What is the driver behind endurance.

[BillThomas]

I don't know where you are reading that or what you are smoking, but there is no such thing as you have posted.

A few years ago, studies done at the National Championships at the Ames plantation proved so embarassing that they have now buried them.

They found that the best big running trial dogs in the country found about 5% of available birds on a quail planation with remarkable bird populations.

Similar studies at the same time done at Tall Timbers plantation found that more moderate paced hunting pointers found 25-35% of available birds.'

A brace by brace commentary from 2008 and 2009 proves they are finding barely 1.5 birds per hour on 18,000 managed aces FOR Quail, with thousands of birds released prior to the event in addition TO the already sizeable population of resident quail, and note that 30-40 % of these dogs are false pointing...ie unproductives.

This from the 'best' dogs in the country. I dont make up these numbers, I just like to get commentary on such facts.

[Johng918]

Good point Ray. Gamemaker this year got hit by a vehicle and finished the 3 hrs. There's a lot of "meat dogs" that could use some heart and guts like that.

Just wondering what you consider a "meat dog"?

[BillThomas]

From the Study:

'The study put radio tracking collars on more than two dozen coveys and compared the position of the coveys to the route run by the dogs. They limited their study to coveys within 400 yards of the centerline of the course. What they found was that these trial dogs found 5% of these radio collared coveys. That's not even counting the uncollared coveys on the course.'


Contrary to Duane's assertion, the studies clearly showed the dogs running past coveys in the middle of course - nowhere near cover. In fact, in many heats the gallery flushed more quail than the dogs found.
The studies were so embarassing that they have been buried by the trial community - and now when the Ames trials are run more than 2,000 quail are released onto the course prior to the trials (and kept in the area by foodplots and feeding) to artificially bump up the find rate.
The National Championships are now run through the equivalent of an overstocked preserve with bird numbers so artificially high than no hunter would ever see them.

The other study was run at the Tall Timbers plantation by the University of Auburn and involved hunting pointers used on local plantations. Using similar radio telemetry methods, they found that the hunting dogs found 25-40% of the available coveys.

And
In 1992, we began monitoring the efficiency of pointing dogs in locating radio-tagged bobwhite coveys on two large, private hunting plantations in southwest Georgia. Over these five hunting seasons, we have had the distinct privilege of monitoring 169 hunts involving 254 separate radio-tagged coveys.
Additionally, our field staff has monitored 838 "encounters" between radio-tagged coveys and hunters

. '

So we have another person who foolishly thinks that there is some comparison to be made between the two studies. Without going in to the purpose and rigors of the competitive environment lets simply start with the design parameters of the two studies.
Could you please point out in the Tall Timbers study where "available" coveys is defined? You will not be able to because it doesn't exist. What they studied in Tall Timbers was the interaction between the dog and the birds when "encounters" were made. If the birds were 400 meters away from the dogs they simply were not included in the study data.

2 Studies, similarly conducted, produced the same results ie Trial Dogs BLOWING By Birds and finding only 5% of the birds on the course.

It was abysmal.

[ckirsch]

BillT;

You're insinuating that the dogs not finishing the trial dropped out due to exhaustion, which is not the case. Most, if not all, were pulled by their handlers once it was obvious that they were not headed for the podium on that particular day. A bit of trial etiquette, if I'm not mistaken, so as not to further waste the judges' times. You're also attributing a single bird for each point, which is misleading, as many are covey points. I'm not an AA trialer, but my understanding is that those dogs are all run on the same course, so it's not like each dog is running virgin territory with birds that haven't been previously disturbed. Run your dog through a field that's already been hunted by several others, and has had a gallery of a couple hundred horses tromp through it two or three times earlier that same day. Suppose that has an impact on the number of birds left to find?

Apparently your hunting dogs never false point, nor do they run by a bird. Three hours is a piece of cake for them. You should enter ol' Rex in some Ames qualifiers next year, so that you can take him to the big show the following year and expose that field trial trash for what it really is.

[slistoe]

From the Study:

'The study put radio tracking collars on more than two dozen coveys and compared the position of the coveys to the route run by the dogs. They limited their study to coveys within 400 yards of the centerline of the course. What they found was that these trial dogs found 5% of these radio collared coveys. That's not even counting the uncollared coveys on the course.'


Contrary to Duane's assertion, the studies clearly showed the dogs running past coveys in the middle of course - nowhere near cover. In fact, in many heats the gallery flushed more quail than the dogs found.
The studies were so embarassing that they have been buried by the trial community - and now when the Ames trials are run more than 2,000 quail are released onto the course prior to the trials (and kept in the area by foodplots and feeding) to artificially bump up the find rate.
The National Championships are now run through the equivalent of an overstocked preserve with bird numbers so artificially high than no hunter would ever see them.

The other study was run at the Tall Timbers plantation by the University of Auburn and involved hunting pointers used on local plantations. Using similar radio telemetry methods, they found that the hunting dogs found 25-40% of the available coveys.

And
In 1992, we began monitoring the efficiency of pointing dogs in locating radio-tagged bobwhite coveys on two large, private hunting plantations in southwest Georgia. Over these five hunting seasons, we have had the distinct privilege of monitoring 169 hunts involving 254 separate radio-tagged coveys.
Additionally, our field staff has monitored 838 "encounters" between radio-tagged coveys and hunters

. '

So we have another person who foolishly thinks that there is some comparison to be made between the two studies. Without going in to the purpose and rigors of the competitive environment lets simply start with the design parameters of the two studies.
Could you please point out in the Tall Timbers study where "available" coveys is defined? You will not be able to because it doesn't exist. What they studied in Tall Timbers was the interaction between the dog and the birds when "encounters" were made. If the birds were 400 meters away from the dogs they simply were not included in the study data.

2 Studies, similarly conducted, produced the same results ie Trial Dogs BLOWING By Birds and finding only 5% of the birds on the course.

It was abysmal.

Obviously your reading comprehension is abysmal because when I hit you with a 2x4 in the head you still didn't understand.

[BillThomas]

BillT;

You're insinuating that the dogs not finishing the trial dropped out due to exhaustion, which is not the case. Most, if not all, were pulled by their handlers once it was obvious that they were not headed for the podium on that particular day. A bit of trial etiquette, if I'm not mistaken, so as not to further waste the judges' times. You're also attributing a single bird for each point, which is misleading, as many are covey points. I'm not an AA trialer, but my understanding is that those dogs are all run on the same course, so it's not like each dog is running virgin territory with birds that haven't been previously disturbed. Run your dog through a field that's already been hunted by several others, and has had a gallery of a couple hundred horses tromp through it two or three times earlier that same day. Suppose that has an impact on the number of birds left to find?

Apparently your hunting dogs never false point, nor do they run by a bird. Three hours is a piece of cake for them. You should enter ol' Rex in some Ames qualifiers next year, so that you can take him to the big show the following year and expose that field trial trash for what it really is.

Id do this.
Id take my meat dog down to Ames, 1 week after the trial.
If Rex doesnt find more than 1.5 birds per hour over 2-3 hours, Id shoot him or find it another home.


I posted the results of the trial dogs in the other thread at Ames.
30-40% of whom had False Unproductive Points, Trash POinting, and more than a few were Run Offs, outrunning horses and getting lost, tracking devices employed.
Not bashing, just critiquing. Is that not allowed here either?

Honest dialogue es no bueno? si senor.

[BillThomas]

Obviously your reading comprehension is abysmal because when I hit you with a 2x4 in the head you still didn't understand.

Hows this 2x4?





Ames

CedarOak Delta Dawn backed Whippoorwill Radiance at :35 (a rabbit); was later gone, and Tracking device was requested at 1:49.


'Coldwater Warrior was Lost; Tracking device requested at 1:05.

Phantom's Last Dime was Lost; Tracking device requested at the hour mark.

L J Confidential had a find at :51; sustained an absence; handler came for Tracking device at 1:40.

Mega Touch was Gone at :18 and handler requested Tracking device at :60.


Spectre Pete had 2 unproductives; picked up at 2:23.

Barshoe Busy suffered 2 unproductives. Up at :57.

Patriote had two game contacts, a rabbit, and 1 unproductive. Completed the three hours.

Prairieland Pride had two finds, a back and 1 unproductive and finished the three hours.

Elhew Sinbad had three finds, two backs, a Rabbit, and was picked up at 2:05.

Poison tallied five finds and a divided find, had 2 backs and an unproductive. Finished the three hours.

Strut notched three finds, shared a find with Poison, had two backs, 1 unproductive, and finished the three hours.

Lester's Knockout and White's Solid Reward had virtually simultaneous Unproductives. Reward taken up at 1:50 and Knockout at 1:54.

Survivor's Real Deal had four finds, two backs, a Rabbit, and finished the three hours.

Survivor's Little Bill had five pieces of bird work, a back, 2 unproductives, and finished the three hours.

Patriote had a find, 2 unproductives, and was taken up at 1:24.

Idaho Clean Sweep had two finds, a back, a rabbit, and 3 unproductives. Picked up at 1:20.
Phantom’s Last Dime had four finds. Picked up at 1:50


Lester's Snowatch had five finds, a rabbit and 2 unproductives. Picked up at 2:41.

Barshoe Busy suffered 2 unproductives and was up at 1:05.

I

[brad27]

"I swear, it's like I'm playin' cards with my brother's kids or somethin'..........."

[Mountaineer]

Someone "needs a payin' gig."

[Jakezilla]

Ray and a few others hit the nail on the head. The desire to find birds and the no quit attitude is the principle driver behind endurance.

I have been reading the comments of Mr. Thomas. The studies are what they are, it doesn't mean they are correct or were performed without bias. Other than these studies, what has brought you to your conclusion about field trails, is it the stories you have heard, what you have read on the internet or have you actually participated in field trials? Say whatever you want, you won't be changing my mind and several others with a conspiracy and a study or 2.

Instead of looking at the whole field at Ames, why not look a the top 5 dogs with regards to finds or look back through the years and see how many finds the winner had each year. Chances are they won for a reason, they are good bird dogs. The nay-sayers can say what they want but the top dogs in the various trial venues are special animals.

Regarding the purpose of field trials the linked article is one of the best explanations I have found.

http://www.strideaway.com/strideaway/in ... rials.html

[RayGubernat]

Bill -
Just a quick point in passing for you to consider....

The "average" horseback gallery at the National championship is somewhere on the order of 250 horses. The morning braces tend to be smaller but the afternoon braces, especially in good weather can exceed 500 riders. Can you imagine the amount of ground vibrations that a mounted regiment of cavalry generate??
Now think about what happens when you go to a cut over cornfield that has been hunted before and accidentally slam a door. How many pheasants flush wild, or take off likeroad runners, just from the sound of the door slamming?

Unless those "meat dogs" were hunted in the same way as the trial dogs...with the same size galleries, the handlers
RayG

We are Talking Miles. As in 18,000 acres, Ray. And some of those dogs are way Out of sight of said horses.

(Quail generally arent known for their running either.)

But its been noted that dogs are blowing BY Birds and that the gallery is Flushing birds that the dogs blow by.

Ive noted that some birds sit tight with a ruckus (car doors, talking etc) while others like Phez and sharpies head into next county.
Why wont you admit the obvious?

Bill - I do think that what is obvious is your lack of knowledge of the subject, your lack of intellectual honesty and the incredible inherent bias in your posts. Do you have ANY concept of just how much " ground thunder" that many horses generate? I think not. Can you say "Charge of the Light Brigade"??

If you don't know that most wild birds within a quarter mile will run or fly when they hear a door slam or a tailgate drop...you ain't hunted very much. for someone who has repeatedly cited the Ames radio telelmetry studies, did you read just how far and how fast some of those covies ran when the trial was under way versus when it was not? Also, while the Ames plantation is indeed 18,000 acres, , if you were as informed as you should be on the subject you would know that something less than half of that is actually used for the trials AND that the course swings back and forth in serpentine fashion. So even if the dog is 800 yards ahead of the handlers and out of sight , it may in fact only be separated from the gallery by a "bottom".

I will close by returning to the topic which is endurance. The National Championship at Ames has the potential to be an incredible test of endurance in a dog. The soil is pretty much sticky clay and when it gets wet it is like walking with suction cups on instead of sneakers.

I rode there for two days during the Hobart Ames and it was moderately wet. Every single foot fall was followed by a sucking noise as another foot was pulled from the mud. The horse I was riding was in fantastic shape at the time... capable of going all day, day after day. He was DONE after two days of that west Tennessee muck, riding just six hours a day. I mean DONE. I can only imagine how draining those type of conditions must be on dogs and how much grit and heart they must have to go the distance for three solid hours when the weather is foul.

RayG

[slistoe]

2 Studies, similarly conducted,

They were not similarly conducted in any way, shape or form. What part of that do you not understand?

[tn red]

"I swear, it's like I'm playin' cards with my brother's kids or somethin'..........."

yes sir