Gun Dog Forum

In the thread about breeding for form the conversation really took a turn to cover mainly angulation. But, a few times some folks dropped mention of toplines. So, do you guys put any emphasis on topline? What do you like to see? I've read the Pointer standard (not sure about the other breeds) and it doesn't call for a flat topline, but the show folks I've talked to seem to drop the term "table top line" a lot.

Gsp standard says" a slight rise from the root of the tail to the withers. The loin is strong.of moderate length and slightly arched". Breeders talk about the topline because it is easy for people to see, but a table top topline is not in any breed standard and a dog with some arch moves better than one with a table top topline and I think holds up better because it doesn't fight itself when it runs. Generally their hind feet can reach under themselves farther, which gives them a longer stride. CJ

My pups top line is straight when she's trotting because her feet are getting behind her (pelvis pivoting side to side and up/down). With feet under her she has a slight arch. Wouldn't work any other way.

Curvy topline is referred to as "Roach" back,the fastest animals on the planet sport a roach back,cheetahs and other big cats,racing horses,antelope of multiple species,and even dogs,look at greyhounds,When the back feet hit the ground in front of the front feet your haulin arse.The dynamic of geometry in motion.

yes, the fastest do usually have a roach or rise in the toplines, but cheetah's, greyhounds etc are sprinters, not long distance critters. While we want our dogs to be fast, they also have to be durable - to go without tiring for long distances and for hours. I'm not sure a roach will give that?

When watching dogs trot, I like to see a stable back (topline) not one that bounces up and down or rolls side to side. When a dog is running, I still want to see it stable, and if you really watch them while running you can see those that use themselves efficiently and those who appear to be struggling.

Moderation....
Fuzz

This roaching is frowned upon in the show ring though isnt it

Agree Fuzzy, I didn't mean I could see the movement in the pelvis, just know it's happening. If movement there was highly visible to the human eye, I'd think it would be laborious for the dog and wouldn't last. I love a smooth gate, as does everyone.

I never understood the "slight rise from the rump to the withers" statement. I mean, that would make it relative to where the dog's back feet were. I.e., if the rump is too high you can always move the back feet a little farther back and bring the rump below the withers. I know that wouldn't hold water in the show ring, but if you're an amateur or not a bench fancier and are trying to evaluate your dog, this point doesn't hold water.

It's amazing to ride along side some dogs at a full sprint and watch their true back. Some of them it's looks like you could set a full glass of water and not worry about spilling a drop even when those legs are pumpin' a mile a minute.

fuzznut wrote:yes, the fastest do usually have a roach or rise in the toplines, but cheetah's, greyhounds etc are sprinters, not long distance critters. While we want our dogs to be fast, they also have to be durable - to go without tiring for long distances and for hours. I'm not sure a roach will give that?

When watching dogs trot, I like to see a stable back (topline) not one that bounces up and down or rolls side to side. When a dog is running, I still want to see it stable, and if you really watch them while running you can see those that use themselves efficiently and those who appear to be struggling.

Moderation....
Fuzz

Right on.

Ezzy

Back is straight to the withers or pelvic bones but there is a slight drop from there to the base of tail. Personally i think breeding for super high set tails is kicking the pelvic bone forward and shortening that distance between them and the tail base. That is why that drop is not seen by some...

Look at my avatar. She has a pretty high tail but you can see the drop in the "top line". It's visible because her feet are under her. I love that high tail, she is one classy pup.

Form follows function and to finish the GSP standard I think it says "a slight arch over the loin" Do you know where these standards came from? Horse standards is the root and start of dog standards, they took horse standards and changed them to fit the breed of dog they were writting the standard. Why is it that the standard of a breed is what it is, it is a political process and not always about what makes them better for what the were breed for. The GSPCA votes on black year after year and why? Is it really about making the breed better or is it political?

Toplines in the show ring, a flat hard back wins but in the field I would take a slight arch to the back. Go look at every winner at the NFC and you will see a slight arch over the loin.

Personally i think breeding for super high set tails is kicking the pelvic bone forward and shortening that distance between them and the tail base.

Dogs with very high tail set and pronounced pelvic extension don't "gather" well in stride. Rather they have a shorter choppier gait that can be very efficient...but the length of stride is shorter. Lighter boned, compact, well sprung (ventilated) dogs have great endurance...they are not built for speed. When fanciers talk about the speed of a Pointer, it is relative...what they really mean is the ability of the dog to maintain pace for a longer time. My 9 year old DD will flat out thrash my buddies FT Setter over 1/4 mile but she can't keep up the Setters pace for 4 hours.

Stoneface wrote: It's amazing to ride along side some dogs at a full sprint and watch their true back. Some of them it's looks like you could set a full glass of water and not worry about spilling a drop even when those legs are pumpin' a mile a minute.

I think that right there , you kinda answered your own question.

When you see a dog run like that for a half hour, find a way to get a look at that dog standing still, relaxed but with its head up. THAT is the conformation you are looking for. If you look at a half dozen or so dog that run just that way, you will see a lot of similarities in the way they are built and the way they are proportioned if you look them over standing still. To run like that for an significant period of time, the dog simply HAS to be built right. Only a tremendous amount of heart, desire and grit will allow a dog that does not have outstanding functional conformation to do that and those dogs' bodies pay a price for it.

You can get technical with toplines, front angulation, rear angulation, depth of chest, narrowness of chest, arch of loin, etc., etc., but when you do that,you risk not seeing the forest for the trees. It is not one aspect of the dog's conformation that is important, it is how it all fits together to give you the physical performance you desire.

What I want to see in a dog may very well be different than what you, or someone else wants to see. But I submit, if you see what you like in several dogs' performances, you will very likely see a lot of similarities in the way those several dogs are put toghether.

RayG

There's a reason lots of us like to watch dogs that seem to float effortlessly over the ground with highly efficient locomotion.

BigShooter wrote:There's a reason lots of us like to watch dogs that seem to float effortlessly over the ground with highly efficient locomotion.

The less that moves the longer they last. Thats why poor conformation normally means the dog will tire quickly.

Ezzy

My show bred year old pup who has a slight roach and slopes slightly from withers to tail can run faster, farther and us less energy than my dual champion bred table top backed dogs, plus he is much more of a pleasure to watch.It just stands to reason that his stride will be longer and easier on him. Don't have as much style on point though.
A thorobred race horse with a slight roach is the fastest animal in the world over a long distance.
Black Gsps not being allowed in the show ring is not political. The vote fails every year because too many people who don't really care one way or the other don't vote at all. If they did most would be in favor. CJ

I love all this talk. Dogs with this feature don't run like this, blah, blah, blah. There are always dogs that break the mold and just do it because. Let's play a game.

See the dog in the avatar of my signature? If you have NEVER seen him run, tell me what his gait is like and what kind of ground speed he has and what he looks like when he runs.

Go ahead, try it.

Buckeye_V wrote:I love all this talk. Dogs with this feature don't run like this, blah, blah, blah. There are always dogs that break the mold and just do it because. Let's play a game.

See the dog in the avatar of my signature? If you have NEVER seen him run, tell me what his gait is like and what kind of ground speed he has and what he looks like when he runs.

Go ahead, try it.

Kind of a silly "game" actually. There is a lot more than the topline that goes into how a dog runs. It is a major factor, but by no means the only one. For example: Age of dog, prior injuries, weight of dog, height(dog is standing in grass, can't tell), id like to see his/her back legs(also in grass), hard to tell if the dog just points a little low in the front or if he/she usually stand like that(also in grass), id like to see the dog just standing to see how he/she stands on her toes just to name a few.

This whole game is silly, ain't it? My point is topline tells me nothing. Ground application does. Pictures are great, but watching it for real is what tells me if the dog is "right".

RayGubernat wrote: When you see a dog run like that for a half hour, find a way to get a look at that dog standing still, relaxed but with its head up. THAT is the conformation you are looking for. If you look at a half dozen or so dog that run just that way, you will see a lot of similarities in the way they are built and the way they are proportioned if you look them over standing still. To run like that for an significant period of time, the dog simply HAS to be built right. Only a tremendous amount of heart, desire and grit will allow a dog that does not have outstanding functional conformation to do that and those dogs' bodies pay a price for it.

You can get technical with toplines, front angulation, rear angulation, depth of chest, narrowness of chest, arch of loin, etc., etc., but when you do that,you risk not seeing the forest for the trees. It is not one aspect of the dog's conformation that is important, it is how it all fits together to give you the physical performance you desire.

When you say a dog HAS to be built right to run like that for a significant period of time, what kind of run do you mean? Flat-backed, snappy, fast? I think a dog can maintain a run beyond what his body suggests he should if he has enough drive. Right now I just have two personal dogs; Moxy the Pointer and Cinna the Setter. Moxy, in my opinion, isn't nearly as strong-built as Cinna, but when Cinna's laying under the shade of the pickup, Moxy's out there still bustin' brush, just zipping around the field. Both at full speed, Cinna will leave Moxy in the dust every time and can just run circles around her, and even though she's better built, she just can't maintain for as long as Moxy can.


I think you're right about being too close to the trees to see the forest, but if you try to build a forest it's important to remember you have to do in one tree at a time.

Stoneface -

If a dog is laying out there, running at or near full speed with the type of gait YOU yourself described... for a half hour or longer... THAT is what I was referring to. Some might call it an "all age lick". This type of gait is the kind where it seems the dog is not really working hard or going all that fast, because it is reaching straight out with its front legs and reaching way under with its back legs, just eating up the ground in the process. The only way you realize just how fast a dog like that is running is to see how long it takes for the dog to disappear to the front.

A dog that is squarer and generally smaller of stature, tends to have a slower gait whichhas much greater foot speed and is far more snappy and eye catching, but typically a dog that is built like that and runs like that simply cannot stay with a dog that runs as the former was described. They look like they are going like blazes because of the footspeed, but the dog that reaches out, coils and uncoils will blow their doors off in a brace.

FWIW, I have had dogs that were not built for the long haul, but had so much drive and desire that they would not be outdone. One in particular, well let's just say I got to be pretty expert at patching up blown pads and bloody feet. His pads were black but he pounded the ground so hard that he ran them off and I never knew he was hurt until it was time to put the dog away. I swear the SOB would have run on bloody stumps if he had to. He had that much desire. He also paid the price. Beau didn't make it to eight.

RayG

Endurance is determined by ease of movement but the proportion of mass to ventilated area is equally important. Many light boned field dogs get away with poorer structure due to lack of mass, lung capacity and surface area of ventilation.

Practically all high performance endurance dogs will be in the 40-55 lb range and will be similar in structure. This is why so many of the Euro dogs in FT have been bred down in size and bone. Very few of the dogs in the top half of the standard (65-75 lbs) are going to be competitive and the closer you get to Pointer/Setter proportions, the better the chances for success. Please don't post the exceptions...I know they are out there.

JKP wrote:Endurance is determined by ease of movement but the proportion of mass to ventilated area is equally important. Many light boned field dogs get away with poorer structure due to lack of mass, lung capacity and surface area of ventilation.

Practically all high performance endurance dogs will be in the 40-55 lb range and will be similar in structure. This is why so many of the Euro dogs in FT have been bred down in size and bone. Very few of the dogs in the top half of the standard (65-75 lbs) are going to be competitive and the closer you get to Pointer/Setter proportions, the better the chances for success. Please don't post the exceptions...I know they are out there.

Actually as far as endurance goes, Id say that no dogs are under 50lbs that run at Ames. Why do big horses with the Classic, Derby, Preakness and for sure the Belmont? Those are all about endurance. Big dogs that carry their weight well will out perform small dogs that do the same.

Why do big horses with the Classic, Derby, Preakness and for sure the Belmont? Those are all about endurance

Can't agree..in the horse world, these are short races...150 miles is an endurance race. I'll stand by my statement and am sure that at any longtail trial the average weight will be +/- 50 lb.

http://amesplantation.zenfolio.com/p38093762/e393b9d3a
http://amesplantation.zenfolio.com/p104 ... /e1045840e
http://amesplantation.zenfolio.com/p1046065913/ea7387ed
http://amesplantation.zenfolio.com/p361090450/e8826fe9
http://amesplantation.zenfolio.com/p995396357/e1284c826

Sorry sir/maam. These dogs are all endurance and the are all above the 50lbs. My older Champion, when in field trial shape ran about 59-61 lbs. My new Champion(Avitar) is a smaller dog at trials and runs at about 51-53 lbs field trial shape.

Man, look at the width of some of those shoulders. Definitely where some of that weight comes in.

Stoneface -

Using the photos that ElhewPointer just posted, I believe I can now answer your question to me about broadchested dogs. For the record, i have never seen either dog in person and am basing my comments on those pictures. Lester's Storm would be a dog that I would consider broadchested and with legs that are slightly sprung to the outside. That is a little too much for me base on the picture.

South's Late Night is very nearly as broadchested, as best as I can tell from that photo angle, but his front legs seem to come down straight and not sprung out to the sides. Looking at his massive back end I would say that his front end is pretty much in proportion, just that he is something of a bruiser.
RayG

Practically all high performance endurance dogs will be in the 40-55 lb range

Let's be clear...I don't consider a Pointer a high performance endurance dog. I would call pulling sled all day or running big game for hour on end endurance dog. Roading a dog an hour on the quad can't compare to pulling load all day. The tri-athletes of the dog world are at the Iditarod...check it out if you want to see how big the endurance stars are.

Glad to see there was a 60 lb dog at Ames ... what were the rest like??? I've been to a number of longtail trials here in the east...I'd say 50 lbs is a good average.

JKP wrote:

Practically all high performance endurance dogs will be in the 40-55 lb range

Let's be clear...I don't consider a Pointer a high performance endurance dog. I would call pulling sled all day or running big game for hour on end endurance dog. Roading a dog an hour on the quad can't compare to pulling load all day. The tri-athletes of the dog world are at the Iditarod...check it out if you want to see how big the endurance stars are.

Glad to see there was a 60 lb dog at Ames ... what were the rest like??? I've been to a number of longtail trials here in the east...I'd say 50 lbs is a good average.

I'll quit wasting my time. Go to AA Championships, not the weekend east coast throwdown trial. There is a difference. As far as endurance goes, that is neat about the iditarod dogs. On a side note, Wehle competed with his pointers in the sled trials. Sled dog people breed to pointers all the time. Look it up.

This was on the first site when I googled it.

A Scandinavian Hound also known as a Eurohound is a crossbred dog, from the Alaskan husky and a pointer. They first successfully entered the competitive sled dog racing world in Scandinavia. It is one of the most formidable. sled dogs in the world, combining the husky's centuries-honed sledding ability and a pointer's enthusiasm and athleticism in amounts dictated by careful breeding.

Crossbreeding between two established breeds with two tightly bred but unrelated gene pools is done for the purpose of heterosis (hybrid vigor) but also can include breeding the first generation cross back to one of the purebred breeds in order to enhance specific traits. In the Scandinavian Hound, a first generation cross (fifty percent pointer, fifty percent Alaskan Husky crosses) have short coats, suitable for sprint races, which don't involve resting or sleeping on the trail. When the first generation cross is crossed again with the Alaskan Husky, the resulting generation can have thicker coats, suitable for longer distance teams.

The Alaskan husky sprint dog has been tightly bred for performance since sled dog racing began in Alaska. The German Shorthaired and English pointer gene pool is restricted by the fact that they are registered breeds, but they too were bred for performance; the Scandinavian pointers from which the first Scandinavian Hound came had been used historically for sled dog racing and hunting.

As the Scandinavian Hound is a carefully bred performance dog rather than a purebred modern breed, its appearance can vary. Fairly common features of fifty percent crosses are half-dropped ears, black with white blazing or solid with patches of spots. Some completely spotted dogs appear as well. Once the percentage of pointer drops, the dogs start to look more like Alaskan huskies.

The Scandinavian Hound like the Siberian Husky is an eager and energetic sleddog one of the main differences is that they do tend to be more reliant off the leash than a Siberian Husky although this is not a guaranteed trait.

Here was the second site. So, sorry, but id say that pointers are also bred to your "standard" of endurance. I'll take my 60lb trial dog in a 3 hr stake over a 40 trial dog all day long.

http://www.genome.gov/27540617

There always has to be that one person who doesn't know how to play well with others!

Sled dogs have no basis in this discussion, not unless you want your dog to trot around the field for hours on end? Sorry, maybe some do.

Totally different conformation requirements, sort of like comparing them to a sprint dog, say a greyhound,, or whatever. Different needs.

We all want dogs that are sound well into their teens....good bones and how they are put together will help get you there.
Fuzz

I am never disappointed when I read Ray G's posts. So well thought out and the wording is always impeccable. I'm glad you frequent this place Mr.Gubernat.

Boy, you guys proved my point pretty well. It went from toplines, to bone and now to size.

So interesting.

Buckeye_V wrote:Boy, you guys proved my point pretty well. It went from toplines, to bone and now to size.

So interesting.

And those don't have anything to do with your "ground application" line. That is between the ears.

Like someone said in another post, it really comes down to heart and guts (fortitude)!!! We all want a well put together dog, but, what would a pointer be without that un-relenting heart and drive? They come into this world for one purpose, to find birds!!!!

I personally think the confirmation standards should be changed slightly to more fully encompass the modern field champion. Who's with me???

SCT wrote:
I personally think the confirmation standards should be changed slightly to more fully encompass the modern field champion. Who's with me???

Keep the AKC and its standards away from field bred pointers/setters, been fine without a confirmation standard for many many years......

What portions/pieces of any of the individual breed standards (conformation) work against a working dog? Just interested in what each of you would change to make them more in line with what you believe they should be.
Pick your breed and the changes.....
Fuzz

I was mostly joking, but, all the pointers we've seen in photos lately have less angulation in the front, many are almost straight up and down in the shoulders. From what I've seen on the other thread about form, they wouldn't score well because of it. But, these dogs that are winning seem the norm for today's field champions. Each individual dog is slightly different, but I'd say that's the big difference compared to the diagrams that were posted. I guess the rear end would have to change too to keep the balance.

All I'm asking is how can these great specimens do so well in the field, but, conformation-ally, don't fit the "standard"? These perfect show conformation dogs should be tested in the field against the field specimens (with inferior conformation) to see where they stack up. Is it possible that these show dogs, after being exercised heavily, match, or even surpass the field dog "standard" in performance on the ground? OR, are we beating a dead horse?? :roll:

I don't think anyone said that top show dogs would be or are top field dogs! There are many who can and do finish their show championships, and many that have wonderful/good/acceptable conformation that are also good/great field dogs.
It's not an either or situation.....or both for that matter.
There are many of the top pointers who are put together nicely, some not so nicely.....
Just as there are people in the field world that could care less about conformation and all they care about is performance, there are those who care only about the physical appearance and could care less about the field . Sad but true!

fuzznut wrote:What portions/pieces of any of the individual breed standards (conformation) work against a working dog? Just interested in what each of you would change to make them more in line with what you believe they should be.
Pick your breed and the changes.....
Fuzz

Pointers- size and weight rules, cat paw fault (my pet peeve ).....
So there is this paragraph ,
Balance and Size
Balance and over-all symmetry are more important in the Pointer than size. A smooth, balanced dog is to be more desired than a dog with strongly contrasting good points and faults. Hound or terrier characteristics are most undesirable. Because a sporting dog must have both endurance and power, great variations in size are undesirable, the desirable height and weight being within the following limits

Labs- Well do i need to go there Pretty obvious I'd say,....But thats how they are judged morso i guess :roll:

But i guess you make a good point, the standards in and of themselves don't work against a hunting dog, but the judging can....I think no standard except competition has worked well, that said gotta watch what and from whom you buy,

What portions/pieces of any of the individual breed standards (conformation) work against a working dog? Just interested in what each of you would change to make them more in line with what you believe they should be.
Pick your breed and the changes.....

Many breed standards...IMO ...would be good if more attention were paid to the length of the upper arm....and proportion upper arm to scapula. Short upper arm really limits the front extension and ease of movement.

I think the Pointer pedigree is detrimental in one way by putting so much emphasis on non-working/functional traits, like the head. Pointer folks are always commenting on heads on Facebook. If I hear one more time a bench enthusiast say, "what a stunning head," I'm going to climb a tower and start picking people off. I like an attractive head as much as the next guy, but it should not have the emphasis it does. Putting that much emphasis on heads is displaced emphasis. Take that emphasis and put it into shoulders and you'd be much better off. As it is, the ONLY mention of shoulders in the standard is: "Long, thin, and sloping. The top of blades close together." I mean, are you fricken kidding?

I like that the standard calls for a shorter tail (specifically, no farther than to the hock), but it reads that it shouldn't be carried any higher than 20' over the topline. That just doesn't make any sense. Once upon a time Pointers had low-carried tails. They weren't bred for it, that's just what they had. But, I think a higher tail isn't just more attractive, it's also morepractical. It does make it easier to find a dog it grown-out cover.

With regard to gait, it would be a little unusual, but I think the judge should have to watch the dogs at a full run. Or, the dogs be turned into an area and the judge watch them for movement, gait, attitude, etc. I went to a show with a Miniature Schnauzer friend and the judge had all the dos come to the middle of the ring and interact for a minute so the judge could evaluate their attitude personality.

The biggest beef I have with the standard is that there is so, so much more emphasis placed on asthetics than ther is function or mentality. Not only that, but the portion that is based on function or mentality is not taken to heart. It seems that all the bench people have totally disregarded the very first line in the standard: "The Pointer is bred primarily for sport afield: he should unmistakably look and act the part."

Check out the English setter standard on size as compared to how the pointer size and weight standard is written.

Stoneface, I appreciate the topic and the discussion, but if you can repeat a breeding of a dog that looks like your avatar pointer, what more can a man want? That dog could be a breed standard. Congratulations on that and keep up the good work.

I knew someone would pick the head and tail portion of the pointer standard, and I don't disagree with you at all. Pointers are what is known as a Head breed in the show world....a pretty head will take them a long way, unfortunately over way more important things. The tail portion..... more AF guys should pay attention to the length and shape portion of the pointer tail standard IMO. A short bee sting tail, thick at the root and tapering would lend to less ropey, curled tails when on point, and less damage overall I would think. But where it's carried.... never did make any sense to me.

A while ago when the GWP standard was being revamped, a very long time GWP breeder/judge and I got into it over tail carriage. She wanted it not to be carried above the horizontal, I fought it tooth and nail.... it's just a tail! I don't want to see them pegged off their topline, but don't want to necassarily want to see a dog penalized for carrying it high either.

Show judges, are no different then field judges. They all come to their sport with prejudices, things they like and dislike. Unfortunately instead of judging to the standard of the event they sometimes just put up what they like! That's why we have generic show dogs and some generic field dogs too! Example would be.... dogs that run an all age race being put up in a shooting dog stake and visa versa. We all know it happens. And dogs who really may have incorrect movement for their breed, but they do have that huge side go around the ring. it's impressive.... just not correct.

One last thing for me.... I hate it when judges overlook and excuse poor temperment in the show ring!!!!!!! Hate it!!!!!!!
All of the sporting dogs should be stand up kind of dogs, not shrinking violets. Dogs that slink around with their tail plastered to their butts...... or dogs who refuse to allow the judge to go over them....

Then again, I also hate it when dogs go after their bracemates off the line or tag them around a field. A race off the breakaway is one thing, a mild bump is one thing, but teeth and knocking another dog down.... pick em up!
Fuzz

Nothiing in the dog world comes close to the Iditarod, its the ultimate test. 11 days straight. 100+ Miles per day.

The Iditarod Race does not feature our pointers, except occasional hybrid vigor blood.
Look at Idtarod greats Lance Mackeys or Susan Butcher dogs, or any other winners. You dont see Pointer/GSP in their dogs.
They are Husky Crossbreds-bred with Husky, Border Collie, Saluki/greyhound, GSP/EP and back to husky. I ran a dog team in Whistler and thats why what they used and won with.


Mackeys Teamhttp://latimesblogs.latimes.com/photos/ ... mackey.jpg
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/photos/ ... mackey.jpg

Butchers team (deceased)
http://www.achievement.org/achievers/bu ... t0-023.jpg


Pace is impt. (Husky)
So is love of run. (Collie, Hound, GSP/Pointer) and short coat for warmer trail running (15F+).
So is speed (Saluki/Greyhound).
And they why theyre crossbred often times. But no winning team is all Pointer or GSP.

After 3-4-5 days of hard running, dogs quit or give out.
Huskys have great heart, and pace, and why theyre used, in addition to coat & feet to sleep on the trail and run 1000+ miles.
Walker Coonhounds (Tom Blodgett) set a record pace for any dog over any distance on many sled races and are also sometimes used.
Pointers dont own the corner on speed or endurance events (except in bird trials). And Im not aware of Wehle winning any races...
But know this, if it can run, its been bred to race (Border Collies, GSPs, Pointers, Salukis, Irish Setters, Dalmations, Shepherds, Cotyotes, Wolves even an entire Poodle team ran the Iditarod)

One last thing for me.... I hate it when judges overlook and excuse poor temperment in the show ring!!!!!!! Hate it!!!!!!!
All of the sporting dogs should be stand up kind of dogs, not shrinking violets. Dogs that slink around with their tail plastered to their butts...... or dogs who refuse to allow the judge to go over them....

Then again, I also hate it when dogs go after their bracemates off the line or tag them around a field. A race off the breakaway is one thing, a mild bump is one thing, but teeth and knocking another dog down.... pick em up!
Fuzz

The Euro tests do note poor temperament (shyness, nervousness, yappy/whining, aggression, etc)...and it has helped but breeders still need to be honest with themselves. A good handler gets a dog through the test/around the ring without incident often times. There isn't a venue in any registry where I haven't been warned by an owner (!!) to approach a dog cautiously....and after such a comment, I have no interest anyway. Fuzz...you're right on the money...confident, upbeat. focused dogs are what we need.

IMO....you can breed yourself away from a lot of traits or improve others....temperament abnormalities keep popping up. I've read some research on this that maintains that they are very strongly inherited.