two part question?

GSPinROCH · Post by **GSPinROCH** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:53 pm

Does anyone know if it illegal in MN or WI to use dogs to recover dead or wounded deer. I do know its illegal to hunt deer with them, but I was unable to find a definite answer on the DNR's website on the subject. And the second part is later once a dog is close to being finished on birds is worth it or hard to train him to track a deer?

Thanks,
Chris

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:13 pm

wanna get your dog shot? i don't know what the law is, but a dog running loose in the woods that time of year would not exactly be safe.

if the law says that it is illegal to use dogs in the "taking" of deer, it means you can't use them at any point, not to find, not to kill, not to track after shot.

GSPinROCH · Post by **GSPinROCH** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:22 pm

okay, well let me ask this the DNR asks that you try to find the deer at all means necessary. And the DNR are the only ones allowed to shoot and kill dogs "at large" if they are found to be chasing deer. I guess my question was if they were handled in a way that would allow you to track a wounded deer or to find a dead deer w/ cc a leash blaze orange on? something I dont know. I know other states do allow it.

I am sure it's a rhetorical question about my dog being shot so I wont answer that.

I was just wondering if it was legal or not in our states, b/c its legal in others to find down deer w/ aid of dog

chris

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:40 pm

it is not legal in Minnesota. the use of a dog to track a wounded deer is considered the use of a dog during the "taking" of a deer. the view of the DNR here and in most states is an enforcement issue. if they find someone in the woods using a dog to hunt deer, that person would invariably say that they were "just tracking a wounded deer" if that use of the dog was permitted. so in most states, any use of the dog is illegal.

as far as shooting a dog is concerned, what difference would it make if the shooting was legal or not legal, if your dog is dead. and the shooter is nowhere in sight? or if the shooter said "I thought it was a deer, it was brown and moved like a deer," what is a warden or sheriff going to do then? the rightness or wrongness of it does not much matter if your dog is dead.

we have 600,000 hunters in the woods on opening day. a small number of accidental shootings of humans occur every year. what chance do you think your dog is going to have?

keep it safe. keep it out of the woods. don't give some yayhoo an excuse to pull the trigger.

GSPinROCH · Post by **GSPinROCH** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:45 pm

ok point well taken, you answered my question on the legality of it.
thank you,
chris

cumberland · Post by **cumberland** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:34 am

There is some good discussion on blood tracking deer on a long leash on www.kurzhaar.us

There is also a book out called Tracking Dogs for Finding Wounded Deer that is very useful and the new edition includes a discussion of all of the state game laws.

I think John's reaction is a little off. Actually most states allow leashed dogs to be used to recover wounded deer. Also the proper method for recovery would not be to turn your dog loose to run through the woods. I encourage you to research it further.

Travis

Bird Dog 67 · Post by **Bird Dog 67** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:46 am

It's illegal in Wisconsin to use a dog in any aspect of harvesting a deer.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:07 am

cumberland wrote:There is some good discussion on blood tracking deer on a long leash on www.kurzhaar.us

There is also a book out called Tracking Dogs for Finding Wounded Deer that is very useful and the new edition includes a discussion of all of the state game laws.

I think John's reaction is a little off. Actually most states allow leashed dogs to be used to recover wounded deer. Also the proper method for recovery would not be to turn your dog loose to run through the woods. I encourage you to research it further.

Travis

Travis, you are correct. The common method of blood tracking uses a really wide collar or a harness and the dog is leashed. The goal as I am reading it is to have you dog work very slowly and deliberately sniffing out the wounded deer, not tear off after who knows what. Also I read, in the book you refer to, which is the most reccomended book out there for this subject, that most experienced blood tracking dogs can easily tell the difference between a healthy deer scent and a wounded deer scent. If you give us a year or two I can tell you more

The book stresses starting the dog very young, but I would possibly question this. I have a lab that I that I think would take to it easily if trained.... and I may try to do this after I see how the training works in the younger guy.

I'll check the book and see what it says about the legal issue.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:23 am

Wagonmaster wrote:it is not legal in Minnesota. the use of a dog to track a wounded deer is considered the use of a dog during the "taking" of a deer. the view of the DNR here and in most states is an enforcement issue. if they find someone in the woods using a dog to hunt deer, that person would invariably say that they were "just tracking a wounded deer" if that use of the dog was permitted. so in most states, any use of the dog is illegal.

Well, just based on memory, in NY for example you have to get a "leashed tracking dog license" to use your dog for this. So if they found you in the woods with you dog leashed and tracking and you had a license for this, then you are safe with the law.

People do shoot dogs, and that is yet another reason why I would reccomend keeping the dog on leash....

okay after looking it up these states allow leashed tracking prior to 2005....
Alaska, Arkansas, Delaware, Illinois, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Missouri, Nebraska, New York, Ohio, Vermont, Wisconsin

in all but NY, Maine, and Alaska you are NOT permitted to carry a firearm at night. There are other details to each state and I do not see minnesota on the list

It's a touchy subject but I think you will see more of it in very controlled legal ways eventually.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:44 am

PS not to fuel any arguments, and don't want you to think I am jumping on you Roch, but in MN there is an extra problem. For part of the year it is legal for anyone, warden or not, to shoot a dog found chasing a deer. This may have been changed in the last year or two, because it was pretty controversial. Dogs get shot, "it was chasing a deer" is the excuse. The problem, though, is that the very existence of the law created a mentality that you could shoot a dog and get away with it. People who think like that don't bother with niceties like what time of the year it was permissible and what time it was not. They just shoot and like I said, it is not much comfort if the dog is dead, whether the shooter was legal or not.

My personal practice for several decades, since the numbers of deer hunters sort of exploded in the 60's, is to keep the dog out of the woods during deer season. In any event, a loose dog will find lots of gut piles to roll in, so it is a mess for a couple of weeks anyway, until the yotes have done their clean up.

Stay safe. Keep your dog safe. That is my motto.

cumberland · Post by **cumberland** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:44 am

It's illegal in Wisconsin to use a dog in any aspect of harvesting a deer.

okay after looking it up these states allow leashed tracking prior to 2005....
Alaska, Arkansas, Delaware, Illinois, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Michigan, Missouri, Nebraska, New York, Ohio, Vermont, Wisconsin

There is a difference between using dogs to harvest (shoot) game and using dogs to recover game that has been harvested and most DNRs are becoming aware of this.[/b]

SteveB · Post by **SteveB** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:08 am

I agree with Travis. Our dogs are bred and trained for blood tracking and we can set up mock tracks anytime but deer season is the only time we can legally work on the real thing. While it is illegal in OK to "pursue deer with dogs", it is not illegal to take a walk in the woods with your dog on a leash and no firearm (I'm talking about private land, I don't hunt on public land).
The game wardens here that I've dealt with are pretty reasonable and I've found that if you ask them about these "gray areas" they'll tell you how they interpret them. If you've taken the time to call or visit them with your questions regarding the game laws they usually see that you are doing everything you can to obey the laws, and that you are one of the good guys.
You can train a dog to track blood at anytime and if it's worth it to you, go for it!

Steve

Kurzhaar · Post by **Kurzhaar** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:18 am

I was told by several DNR officials in Iowa the following "There's nothing illegal about walking your dog on a leash in the woods without a gun".

Jim

Trapper · Post by **Trapper** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:27 am

Kurzhaar wrote:I was told by several DNR officials in Iowa the following "There's nothing illegal about walking your dog on a leash in the woods without a gun".

Jim

Makes sense.

GSPinROCH · Post by **GSPinROCH** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:36 am

Look, I was asking the question b/c I hunt just about everything and yes there has been times that I swear that I shot that deer good and no blood trail, but wait one speck about the size of a dime and thats all you have to work with. So now that I have a "versatile dog" why not use it to its potential I realize MN, and WI have a bazillion hunters but if orchestrated correctly(like after dark? when season is over?) I believe a deer carcass could be recovered on my own land with my dog. with a leash or any other means as long as undercontrolled supervision,that everyone else has been talking about. does that sound unreasonable? I mean I am defenintaly green to the GSP world I will give you that but I am not to the hunting world I havent posted many pics of my hunting ventures but would like to share last years deer harvest. this is my best friend and I after opening day. I am the one to the Left in Carharts.

There are four deer in the pic so look hard.
Thanks
Chris

Trapper · Post by **Trapper** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:47 am

I think I would be worried about the issues that may arise WRT the dogs main purpose and that's finding birds. It may create off game chasing problems.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:42 pm

Roch, you can do what you want. I am just telling you what the situation is in MN. Call your local warden.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:00 pm

Easy answer here...don't go deer hunting. Can't imagine why anyone would give up a good weekend of bird hunting with thier friends (two legged and four legged) to go sit in the woods with a bunch of yahoos that shoot at anything that moves.

I always enjoy going to another state to chase birds when deer season opens here in Minnesota. Feel much safer. The only fear is when you are coming home on Sunday night and see droves of people in orange with guns pushing fields or woods right next to the interstate where I'm driving.

Gdogger · Post by **Gdogger** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:45 am

I've heard numerous times that it is legal to track wounded deer with dogs in Wisconsin as long as you're not carrying a weapon. I believe you may have to get permission from the local DNR first. As far as the dog getting shot, I wouldn't worry about that too much. You must have your dog on a leash at all times while tracking. Just use your common sense. If they area has a lot of hunters then have the dog wear an orange vest or don't go at all.

In some states there are licensed trackers with trained dogs that can be used for a fee. I don't think that is the case in Wisconsin though. Just call the Wisconsin DNR and ask. That should answer your question.

-Greg

Trapper · Post by **Trapper** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:19 pm

original mngsp wrote:Easy answer here...don't go deer hunting. Can't imagine why anyone would give up a good weekend of bird hunting with thier friends (two legged and four legged) to go sit in the woods with a bunch of yahoos that shoot at anything that moves.

I always enjoy going to another state to chase birds when deer season opens here in Minnesota. Feel much safer. The only fear is when you are coming home on Sunday night and see droves of people in orange with guns pushing fields or woods right next to the interstate where I'm driving.

I haven't carried a rifle in the woods since I got my first dog (of my own) 12 years ago.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:16 pm

i hung up the rifle too, years ago, after a few incidents of bullets whizzing over my head or family members. opening weekend is kind of a zoo here. i go chase birds.

larue · Post by **larue** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:10 am

mngsp,you are welcome to come to my trial grounds and kill a few of them &*^ deer,we are in the cwd reduction area and we have plenty of deer to shoot!
I have not hunted them for a few years,but we get a few guys out here
who do,now the ducks who make the mistake of coming into our ponds,
I gladly give my shorthairs something to retrieve,nothing like a trial gsp
retrieving ducks from water.