the time to make a steady to wing and shot dog.
For some folks that are afraid to trial because they think their dogs aren't as good as the dogs of some of those professional bird dog guys, this is a great way to start trialing.
You don't have the politics that are involved with alot of other games. Most of the time the gallery can tell you pretty close what the score is before the compititor even comes out of the field.
As far as the dogs go I think you will find that there are alot of the bloodlines that play your games playing this game. I don't know that it is fair to knock someones dog because it is not "trained" to the standard that you want. There really are some great dogs playing these games.
I know that I could not go to a horseback trial and be competitve with my dogs in the same token a horseback dog isn't going to be able to compete against these dogs. I don't think the horseback trials would be my cup of tea but that doesn't mean I am going slam them rule out learning more about them and going to check them out. Who knows maybe I would get a dog that I think could compete in that game. Heck I had a pointer that wasn't worth a hoot in UFTA trials but may have been ok in horseback. I have a dog right now that i don't think is fast enough for tournament hunting but I think will excell in hunt test and who knows what. We are in the process of moving and I think I will have more opportunities at differnet venues and can't wait to try some other games.
Not trying to start a fire here but we need to all get along to grow our sport no matter what "level" or game we play.

Well your argument may sound valid to someone who has never ran the BDC format, it isn't valid to me.

You can run these formats with an electric collar on the dog. Yes mine will outrun the field in about 10 seconds on a slow day but one command and she will turn and stay in play within the field. Horseback trial dog yes, running son of a gun yes, but ill be darned If I can't make her stay in the field and find birds that are there.

I think you will find people are more turned off by being peppered because someone is rushing to make a shot on a bird so they can win . A straight running dog that won't turn can be released, handler move over, call dog back, send out straight, handler move, etc. Come on man I hear you but I can easily make a horseback field trial dog work that field.

I agree the peppering is a serious issue. In the UFTA it is an immediate disqualification if someone gets shot. Needless to say it doesn't happen very often. There are a few differences between the different tournament hunting organizations. UFTA does not allow E-collars.
I do know some guys that run BDC and a very competitve and hard to beat. For the most part their dogsare steady to shot. They do not get any points for a trapped bird . I do feel it is very sloppy to shoot bumped birds, even if there is a point deductuion.
I wish you were closer I would like to invite you to one of our trials. I haven't seen to many of those dogs able to handle in the small fields. I know of a few big runners that when they are on and under control they are very hard to beat but
We have some guys that have even tried with NSTRA dogs that have struggled because they are so used to a foot race to the back of the field. There is too much time burned up with a dog just running. You need a fast bird finder to compete. Also it is a team effort between dog and handler and if the handler can't shoot you are not going to palce very well.
I also agreee that if your birds are not there you can't find them and have been burned by that several times. It is unfortunate that some clubs may not be as set up and prepared for a trial as they think.
Again I am looking forward to learning more about different venues once we move and hope to try out some other events with my dogs. I am thinking maybe hunt test might be more for me than some other trial venues because I don't know if I can stomach the politics.

In nstra the dogs that run to the back of the field every time before they start looking for birds are not going to be the best ones. I want the dog that's looking for birds the second I turn them loose, but still covering ground. Personally, I have no interest in a dog that works in gun range the whole time and never touches the boundary of a 15 acre field. Does ufta judge the quality of dog work at all or is it just a timed event.

Timed, no style points.That is one thing that I think appeals to the average hunter. Now I am not saying that none of the dogs have any style because there are some great dogs and alot of our members are just as much about style as the NSTRA guys.
Retrieves are either full, partial or no retrieve.It doesn't matter how far or how difficult the retrieve is. Of course if youre not getting full retrieves your more than likely not placing. That is the thing I like the score is black and white no opinions involved.
Also like I said before if you can't shoot you are not going to place either. In the UFTA you get six shell for a three bird run. If you use all those you are done even if you don't bag your three birds. Ideally you would shoot three shots and bag three birds then you get 5 points per shell not used added to your score.
Also if you move four birds in your run that your dog has "worked" you are done even if you don't bag your three birds in that run. Therefore if youdog won't point and gets too close and he bumps a bird can put you out of the competition.

One bonus to the UFTA the winner of the open division at the National Finals gets $10,000 and there are ten places paid. Plus even more top finishers get their entry money for the Nationals back.

I have not ran any other organizations so I am interested in what they payback at their National Finals? I may start a new topic and try to find out what other organizations pay back.

While I see how such a game could be fun ad entertaining to the average hunter, I fail to see how a game that does not judge quality of work is beneficial for the furthering of hunting dog lines. Is it fun? I'm sure it is. But there is no way I would consider making a dog part of my breeding program based on their accomplishments in such a format that does not truly seek to improve hunting dog lines.

Huh?? I think that a large part of the dogs that play those games are just that "hunting dogs". Do I think that every hunting dog can can rise to the top of this game? I think not. Just like all the other formats there are some that are better suited.
Do you think that just because a dog comes from breeders that play one particular game that every dog he/she produces is going to excell at that game? I think not.
How many dogs do the elite trainers go through to find the "one". Lots of culls there I am sure.
I have heard in some games that it is better to only find one or two birds but look pretty doing it. Does that mean it is ok to breed dogs that have inferior noses? This would decrease the odss of finding too many and screwing up on them.
Or what about those games that the dog doesnt ever see a bird get shot let alone have to retrieve it. Is that what you would breed to have great all around hunting dogs?
Maybe I am confused?

Romeo what birddog games do you play?

Don't for one second think that AF AA and SD don't retrieve because the game doesn't require it......you'd be mistaken.


You can't slight the dogs in any game because their owners don't train well or expose the dogs to various things not required by a particular game.


To breed or not to breed, thats another question....and we know people breed dogs all the time that haven't proven themselves.....

THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!! birddog 1968

"You can't slight the dogs in any game because their owners don't train well or expose the dogs to various things not required by a particular game."

I couldn't agree more

smoothbean wrote:Huh?? I think that a large part of the dogs that play those games are just that "hunting dogs". Do I think that every hunting dog can can rise to the top of this game? I think not. Just like all the other formats there are some that are better suited.
Do you think that just because a dog comes from breeders that play one particular game that every dog he/she produces is going to excell at that game? I think not.
How many dogs do the elite trainers go through to find the "one". Lots of culls there I am sure.
I have heard in some games that it is better to only find one or two birds but look pretty doing it. Does that mean it is ok to breed dogs that have inferior noses? This would decrease the odss of finding too many and screwing up on them.
Or what about those games that the dog doesnt ever see a bird get shot let alone have to retrieve it. Is that what you would breed to have great all around hunting dogs?
Maybe I am confused?

Romeo what birddog games do you play?

I'll try to answer in a clear manner to get all my thoughts on the page.

I play the NSTRA game. I don't believe it is the end all be all bird dog format without flaws. I don't believe that could be said about any format actually. But I do believe that it seeks to further improve hunting dog lines by judging and taking into account several facets of what in my opinion makes a quality bird dog. The quality of the dog's work is scored (Style, intensity, retrieve, ground coverage, obedience, backing, and bird finding ability are all judged and rewarded accordingly).

Again, I don't believe this to be the end all format, but Iike the type of dogs that excel in this game typically which coincidentally make good hunting dogs me. In my opinion, in order for a format to be considered to showcase and produce quality dogs that further lines it must consider and judge the quality of the work of the dog's competing in it, and distinguish the exceptional from the bad.

Please understand I am not saying UFTA or BDC should be done away with, or that people shouldn't play in it if they find it enjoyable. But it is not a legitimate proving ground for the quality of the dogs or furthering and improvement of lines because it does not make an effort to seperate quality dog work from bad or even average. No you can't slight the dogs because their owners don't have them trained to a given level, but you cannot say they are proven either. It's the same way when I'm judging a dog. I can't judge what I cannot see. So even if it is the owner's fault for not training or exposing their dogs to what I would want to see out of the dog, I still can't judge whether it is what I would consider a quality dog and wouldn't be interested in it in any manner.

I hope this answers your questions.

smoothbean wrote:Huh?? I think that a large part of the dogs that play those games are just that "hunting dogs". Do I think that every hunting dog can can rise to the top of this game? I think not. Just like all the other formats there are some that are better suited.
Do you think that just because a dog comes from breeders that play one particular game that every dog he/she produces is going to excell at that game? I think not.
How many dogs do the elite trainers go through to find the "one". Lots of culls there I am sure.
I have heard in some games that it is better to only find one or two birds but look pretty doing it. Does that mean it is ok to breed dogs that have inferior noses? This would decrease the odss of finding too many and screwing up on them.
Or what about those games that the dog doesnt ever see a bird get shot let alone have to retrieve it. Is that what you would breed to have great all around hunting dogs?Maybe I am confused?

Romeo what birddog games do you play?

Maybe you should spend a little time training with some of these dogs and then you could get a little better sense of what it is about. Then you can base your comments on what you have seen rather than what you have heard.

Finding only 1 or 2 birds is not exclusively or even primarily a product of how good a dogs nose is.

Chukar12 wrote:Finding only 1 or 2 birds is not exclusively or even primarily a product of how good a dogs nose is.

No, but you have to admit there are such things as "bird finders", which is a desirable trait.

Of course I wouldn't argue that

What's a "bird finder"?

Some one who FINDS birds 4 sale on the INTERNET !!!

ultracarry wrote:What's a "bird finder"?

A dog that has a knack for finding a lot of birds. Even in tough conditions.

I have watched BDC televised competitions. I can respect the venue. It is a different game thats all. A game where time is an issue....Good nose is a must. Biddable dog a must....A dog that is allowed to break on the shot speeds up time...Alot of hunters TRAIN there dogs to break on the shot as well, however we do not because we play a different game.
I am glad we were not very opinionated when we were shopping for our first shorthair. We bought her from a competitive Tournament Hunting breeder, who does UFTA as well as BDC. She is a FC AFC & MH...and has produced dogs that are competitve in every venue. I think a great dog can do almost any venue if trained to do so. A game may not be your game but lets not discredit other choices. If you dont have anything good to say why bother.... :roll:

Raven I agree with you a great dog is only hampered to what it's capable of by it's training ( tranier) I stated that in another thread a while back & got hammered for it.
But I guess you know I've been hit in the head with a hammer a TIME or TWO before!!

raven34 wrote:I have watched BDC televised competitions. I can respect the venue. It is a different game thats all. A game where time is an issue....Good nose is a must. Biddable dog a must....A dog that is allowed to break on the shot speeds up time...Alot of hunters TRAIN there dogs to break on the shot as well, however we do not because we play a different game.
I am glad we were not very opinionated when we were shopping for our first shorthair. We bought her from a competitive Tournament Hunting breeder, who does UFTA as well as BDC. She is a FC AFC & MH...and has produced dogs that are competitve in every venue. I think a great dog can do almost any venue if trained to do so. A game may not be your game but lets not discredit other choices. If you dont have anything good to say why bother.... :roll:

I don't disagree with anything you said and I think you misunderstood my post. I'm not saying good dogs cannot come from these type of events. I'm saying that because quality of the work is not a judged factor and it is simply a timed event a Dog's success in these type of venues do not tell me enough to feel comfortable saying I'd want a pup from that dog or would want to breed to him. It doesn't further the quality of dog lines because it doesn't judge quality of work is all I'm saying.

I couldn't agree more raven34. You have proved that our dogs can compete in other venues. That is what we need, more folks playing other games with these dogs.It seems to me that there a to many people that discredit some of our dogs because they don't like the game. There are lots of great dogs no matter what the game.
It is too bad that our dogs are looked own because we don't want them as broke for our game.

I was talking to Don Duele today, him and his son placed 1st 3rd and 6th in the UFTA Nationals, think they brought home some where around $17,000 for their efforts. Pretty sure he is just fine with his dogs bird work even if he can't recall exactly what is in the pedigree!

Garrison wrote:I was talking to Don Duele today, him and his son placed 1st 3rd and 6th in the UFTA Nationals, think they brought home some where around $17,000 for their efforts. Pretty sure he is just fine with his dogs bird work even if he can't recall exactly what is in the pedigree!

What's your point? Glad he enjoyed it, but it doesn't disprove my point about it not being a legitimate proving ground, or further improving lines.

Dogs and dog games come in all shapes and sizes for a reason. Finding and paying for like minded people to either agree or disagree with your assement of your own dog by way of Ribbons or Prizes has more to do with validation than legitmacy. Legitimacy can not be found in any of the games, because individual opinions differ so greatly. Liking what is hunting in front of me is legitimacy to me.

You guys can make feel good camp fire posts all day long, but I've already stated how I feel about it with good reasoning and logic. If you didn't read my previous post explaining my position I can see where you might misinterpret what in trying to say, but its a legitimate point that anyone would have a hard time refuting and I've not seen anyone here actually address the points I made. Just a couple of feel good warm fuzzy posts.

In the end, everyone go play the games with your dogs you enjoy. Just understand that if your game does not differentiate the quality from the garbage, it is not a proving ground for dog quality at all. There's more to a quality dog than just finding three birds fast in a small field loaded with birds. Enjoy your dogs everyone.

We could all use more campfires and feel good stories! But that has nothing to do with you feeling good about your NSTRA pursuits, which by the sounds of it you so desperately need. I personally don't play any of the aforementioned games, but I can say with 100% certainty that NSTRA is the best place for you and your dogs, but detracting from others doesn't strengthen your successes and failures In NSTRA. What it really boils down to is wanting to feel like our opinions matter to others, they usually don't unless you are with people that have the same opinion.

Garrison wrote:We could all use more campfires and feel good stories! But that has nothing to do with you feeling good about your NSTRA pursuits, which by the sounds of it you so desperately need. I personally don't play any of the aforementioned games, but I can say with 100% certainty that NSTRA is the best place for you and your dogs, but detracting from others doesn't strengthen your successes and failures In NSTRA. What it really boils down to is wanting to feel like our opinions matter to others, they usually don't unless you are with people that have the same opinion.

Again, you misunderstand by post, and if you can't acknowledge that any format which does not make an attempt to judge and differentiate quality dogs and dog work from shoddy dogs and dog work is lacking when being considered as a proving ground for producing quality dogs then you have your head so far in the sand that neither I or anyone else could help you.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't good dogs in those events. I'm simply saying the format does not judge quality and is lacking if being considered a proving ground for quality dogs. I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings but its the truth.

Again, you misunderstand by post, and if you can't acknowledge that any format which does not make an attempt to judge and differentiate quality dogs and dog work from shoddy dogs and dog work is lacking when being considered as a proving ground for producing quality dogs then you have your head so far in the sand that neither I or anyone else could help you.

Ithink everyone has a tendancy to confuse a good dog with a well trained dog. AND THE RESULT IS THAT UNLESS THE DOGIS TRAINED TO A STANDARD YOU LIKE IT IS NOT A QUALITY DOG. The reason certain dogs win at any format has little to do with quality of the dog and a great deal to do with a dog that can do the things that win and does them well because they are well trained.

Ezzy

I disagree, there are a lot of venues you need a very talented dog, that is also well trained to be successful. The perception that I am getting of BDC, have only seen a few clips and never witnessed is that you can be successful with a mediocre or worse dog that isn't well trained either. That is not to say a talented dog and or well trained dog can't be successful. I agree with Romeo, a BDC championship tells less about the quality of that dog then some other venues do.

Each of my three setters is imperfect...I like it that way.
For it allows my own imperfections to be a bit more muted in tone.
Reckon when they get in a group, do our dogs rate us as hunters as we do them?
Probably not, as they surely have better things to do and better spots to place value.

ezzy333 wrote:

Again, you misunderstand by post, and if you can't acknowledge that any format which does not make an attempt to judge and differentiate quality dogs and dog work from shoddy dogs and dog work is lacking when being considered as a proving ground for producing quality dogs then you have your head so far in the sand that neither I or anyone else could help you.

Ithink everyone has a tendancy to confuse a good dog with a well trained dog. AND THE RESULT IS THAT UNLESS THE DOGIS TRAINED TO A STANDARD YOU LIKE IT IS NOT A QUALITY DOG. The reason certain dogs win at any format has little to do with quality of the dog and a great deal to do with a dog that can do the things that win and does them well because they are well trained.

Ezzy

Its not about i only consider dogs trained to a certain standard good dogs. Its more a matter of if the format does not judge based on anything but time is not a very good indicator of the many aspects that make a good dog. Other formats at least attempt to cover these aspects. These purely timed events make no attempt to address these qualities. Only one of which is judged as part of these type of formats. Quality dogs win the events in which all these aspects are considered. Not sure how you can argue that.That's how lines are developed and improved.

Mountaineer wrote:Each of my three setters is imperfect...I like it that way.
For it allows my own imperfections to be a bit more muted in tone.
Reckon when they get in a group, do our dogs rate us as hunters as we do them?
Probably not, as they surely have better things to do and better spots to place value.

What's your point? That we shouldn't even have or participate events that judge dogs? You do realize that's how the lines you most likely hunt we're developed and improved right?

romeo212000 wrote:

Mountaineer wrote:...What's your point? That we shouldn't even have or participate events that judge dogs? You do realize that's how the lines you most likely hunt we're developed and improved right?

My point is, at some point, this mind-numbing discussion that arises at a point every year or month or week has no point as it is all about each individuals point of view....rather than the wonderful quality of any dog's point.

Yes I do realize.
I prefer my setters from Coverdog lines and two were washouts that have made outstanding birddogs.
I thank field trialers at nearly every opportunity for what they develop and the depth of knowledge they bring to most things birddog....especially thanks to Old Uncle D(i)ck at Needlepoint.
The 2012 Grand National Grouse Champion Uncle Buzzy was Chip and Needlepoint in large measure.
OK?

Mountaineer wrote:

romeo212000 wrote:

Mountaineer wrote:...What's your point? That we shouldn't even have or participate events that judge dogs? You do realize that's how the lines you most likely hunt we're developed and improved right?

My point is, at some point, this mind-numbing discussion that arises at a point every year or month or week has no point as it is all about each individuals point of view....rather than the wonderful quality of any dog's point.

Yes I do realize.
I prefer my setters from Coverdog lines and two were washouts that have made outstanding birddogs.
I thank field trialers at nearly every opportunity for what they develop and the depth of knowledge they bring to most things birddog....especially thanks to Old Uncle D(i)ck at Needlepoint.
The 2012 Grand National Grouse Champion Uncle Buzzy was Chip and Needlepoint in large measure.
OK?

Didn't realize we weren't allowed to discuss dogs and dog trials on a gun dog forum. Mea culpa.

Spin my comment as you wish as I indeed do not have to read a thread.
However, there reaches a ...point...where little positive is occurring but a pimping of a personal ox.
As you can discuss what you wish, the tradeoff is that I may decide to comment on my take of the discussion....I trust that you will bear up under that burden.

The funny part of those saying that these tournament dogs do not measure up to their standards is that some of these dogs come from the very lines that you are so high on. So in a sense you are bashing your own people. LOL! I personally know guys that are running NSTRA bred dogs as well as a few horseback dogs.
I also agree with EZZY that people are confusing a good dog with a well trained dog. You can train a lot of things but some the dogs just has to have.
Again the key is training for the game being played.
Much can also be said for handlers as well, a great handler can make a mediocre dog look good as well as a poor handler can not let a great dogs talent show.

romeo212000 wrote:While I see how such a game could be fun ad entertaining to the average hunter, I fail to see how a game that does not judge quality of work is beneficial for the furthering of hunting dog lines. Is it fun? I'm sure it is. But there is no way I would consider making a dog part of my breeding program based on their accomplishments in such a format that does not truly seek to improve hunting dog lines.

I would say that the dog that finds the most birds, allows the hunter a shot within shooting range and completes the retrieve tells me more about the dogs worth than having a judge look at a dogs tail and give it a rating and use what he perceives as style to place the dog. To each his own, I'll take the tangible over the intangible.

Most trial/test organizations have less to do with a dogs ability and more to do with the owners preference.

BDC does not do it for me, but to each his own.