ex: navda,nstra,af,akc hunt test, or akc trial)

lockhart52 · Post by **lockhart52** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:26 pm

I will be getting a pup soon and not really sure which field to work. (ex: navda,nstra,af,akc hunt test, or akc trial) I like the fact that navda has support with training, as i am very green and would could use all the help that i could get. on the other hand i am a competitive person and feel i would enjoy the field trials. what do you play and pro and cons.... if you will

thankz

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:52 pm

My game is nstra.

Pros: I love the competitive side of this game, but the people are generally great too. I like the fact that judging of the dog is based on a scoring system that includes judging of the quality of the point, retrieve, ground coverage, obedience, and backing, with an emphasis placed on the dog's ability to find birds while being braced against another dog. I like the fact that the birds are shot and each individual piece of work is scored. To me it seems to be geared more towards the foot hunter. With the scoring system being what it is you have some human component, and a component that can not be affected by human preference.

Cons: A dog has to be able to handle tons of pressure in this game and take it in stride. Not all dogs are especially broke in nstra. Your dog will have to be able to deal with walking birds, unbroke dogs stealing point or taking out birds in front of yours and so forth. Sometimes the best dog doesn't always win the field that day. A dog may finish second with superior work to the winning dog because it had 4 birds and the winning dog had 5. There's nothing perfect about this game or any other game, but with some emphasis being placed on the dog's ability to find birds while taking into account the quality of the dog's finds, retrieves, and other qualities I've mentioned I feel like it offers a good evaluation of the dogs.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:53 pm

What kind of dog and where is it coming from?

lockhart52 · Post by **lockhart52** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:59 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:What kind of dog and where is it coming from?

I am actually waiting to pick. I want to have a soild plan befor I get one ( trainer,what lines, and breed) I have been looking and britt and gsp. I also have goin to a few hunt test and will be going to a navda training day here shortly

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:09 pm

Okay.

My game is NBHA trials, and I use a pro trainer because of time and space constraints. My dogs have also entered in AKC walking trials. I have done AKC hunt tests in the past and may again. Availability is a huge factor for me.

Pros. The dogs have to perform at a high level of training, have style and look busy. No retrieving.

Cons. I run against longtailed dogs with my GSPs. I don't have the time or space to train and keep my dogs as broke as they need to be, so I have to pay for that.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:09 pm

Why choose one? You can have a dog that is successful in multiple venues. Dogs are generally more limited by their owner then their own ability.

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:25 pm

I've been involved in NAVHDA for eight years or so, and NSTRA for the past two. Both are great organizations, but in my experience, NAVHDA would probably be the better resource for help in learning how to train and handle your dog, as that is more of their focus. I was fortunate in getting involved in a great chapter, where I found experienced folks who were very willing to lend me a hand. I'd recommend starting out with them, maybe getting your dog up through a UT, then giving NSTRA a try. Even though NAVHDA judges the dog against a standard rather than other dogs, it's still competitive in the sense that you'll obviously want your dog to score as highly as possible. If you're like most of us, test day can be a little nerve-wracking, as you'll have invested a fair amount of time and a few dollars to get there, so there's plenty of excitement in that regard.

NSTRA is obviously more competitive in the dog vs dog sense, but it's a bit of a numbers game, so to be successful in it, figure on traveling for quite a few trials each year, as opposed to NAVHDA's typical one test per year. I've found NSTRA folks to be equally friendly, in spite of the more "competitive" format. Most NSTRA people are pretty serious about their dogs, but are also able to laugh at themselves when the wheels come off, as they often do. In my case, I have to travel five or more hours for their trials, so NSTRA can quickly become a fairly expensive pursuit if I want to attend many trials. Four dollar gas and a truck that gets 8 MPG pulling a camper is not a great combination, but I still always felt that it was worth every penny, even when driving home without having my dog's name make the board on that weekend.

You'll have a lot of fun at either NAVHDA tests and NSTRA trials, your dog will get on birds during months outside of hunting season, and you'll make some good friends. In my part of the country, almost every NAVHDA or NSTRA enthusiast is also an avid hunter, so you might end up with some new hunting partners through your involvement with either organization. If you've been following recent threads on this forum, you've found trialers who snub testers, testers who are critical of trials, and even a hunter or two who can't tolerate either. You really need to try each organization out to find out if it's for you. Keep an open mind, don't get too frustrated if things don't go quite as planned early on, and be sure to listen and learn from the more experienced handlers.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:41 pm

ACooper wrote:Why choose one? You can have a dog that is successful in multiple venues. Dogs are generally more limited by their owner then their own ability.

The owner's finances, location and goals usually take precedence over the dog's ability in my experience.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:43 pm

IMO....If you want to play games, choose the one that floats your boat. If you are going to be hunting a lot as well, choose the game that helps you develop the dog you will need for how you hunt.

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:44 pm

ckirsch wrote:I've been involved in NAVHDA for eight years or so, and NSTRA for the past two. Both are great organizations, but in my experience, NAVHDA would probably be the better resource for help in learning how to train and handle your dog, as that is more of their focus. I was fortunate in getting involved in a great chapter, where I found experienced folks who were very willing to lend me a hand. I'd recommend starting out with them, maybe getting your dog up through a UT, then giving NSTRA a try. Even though NAVHDA judges the dog against a standard rather than other dogs, it's still competitive in the sense that you'll obviously want your dog to score as highly as possible. If you're like most of us, test day can be a little nerve-wracking, as you'll have invested a fair amount of time and a few dollars to get there, so there's plenty of excitement in that regard.

NSTRA is obviously more competitive in the dog vs dog sense, but it's a bit of a numbers game, so to be successful in it, figure on traveling for quite a few trials each year, as opposed to NAVHDA's typical one test per year. I've found NSTRA folks to be equally friendly, in spite of the more "competitive" format. Most NSTRA people are pretty serious about their dogs, but are also able to laugh at themselves when the wheels come off, as they often do. In my case, I have to travel five or more hours for their trials, so NSTRA can quickly become a fairly expensive pursuit if I want to attend many trials. Four dollar gas and a truck that gets 8 MPG pulling a camper is not a great combination, but I still always felt that it was worth every penny, even when driving home without having my dog's name make the board on that weekend.

You'll have a lot of fun at either NAVHDA tests and NSTRA trials, your dog will get on birds during months outside of hunting season, and you'll make some good friends. In my part of the country, almost every NAVHDA or NSTRA enthusiast is also an avid hunter, so you might end up with some new hunting partners through your involvement with either organization. If you've been following recent threads on this forum, you've found trialers who snub testers, testers who are critical of trials, and even a hunter or two who can't tolerate either. You really need to try each organization out to find out if it's for you. Keep an open mind, don't get too frustrated if things don't go quite as planned early on, and be sure to listen and learn from the more experienced handlers.

Great posts. Keep in mind also that not everyone who talks like an experienced handler is an experienced handler.

TraditionsGSPs2010 · Post by **TraditionsGSPs2010** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:45 pm

ACooper and Ckirsch pretty much covered it. Do as many as you have time for and remember that they all bring a little something different to the table. If you are still in the learning/investigation phase, you might try heading out to a couple of local events to see what they are like up front.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:06 pm

If your choices are Britt or shorthair, you have lots of options. You can do Navhda with a GSP and be right at home because probably half the foks in Navhda have shorthairs. You can do Navhda with a Britt also. Not quite so many britts do Navhda, but there is no reason why you cannot.

You can do AKC Hunt tests with either dog and be very much one of the group, as there are plenty of each breed doing hunt tests.

You can also do AKC field trials with either dog , walking or horseback and once again, be one of many who do.

You can do NGSPA field trials with a GSP, which are an American field sanctioned horseback field trials that are breed restricted.
You can, of course run either breed in American Field or US Complete Shooting Dog Assn trials, as they are always "all breed" trials.
I believe NBHA and ABHA are also open to all breeds, but I am not sure on that one. Most AF all breed trials are dominated by pointers and setters. If you watch a few stakes, you will see why.

Which, if any of the games you choose to play out of your universe of possibilities will be dictated by the dog you get, and what YOU want to do with it....much more than anything else.

After hunting for quite a few years, I started out doing walking shooting dog stakes and moved to horseback shooting dog and all age stakes...although I have been known to still walk a brace or two occasionally. I find it to be very challenging for me personally and very motivating for me as a trainer. The kind of dog I enjoy hunting over is , and always has been, a hard running, hard hunting, fiercely independent dog, so the transition to field trials was not that much in the way of culture shock. If you are not ready for that kind of dog, field trials might not be the best fit.

Getting started in field trialing is and will be a very humbling and occasionally frustrating experience if you do not have someone to help you get up on the learning curve. Field trials can be very aggravating to a person who HAS to win, because...even at the very highest levels, with the very best of dogs and equipment, you lose a whole lot more than you win. Twenty dogs entered in a stake means 19 losers. For someone who is used to winning, that can be very difficult to deal with.

Field trialing and doing hunt tests can be quite addicting, and it can get expensive as well as consume a huge portion of your available leisure time. I think they are great fun, but it is better that you know what you are getting in to.

RayG

lockhart52 · Post by **lockhart52** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:59 pm

thank you for all the information that everyone has giving me, it really helped.
has anyone trained and passed NAVDA test and done field trails with the same dog?

CHJIII · Post by **CHJIII** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:00 pm

Excellent post RayG!

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:23 pm

ACooper wrote:Why choose one? You can have a dog that is successful in multiple venues. Dogs are generally more limited by their owner then their own ability.

+1

Charlie

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:33 pm

CHJIII wrote:Excellent post RayG!

x2

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:24 pm

lockhart52 wrote:thank you for all the information that everyone has giving me, it really helped.
has anyone trained and passed NAVDA test and done field trails with the same dog?

I have a pointer that's been through NAVHDA, and I've tried my hand in a handful of NSTRA trials with him since. Haven't taken home any NSTRA hardware yet, but to be honest that's probably been more my fault than the dogs. There's a bit of a learning curve in the trials, and I've made some handling mistakes that cost us. It's an adjustment for the dog as well; at one trial, the fields were full of potholes that were crawling with ducks. My NAVHDA dog kept forgetting about quail and embarking upon duck searches, which didn't help us much. I couldn't really fault the dog for it, as he'd been doing duck searches, blinds, and double-marked water retrieves over the previous year, in preparation for NAVHDA tests. I encountered more than a few other NSTRA handlers who also run NAVHDA. Some NSTRA folks might tell you that most NAVHDA dogs won't run enough for NSTRA, but I've not found that to be the case. I've had a great time in both organizations, and made some good friends along the way.

Regardless of the breed you end up with, your options remain open. I don't see other pointers at NAVHDA events, but my dogs have done fine in them. My chapter is about 90% wirehairs, so we're a distinct minority there, but nobody seems to care. As Ray mentioned, Brits are also rare in NAVHDA, although I've never really understood why. GSP's and Brits dominate the numbers of the NSTRA trials I've entered.

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:19 pm

ckirsch wrote:
lockhart52 wrote:thank you for all the information that everyone has giving me, it really helped.
has anyone trained and passed NAVDA test and done field trails with the same dog?
I have a pointer that's been through NAVHDA, and I've tried my hand in a handful of NSTRA trials with him since. Haven't taken home any NSTRA hardware yet, but to be honest that's probably been more my fault than the dogs. There's a bit of a learning curve in the trials, and I've made some handling mistakes that cost us. It's an adjustment for the dog as well; at one trial, the fields were full of potholes that were crawling with ducks. My NAVHDA dog kept forgetting about quail and embarking upon duck searches, which didn't help us much. I couldn't really fault the dog for it, as he'd been doing duck searches, blinds, and double-marked water retrieves over the previous year, in preparation for NAVHDA tests. I encountered more than a few other NSTRA handlers who also run NAVHDA. Some NSTRA folks might tell you that most NAVHDA dogs won't run enough for NSTRA, but I've not found that to be the case. I've had a great time in both organizations, and made some good friends along the way.

Regardless of the breed you end up with, your options remain open. I don't see other pointers at NAVHDA events, but my dogs have done fine in them. My chapter is about 90% wirehairs, so we're a distinct minority there, but nobody seems to care. As Ray mentioned, Brits are also rare in NAVHDA, although I've never really understood why. GSP's and Brits dominate the numbers of the NSTRA trials I've entered.

In nstra you'll see all kinds of breeds, but mostly plenty of the main 4 EP's, gsp's, setters, and Brits. Depending on where you run you may see one breed more prevalent than others. Lots of setters in west Texas, almost no brittneys in Oklahoma, etc.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:51 am

If you join and train with NAVHDA, and you allow your dog his head early one in his or her life. You will be able to do them all with the right dog.

I first belonged to NAVHDA as my first bird dog club. Still belong.
Then I started with AKC and the MH program to help me and my dogs for the VC test.
Then after the VC test started with NSTRA,
Then the AKC Open Gun Dog. You may not these are not handled off Horse back all walking events.

If your dog is birdy and likes to run and you can train and develop, you will be able to do anything or any venue: well the all age and western shooting dog stuff takes more run than NSTRA, NAVHDA, and AKC MH and Gundog.

My point is don't worry train your dog to its highest level and you will be able to participate in what ever event you wish, you may even have a dog with the wheels and mind set to be out there 500 to 800 yards. If you did your work right you will have developed an honest bird dog.

P.S.
Just to expand on what CKIRSH said about NAHVDA and NSTRA and the run.
I heard the same thing on the east coast. I believe that has less to do with the dogs than the event and more with the handlers/trainers not trusting and not letting their dogs have their heads because they are worried that their dogs will fail the test. Some times, inexperienced trainers have a tendency to over train, over handle a young pup, and over talk a pup to death. They also have a tendancy to plant birds close by in the training drill which will have a tendency to make a dog a bit sticky. Not saying all but You see it at the training clinics in NAVHDA when the owner of a pup is worried that their dog won't point or wont come back, etc. They constantly are hacking on their dog to get them to a bird or to keep them close. Don't do that .

Enjoy.
Rick

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:11 am

Been there done that. Here is my experience, doesn't mean it will be right for you, just what I learned for me

If you think you would enjoy trialing or any type of event that is competitive, I suggest you get as involved as you can now. Go and watch, offer to help at an event, talk to people and most of all- GET OUT THERE AND WATCH THE DOGS!

Find a NAVHDA group near you and go to training days, but if you want to trial your pup, be careful of whom you allow to work your dog. NAVHDA is very big on obedience and too much, too young could take the steam out of your puppy. IF you want to trial him as a youngster, don't put too much pressure on him with absolute obedience. Sure teach him manners and such, but allow him to be a puppy. Keep that wild child side of him intact.

If you want to trial, find someone in that sport to help you! If you decide you don't want to trial, you can always back the puppy up and change courses with him. But once you take the fire out... it's tough as the devil to get it back in!

If you do stick with NAVHDA enjoy it as that group will help you make a good dog out of him. Just remember they are looking for a different type of partnership with the dogs... not better,, not worse, but different.

IMO, the more you watch all the different venues out there, the more you can learn about training and dogs. You may decide you like one more then the other, or that your dog is more suited for one more then the other. Horses for courses... use his talents to his best advantage!

I did them all, but waited till my dog was finished in his FT career to go and do the UT work... that worked for us.

Fuzz

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:34 am

lockhart -

I strongly recommend that you go to several different types of events in your area this coming fall. The only way to decide what it is you want to go for is to see it for yourself and get the full flavor of it. That is the only way you can really make an informed choice about which direction(s) you wish to explore with your dog.

I say..in your area...because things can be different from place to place.

For example:
I used to live in NJ and was witness to a decent number of Navhda training sessions and tests over the years. The Navhda folks trained at the same WMA that I often trained at, so our paths crossed occasionally. I was struck by the insistence of most of the trainers that the dog perform in a rigidly prescribed manner under the trainer's total domination. Considering thee type of dog I prefer, I was not motivated to join. More recently, I became acquainted with a Navhda training group here in DE. The average trainer here is much more willing to let the dog "have their head" and seem to want to develop a dog that "wants" to cooperate.

As has been previously mentioned, different competitive events look for different kinds of performances from their dogs. Many individual pieces of the performances will be similar, but some things, like(especially) ground application and responsiveness level can be markedly different between venues.

Where you think you wish to go can make a difference in how you bring your youngster alsong and that can affect how that youngster ultimately turns out.

For example, if you start with a youngster and gear your training toward a more "controlled" type of competition, such as Hunt Tests, it may well be more difficult for that dog to "expand their envelope" in the future if you decide that field trials are what you want to participate in. The old saw that: "You can reel 'em in but you can't push them out". is often quite true. Once a patern of performance is established, it is more difficult to change that pattern of performance.

Go see what you think you are interested in and make your own choices for yourself and your youngster.

Always remember that it is supposed to be fun...for both of you.

RayG

High Voltage · Post by **High Voltage** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:22 am

lockhart52 wrote:thank you for all the information that everyone has giving me, it really helped.
has anyone trained and passed NAVDA test and done field trails with the same dog?

We got our 1st GSP when he was 10 months old. He had his puppy derby point, 2 legs of JR Hunter & just got his NAVDHA NA Prize 1, 112. I put the last 2 legs of his JR Hunter on him before he turned 1 & ran him in field trials while he was a pup. The only reason we did not continue in FT was the $$. He just needs a couple more passes for MH, more handler then the dog and is a UT pz 3, again handler. I have a friend that has GSP's that are NAVHDA VC's that are also FC & MH.

lockhart52 · Post by **lockhart52** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:53 pm

it seem like I should FT before NAVDA. from what i am learning NAVDA may hold the dog back in the FT circuit. The main reason i wanted to do NAVDA was to be apart of the community and learn more about training, but i do not want it to hinder the dog on the FT circuit. my pup is most likely to come from high power FT lines, as most of the top breeder in the area have those lines. which is fine, I have no desire for the bench work.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:19 pm

Only if you allow it. It is all in how you train. All of the field work you will learn will also need to be part of your FT training and competitions. To slightly less extent in NSTRA.
Rick

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:55 pm

Ruffshooter wrote:Only if you allow it. It is all in how you train. All of the field work you will learn will also need to be part of your FT training and competitions. To slightly less extent in NSTRA.
Rick

Both Ruff and Fuzz have given you some good advice, even though it might seem contradictory. The fact that you will be selecting a pup from strong field trial lines should allow you to do it either way. I say this because the high level of drive and desire and the predispostition to have a wide ground application will very likely remain with the dog even if it is kept under fairly tight control as a youngster.

There are some lines of dogs(in just about every breed) that do not have the level of desire, or the predisposition to run wide that is usually present in field trial breeding. Dogs of this type are more likely to have their hunting pattern be permanently affected by pulling them in at a young age. Soooo, you have to be more careful how you train this type of dog.

Several VERY successful field trial trainers in my area keep their youngsters on a VERY short leash, figuratively speaking. The want the dogs RIGHT THERE until they are very sure that they can be trusted. Only when the dog is responsive and reliable is it allowed to "stretch its legs".

There is a professional dog trainer, who runs another gundog chat board, who had his roots in Continentals and Navhda. He currently had a dog that is an Open All Age dog that is eligible to run in next year's National Championship at Ames. That same dog was trained and tested in Navhda before it was put on the "circuit".

So, if you know what you are doing and have the right dog...anything is possible.

RayG

larue · Post by **larue** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:08 am

As a guy who did put 4 prize 1 ut scores on my max dog,and then run field trials,and put an fc on him with horseback akc and af wins I can say this.
The hardest thing for a utility dog to learn in a field trial is to pattern differently and to not check back.
The reality is that in navhda,your dog is taught and judged to cover the entire field,in other words to quarter the field and the birds are also planted in the middle of the fields.
While in trials,the birds are planted on edges,and your dog is expected to stay on these edges and to not check back but to hang out in front for you.
If you run a dog who runs a nice gundog pattern in navhda,expect to be told to handle your dog alot,and expect his coop score to be hit,maybe hit alot,depending on the judges.
If you run a quartering dog in trials,expect to not win the blue ribbon often,unless no other dogs get around.
This is the inherent reason navhda and nstra,and hunt tests tend to fit together,they pattern the same. only field trials pattern a dog on edges,and to hang out there.
If i were going to do it again,I would run trials first and then at about 8 years old I would go play navhda,unless the dog was still running at nationals.
I ran max in navhda first,put his mh on him,then at 4 started trialing him.I really believe he could have had a great chance at a national title had I started him in trials first,he got his first placement at 4 and his last trial placement at 12 1/2.

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:20 pm

I don't doubt there is some merit to what Larue shared, but I'd hate for new handlers to avoid NAVHDA for fear that it will take all the run out of their dog. As Ruff and Ray mentioned, most of that is determined by the dog's genetics and training. As some of you know, I ran an AA-bred pointer though NAVHDA tests, and as expected, he ran bigger than the typical NAVHDA dog, but I never heard a word about if from any judges, and his cooperation scores were 4 all the way through the Invitational. My field judge at the Invitational called me after the test to tell me that he had enjoyed watching the dog run big, and was impressed with how well it handled. I'm sure there are some NAVHDA chapters and judges out there who frown on bigger-running dogs, but fortunately for me, the SD chapter is composed of hunters who don't have a problem with run.

A few months after the Invitational, I entered my first NSTRA trial, and the dog's find, ground coverage, and obedience scores were among the highest in the 32-dog field. I realize that won't impress any horseback guys, but it would at least indicate that the dog's range was not too adversely affected by the NAVHDA training. I spend a few weekends hunting with NAVHDA buddies each fall, and their wirehairs aren't shy about covering ground, either. I ended up with a dog that will hunt within twenty yards if conditions warrant that, but will stretch out to 4-500 yards on the prairie. I'll never run a horseback trial, so I'm pretty satisfied with what I've got.

My original advice to the OP to get through NAVHDA before trying NSTRA was due to the fact that the vast majority of NSTRA handlers don't have their dogs steady through the fall, so it might be more difficult to steady a dog up for NAVHDA tests after it's been breaking at the flush for a while in NSTRA trials. Larue's perspective on getting the dog into AF/ AKC trials first makes sense, given that it would then already be steady if you wanted to start NAVHDA. NAVHDA has a reputation of providing training resources to new handlers, but a person might have an experienced AF or AKC mentor who could get them up to speed for trials as well. I suppose a lot of it depends on the opportunities a person has available to them.

zzweims · Post by **zzweims** » Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:49 pm

Check out several different types of events, then consider the following (in no particular order):

1. What fits YOUR personality? (competition, tests, hunting, horses, etc)
2. what fits your DOG'S ability? (nose, retrieve, range, speed, temperament, etc)
3. where do you feel most welcome/supported?
4. what's convenient geographically?
5. what can you afford?

Aline

larue · Post by **larue** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:24 am

ckirsh,let me clarify again.It is not a range issue in af/akc field trials vs navhda it is a application of where the dog will run or its pattern that makes it hard for a dog to switch gears.
A dog can,and dogs do win alot of field trials with 150 yard range,if the dog runs were it should and stays forward consistently.This is not too big or navhda by any means,but in navhda
test a dog who is glued to the edges of the field will get called back into the middle of the field.
There are certainly traits bred into dogs that allow a dog to be a good navhda or field trial dog,but training has as big if not bigger part.
Patterning a dog to run how and where you need it to win or get a good score is a huge part of what we do with a young dog,if we realize it or not.
In a nutshell it is this,where a dog finds birds is where he will hunt.
So when we take that 4 year old navhda dog who has spent his entire life hunting in the middle of fields,we must retrain him to get on edges and stay there,if we want to win consistently.
Can it be done,absolutely but it is easier to take that 4 year old field trial dog and handle him back to us,to run him in navdha.
If you noticed I did say that nstra and hunt tests work well with a navhda patterned dog,as they use the same type of field and the same planting as navhda,it is only akc/af trials that are different.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:52 am

My recommendation would be to run NAVHDA NA and then go field trial. Steady the dog, get the backing reliable, retrieving. You can still be doing your water work in the warm weather once the dog will bring things to hand. After you are done with trialing, you may have to "polish" up the retrieving, but it should not be hard to get the dog ready for the UT and hopefully the Invitational.

I am not in complete agreement with those that contend that dogs can't adapt to running the edges and working the grass. I believe dogs recognize situations and take their cues from the stimulous around them. If we give a dog enough chance, it learns that when we drive an ATV it can run farther to the front but when we are on foot it must adapt the range. The question is whether we have the time to train it in the grass and still condition it to find birds in the hedgerows. After year in ND, my dogs will hunt the CRP but when we come near a shelter belt they will make a bee line to the cover. I will bow to those of greater experience on the subject, but if keeping a dog on the edges was of paramount importance, how would we take the dogs hunting on the prarie??

For me, the biggest difference between NAVHDA and trialing is the amount of obedience and most start this at a young age. I would think the curve on obedience and handling would be more gradual in FT....developing desire and allowing more independence being more needed for the game. A lot of Vdog handlers could profit from the same approach.

An afterthought...one of the biggest drawbacks to NAVHDA training days is planting birds on 5 acres and then taking the dog out to work them. I am convinced that we unknowingly are producing "short" searching dogs. This would be very detrimental to developing a dog with a strong forward search.
Sometimes we need to be aware of what we are conditioning while we are teaching.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:43 am

There is a great deal of wisdom and practical experience evident in each of the last two posts, from larue and JKP.

RayG

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:55 am

JKP wrote:An afterthought...one of the biggest drawbacks to NAVHDA training days is planting birds on 5 acres and then taking the dog out to work them.

WOW, not all NAVHDA training days are run on a 5 acre field or 5 acre bird field. I've yet to see a field that small used for a training day. Not saying some don't. most I've seen are run on 40 to 80 acre fields.

romeo212000 · Post by **romeo212000** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:22 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
JKP wrote:An afterthought...one of the biggest drawbacks to NAVHDA training days is planting birds on 5 acres and then taking the dog out to work them.
WOW, not all NAVHDA training days are run on a 5 acre field or 5 acre bird field. I've yet to see a field that small used for a training day. Not saying some don't. most I've seen are run on 40 to 80 acre fields.

Glad someone else finally sees this. How does one expect to create a high drive bird dog when you condition to do just the opposite?

lockhart52 · Post by **lockhart52** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:40 pm

Everyone is really me to see the big picture, thank you for that.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:58 pm

Lots of good info here. I too recomend NAHVDA if you train to there highest standard you will able to compete in any off these venues if you have enough dog. Im running this fall for a VC. Have already completed MH and if i pass the VC will be doing FT next. You can go as far as the dog can take you. You here the myth that NAVHDA dogs are close working. I'm sure sum are but mostly the dogs i train with are not . If I let mine roll they will hunt at 500yds plus. If it wasn't for NAVHDA teaching how to train i would be no were at all. Just have fun man no matter were you end up

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:35 pm

I think the NAVHDA people them selves cause some of the questions about wether or not NAVHDA dogs run enough for trials,as they are the ones that argue if you want a dog to run in NAVHDA to bye from NAVHDA lines or breeders that breed for NAVHDA.I believe most try discourage dogs from FT lines.
I believe that the owners limit their dogs more then as to wether they come from FT lines,NAVHDA Lines,Etc. does!

But what do I know,because I don't believe my dogs have limits only their trainers.
JMO

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:21 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I think the NAVHDA people them selves cause some of the questions about wether or not NAVHDA dogs run enough for trials,as they are the ones that argue if you want a dog to run in NAVHDA to bye from NAVHDA lines or breeders that breed for NAVHDA.

I think this could be called supported the dogs and lines built from your own venue. You hear the same from trialers. Door swings both ways.

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I believe most try discourage dogs from FT lines.

Some do some don't!!! With the Americanized breeds such as GSP were seeing more of a influxed of trial blood. EPs running have been trial bred.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:15 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels Being a NAVHDA a guy i would say your right the trainer can really limit the dog, but you also can only go as far as the dog will take you. You cant teach prey drive or heart its breed the same for both games its either in them or its not. As they say a good dog is a good dog no matter what the breed same goes for bloodlines. The only differents in the two lines if there is any would be the water work. In NAVHDA your not going far if you don't have a dog that performs just as well in water as in field. You can train for it but you can't always make them luv it inless its in them.NAVHDA game just asks more from the dog it takes alot more training. As for me My guys can do both at vary high level. I do my best not to limit them in training. I dont want a dog just that can get a title. I want a dog that gets the title running on the edge like driving a fine tuned racecar that handles. I want my runs and tested to be remember my the judges. Hope this helps clear up the gray areas. its all good in fun

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:48 pm

Water work? I have shown pics & videos of my dogs hitting the water like labs & you won't find any more trial bred.My dogs are also natural retrievers wet or dry.Up untill a few yrs ago what GSP was the TOP Producer of NAVHDA titled dogs & what lines did he come from??

I stand by what I posted dogs are limited more by their trainers & owners then themselves.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:19 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I have shown pics & videos of my dogs hitting the water like labs & you won't find any more trial bred

Hitting water the just the begining. Next they got to rip the pond apart searching for the loon!!!

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Up untill a few yrs ago what GSP was the TOP Producer of NAVHDA titled dogs & what lines did he come from??

Must be talking Saddle Tramp (Cecil) He produced dogs that did well in every venue.
That's why we bought Cage . Mom FT linage, line bred Saddle Tramp.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:24 pm

Don't have to search TO HARD for the LOON I'm standing on the bank!!

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:47 am

Back to the question asked. navhda is probaly the best place for a new guy to learn how to train a gundog just shy of going with a pro. Then you can decide which venue to run. personaly my self i don't want trained dog from a pro. Good luck its all fun with the dog

lockhart52 · Post by **lockhart52** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:33 pm

Hattrick wrote:Back to the question asked. navhda is probaly the best place for a new guy to learn how to train a gundog just shy of going with a pro. Then you can decide which venue to run. personaly my self i don't want trained dog from a pro. Good luck its all fun with the dog

I have a well known GSP pro trainer about 20min from me and I planed on going to him once a week and then the group day with NAVHA. I will train on my own but I dnt own land and it about a 30min drive to a wild life public dog training field.( We can not use it in hunting season to train) home training will be limited. I am looking for other places to train. I hoping that I will me people close to me that know other places to work the dog.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:45 pm

I've seen a couple of really nice Navhda dogs who could run Horseback FT's no problem. It's more (IMO):
1. What you start with (genetics)
2. How you decide to train (techniques and tactics)
3. How far you want to train them.

I see no reason why you couldn't do both. Just be prepared to make some concessions here and there. Compromises.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:31 pm

well said

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:41 am

I think I posted that dogs are more limited by their owners then themselves.I just talked with my trainer/handler this morning Chris Goegan,his wife bought a female pup from me out of Star's first litter.
Her reg name is Hi-Points Catch Me If You Can,call name Trout she recieved a prise II NAVHDA title 1 point shy of prize I & this litter I would say is pretty much strong Field Trial bred litter.
They are talking about putting a UT title on her,I brought this up only to prove my point & that is dogs are Limited more by their owners then themselves.I will post the pedigree below & you can draw your own conclusions.This only makes the 5th dog from my breeding & lines that I'm aware of that has been tested in any venues & so far 4 of those 5 have been successfull at there chosen venues.AKC FT(Walking & HB),NSTRA,& NAVHDA
My Storm still has yet to prove himself out of those 5 but he has all the tools & in a few months I'll know more but I'm expecting very good things from him.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:41 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Trout she recieved a prise II NAVHDA title 1 point shy of prize I & this litter I would say is pretty much strong Field Trial bred litter.
They are talking about putting a UT title on her,I brought this up only to prove my point & that is dogs are Limited more by their owners then themselves

Ted, there are many dogs FT bred dogs out there that would do well in NAVHDA. I know of a few dogs that are FT bred that have VC titles. Brenda Roe will be testing her DC Sam Man at the invitational this yr.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:08 am

Tammy I'm well aware of that,like I said the dogs are more limited by their owners then themselves.Some in this thread wanted to argue that point that's all this was about on my part.
Brenda's dogs have proven they can do well at any venue they are trained for plus have the conformation to do well in the show ring & I commend them for it.It takes time,finances,& a great deal of dedication.
I have a great deal of respect & admiration for what they have accomplished.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:37 pm

I agree with those that said visit the different venues. When I first started getting interested in getting a pointing dog I thought a WPG or GWP were what I wanted. I grew up with retriever and knew almost nothing on pointing breeds so I looked at NAHVDA, NSTRA, AKC (hunt test and field trials), and AF sanctioned trials. It didn't take long for to realize that what I was originally thinking didn't match what I wanted in a pointing dog. I then changed my thought process and focused on GSPs, Brittanies, English Setters, and Pointers as they seemed to better fit my needs. It wasn't until I went to my first Cover Dog trial when I realized which breed was for me. Once I figured the breed I wanted I spend a lot of time figuring out where I was going to get my english setter from. If I hadn't spent time looking at the different breeds and different types of dogs within those breeds I probably would have ended up with a dog that didn't match what I was looking for.