Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by JKP » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:30 am

Of course there are many good hunting dogs that would not make competitive field trial dogs, for one reason or another.
I 'm sure many here will agree with this. There seems to be the overwhelming opinion that hunting dogs are second class...that only trialing is the proof of the pudding....and without competition ...well, not worth mentioning!!!

Great dogs handle the difficult work consistently.....handle grouse on windy days....stand well off the sharpies because they know the difference/situation....relocate and pin the running rooster on their own....and leave nothing dead or wounded on the ground no matter how difficult the retrieve. I am sure all of us could add more to this list. None will show this without our patience...taking them out on wild game and giving them the chance to learn. I have watched trial bred dogs in ND run like the wind for a few days, run by cover, and otherwise beat feet ... but with each day they started to figure it out. I would say that without that experience, they would not become the best hunting dogs. I took my hillside grouse dogs to Florida once and they looked lost for two days....but they came around when they stopped running to the thickest cover and started cruising the open ground under the pines. We all train, compete, test, etc....and afterwards I do think we need to confirm that a dog is really a good hunting dog too. But we have to give a dog time...
I have seen many dogs from good trial and test "pedigrees" that were not the best hunting dogs. Most would get the job done....but to find great hunting dogs you have to hunt enough so that they run up against the tough conditions. Any dog can point a quail in a hedgerow, a rooster on the roost, or a juvenile grouse in the browse.

Titles and scores should never become surrogates for performance....but they can be a valuable as a part of the package. Personally, I would never buy a dog from a kennel where the dogs are not being proven on wild game. I am also less likely to buy dogs that require pros to handle them.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:39 am

Thank you,

I have doen a fair bit of guiding myself, and prior to starting the field trial game I hunted between 40-50 days a year almost exclusively for wild chukar in the desert. With my trialing obligations I am now down to closer to your numbers. Don't you find it discomforting to argue with a point of view that you have no experience in (please excuse me if I am wrong maybe you have participated in trial venues, I might have missed that)? Don't misunderftand me, I don't begrudge your difference in opinion but the overt rudeness from a basis of ignornace is embarrasing, and uncomfortable even to read on a computer screen.

..and no, I dont need the ahnetafel (is that a pedigree) you are correct I wouldn't understand it. I have no doubt your dog does everything you need, but I guarantee that there are plenty of situations where your 10+ year old DD will not get it done in the field without regard to field trials.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:46 am

Chukar12 wrote:Thank you,

I have doen a fair bit of guiding myself, and prior to starting the field trial game I hunted between 40-50 days a year almost exclusively for wild chukar in the desert. With my trialing obligations I am now down to closer to your numbers. Don't you find it discomforting to argue with a point of view that you have no experience in (please excuse me if I am wrong maybe you have participated in trial venues, I might have missed that)?
What is rude about questioning HOW a trial is judged, albeit not necessarily BY the dog with the most finds?
I find that clearly illogical that such a dog could lose. And it happens quite often as you know.
..and no, I dont need the ahnetafel (is that a pedigree) you are correct I wouldn't understand it. I have no doubt your dog does everything you need, but I guarantee that there are plenty of situations where your 10+ year old DD will not get it done in the field without regard to field trials
I have guided with ths dog for 8 years, sometimes by request for hunting parties.
I have tracked lost deer for fellow bow hunters.
Ive had same dog find crippled ducks left for dead by other duck hunters and their Labs.
Now, If thats not getting it done, I dont know what is.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:48 am

JKP wrote:I 'm sure many here will agree with this. There seems to be the overwhelming opinion that hunting dogs are second class...that only trialing is the proof of the pudding....and without competition ...well, not worth mentioning!!!
Why do you do this? Are you suggesting that people should trust or believe Bill about his dog or dogs based on his body of work which is just conjecture? I breed, hunt and trial Britts and at one point I decided I wanted some Nolan's Last Bullet blood. I would have loved to be able to watch the dog work wild chukars in Nevada, but Nolan was unwilling to drive 3000 miles to show me even if I was willing to send him $800 for a puppy.
JKP wrote:Great dogs handle the difficult work consistently.....handle grouse on windy days....stand well off the sharpies because they know the difference/situation....relocate and pin the running rooster on their own....and leave nothing dead or wounded on the ground no matter how difficult the retrieve. I am sure all of us could add more to this list. None will show this without our patience...taking them out on wild game and giving them the chance to learn. I have watched trial bred dogs in ND run like the wind for a few days, run by cover, and otherwise beat feet ... but with each day they started to figure it out. I would say that without that experience, they would not become the best hunting dogs. I took my hillside grouse dogs to Florida once and they looked lost for two days....but they came around when they stopped running to the thickest cover and started cruising the open ground under the pines. We all train, compete, test, etc....and afterwards I do think we need to confirm that a dog is really a good hunting dog too. But we have to give a dog time...
I have seen many dogs from good trial and test "pedigrees" that were not the best hunting dogs. Most would get the job done....but to find great hunting dogs you have to hunt enough so that they run up against the tough conditions. Any dog can point a quail in a hedgerow, a rooster on the roost, or a juvenile grouse in the browse.

Titles and scores should never become surrogates for performance....but they can be a valuable as a part of the package. Personally, I would never buy a dog from a kennel where the dogs are not being proven on wild game. I am also less likely to buy dogs that require pros to handle them.

I happen to agree with most all of this but it takes time and committment that most people don't have or are not willing to invest in a dog.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:58 am

BillThomas wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:Thank you,

I have doen a fair bit of guiding myself, and prior to starting the field trial game I hunted between 40-50 days a year almost exclusively for wild chukar in the desert. With my trialing obligations I am now down to closer to your numbers. Don't you find it discomforting to argue with a point of view that you have no experience in (please excuse me if I am wrong maybe you have participated in trial venues, I might have missed that)?
What is rude about questioning HOW a trial is judged, albeit not necessarily BY the dog with the most finds?
I find that clearly illogical that such a dog could lose. And it happens quite often as you know.
..and no, I dont need the ahnetafel (is that a pedigree) you are correct I wouldn't understand it. I have no doubt your dog does everything you need, but I guarantee that there are plenty of situations where your 10+ year old DD will not get it done in the field without regard to field trials
I have guided with ths dog for 8 years, sometimes by request for hunting parties.
I have tracked lost deer for fellow bow hunters.
Ive had same dog find crippled ducks left for dead by other duck hunters and their Labs.
Now, If thats not getting it done, I dont know what is.
Bill why does your "needs" of a dog trump my "needs" of a dog? I dont want a gigantic 80lb DD quartering in front of me in the chukar hills, that is completely worthless to me. You dont want a fast big running EP for what you do. But that is what I want, so why do your needs trump my needs? All my dogs are FT bred, and I compete in FT. I have zero problems getting birds pointed! Explain that to me.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:00 am

Chukar12 wrote:
JKP wrote:I 'm sure many here will agree with this. There seems to be the overwhelming opinion that hunting dogs are second class...that only trialing is the proof of the pudding....and without competition ...well, not worth mentioning!!!
Why do you do this? Are you suggesting that people should trust or believe Bill about his dog or dogs based on his body of work which is just conjecture? I breed, hunt and trial Britts and at one point I decided I wanted some Nolan's Last Bullet blood. I would have loved to be able to watch the dog work wild chukars in Nevada, but Nolan was unwilling to drive 3000 miles to show me even if I was willing to send him $800 for a puppy.

I happen to agree with most all of this but it takes time and committment that most people don't have or are not willing to invest in a dog.
Nolan was known for his ability to scent the 4 wheeling planters at NSTRA.
Im not saying he wasnt a good dog, just sayin.

I require and desire versatility. I dont just hunt birds or just want a dog to point. I need alot more.
Some trial dogs might offer that, some might not. Its just not what I want or need. Ive been there and done that once.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:03 am

BillThomas wrote: albeit not necessarily BY the dog with the most finds?
I find that clearly illogical that such a dog could lose. And it happens quite often as you know.
This is where the ignorance comes in. You clearly dont underatnd variable conditions and are too impatient or inexperienced to conceive of having a comprehensive performance judged, as you said in any type of contest your comfort zone is in the structure of a score. Judging is frustrating and requires patience sometimes and the ability/willingness to show back up and compete even when you feel you were wronged...eventually the cream rises to the top.

...and for those things as described I am sure your dog is perfect for you, and I for one would never try to convince you otherwise

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:06 am

I guarantee Nolan cannot smell a four wheeler, he was a good shot, but his nose was average...I don't even think he is Italian...but I am sure Buddy could smell four wheelers...and in every NSTRA trial I have ever been to there isnt more than a square foot of the grounds in a single day that didnt have a four wheeler on it for heaven's sake.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:10 am

Chukar12 wrote:
BillThomas wrote: albeit not necessarily BY the dog with the most finds?
I find that clearly illogical that such a dog could lose. And it happens quite often as you know.
This is where the ignorance comes in. You clearly dont underatnd variable conditions and are too impatient or inexperienced to conceive of having a comprehensive performance judged, as you said in any type of contest your comfort zone is in the structure of a score. Judging is frustrating and requires patience sometimes and the ability/willingness to show back up and compete even when you feel you were wronged...eventually the cream rises to the top.

...and for those things as described I am sure your dog is perfect for you, and I for one would never try to convince you otherwise

Im not sure how it doesnt seem ignorant to point out that a dog with less bird contacts but more run, can win a trial, while you call that Variable, inexperienced, and comprehensive...

To me, its rather simple, elementary, obvious, and blatantly apparent .

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by orbirdhunter » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:15 am

Why does this always get blown out of proportion so much....its really fairly simple. At least in my mind....

Field trials are a competition first and foremost, at least today. There is a loose set of standards in which the dogs are judged on, race,run,style,handling,nose,birdwork steadiness etc. Retrieving judged in some avenues, others required to be competent only, others not needed at all. Bird work is obviously important in the venue but it is only one part of the whole in the judging......People who enjoy this style of dog use trials as a measurement to find the best of the best for dogs with the characterists that they want.

As a example for Bill, who has a Drahthaar...Drahthaars have hunt tests that they have to perform in to be eligible for breeding within the VDD system. Now this test is against a standard, not a direct competition. However scores are given, and if you go to one i am pretty sure that a couple of dogs rise to the top of the class in peoples eyes pretty quickly. Drahthaars as a breed are bred to a different purpose then say a AF pointer. A drahthaar is bred to be the ultimate versatile pointer, one to do all hunting dog work whether it be pheasants,chukars,ducks,geese, deer tracking,blood tracking, hog hunting etc. They are tested in use of nose, pointing, field search, different tracking and retrieving tasks, obedience, cooperation etc...

Both venues are right for what they want in a dog....both venues can and do produce great,superior bird dogs. Both venues probably produce dogs that are not so great either, although for different reasons.

For the record. I own a Navdha bred shorthair, a FT bred Brittany and a Drahthaar.....Variety is the spice of life.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by JKP » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:17 am

The underlying assumption of this thread is that hunting dogs, whether they are trial dogs or not, come from trial dogs. There are many excellent hunting dogs that have no trial dogs in their pedigree. There are dogs that have come straight from "pig land" and won in FT. The real take away from this discussion should be that there is no surrogate for judging the real world hunting ability of a dog. You have to hunt...that should be as important a measure as the title. I think the trainers that spend months in the Dakotas or Georgia on wild game realize this. Its the reason that I don't care how well my dogs test...I make my decision on whether they make the team or not...based on what I see from September to March

Bill Thomas,

Welcome back....like the new name!!! My friend, you are delusional if you don't think that there are just as many Euro dogs of many breeds that run the big score VGP and then spend years in a runway being bred. I can name you dogs that got their "jewels" bred off that NEVER went hunting....and some of them are in your dog's pedigree. Go to a stud dog show in Germany...witness 50-100 stud dogs with not a scratch or hair missing....in the middle of February (!!!!) Figure it out. My dogs look pretty ratty come February....the bull briar, stubble and barb wire take their toll...and grouse season doesn't end til the 28th!!!

BTW,

Bill we do the same thing in Euro testing.....a dog that goes out and finds 4 birds and looks asleep doing it is not going to get a very good search score. A dog that covers the ground, digs hard, cover the ground intelligently and shows optimal desire and finds two birds...WILL get the top points for search....its the desire to find game...not how much game. We do the same thing in large part.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by slistoe » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:19 am

BillThomas wrote:
Nolan was known for his ability to scent the 4 wheeling planters at NSTRA.
Im not saying he wasnt a good dog, just sayin.
Pretty classy - now you will find a way to denigrate the format that rewards # of finds.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:20 am

BillThomas wrote:Im not sure how it doesnt seem ignorant to point out that a dog with less bird contacts but more run, can win a trial, while you call that Variable, inexperienced, and comprehensive...

To me, its rather simple, elementary, obvious, and blatantly apparent
Well I could go on for days in answer to your question but I need a bit of help first to make sure we are on the same page. What is a continuous course, and what is the difference between Wednesday, October 28th and Thursday, October 29th? Or ....you could just tell me what the temperature difference, humidity and wind speed is at your place at 8 am this morning and 3 pm this afternoon.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:28 am

JKP wrote: Bill Thomas,
Go to a stud dog show in Germany...witness 50-100 stud dogs with not a scratch or hair missing....in the middle of February (!!!!) Figure it out. My dogs look pretty ratty come February....the bull briar, stubble and barb wire take their toll...and grouse season doesn't end til the 28th!!!
For some, Hunting is a way of life, for others a pasttime.
Health, economy, children, wife, kids all affect how often one can hunt with his dogs.
I hope Im still hunting at 75, but it wont be as hard as when I was 18 and doing it every day 5 days a week for everything from squirrels, coons, ducks, woodcock, phez, quail, geese, and an occasional boar.
At that time, ill probably be happy to be outdoors and raise a litter or 2 a year.
But I get your point.
I can name you dogs that got their "jewels" bred off that NEVER went hunting....and some of them are in your dog's pedigree.

My dogs Granddam had a 14" zipper on her from getting in between a boar and a fence, and was used to hunt 80-100 times per year.
My dogs Grand sire was Timo V Richtof. He was anything but a lounge lizard.
Far as I know, all dogs in this pedigree were serious hunting dogs. Blood trackers, Retreivers, Hog dogs and upland dogs.
Wachtersback, Richtof, Kornstube, Donauck are all well known hunting kennels producing excellent dogs by and large.


BTW,
Bill we do the same thing in Euro testing.....a dog that goes out and finds 4 birds and looks asleep doing it is not going to get a very good search score.
A dog that covers the ground, digs hard, cover the ground intelligently and shows optimal desire and finds two birds...WILL get the top points for search....its the desire to find game...not how much game. We do the same thing in large part
.

That hasnt been my experience.
'Style' is not judged, but mechanics are. Nose is. manners on game is.
Production and efficiency is.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:29 am

slistoe wrote:
BillThomas wrote:
Nolan was known for his ability to scent the 4 wheeling planters at NSTRA.
Im not saying he wasnt a good dog, just sayin.
Pretty classy - now you will find a way to denigrate the format that rewards # of finds.

Not at all, not intented and not anything but the truth.
Those tha Knew the dog say very clearly, he was an ace at tracking the 4 wheelers.
Its not a slam but a compliment, He was a smart dog.

Some of you are way too touchy.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by topher40 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:40 am

Bill-
Judges call this "application" Not just judging the run but how they apply themself to teh ground afforded to them. :roll:
BillThomas wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:
BillThomas wrote: albeit not necessarily BY the dog with the most finds?
I find that clearly illogical that such a dog could lose. And it happens quite often as you know.
This is where the ignorance comes in. You clearly dont underatnd variable conditions and are too impatient or inexperienced to conceive of having a comprehensive performance judged, as you said in any type of contest your comfort zone is in the structure of a score. Judging is frustrating and requires patience sometimes and the ability/willingness to show back up and compete even when you feel you were wronged...eventually the cream rises to the top.

...and for those things as described I am sure your dog is perfect for you, and I for one would never try to convince you otherwise

Im not sure how it doesnt seem ignorant to point out that a dog with less bird contacts but more run, can win a trial, while you call that Variable, inexperienced, and comprehensive...

To me, its rather simple, elementary, obvious, and blatantly apparent .
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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:43 am

topher40 wrote:Bill-
Judges call this "application" Not just judging the run but how they apply themself to teh ground afforded to them. :roll:
Thank you.

You might see the other reference about endurance as it relates to trialing.
It was not exactly flattering.
It summarizes that trialers Breeding for frantic paced, overly animated, 1 hour extreme dogs, is ruining hunting dogs.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by topher40 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:46 am

Agitators don't last long here............ :wink:
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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:51 am

BillThomas wrote:I hunt about 25-30 days per year, 1/3 of that are guiding. From Dove in Sept, through late season goose.
and where are you hunting 25-30 days per year?

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:02 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:
BillThomas wrote:I hunt about 25-30 days per year, 1/3 of that are guiding. From Dove in Sept, through late season goose.
and where are you hunting 25-30 days per year?
Ohio has sizeable numbers and season for Dove, Duck/Goose, Rabbit, Turkey, Deer, Woodcock.
Living here, surely you know this.

That is the game which is what I hunt most.

Aside from that, trips from SD, MI, KY, WV, WI are also taken in the last 10 years.
Does that help?

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:05 pm

Yep, but hunting in Ohio is entirely different from hunting quail, sharptail or chukar on the prairie or mountains. A dog that can get it done on a preserve west of Germantown isn't going to be optimal on the northeast MT grasslands or in west TX prairie.

A breeding that has the drive and heart to run in wild bird trials on the prairie will produce hunting dogs that can keep the Ohio preserve dogs from turning into wallowing pacers.

OTOH, the reverse is NOT true. If one breeds generations of dogs that get it done on an OH preserve, one is going to have dogs generations with ever diminishing go power.

That is the purpose of trials. To select dogs that, under objective judging, can keep the breeds strong.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:08 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:Yep, but hunting in Ohio is entirely different from hunting quail, sharptail or chukar on the prairie or mountains. A dog that can get it done on a preserve west of Germantown isn't going to be optimal on the northeast MT grasslands or in west TX prairie.
Perhaps not.

But A good dog will adjust to cover, Mine will run out to 200 yards in the open and shorten to 40 yards hunting Brush creek grouse.

For open praries, I dont think much wil outshine a pointer. Id be foolish to think otherwise.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:20 pm

Greg Jennings wrote: A breeding that has the drive and heart to run in wild bird trials on the prairie will produce hunting dogs that can keep the Ohio preserve dogs from turning into wallowing pacers.
There are many many gret dogs produced, campaigned, hunted over and bred in the East.
We (East) dont take a back seat to the Western hunting dogs.

OTOH, the reverse is NOT true. If one breeds generations of dogs that get it done on an OH preserve, one is going to have dogs generations with ever diminishing go power.
I dont know what to make of such a statement.
Locale does not affect genetics.
Run is genetic, so is drive.


That is the purpose of trials. To select dogs that, under objective judging, can keep the breeds strong.
For many hunters, Trialing is not a venue that is producing better hunting dogs, but more extreme dogs, less cooperative dogs, less effective hunting dogs.

The great PPs, GSP/DK, DDs, Frnech Britts and Pointer/Setters all came from Europe.
All were and are hunted there. And still are used to hunt, manage game for conservationists.
Hunting there is Not the subjective 'pagaents' such as we have here, where a dog can have less finds and still win a contest. Great tradition, but imo, lacking in many ways.

Why an honest assessment and critizque of ones sport is so hard to acccept, is beyond me.
Trialers are a very sensitive group.
I dont decry their love of dogs, but their methods of determining the best dogs.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:26 pm

BillThomas wrote:Trialers are a very sensitive group. I dont decry their love of dogs, but their methods of determining the best dogs.
With your fondness for logic does it seem reasonable that a "sensitive group" would pay for and accept third party judgement of their dog?

Did you miss this or are you finished with this part of the discussion?
Chukar12 wrote:Well I could go on for days in answer to your question but I need a bit of help first to make sure we are on the same page. What is a continuous course, and what is the difference between Wednesday, October 28th and Thursday, October 29th? Or ....you could just tell me what the temperature difference, humidity and wind speed is at your place at 8 am this morning and 3 pm this afternoon.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:29 pm

Chukar12 wrote: With your fondness for logic does it seem reasonable that a "sensitive group" would pay for and accept third party judgement of their dog?
I owned a trial bred GSP. Hunted over a few too.
I once Believed them to be a good gauge of a hunting dog.
I also regularly hunt with Trial bred setters and ran against them.
So If thats 3rd party, what exactly, is first hand?

Did you miss this or are you finished with this part of the discussion
?
Golly, since you put it like that, I guess Im done with the discussion.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by ElhewPointer » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:36 pm

I remember when I got my first dog at 10 yrs old and didn't know anything like Bill. I thought my dog was the best too. But after many years of hunting wild birds and then getting into trials did I finally see how blind, also like Bill, I was. I was close minded, like Bill, and didnt want to think anything was better than ol Rusty(Brit). But after going out with others hunting and going to many venues of trials, unlike Bill, it really opened my eyes, also unlike Bill. I was kennel blind, like Bill, and thought that trial dogs were a mess. NO ONE could change my mind, like Bill. But then I got out of high school, unlike Bill, left my home town, unlike Bill, got of the internet, unlike Bill and found out there are a lot better dogs out there than mine, unlike Bill.

I would like to start a donation collection, to get Bill out from behind the desk and the power of the internet, where such great studies have been done, and collect enough money to get him to a trial or to go hunting with real dogs. I will donate first $1.00. Please help this very good cause. Join the fight against bird dog internet warriors diseases. It is very contagious and can kill.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:43 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:I remember when I got my first dog at 10 yrs old and didn't know anything like Bill. I thought my dog was the best too.
Im 45, grew up with Bird dogs, and have hunted for 35 years. And no where have I implied that my dog is the best.
For the hunting I do, and for the variety of game I hunt, ive yet to find a better breed of dog though for this.

But after many years of hunting wild birds and then getting into trials did I finally see how blind, also like Bill, I was. I was close minded, like Bill, and didnt want to think anything was better than ol Rusty(Brit). But after going out with others hunting and going to many venues of trials, unlike Bill, it really opened my eyes, also unlike Bill. I was kennel blind, like Bill, and thought that trial dogs were a mess.

Unlike you, I speak first hand, as Ive owned a trial dog that was the best 30-60minute dog I owned.
After that, lets just say, we relied on my friends dogs.

NO ONE could change my mind, like Bill. But then I got out of high school, unlike Bill, left my home town, unlike Bill, got of the internet, unlike Bill and found out there are a lot better dogs out there than mine, unlike Bill.
Ive actually run against some very good, National competitors in NSTRA and held up well.
But unlike these dogs, Mine would also guard my truck, kill coons, chase and kill coyotes, bay hogs, sit in the duck and dove blind from Sept to Frigid February and track shot deer.

I would like to start a donation collection, to get Bill out from behind the desk and the power of the internet, where such great studies have been done, and collect enough money to get him to a trial or to go hunting with real dogs. I will donate first $1.00. Please help this very good cause.
If you want to take up a collection, how about for studies on how trialing is changing hunting dogs to paganet dogs, that run frantically and seemingly without the purpose for which they were developed?

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by MillerClemsonHD » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:45 pm

I can honestly say without a doubt being too logical is not your problem. You might try adjectives like stubborn, hard headed, ignorant of the topic of which you speak of.

you forget in most cases trials are run on pen birds. If they were all run on wild birds then more often than not the dog with most finds would probably win. I don't count finding a bird on the horse path a find. When a handler calls a dog over 2 times until it finds a bird it might be in the total count, but doesn't count much to me. You just can't seem to comprehend that the dogs application and how it finds those birds play a factor and it should.

You also have no clue about trials so you have no idea why trackers are used. Next time you go hunting make a predetermined path that you will follow. Now you can't leave that path unless you see your dog on point. You dog must handle for you the whole time. If handlers where allowed to go where ever they wanted often times they could probably produce more birds and rarely have to use a scout or a tracker. I know I use my gps a heck of a lot more foot hunting than I ever do on HB.

I'm not even going to try to talk to you about AA pointers as I imagine you have never seen one go so you really have no business discussing it.
BillThomas wrote:
slistoe wrote:
BillThomas wrote:
Not sure what you consider with such results, as a system working..it sounds broken to me.

Find more birds, you lose.

Find less birds, but with bigger run and style, and you Win.

Either its way too convuluted for me, or Im too logical to participate in trials.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:46 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I guarantee Nolan cannot smell a four wheeler, he was a good shot, but his nose was average...I don't even think he is Italian...but I am sure Buddy could smell four wheelers...and in every NSTRA trial I have ever been to there isnt more than a square foot of the grounds in a single day that didnt have a four wheeler on it for heaven's sake.
and sometimes buzzed back and forth over putting down false trails.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by rinker » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:48 pm

In general I think that most field trial dogs would also make hunting dogs.

I have always thought that automobiles were a good analogy for bird dogs. The average guy does not need an Indy car or a top fuel dragster to drive his kids to school. However, a lot of the engine advancements that a modern sedan benefits from, came straight from the racing industry. So, the average guy that drives an average Ford/Chevy/Toyota to work and to the grocery store has benefitted from the racing industry whether he realizes it or not.

I think this translates somewhat to bird dogs. The average guy that goes to a preserve occasionally and maybe takes one hunting trip per year does not need a horseback all age dog. The genetics behind the dogs that the average hunter owns usually goes back to field trial dogs and usually within just a few generations.

I have no real knowledge of versatile dogs and maybe this doesn't apply to them. I am sure there are other exceptions also.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:50 pm

MillerClemsonHD wrote: you forget in most cases trials are run on pen birds.
Thank you for pointing ths important point out.
It leads one to ask...how exactly are hunting dogs created if they are only judged on penned birds?

I'm not even going to try to talk to you about AA pointers as I imagine you have never seen one go so you really have no business discussing it.
Im not sure the 3 trials I saw were AF, AA or AKC. On that point, we can agree that probably shouldnt discuss it, only the philosophy behind it and determining 'winnners' and 'hunt stock' from dogs that compete on penned birds.
Last edited by BillThomas on Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:51 pm

Well, Bill, if your dog can hold its own, take him to a trail and put him down. Till you can compete, you're just taking out of your keyboard.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:53 pm

BillThomas wrote:[Im not sure the 3 trials I saw were AF, AA or AKC.
That, taken in total, is a non sequitur.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:53 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:Well, Bill, if your dog can hold its own, take him to a trail and put him down. Till you can compete, you're just taking out of your keyboard.
Ive titled my dog in UKC Retrieving events running against Labs, Chesses, Goldens.

My dog is not an AKC bred/reg dog, so Im not sure they would take him.
And to be honest, NSTRA is probably more to my liking.
And My dog is not fond of horses.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:56 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:
BillThomas wrote:[Im not sure the 3 trials I saw were AF, AA or AKC.
That, taken in total, is a non sequitur.

Greg,
Ive owned a trial bred GSP.
Ive talked with many hunters at the club that DO trial their dogs, about trialing and their dogs.
Ive also picked up many of their cripples while guiding, and as mentioned, Ive watched a few events and read the commentary later.

That gives me more experience than others here that have yet to see a NVHDA or JGHV event and comment on it and the dogs it is producing.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by UglyD » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:58 pm

slistoe wrote:I can honestly say that I have never hunted over as good of dogs as I have since I became involved with organized competition with my dogs.
As can be said of any great athlete

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by ElhewPointer » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:01 pm

Montana Open Shooting Dog Championship
Hawthorn Kate Pointer female emerged as the winner in the Montana Open SD Championship for her very proud handler, Jim Tande. Kate is co-owned by Jim Tande and Dan Miller this is kates second championship to go along with a couple of runner up championships. Shawn Kinkelaar handled Nella Running Tab, owned by Vagas Mathiesen to the runner up spot based on a six find performance in this prestigious wild bird trial.

Here was one of those trial dogs that could hunt wild birds!!!!! Hey Billy, is six finds with blown pads in an hour enough for you?

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by dan v » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:04 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:owned by Vagas Mathiesen to the runner up spot based on a six find performance in this prestigious wild bird trial.

Here was one of those trial dogs that could hunt wild birds!!!!! Hey Billy, is six finds with blown pads in an hour enough for you?
Too many finds + not enough race = runner-up :mrgreen:
Dan

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by MillerClemsonHD » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:04 pm

My dogs have to prove themselves for a summer on the praries of MT before they get to be trial dogs. I would imagine someone with your vast knowledge of birddogs understands that wild birds are pretty straight forward for a dog. Get to close they fly off and boss isn't happy. Point them boss comes and flushes and all is good. Those that aren't shot may not land until they are in another zip code. Pen birds are the opposite. They will run circles around a dog, fly at them, fly 2 feet, and just about every dumb thing you can imagine. In the end are probably a harder test for a a dog. Definitely not as hard to find, but harder to handle. You should recognize while trials are held on pen birds considering you live in a state that has one of the worst populations in the country.

My dogs have run in Wild bird trials. My dogs are hunted on wild birds every year.

This same argument is had with every one of you trial bashers that run off at the mouth on a topic they should not even talk about. There is no way physically possible to run trials on only wild birds. I guess its ok to "hunt" pen birds at a preserve but not ok to use them for trials?



BillThomas wrote:
MillerClemsonHD wrote: you forget in most cases trials are run on pen birds.
Thank you for pointing ths important point out.
It leads one to ask...how exactly are hunting dogs created if they are only judged on penned birds?

I'm not even going to try to talk to you about AA pointers as I imagine you have never seen one go so you really have no business discussing it.
Im not sure the 3 trials I saw were AF, AA or AKC. On that point, we can agree that probably shouldnt discuss it, only the philosophy behind it and determining 'winnners' and 'hunt stock' from dogs that compete on penned birds.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:07 pm

MillerClemsonHD wrote:My dogs have to prove themselves for a summer on the praries of MT before they get to be trial dogs. I would imagine someone with your vast knowledge of birddogs understands that wild birds are pretty straight forward for a dog. Get to close they fly off and boss isn't happy. Point them boss comes and flushes and all is good. Those that aren't shot may not land until they are in another zip code. Pen birds are the opposite. They will run circles around a dog, fly at them, fly 2 feet, and just about every dumb thing you can imagine. In the end are probably a harder test for a a dog. Definitely not as hard to find, but harder to handle. You should recognize while trials are held on pen birds considering you live in a state that has one of the worst populations in the country.
My dogs have run in Wild bird trials. My dogs are hunted on wild birds every year.
I am glad that you hunt your dogs, I really am.



But Note that I have spoken first hand to breeders of trial dogs that Refuse to Hunt their dogs, and will NOT hunt their dogs, as it 'Ruins' them for Trialing.


Im not sure they are the exception to the rule.

Isnt such commentary sad? Is this what trialing has come to, by and large?
I know they are not the minority either. Many of you know what I say is true, but you refuse to take a position or speak up against it.
Last edited by BillThomas on Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by topher40 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:08 pm

I sell most of my " washouts" to guys like you Bill. They dont know what they want, have limited experience, want to go hunting on the weekends, have no clue how to train the dog, send it back to me for a "refresher", and tout that I have a field trial bred dog. For all of your bias against trialing and what it has brought to the breeds why for God's sakes do people still brag about having a field trial bred dog such as yourself. Your talking in circles and, as Greg said, out of your keyboard. Its time for you to wake up, shut up, or put up. If you cant do ththe third step then go back to step two.
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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:12 pm

topher40 wrote:I sell most of my " washouts" to guys like you Bill. They dont know what they want, have limited experience, want to go hunting on the weekends, have no clue how to train the dog, send it back to me for a "refresher", and tout that I have a field trial bred dog.
For all of your bias against trialing and what it has brought to the breeds why for God's sakes do people still brag about having a field trial bred dog such as yourself. Your talking in circles and, as Greg said, out of your keyboard. Its time for you to wake up, shut up, or put up. If you cant do ththe third step then go back to step two.
I have no use for a single purpose, running fool dog.
Nor would I feed one, so I dont think Ill be banging on your door, asking for a pup.

And I hunt way more than just birds.
I want and need a tough dog to take on vermin, guard my truck, retrieve waterfowl down to 5F with my buddys Labs and HRC friends, track deer if lost by bowhunters, and keep up with my buddys setters in the uplands.

When youre dogs can do all of the above, call me.
If not, leave the breeding of Versatiles, to the hunters.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by topher40 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:16 pm

I concede Bill, I dont hunt and pointers are worthless and less than versatile. I wish yawallac was here at time of ignorance!
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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:22 pm

topher40 wrote:I concede Bill, I dont hunt and pointers are worthless and less than versatile. I wish yawallac was here at time of ignorance!

Yawallac said on a forum that he bought a Pudelpointer (PP) to have a deer tracking dog at his farm, he has 40-100 Pointers at his kennel.??

So When you have pics or video of his dogs baying hogs, killing coons, tracking deer, and sitting in the dove fields & duck blinds, please post them.

Ive only seen pictures of a few dogs swimming in 85F ponds after bumpers, sorry but I dont exactly call that versatile.

Versatile is abused in the American sense by those that believe it to be something it is not.
Here is the best example of a real Versatile Hunting dog(s), in the American Sense of the word.


http://www.vommoorehaus.com/truly-versatile-video.php
Last edited by BillThomas on Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by ElhewPointer » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:26 pm

BillThomas wrote:
topher40 wrote:I sell most of my " washouts" to guys like you Bill. They dont know what they want, have limited experience, want to go hunting on the weekends, have no clue how to train the dog, send it back to me for a "refresher", and tout that I have a field trial bred dog.
For all of your bias against trialing and what it has brought to the breeds why for God's sakes do people still brag about having a field trial bred dog such as yourself. Your talking in circles and, as Greg said, out of your keyboard. Its time for you to wake up, shut up, or put up. If you cant do ththe third step then go back to step two.
I have no use for a single purpose, running fool dog.
Nor would I feed one, so I dont think Ill be banging on your door, asking for a pup.

And I hunt way more than just birds.
I want and need a tough dog to take on vermin, guard my truck, retrieve waterfowl down to 5F with my buddys Labs and HRC friends, track deer if lost by bowhunters, and keep up with my buddys setters in the uplands.

When youre dogs can do all of the above, call me.
If not, leave the breeding of Versatiles, to the hunters.

You know they make locks for vehicles now?. It is an awesome invention. What it does is, you push this little button down in your vehicle and it doesn't allow anyone to get inside. Its super cool. Therefore, no need to bring your mutt to "GUARD MY TRUCK". Check it out. I'll see if I can post a link to the invention somehow. There was a study done on what is better for protecting your truck. A dog or a lock. Ill find that too for you.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:29 pm

ElhewPointer wrote:
You know they make locks for vehicles now?. It is an awesome invention. What it does is, you push this little button down in your vehicle and it doesn't allow anyone to get inside. Its super cool. Therefore, no need to bring your mutt to "GUARD MY TRUCK". Check it out. I'll see if I can post a link to the invention somehow. There was a study done on what is better for protecting your truck. A dog or a lock. Ill find that too for you.
Im sorry, i was under the impression that a pick up bed was exposed...

So How exactly do you lock the bed of a pickup truck?

Why lock it, when your dog will tag anyone that tries to grab and put his hand on something that isnt his, in Your truck?
Last edited by BillThomas on Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:29 pm

Bill,

I didnt say anything offensive to you, but your weaknesses are being exposed if you cannot accept the fallacy in your argument when it is presented. You can actually walk away from a legitimate discussion just because you are wrong? I can't do it...I am wrong too many times in the day, i end up having to admit i may not have been as learned as I presented myself. Now you did say this correct?
BillThomas wrote:What is rude about questioning HOW a trial is judged, albeit not necessarily BY the dog with the most finds?
I find that clearly illogical that such a dog could lose. And it happens quite often as you know.
BillThomas wrote:Not sure what you consider with such results, as a system working..it sounds broken to me.

Find more birds, you lose.

Find less birds, but with bigger run and style, and you Win.

Either its way too convuluted for me, or Im too logical to participate in trials.
slistoe wrote:
BillThomas wrote:
Your dogs found More birds than its bracemate, You Lost, and you still espouse this system of judging Bird dogs for hunting?

Are you out of your mind?

Pardon me for stating this, but I dont know how any right thinking individual could support such a venue in its present format with such a manner of 'judging'
My dog found more birds than any other dog running in the stake and I got second place. I knew I was getting second place when I found the dog standing on it's last bird because I had watched all the braces run, I understood what it takes to be a winner and why, and that is all there is to that. The system works and is the sole reason we have the quality of bird dogs that folks enjoy today.
Not sure what you consider with such results, as a system working..it sounds broken to me.

Find more birds, you lose.

Find less birds, but with bigger run and style, and you Win.

Either its way too convuluted for me, or Im too logical to participate in trials.
So I asked this:
Chukar12 wrote:Well I could go on for days in answer to your question but I need a bit of help first to make sure we are on the same page. What is a continuous course, and what is the difference between Wednesday, October 28th and Thursday, October 29th? Or ....you could just tell me what the temperature difference, humidity and wind speed is at your place at 8 am this morning and 3 pm this afternoon.
Do you consider my question rude, unreasonable or irrelevant? I think if you answer the question honestly you will have to acknowledge that there are great many different factors that surround birds, bird dogs and the environement in which they perform and that sometimes its necessary to count on experience and knowledge as opposed to absolutes. If you accept that it seems you owe some folks an acknowledgement or apology for arguing aggressively and vehemently from your point of ignorance.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by DonF » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:32 pm

slistoe wrote:
DonF wrote:Some thing's that a great bird dog will do will get you thrown out of a trial.
Could you elaborate on this some. This statement is bandied about like gospel by everyone who really wants to believe that trial dogs can't hunt but I have yet to see a dog get thrown out of a trial for doing anything that a superb hunting dog with manners would not do.
Sure. If a dog relocates on it's own, wave good bye. If a dog moves out of cover to mark a fall, wave good bye. Part about the second one that get's me is that AKC rules and standard proceedures say it's exceptable, judges don't allow it though. I think that if exceptional bird dog work was the goal, we'd be a lot better off. I was thinking about running my old Lefty in some AF shooting dog stakes, he was a GSP. I didn't but a guy that does judge told me he'd never make an all age,?, because he slows at cover and hunts it thru. He did not dally but he didn't just blast thru either. There were a lot of judges that felt that way and many of them are still here. Do you really want a bird dog to just blast thru cover without hunting it? I think not. I think that is another place good dog work is ignored.

I recall at one of my early trials, I wasn't running then, I rode with an experienced judge and watch Mike McGinnis run Western Pride. What a proformance the dog put on. The experienced judge I was with said the dog wouldn't place. To much flawless bird work to run enough. ZThe dog was into birds that the trial club had planted. He didn't not find one and then skip on out of the country ignoring all else.
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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by ElhewPointer » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:32 pm

BillThomas wrote:
ElhewPointer wrote:
You know they make locks for vehicles now?. It is an awesome invention. What it does is, you push this little button down in your vehicle and it doesn't allow anyone to get inside. Its super cool. Therefore, no need to bring your mutt to "GUARD MY TRUCK". Check it out. I'll see if I can post a link to the invention somehow. There was a study done on what is better for protecting your truck. A dog or a lock. Ill find that too for you.
Im sorry, i was under the impression that a pick up bed was exposed...

So How exactly do you lock the bed of a pickup truck?

Why lock it, when your dog will tag anyone that trues to grab and put his hand on something that isnt his, in Your truck?
Dang it Bill. Are you drinking beer and spilling on the keyboard again? Your spelling is a little rough. As an insurance agent, I bet yours would love to see that. HAHAHA
Last edited by ElhewPointer on Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Great trial dog, great bird dog - One in the same?

Post by BillThomas » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:33 pm

Chukar12
Well I could go on for days in answer to your question but I need a bit of help first to make sure we are on the same page. What is a continuous course, and what is the difference between Wednesday, October 28th and Thursday, October 29th? Or ....you could just tell me what the temperature difference, humidity and wind speed is at your place at 8 am this morning and 3 pm this afternoon.
I could but Id rather not, as I see no purpose.

Do you consider my question rude, unreasonable or irrelevant? I think if you answer the question honestly you will have to acknowledge that there are great many different factors that surround birds, bird dogs and the environement in which they perform and that sometimes its necessary to count on experience and knowledge as opposed to absolutes. If you accept that it seems you owe some folks an acknowledgement or apology for arguing aggressively and vehemently from your point of ignorance.
Irrelevant, inane, and nonsensical. Or just a lack of interest in addressing it.. Im not sure.
Last edited by BillThomas on Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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