Gun Dog Forum

There is one unescapable FACT about ecollars: They are the fastest, most humane, safest, tool for training a dog ever invented.

Now, certainly you can screw a dog up with an ecollar, same as with a whip, shotgun, or prod. BUT, if you STUDY an ecollar program first, then LEARN HOW TO USE IT, there is no reason in this age of variable intensity collar to EVER hurt dog with one.

Yes, you can train a dog without one, and train him well, but it will result in far more frustration to you and take a heck of a lot longer.

MHWH wrote: I also don't agree with the whole idea about it being a safety factor. If a dog is going toward a road, etc.
I can call him back. Is this going to be absolutely perfect, every time. Probably not, but then neither are
the e-collars. About the time you really want it to work the battery is low in one end or the other. The
collar could be not so snug or slipped in such a way that the contact points don't have a good contact. There
are several ways this system is not perfect, either.

I have no problem with folks using one of these after being trained on it's proper use. It is your dog.



As I said I have seen both sides of this, and I prefer to train without an e-collar.

Mike

One could argue "What If" a person went to go call their dog back verbally and become afflicted with hoarseness, or acute Laryngitis.. What if the dog went deaf? - Certainly all possibilities (However remote) kinda like the battery going dead on a transmitter or reciever.... However, Just like an unloaded shotgun when you pull up to shoot that perfectly pointed bird and nothing happens.. Who's fault is that? Not the shotguns. Someone didn't adequately prepare their equipment before heading afield.

I'll take my chances of subtletly correcting or perhaps even averting potential diasaster with an ecollar on my dog. Chances are high that IF one of my dogs "Got rabbit in their blood" and took off, by the time I seen the car and finished screaming I'd be picking up a carcass and crying.

I still think having a poll or vote will give us a clear indication ?

We can vote for or against e collars ?
Who is using e collars and who doesn't ?

Francois P vd Walt wrote:I still think having a poll or vote will give us a clear indication ?

We can vote for or against e collars ?
Who is using e collars and who doesn't ?

I am not trying to argue with you but I doubt that many people really care. I know I don't.

Charlie

Francois,

There are virtually no professional trainers or competent amateurs in even reasonable numbers in the circle of hard core hunters, hunting professionals or trial people that i know that do not use e-collars including professionals on this site such as Lindley, Jonesy, and a number of others...Off the site, every person with Smith DNA, Hickox, Tracy, Kinkellar, Hurdle, Robertson, Anderson, Twer, even Ben o Williams and the Dog Whisperer all use an e-collar...

With this in mind, if you take a poll and find that people respond that training sans the e-collar is more effective, what conclusion would you draw?

Chukar12 wrote:Francois,

There are virtually no professional trainers or competent amateurs in even reasonable numbers in the circle of hard core hunters,

Oh oh. Now you've done it. Every pro I know hunts hard during bird seasons and the ones I know even go out west for huns etc. Competent amateurs hunt as often as they can here - woodcock, ruffed grouse , turkeys etc..

Sharon wrote:Oh oh. Now you've done it. Every pro I know hunts hard during bird seasons and the ones I know even go out west for huns etc. Competent amateurs hunt as often as they can here - woodcock, ruffed grouse , turkeys etc..

No...No...No, I didn't say that. Those groups aren't mutually exclusive...a pro can be a hardcore hunter and a hardcore hunter can be a pro, what i am saying is that in my line of sight virtually all of them employ the e-collar in their training.

don't get me in trouble Sharon, I am more than competent in that discipline...

birddogger wrote:

Francois P vd Walt wrote:I still think having a poll or vote will give us a clear indication ?

We can vote for or against e collars ?
Who is using e collars and who doesn't ?

I am not trying to argue with you but I doubt that many people really care. I know I don't.

Charlie

With that question phrased in that way I would have to vote for the e-collar even although my one sees use just once every few years. It is too useful a tool to ban, education is a better route to take than banning.

Bill T.

If done correctly you can reinforce training with a collar and then run em naked. Dog is not collar wise.

To bad nobody put a e collar on this guy when he learned how to type.

gonehuntin' wrote:There is one unescapable FACT about ecollars: They are the fastest, most humane, safest, tool for training a dog ever invented.

Now, certainly you can screw a dog up with an ecollar, same as with a whip, shotgun, or prod. BUT, if you STUDY an ecollar program first, then LEARN HOW TO USE IT, there is no reason in this age of variable intensity collar to EVER hurt dog with one.

Yes, you can train a dog without one, and train him well, but it will result in far more frustration to you and take a heck of a lot longer.

I have seen more dogs screwed up by owners then by e collars

kninebirddog wrote:

I have seen more dogs screwed up by owners then by e collars

AMEN! Where's the "LIKE" button?

Francois P vd Walt wrote: I understand they to learn that without the e collar I can do what I want cause the handler is not realy in control, IMO more harm than good is done with e collars. Reason they not used correctly.

I saw a poll on another forum and the question was pretty simple "do you think the e collar has done more harm tha good?", the results were 105 to 9, with the 105 people saying they have helped more dogs than hurt them. I believe there has been exactly 1 FC retriever titled (in the U.S.) in the last decade that was trained without one, I believe that speaks volumes.

trigger1989 wrote:To bad nobody put a e collar on this guy when he learned how to type.

Pity ......

Most dogs are forced to do as they told , to bad they can not develop to their full potential cause they not allowed to learn from trial and error.

Most dogs hunt with fear of punishment rather than companionship, and leave birds behind scared of making a mistake. All this cause we want them ready to hunt long before the actually ready .....

Francois P vd Walt wrote: Most dogs hunt with fear of punishment rather than companionship, and leave birds behind scared of making a mistake. All this cause we want them ready to hunt long before the actually rwady .....

Most dogs are like this? really? proof of this?

Francois P vd Walt wrote:

trigger1989 wrote:To bad nobody put a e collar on this guy when he learned how to type.

Pity ......

Most dogs are forced to do as they told , to bad they can not develop to their full potential cause they not allowed to learn on trial and error.

Most dogs hunt with fear of punishment rather than companionship, and leave birds behind scared of making a mistake. All this cause we want them ready to hunt long before the actually rwady .....

I disagree with this ...Most dogs I see are excited and looking forward to getting out and finding birds and FYI I live on a pheasant preserve..
dogs I see with issues are caused by the handler/trainer...I do not blame tools for problems and a person who doesn't learn how to properly use a tool.
I see dogs who look forward to getting an e collar on because they know that is time to hit the field . not to say I do not see dogs that shy with the collar but again I blame the person not the tool for why the dog has issues

How do most dogs react to the shock? I have never seen an e-collar used and will have to before I form an opinion.

A properly corrected dog should twitch his ear, move his head etc to show he got the message..The correction level whould match that response. He should not cry out or give a big yawn ( anxiety) . The handler should only correct unacceptable behaviours that he knows without a doubt, that the dog understands. I use the bzzz feature as often as a correction of 2.

Using the word "shock" should be banned. It is not a shock - no auxillary power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BDM78DYARc

You are a funny guy Francois. How do you know most of the dogs are like this? Most of the dogs you see? Most of the dogs you have heard of? Most of the dogs you know? Most, in most people's terms is 51% or greater. Thats a big freakin window.

I see hundreds of dogs a season and I would have to say that most are the opposite of what you have described. But then again I don't stop to listen to the dog, I watch their body language.

Francois P vd Walt wrote:
Pity ......

Most dogs are forced to do as they told , to bad they can not develop to their full potential cause they not allowed to learn on trial and error.

Most dogs hunt with fear of punishment rather than companionship, and leave birds behind scared of making a mistake. All this cause we want them ready to hunt long before the actually rwady .....

Really? :roll: What planet in our solar system do you hunt on??

kninebirddog wrote:


I have seen more dogs screwed up by owners then by e collars

Me too. Funny thing is, these people that won't use the ecollar on a dog, will, out of shear frustration, catch the dog, whip it unmercifully 15 minutes later for something the dog has no idea he did, or climb on and beat the crap out of the dog. Real humane lot, they are.

Francois P vd Walt wrote:

trigger1989 wrote:To bad nobody put a e collar on this guy when he learned how to type.

Pity ......

Most dogs are forced to do as they told , to bad they can not develop to their full potential cause they not allowed to learn on trial and error.

Most dogs hunt with fear of punishment rather than companionship, and leave birds behind scared of making a mistake. All this cause we want them ready to hunt long before the actually rwady .....

Francois -

Most dogs are forced to do as they are told. Yeah, that is right. So what? That is called training.

Most dogs hunt with fear of punishment... That is most certainly hogwash, unless the trainer is a Neanderthal. And for the record, you can screw up a dog just dandy with your voice, hands or a checkcord, prong collar or choke collar. Screwing up a dog is just easier and requires less personal involvement with an e-collar.

...rather than companionship. I want my dogs to hunt as a pack with ME as the pack leader. I want them to WANT to hunt with me and for me. I suspect most knowledgeable hunter/trainers want their dogs to hunt in ths manner also. That involves some of the aforementioned training and some behavioral conditioning such that the dog WANTS to do what you want it to do. the companion and buddy part comes AFTER the dog has learned to do it my way and AFTER the dog has learned to enjoy doing it my way.

All this cause we want them to hunt before they are ready.... I will agree that this sometimes happens, but again, that is no fault of the e-collar. Once again, you have to blame the trainer not the training tool.

Just a few weeks ago I had the opportunity to watch a trial where adult all age dogs were run in an hour long stake. Adolescent all age dogs were run in half hour stakes. All age judgement criteria place high value on independence and the widest possible ground application. It is common for dogs in such stakes to run well out of sight of their handler. I can safely say that all of the dogs entered in the all age and derby stakes were trained using an e-collar, at least to some degree. These dogs showed no fear, no intimidation and no hesitation to "go for it". Oh and of course, they were not wearing an e-collar durning the competition because that is not permitted. These dogs can easily run off, but they don't. In point of fact, they are out of sight so they essentially already have run off and they choose to come back.

It is far easier to blame an inanimate object than to place the blame where it truly belongs. In the USA, they have been trying to blame guns for shooting homicides and cars for vehicular homicides for many years now. Guns don't kill people...people kill people and sometimes they use guns. Sometimes they use automobiles. E-collars do not ruin dogs. Lousy trainers ruin dogs and sometimes they use e-collars.

RayG

One of the best posts I have read in a VERY long time.

gonehuntin' wrote:

kninebirddog wrote:


I have seen more dogs screwed up by owners then by e collars

Me too. Funny thing is, these people that won't use the ecollar on a dog, will, out of shear frustration, catch the dog, whip it unmercifully 15 minutes later for something the dog has no idea he did, or climb on and beat the crap out of the dog. Real humane lot, they are.

Amen!!!!

Charlie

Francois P vd Walt wrote:

trigger1989 wrote:To bad nobody put a e collar on this guy when he learned how to type.

Pity ......

Most dogs hunt with fear of punishment rather than companionship, and leave birds behind scared of making a mistake. All this cause we want them ready to hunt long before the actually ready .....

The correct wording would have been when a e collar is not used correctly, on birds this could lead to the dog being scared to find birds.
Imo All the above leads to a broken relationship with your dog,

In most cases the handlers need the training not the dogs !

birddogger wrote:

gonehuntin' wrote:

kninebirddog wrote:


I have seen more dogs screwed up by owners then by e collars

Me too. Funny thing is, these people that won't use the ecollar on a dog, will, out of shear frustration, catch the dog, whip it unmercifully 15 minutes later for something the dog has no idea he did, or climb on and beat the crap out of the dog. Real humane lot, they are.

Amen!!!!

Charlie

Some people should never own a dog !

Man, I am no pro trainer by any stretch so I could have very well screwed my dog up. He obviously hates his e-collar. Everytime I grab it his tail goes crazy, he runs to the closest door and spins in crazy circles, he stares at me with crazed intensity and whines until finally I strap the thing to his neck and allow him to explode out of whatever door he is standing by. I thought he was showing excitement...but I guess I could be reading it wrong..... WHAT????? Dogs, unless abused (and ABUSED is the word in this case), love the collar. They know, when it comes out, its go time. They make a direct correlation between the collar and fun. Thats like imagining a small house dog running to hide when its owner grabs its lead. This does not happen unless the owner is ABUSIVE with his/her powers over the dog.

Francois P vd Walt wrote:

trigger1989 wrote:To bad nobody put a e collar on this guy when he learned how to type.

Pity ......

Most dogs are forced to do as they told , to bad they can not develop to their full potential cause they not allowed to learn from trial and error.

Most dogs hunt with fear of punishment rather than companionship, and leave birds behind scared of making a mistake. All this cause we want them ready to hunt long before the actually ready .....

I don't think there is one iota of truth in your post here in the states at least, where most dogs are trained with e-collars. As far as effecting the dogs attitude, training no matter how done, is what changes their attitude. That is exactly what we are working towards, a dog that hunts with us and not by itself. What makes anyone think that an e-collar is worse that a whip, achoke chain, a pronged collar or any other tool you use? I have seen more damage done with a CC than a collar. If you don't believe in e-collars, I am oing to suggest you not use a gun when hunting. Both are just tools to accomplish what we are trying to do. Abuse comes from the trainer, not the tool.

Ezzy

I sure don't think most dogs hunt with fear. I know that mine don't.
I used and e-collar during training, and I have it one most of the time when hunting. But I don't think I used it more than one once all last season. And that was a light nick to stop him from chasing a pheasant that I missed.

You can abuse a dog with a CC or and e-collar. Neither are good or bad, Its the hand on the tool that is good or bad.

i think mr walt should get a e collar and a e collar into dvd try it out a then let us what he thinks

Francois P vd Walt wrote:[Some people should never own a dog !

Some people should never post on subjects on which they possess no knowledge other than their own uninformed biases.

Come to think of it, no one should.

I am not understanding you or your intentions. You post a thread in question form then let it gather responses from people trying to assist you. Then come up with "a matter of fact" or "Contrair" opinion for the same question you solicit advice for.

This started out as a pretty good discussion, and seems to be turning into a whizzing contest.

This group is not a cross section of America, or even of American hunters, and possibly not even of bird hunters who use pointers. It is a group of people with similar interests and activities. A poll conducted here would give biased results. With no actual numbers on dog training available, every thing presented is opinion. Even the OP is presenting only opinions, possibly based on false assumptions about American trainers and hunters. The vast majority of American bird hunters do not appear on the news or on the internet, or take part in field trials .

The e-collar is a tool. Like any tool , it can help or hurt. Some chose to use it and use it effectively and humanely. Other use it wrong or in a cruel manner and ruin a good dog. Others don't use it, and produce fine dogs, or screwed up dogs. Problems are usually human induced.

My personal opinion is that the e-collar is not used that much, but the nature of hunting with pointers and American desire for results now leads many here to use the collar. It does work when used properly. But the same results can be accomplished without using a collar. It may take longer, but that is time spent working with dogs or actually hunting over dogs. I don't mind spending my time hunting or working my dog.

As for dogs being forced to do as they are told, of course they are. Dogs are an artificially created species, bred to perform specific tasks. The drive to perform is hard wired in, and the dog is happiest when performing its intended function. Training can be enjoyable for both parties, and a dog that knows what to do and how to do it is a happy dog-also is well fed, cared for, and not abandoned. Training, vs trial and error, promotes dog happiness and well being, and a wisely used e-collar can actually be responsible for producing a happier dog. I don't want my dog learning to avoid cars using trial and error.

As a personal disclaimer, I hunt over a flushing dog who has been bred to hunt close. I used a cheap collar to stop her running into the road. I had to zap her twice, then she learned. Very mild zaps, tried first on my wrist.

This thread is no longer about ECollars its about idiots who abuse dogs, ECollars are this best most humane training tool ever the same guy that will abuse his dog with an ECollar will beat him with whatever he can pick up, but when slight pressure is applied with the collar it is the best tool ever, I think we are talking more about people here than equipment, you can train a dog just fine without ECollars but it takes longer, the main thing here is don't mistreat him
Fester

Francois P vd Walt wrote:

Mr. JFH wrote:Maybe you should add a poll to this topic. I'm curious to the % of people who don't use E-collars at all.

That would a very good idea ! How does one go about adding poll ?

Francois -

I do think that a poll on this or several other sites that I know of, would be quite biased in some regards. The average poster on this board is far from the average bird hunter.

I know several on this site who actively participate in field trials. That is an extreme minority of folks who birdhunt. To give you an idea of how small is small...in the state of Delaware, where I reside, there are less than fifty active upland field trialers and that includes ALL trial formats. There are probably slightly more folks who actively participate in hunt tests. Delaware sells about 15,000 hunting licenses annually. In the state of New Jersey where I used to reside, there are probably less than 100 active field trialers and at most, twice that many hunt test folks. New Jersey license sales are on the order of 100,000 I believe.

Thee are also several folks on this site who guide upland hunts, train dogs professionally(active or retired) or who breed bird dogs. Again these are extreme minorities.

It is my distinct impression that the folks who post on here with regularity are VERY serious about certain aspects of upland hunting and/or competition with dogs and their sport is a very important part of their lives. That is most certainly not typical or average in the USA.

RayG

Fester wrote:This thread is no longer about E Collars its about idiots who abuse dogs, E Collars are this best most humane training tool ever the same guy that will abuse his dog with an E Collar will beat him with whatever he can pick up, but when slight pressure is applied with the collar it is the best tool ever, I think we are talking more about people here than equipment, you can train a dog just fine without Collars but it takes longer, the main thing here is don't mistreat him
Fester

Well said. A person who is abusive trying to train a dog, will be abusive regardless of what tools that person is using or if that person is using no tools at all. Now, just let me make something clear that I don't believe has been said yet. I think the term, "training with the e-collar" is not accurate. I don't want to speak for everybody but I think most of us teach/train first [other than trash breaking] and then transition all commands to the e-collar and reinforce with the e-collar, which if everything has been done correctly, seldom has to be used. IMO, and without meaning any disrespect, I think either the OP has no clue or he is just trying to stir things up. JMO.

Charlie

So we all have our own opinion and training aids or techniques to train our dogs, we fortunate the dogs adjust to our personalities !

This was a sensitive topic, some for some against, what ever, we love our four legged companions and hunting partners. They make us happy, sad and dissapoint us at times. Whatever works for you !

Remember we all love our dogs !

Happy hunting and training !

Francois P vd Walt wrote:So we all have our own opinion and training aids or techniques to train our dogs, we fortunate the dogs adjust to our personalities !

This was a sensitive topic, some for some against, what ever, we love our four legged companions and hunting partners. They make us happy, sad and dissapoint us at times. Whatever works for you !

Remember we all love our dogs !

Happy hunting and training !

Francois -

You are right...there are many who profess an aversion to the e-collar as a training device...so much so that it is apparently banned in some countries. That is indeed a shame because it is perhaps the single most significant advance in dog training in the last fifty years. In the hands of a knowledgeable trainer it is postively amazing how far it can help take a dog's training, with no noticeable negative impact or imprint on the dog.

It has allowed the training of dogs from both the difficult to handle end of the spectrum and the too soft to put pressure on end of the spectrum...to be trained to the highest levels. Dogs that would have been washouts and culls are relatively easily made into very serviceable dogs, occaskionally even superior performers... with proper use of the e-collar.

However, as you say, we all choose to train our dogs our own way.

RayG

Yes by all means if you want to train your dog without the use of an ECollar as a tool I am 100% for it you can be proud of your accomplishment and that is a good thing for you and the dog, I mean hey we done it for years
Fester

Ray G. nailed it.

E-collars are a tool - nothing more. People train dogs, not the e-collar; I'm pretty sure I'm paraphrasing something I read somewhere with this, but if your dog does not know a command at 6 feet, it won't know it at 600 feet either whether it's wearing an e-collar or not.

I start all my yard work without using the e-collar, but the dog is wearing it. The collar doesn't give the command, I do. Then when the training is more advanced, the collar can be use to reinforce the command, not give it. And after enough time training, usually the tone from the collar is enough to reinforce a command, no stimulation is required.

That's right, stimulation, not shock. When set at the proper level the collar gets the dog's attention, it does not punish the dog by causing pain.

That's how I use an e-collar.

nj gsp wrote:Ray G. nailed it.

E-collars are a tool - nothing more. People train dogs, not the e-collar; I'm pretty sure I'm paraphrasing something I read somewhere with this, but if your dog does not know a command at 6 feet, it won't know it at 600 feet either whether it's wearing an e-collar or not.

I start all my yard work without using the e-collar, but the dog is wearing it. The collar doesn't give the command, I do. Then when the training is more advanced, the collar can be use to reinforce the command, not give it. And after enough time training, usually the tone from the collar is enough to reinforce a command, no stimulation is required.

That's right, stimulation, not shock. When set at the proper level the collar gets the dog's attention, it does not punish the dog by causing pain.

That's how I use an e-collar.

+2 that was well said !