“E“ collar or no collar ?

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Francois P vd Walt
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“E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Francois P vd Walt » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:03 pm

I have noticed on photo's most guys run their dogs with collars, us in S. Africa don't due to fences and we worried with dogs getting hurt.

And

We get good results is it realy necessary for e collars ?
IMO you will get further without a e collar, the team bond is stronger and the dog really hunts for you !

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Sharon » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:34 pm

What do you do when your dog is away out in the field, you call him in and he ignores you, turns his head and takes off?
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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Francois P vd Walt » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:43 pm

Sharon wrote:What do you do when your dog is away out in the field, you call him in and he ignores you, turns his head and takes off?
You go back home work on recalling, you have taken him out to soon or have the wrong dog.

If I have one of those I take them out let them run off...... go back to the truck have a beer they come back, load him in the truck and hunt with the other dogs. What also works well when they younger and you put when down they run off hide behind bushes they soon learn to always watch were you are.

Again chosing the right dog, I like on the edge dogs and hate dogs falling over my and their feet 20 yards out ...

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Sharon » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:46 pm

Sounds like a lot of work that an e collar could solve quickly. :)
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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by QuillGordon » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:05 pm

go back to the truck have a beer they come back,
I like yer style

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Fester » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:22 pm

I like ECollars, i sort of like having the dog trained before he is 6 years old, LOL
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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by ultracarry » Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:43 pm

Sounds like an ecollar is better for the dog.... Place orientated training comes to mind.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by gotpointers » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:26 pm

QuillGordon wrote:
go back to the truck have a beer they come back,
I like yer style
So do i. Except for the GSP's

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Trekmoor » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:45 pm

I have an e-collar but tend to use it only for aversive training for sheep and deer chasers. I used to trial labs, G.S.P.'s and a Brittany without those dogs ever having had a collar on their necks. Like the original poster, if I have a dog that starts to go out of control then I retrain it at closer distances and then "build" my way out again to longer distances....... I don't think I'd want to own a dog that really needed to be e-collar trained for day to day gundog work.

Maybe I would collar train a lot more if I lived in the U.S. ..... you seem to have a lot more hazards than we have in the way of dog eating animals, skunks, porcupines and poisonous snakes. For the great majority of dogs here it just isn't needed not even for retriever trial dogs but I understand your trials are a bit different to ours.
I have been unable to come to a firm conclusion about e-collars but I would not like to see them banned ..... they are very useful for some dogs in some situations. I feel they are probably used a bit too little in Britain ..... and a bit too much in the U.S. maybe ?

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Hattrick » Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:49 pm

Sounds to me you like to drink beer

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by cptn » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:13 pm

Fester wrote:I like ECollars, i sort of like having the dog trained before he is 6 years old, LOL
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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Chukar12 » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:05 pm

You cannot duplicate the timing and timliness of corrections with traditional compulsion methods that you can achieve with an e collar. Used properly it eliminates the negative reaction that dogs normally get from human temper tantrums.
Used improperly it will produce the same results a moron and his or her boots will.. I would never argue with those that choose to train without them, but I strongly disagree that there is any advantage to it.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by birddogger » Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:08 pm

Chukar12 wrote:You cannot duplicate the timing and timliness of corrections with traditional compulsion methods that you can achieve with an e collar. Used properly it eliminates the negative reaction that dogs normally get from human temper tantrums.
Used improperly it will produce the same results a moron and his or her boots will.. I would never argue with those that choose to train without them, but I strongly disagree that there is any advantage to it.
This was pretty much what I was going to say but you said it better than I would have anyway.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Stoneface » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:29 pm

I don't like to use an eCollar for much more than insurance. If a dog jumps a deer and is headed for a highway or something, I may bump him with the collar, but I don't really run them next to any busy roads, so I don't mess with the eCollar that much. I will use it sometimes to help reinforce a recall, but all obedience, teaching a dog to Sit, Whoa, Heel is done with a prong collar. I'd rather put my hands on a dog and let it be no misunderstanding that I'm the one issuing the correction. My dogs are house dogs, though, and when I'm at home I maintain a leader/follower relationship that carries into the field. Sometimes, in the field, if the dog doesn't come I still won't use the collar. Sometimes I'd just rather leave the collar alone and walk out to get the dog. The moment he blows off a recall he knows he messed up and when I correct him there is no misunderstanding as to why. Besides, if you put your hands on a dog to correct him, then it's much more natural, as opposed to being a couple hundred yards from the dog and they get zapped - that doesn't reach the dog on a primal level.
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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Francois P vd Walt » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:40 pm

Timing in corrective training being the most importend with dogs a e collar is handy at a distance.
Why run them with a collar all the time if this means they could end up stuck on it ?

I understand they to learn that without the e collar I can do what I want cause the handler is not realy in control, IMO more harm than good is done with e collars. Reason they not used correctly.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Stoneface » Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:46 pm

I agree with you. If people used the properly then they could be beneficial, but too many people use them as an easy button. It's like they think the more they push that button the better trained their dog will be.

I've never worried about my dogs getting caught on a fence or anything like that. Since the dogs only wear the collar for short periods of time you fasten them fairly snug. On top of the I trim the excess strap on my collars and double them back through the buckle. Getting caught honestly never occured to me, I've never heard of it happening with an eCollar.
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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by birddogger » Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:52 pm

I have to assume that anyone who is against the use of the e-collar has never witnessed the proper use of one and is uninformed on what it is used for. Also, just because there are people who abuse the use of them does not make the product itself a bad thing. That would be like saying that somebody committing a crime with a gun or shooting somebody makes the gun bad and something to avoid. The e-collar is a great tool/aid and is probably the best thing that technology has ever come up with for dog owners, trainers and handlers. JMO.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Francois P vd Walt » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:02 pm

Francois P vd Walt wrote:Timing in corrective training being the most importend with dogs a e collar is handy at a distance..
I am not saying collars a wrong I am saying 9 out of 10 e collar owners do not know how or when to use it.

It can be a great training aid still IMO You will have a better relationship and understanding if you get your dog fully trained without it.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by birddogger » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:15 pm

Francois P vd Walt wrote:
Francois P vd Walt wrote:Timing in corrective training being the most importend with dogs a e collar is handy at a distance..
I am not saying collars a wrong I am saying 9 out of 10 e collar owners do not know how or when to use it.

It can be a great training aid still IMO You will have a better relationship and understanding if you get your dog fully trained without it.
OK, two things here Francois. First thing is I don't think 9 out of ten owners do not know how or when to use it, but that is JMO. The second thing is that you do still fully train the dog without it. :wink: I think that is what a lot of people are not understanding.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by ultracarry » Sun Apr 22, 2012 11:35 pm

I think birddogger is on to something. Also I don't think the majority use a collar in the US... Although it may seem that way when you read this forum. I may even venture to say that 80% of gsp's that are hunted don't get a collar and the owners don't care too much about training.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Jakezilla » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:52 am

birddogger wrote:I have to assume that anyone who is against the use of the e-collar has never witnessed the proper use of one and is uninformed on what it is used for. Also, just because there are people who abuse the use of them does not make the product itself a bad thing. That would be like saying that somebody committing a crime with a gun or shooting somebody makes the gun bad and something to avoid. The e-collar is a great tool/aid and is probably the best thing that technology has ever come up with for dog owners, trainers and handlers. JMO.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Trekmoor » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:02 am

ultracarry wrote: Also I don't think the majority use a collar in the US... Although it may seem that way when you read this forum.
That is the perception of e-collar use in the U.S. in Britain. To us it almost reads like pups are sold with an e-collar included in the price. This was the way I thought about 25 years ago after reading an ad in a U.S. gundog magazine. The ad was for pups for sale and it included the words, "bred to take the collar." I didn't like that at all !
Since then and since reading this forum I have come to realise just how carefully and with how much forethought some of you introduce and use the collar. Learning it's proper use was my main reason for joining this forum, few trainers in Britain will admit to owning an e-collar and none of them take training classes explaining it's proper use...... they'd probably get lynched by the press if they did !
I agree it is a useful tool when used with thought. It remains a tool of last resort for me however.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by bumper52 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:47 am

I train retrievers. I train with an e-collar. The e-collar has NOT made me a better trainer. It has given me a tool to help me with one of the principles of dog training: When giving a command, be in position to correct and enforce the dog immediately for any refusal. The e-collar for me is simply corrections made at distances, necessary to achieve maximum potential for a dog. After a proper e-collar conditioning program (which is generally only a 7-10 day session, I rarely need to use the collar on a dog.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Jrclmn18 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:18 am

Communication between handler and dog is much more clear from the beginning with an e-collar. The repeated necessary use of the collar is a sign for the need of more concentrated training. In an ideal hunt, the dog is never corrected with the collar. Day to day, however, attitude may change and danger may present itself to mandate the use of the collar. The Manual beeper tone is a great advantage to keep the handler from having to say a word or blow a whistle and still communicate with the dog if needed without electronic stimulus. It makes for a much more pleasant hunt for the handler and any hunting partner. The tone is used, by far, more than the stimulus if the dog is properly conditioned.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by JIM K » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:54 am

i never used a e-collar. cost and not knowing how to use it and why etc is negative to me.
only time i ever had problem with my dogs over 46 yrs was CHASING DEER.
but i just yelled at dog when i caught up with him or her.after about 3 times, they would stop chasing deer.

i do like collar that has beeper or hawk call on only.that is nice if you want to find your dog or if he or she is on point.

but e-collar, so far i have no use for it but again, i never used one.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by rinker » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:25 am

I use an electric collar. I didn't know what I was doing when I started but I have learned a lot over the years. I actually think that the collar makes it easier on the dog. An ecollar can be used in an abusive way but so can a prong collar, or a rope, or your hands. The vast majority of the stimulation is at a very low level. A dog that is in pain is not learning, no matter what tool you are useing. I am not trying to convince any one else as to what training tools they should use.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Francois P vd Walt » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:46 am

birddogger wrote:
Francois P vd Walt wrote:
Francois P vd Walt wrote:Timing in corrective training being the most importend with dogs a e collar is handy at a distance..
I am not saying collars a wrong I am saying 9 out of 10 e collar owners do not know how or when to use it.

It can be a great training aid still IMO You will have a better relationship and understanding if you get your dog fully trained without it.
OK, two things here Francois. First thing is I don't think 9 out of ten owners do not know how or when to use it, but that is JMO. The second thing is that you do still fully train the dog without it. :wink: I think that is what a lot of people are not understanding.

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Charlie my first qoute e collars are handy at a distance, I have used them on fur ! I have not seen photo's here with dogs without collars, therefore I think everybody uses them all the time.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Elkhunter » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:48 am

I never let my dog out of his crate without his e-collar and tracking collar.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by DogNewbie » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:48 am

JIM K wrote:i never used a e-collar. cost and not knowing how to use it and why etc is negative to me.
only time i ever had problem with my dogs over 46 yrs was CHASING DEER.
but i just yelled at dog when i caught up with him or her.after about 3 times, they would stop chasing deer.

i do like collar that has beeper or hawk call on only.that is nice if you want to find your dog or if he or she is on point.

but e-collar, so far i have no use for it but again, i never used one.
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<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/3GRSbr0EYYU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

*EDIT* Embedding didn't work..... :oops:

http://youtu.be/3GRSbr0EYYU

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Francois P vd Walt » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:02 pm

http://youtu.be/3GRSbr0EYYU

This was very fery funny ! Anyone that has owned a gundog has either been :lol: :lol: :lol: or is going to end up in a similar situation ! HA ! :D :D

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by ultracarry » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:17 pm

See how an ecollar can be used to help save a dog???

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Sharon » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:20 pm

Stoneface wrote:I agree with you. If people used the properly then they could be beneficial, but too many people use them as an easy button. It's like they think the more they push that button the better trained their dog will be.

I've never worried about my dogs getting caught on a fence or anything like that. Since the dogs only wear the collar for short periods of time you fasten them fairly snug. On top of the I trim the excess strap on my collars and double them back through the buckle. Getting caught honestly never occured to me, I've never heard of it happening with an eCollar.
A regular collar can get caught too. I had a dog jump off the dock and not come up. Turned out his collar was hooked on a submerged branch. I did get him out in time.
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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by MTR » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:29 pm

Francois P vd Walt wrote:http://youtu.be/3GRSbr0EYYU

This was very fery funny ! Anyone that has owned a gundog has either been :lol: :lol: :lol: or is going to end up in a similar situation ! HA ! :D :D
Nope, not me - i just push the button on the e-collar and he stops and recalls back to me. No hacking at the dog as he runs uncontrollably wild where I don't want him. :)
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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Francois P vd Walt » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:30 pm

I do have to say training with it would be good idea if you have a serious problem !
IMO I still would not hunt with a e collar, not with any collar.

ok ok ok after watching that video with the deer, the cars etc. that dude needs a collar asap and he should not have taken his dog straight into that situation.

Still very funny ..... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by MTR » Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:51 pm

I am immediately reminded of this thread from earlier this year reagrding wearing collars while huinting viewtopic.php?f=69&t=34210
I would say that anyone in the US that runs or hunt their dogs without a collar (standard collar) is in the very small minority.
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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Hattrick » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:50 pm

thats funny!!!

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by MHWH » Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:13 pm

Here is my basic problem with e-colars. ( I have used one. I had a lab trained that way, and
I continued in that manner.)

In my opinion there have been more dogs messed up with the e-collar than helped with the
e-collar. It goes along with the number of collars sold. More collar owners don't use them
correctly than those that do use them correctly. Be it ignorance or impatience. I have heard
several times guys complaining that their dog won't do as they wish so they are going out
and get a "shock" collar and put it to that dog until it behaves as he would like.

Besides all this, Bob Wehle said, late in life, that if he were younger he would campaign to
have e-collars out lawed. He knew way more about dogs and training than 99% of people
who have bird dogs today. Good enough for me.

Men tend to strong arm the training. Women don't normally. There are more gentle horse trainers
because you can't easily strong arm a horse. You can abuse a dog and there is not much he can do.
Most men can physically over power the dog. Not so with a horse. Women don't naturally go this route
so they fit into horse training more than dog training where force is used more often than not.

It's our male ego which wants to control things all the time that causes all of this.

IMHO

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:37 pm

MHWH wrote:Besides all this, Bob Wehle said, late in life, that if he were younger he would campaign to
have e-collars out lawed. He knew way more about dogs and training than 99% of people
who have bird dogs today. Good enough for me.
The comparison to draw at the time Bob Wehle said this and keep the proper perspective is computers or other electronic technology. Those collars were for trash breaking and they were brutally strong and very inconsistent, I know; I am ashamed to say that I used them to break hounds on trash. They and the methods used are not the same as collars of today. I share your reverence for Wehle's work and knowledge...however, even the "Global Warming Alarmist" James Lovelock is reflecting back today at the wisdom of his absolutes a decade ago and adjusting his thought. Things change.

I don't see dogs ruined by collars; to me it's the gun control argument. Collars don't shock...people shock. The dogs I see that are "ruined" would have been ruined anyway because the numbskulls who get shut down reactions would use whatever means are at their disposal such as feet, hands, choke collars and shotgun pellets for the remote work to get things done. In fact, though they are misused in my opinion ... collars are keeping a bunch of dogs out shelters because control freaks who would never learn to train anyway use them to keep the range and recall they so desperately want without going through the reps to get it.

In competition dogs dont wear a collar, though the majority are trained with the assistance of a collar for a reason...it is the most effective method to keep style and intensity. Once you have accomplished what you set out to do and the dog is conditioned through associations (positive and negative) and has had enough repititions and generalization then the collar; like the checkcord, place board, pinch collar, clicker, Wonderlead, launcher, etc... only becomes necessary to re-visit the training sequence.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by MHWH » Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:43 pm

Chukar,

Yeah it's the guy on the button, I know. But so many don't use them correctly.
They are lazy or stupid and won't spend the time to learn to do it right.
This board probably does not have many like that. These guys are really
into the whole bird dog thing. You and I "see" this sort of guy here and
maybe on other boards like this so much we can get the idea that we are
the majority. Unfortunately I don't think we are. I don't know how we could get
the stats to prove this out one way or another, but there are a lot of people
with more money than brains sort of speak.

I am sure they may use other means to punish the dog if the e-collar was not available
but the collar sure makes it easy to reach for the button.

I was out with a friend and his pointer one fine day. Really good dog, and smart. He
was yelling and hitting the button to get the dog, he had clearly not spent enough
time with, to hunt where he wanted the dog to hunt. I finally had enough. I asked him
if we could switch up. He would then put on the collar and I would get to hit the
juice every time he missed a bird. I reminded him about how he was an accomplished
skeet shooter, and therefore should never miss a quail or a pheasant.

He sort of got the point. He had lots of training in shooting, and still made mistakes.
Should he get blasted for it, sounds like how he treated his dog. He did not volunteer
to wear the collar.

This is not my only example.

Mike

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Hattrick » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:21 pm

I will say this in dog training TIMING is the most important thing with giving a correction to a dog. There is not a better or faster tool than a ecollar to do so if used properly. If you don't like it don't use it. If someone is too smart or stupid to understand how to use thats not fault. It also could save a dogs life which gets over looked way to much. I'll keep mine

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ultracarry
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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by ultracarry » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:25 pm

The minority are the abusers of any sort...... Moderation is key in most situations. A lot of people don't need to use more than very light stimulation.. even I can't feel it.

I have had the same sort of interaction with someone like the one you had MHWH. Instead it was a four month old puppy and he did not do any yard work with the dog or teach it anything. After a few minutes I told him to stop, put the collar away, and that he didn't know WTH he was doing. That was the last time I talked to him. He has moved his kennel up to northern CA.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by prairiefirepointers » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:39 pm

Stoneface wrote:I agree with you. If people used the properly then they could be beneficial, but too many people use them as an easy button. It's like they think the more they push that button the better trained their dog will be.

I've never worried about my dogs getting caught on a fence or anything like that. Since the dogs only wear the collar for short periods of time you fasten them fairly snug. On top of the I trim the excess strap on my collars and double them back through the buckle. Getting caught honestly never occured to me, I've never heard of it happening with an eCollar.
Like you mentioned in your aforementioned post, its cheap insurance... I'd MUCH rather have a collar on my dog and not need to utilize it, than NOT have one and desperately need it. Could it be viewed as Responsible versus Irresponsible dog handling?

I too keep collars fitting correctly and "Double or Triple back" the excess collar strap through the buckles. If the excess ever comes undone I immediately call the dog in and fix it. I see people who put collars on their dogs and leave the straps hanging... I don't know if its worthy of calling dangerous, but its dang sure unsightly and untidy and looks like Sanford & Son. :lol:
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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by birddogger » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:54 am

Like you mentioned in your aforementioned post, its cheap insurance... I'd MUCH rather have a collar on my dog and not need to utilize it, than NOT have one and desperately need it. Could it be viewed as Responsible versus Irresponsible dog handling?
And the fact that some or a lot of people misuse them is no reason to be against them or not want to use one yourself. I just don't understand that line of thinking at all. :?

Charlie
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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Mr. JFH » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:21 am

Maybe you should add a poll to this topic. I'm curious to the % of people who don't use E-collars at all.

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by MHWH » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:42 am

Like I wrote above I have some experience with the e-collar, still have a TriTronics somewhwere.
I have trained both with and with out, and simply like w/o better.

It may take a little longer w/o to apply any sort of training, but I say that from my point. If I had
several well trained dogs to run a pup with I could speed up the process considerably. I don't think time alone
is a reason to use one.

I also don't agree with the whole idea about it being a safety factor. If a dog is going toward a road, etc.
I can call him back. Is this going to be absolutely perfect, every time. Probably not, but then neither are
the e-collars. About the time you really want it to work the battery is low in one end or the other. The
collar could be not so snug or slipped in such a way that the contact points don't have a good contact. There
are several ways this system is not perfect, either.

I have no problem with folks using one of these after being trained on it's proper use. It is your dog.

As I said I have seen both sides of this, and I prefer to train without an e-collar.

Mike

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by brad27 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:51 am

I also don't agree with the whole idea about it being a safety factor. If a dog is going toward a road, etc.
I can call him back. Is this going to be absolutely perfect, every time. Probably not
:?

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Francois P vd Walt » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:10 am

Mr. JFH wrote:Maybe you should add a poll to this topic. I'm curious to the % of people who don't use E-collars at all.
That would a very good idea ! How does one go about adding poll ?

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Mr. JFH » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:13 am

Francois P vd Walt wrote:
Mr. JFH wrote:Maybe you should add a poll to this topic. I'm curious to the % of people who don't use E-collars at all.
That would a very good idea ! How does one go about adding poll ?
I have no idea, but I've seen it done on this forum and there hasn't been one on this subject

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Mr. JFH » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:23 am

I figured it out. Go to ur original post and click edit. Under ur post next to the "option" you'll see "add attachment" and " add poll".

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Re: “E“ collar or no collar ?

Post by Sharon » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:32 pm

Francois P vd Walt wrote:[
Charlie my first qoute e collars are handy at a distance, I have used them on fur ! I have not seen photo's here with dogs without collars, therefore I think everybody uses them all the time.
That's an interesting observation. I think people want a picture /avatar of their dog in action in the field etc. , hence the e-collar in most pics.
Interesting how an impression can be unknowing given . :)
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