Late Bloomers

ST8 UPPOINTERS · Post by **ST8 UPPOINTERS** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:14 pm

Wild birds are a dif story.. pointing libbys yes, handling wild birds probably not.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:35 pm

Would you agree or disagree that developing a gundog is different then developing a trial dog. For me a year old gundog busting birds is a little different then a year old trial prospect doing it.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:43 pm

bigsugar wrote:Would you agree or disagree that developing a gundog is different then developing a trial dog. For me a year old gundog busting birds is a little different then a year old trial prospect doing it.

Only if you think you want of win an AF Derby. Otherwise, why worry about it.

Or did you mean it was bad if a year old gundog was busting birds.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:03 pm

Yeah that's what I was getting after. Is it worse for a gundog prospect to be chasing birds then a trial prospect. I don't do much in the way of bird manner stuff with derby aged dogs. I'm more concerned with a finished dog as an adult then a mannerly derby that fizzles out.

Don't you think gundog folks have a higher expectation of young dogs being mannerly on birds moreso then trial folks do.

ST8 UPPOINTERS · Post by **ST8 UPPOINTERS** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:45 pm

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:08 pm

ST8 UPPOINTERS wrote:Still bumping at 10 months? Ya that would be slow..

So not so slow?

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:12 pm

It all depends on what you want. I am not going to speak for most hunters but for myself I don't train a dog until he is developed and matured. I don't want a one year old wonder

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:21 pm

cjuve wrote:It all depends on what you want. I am not going to speak for most hunters but for myself I don't train a dog until he is developed and matured. I don't want a one year old wonder

Thats what im getting at CJ it depends on what you want in the end.At 10mth id want a dog still building that fire inside,learning to cover ground the right way not a wonder derby.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:22 pm

bigsugar wrote: Don't you think gundog folks have a higher expectation of young dogs being mannerly on birds moreso then trial folks do.

Most hunters that I encounter think they should have finished dog performance from a 6 month puppy. I call it the "do no harm" philosophy.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:23 pm

tn red wrote:
cjuve wrote:It all depends on what you want. I am not going to speak for most hunters but for myself I don't train a dog until he is developed and matured. I don't want a one year old wonder
Thats what im getting at CJ it depends on what you want in the end.At 10mth id want a dog still building that fire inside,learning to cover ground the right way not a wonder derby.

A big +1!!

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:28 pm

slistoe wrote:
bigsugar wrote: Don't you think gundog folks have a higher expectation of young dogs being mannerly on birds moreso then trial folks do.
Most hunters that I encounter think they should have finished dog performance from a 6 month puppy. I call it the "do no harm" philosophy.

I guess I am different than most hunters if this is the case. All I am doing as far as hunting is concerned is letting the pup develop and have fun for the first year or so.

Charlie

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:31 pm

birddogger wrote:
slistoe wrote:
bigsugar wrote: Don't you think gundog folks have a higher expectation of young dogs being mannerly on birds moreso then trial folks do.
Most hunters that I encounter think they should have finished dog performance from a 6 month puppy. I call it the "do no harm" philosophy.
I guess I am different than most hunters if this is the case. All I am doing as far as hunting is concerned is letting the pup develop and have fun for the first year or so.

Charlie

I agree 100%. I feel this is the best way to end up with a bird driven, smart, bold, hunting dog in the long run.
Putting too much pressure on a young dog can cause problems that are very hard or impossible to fix.

Some dogs are ready earlier than others for formal training.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:03 pm

At least with pheasants I don't think any 10mo old could point a wild pheasant without making it pop - just no way unless there was a ton of snow or wind and it was a hen. Even then it'd probably pop pretty quickly 99% of the time.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:30 pm

bb560m wrote:I don't think any 10mo old could point a wild pheasant without making it pop

You would be wrong. Pointing a wild pheasant is not that big of a deal.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:33 pm

Ron R wrote:
bb560m wrote:I don't think any 10mo old could point a wild pheasant without making it pop
You would be wrong. Pointing a wild pheasant is not that big of a deal.

Pointing & not having the pheasant flush... My guy can point too way far in front, but late in season now the birds won't hold even if he points far away.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:45 pm

Pointing and holding a pheasant is not totally related to how far away the dog is. Closer is many times better as far as holding is concerned.

Ezzy

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:10 pm

bb560m wrote:
Ron R wrote:
bb560m wrote:I don't think any 10mo old could point a wild pheasant without making it pop
You would be wrong. Pointing a wild pheasant is not that big of a deal.
Pointing & not having the pheasant flush... My guy can point too way far in front, but late in season now the birds won't hold even if he points far away.

OK, pointing and holding a wild pheasant is not that big of a deal. Many, many 10 month old birddogs do it every year.

rkappes · Post by **rkappes** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:30 pm

Ron R wrote:I don't think any 10mo old could point a wild pheasant without making it pop

You would be wrong. Pointing a wild pheasant is not that big of a deal.[/quote]
Pointing & not having the pheasant flush... My guy can point too way far in front, but late in season now the birds won't hold even if he points far away.[/quote]
OK, pointing and holding a wild pheasant is not that big of a deal. Many, many 10 month old birddogs do it every year.[/quote]

And younger...

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:29 pm

My 7 month old setter pointed 2 roosters in WIHA last Saturday. I flushed and shot both of them.
But I consider it a big deal

Not the actual point, but it looked a lot like this.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:30 pm

A lot of continental breeds ground track birds which makes them more apt to point and hold pheasants with greater ease then a dog that is strictly hunting air scent or hunting the breeze as they say.

Personally if I had a dog that ground scented or that I thought was ground scenting he is gone that same day. End of story.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:44 pm

bigsugar wrote:A lot of continental breeds ground track birds which makes them more apt to point and hold pheasants with greater ease then a dog that is strictly hunting air scent or hunting the breeze as they say.

Personally if I had a dog that ground scented or that I thought was ground scenting he is gone that same day. End of story.

Don't have a clue where you have been in the past 30 years but you need to get caught up to date. Maybe start observing, ask some questions, and stop telling all of us how good you are. Man never learns a thing when his mouth is open instead of his ears.

Ezzy

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:45 pm

I've noticed dogs that trail ground scent seem to crowd and bump birds more often than dogs that air scent... IMO it more about the individual dogs. Handing wild pheasants is not easy for many dogs, but most will get at least some of them pointed. A good tracker will sure find a lot of wouned pheasants though.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:59 pm

SetterNut wrote:My 7 month old setter pointed 2 roosters in WIHA last Saturday. I flushed and shot both of them.
But I consider it a big deal

That's a HUGE big deal. Looks like Lizzy/Buck is a great combination, huh? Sure is a good looking pup, too. Congrats!!

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:24 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
bigsugar wrote:A lot of continental breeds ground track birds which makes them more apt to point and hold pheasants with greater ease then a dog that is strictly hunting air scent or hunting the breeze as they say.

Personally if I had a dog that ground scented or that I thought was ground scenting he is gone that same day. End of story.
Don't have a clue where you have been in the past 30 years but you need to get caught up to date. Maybe start observing, ask some questions, and stop telling all of us how good you are. Man never learns a thing when his mouth is open instead of his ears.

Ezzy

Ezzy I have nothing to gain from you sorry. It's not a slam on anyone just not the type of dog I'm after. I think you are the one who needs to get over yourself. If I have the type of dog I like then why is it not ok to say so. In my quote above if you got "I'm better then you" from that then you're insecure and that's a you problem.

Furthermore Ezzy I have hunted over dozens and dozens of different dogs in the past 15 years and my experience in those outings is that shorthairs, weims, vizlas, wirehairs and britts tend to ground scent more. My statement was a compliment to those dogs that are able to handle most types of birds that it seems to take a pointer a little longer to master. Have I seen pointers that ground scent sure. Not in the numbers the others tend to. Why do you think they call brittanys brush pigs Ezzy? Most brittany owners I know smile at that name and they are proud of it.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:28 pm

What he is getting at is that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:39 pm

bigsugar wrote:shorthairs, weims, vizlas, wirehairs and britts tend to ground scent more.

We're not worthy of pointers. We're not worthy!

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:46 pm

Nope! All other dogs are pieces of garbage. He/she has the best dogs in the country and has won more than any person alive.

At least he/she took a picture of the dog with an 11 oclock tail (after it was brushed up) also taking off the check cord just prior to snapping a photo (see the D ring still sticking out). Just to prove something to us with far less superior dogs.

Makes you wonder right?

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:57 pm

bigsugar wrote:A lot of continental breeds ground track birds which makes them more apt to point and hold pheasants with greater ease then a dog that is strictly hunting air scent or hunting the breeze as they say.

Personally if I had a dog that ground scented or that I thought was ground scenting he is gone that same day. End of story.

If you were honestly complimenting the continental breeds with the first sentence, you would have not added the second sentence.

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:14 pm

Andy,

Have no idea where you got the idea any of us care what you want in a dog. That is your right to decide that. And if you think you are fooling anyone on here into thinking you are knowledgeable about trialing and dogs you sure are caught up in being the president of your own fan club. The world does not revolve around your belly button. All of us can read what is written as well as what you put between the lines. I do feel sorry for you in your search for the perfect dog when you demonstrate a lack of knowledge what the perfect dog is. But please keep looking and maybe just let the rest of us do the same.

Would that work for you?

Ezzy

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:40 pm

bigsugar wrote: In my quote above if you got "I'm better then you" from that then you're insecure and that's a you problem.

You criticize other handlers and dogs, denigrate any trial outside of your area, demand your own section on this forum so that you don't have to mingle with the unwashed, claim your culls are better than the best the rest of us can put up, etc. etc. Hmmm, how could anyone get "I'm better than you" from all that?

I must be insecure, too....

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:21 pm

AzDoggin wrote:
SetterNut wrote:My 7 month old setter pointed 2 roosters in WIHA last Saturday. I flushed and shot both of them.
But I consider it a big deal
That's a HUGE big deal. Looks like Lizzy/Buck is a great combination, huh? Sure is a good looking pup, too. Congrats!!

Thanks I sure like him a lot. He got Buck's natural retrieve too

Had his first retrieve on a quail today.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:06 am

AzDoggin wrote:
SetterNut wrote:My 7 month old setter pointed 2 roosters in WIHA last Saturday. I flushed and shot both of them.
But I consider it a big deal
That's a HUGE big deal.

I didn't mean it like that

.

ultracarry wrote:took a picture of the dog with an 11 oclock tail

There is nothing wrong with an 11 oclock tail (see avatar

).

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:07 pm

ckirsch wrote:
bigsugar wrote: In my quote above if you got "I'm better then you" from that then you're insecure and that's a you problem.
You criticize other handlers and dogs, denigrate any trial outside of your area, demand your own section on this forum so that you don't have to mingle with the unwashed, claim your culls are better than the best the rest of us can put up, etc. etc. Hmmm, how could anyone get "I'm better than you" from all that?

I must be insecure, too....

"Ezzy and Charlie that's what makes the world great. A cull from me would probably be great for someone else." quote bigsugar

That was all I needed to read to make my opinion. Actually the handful of people I know , who could truthfully lay claim to that expression, would have too much class to say it.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:27 pm

Sharon,

When you look at the dog that is being evaluated by someone and is considered a cull there are a lot of factors involved.

Does that person believe they are more knowledgeable than all others?
Yes.
Does that person have a huge win record?
No
Does the person believe there is a magical dog out there?
Yes
Do they try to impress you so much that when they are called out they change an avatar pic?
Yes
Do they have multiple names or have they gone by previous names on this board?
Yes

Nuff said. Lack of training and experience as a handler evaluating a dog while looking for something magical is not being true to the dogs you ruin in the process to find that magical creature.

Petroplex Hunter · Post by **Petroplex Hunter** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:46 pm

For me, as for many dog owners, training, hunting and possibly trialing dogs is for fun -- Not everyone takes the revolving door approach to dog ownership.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:49 pm

Petroplex Hunter wrote:For me, as for many dog owners, training, hunting and possibly trialing dogs is for fun -- Not everyone takes the revolving door approach to dog ownership.

Thank you!!

Charlie

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:18 pm

I once asked a famous pro ( in my naivete) how come he always had a terrific dog for Championships. He said " because I have fertilized my cherry orchard over the years , with losers."

Maybe that is all right, but something about what he said, made me feel sorry for the man.

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:55 pm

People today don't use the same approach as back in the day. Dogs had a limited time to prove themselves. They made it or they didn't. No one gave away a problem dog. It was just the way it was done. No questions asked. If you didn't see the dog anymore you pretty much knew it didn't make the cut, but then again it wasn't culled because it didn't run big enough or didn't hold it's tail right. More times than not it didn't hunt or care about birds or it had anger issues. My grandfather had absolutely no room in the barn for a biter. A lot of head stones on my uncles property. Now adays every dog is saved.

Joe

rkappes · Post by **rkappes** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:30 am

[quote="SetterNut"]My 7 month old setter pointed 2 roosters in WIHA last Saturday. I flushed and shot both of them.
But I consider it a big deal

Both great lookin' dogs!

highntight · Post by **highntight** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:14 am

Some may like late bloomers. Personally, i don't.

This is "one" of the reasons i bred this bitch. She has a ton of hunt and point. She has been pointing and holding her birds since she was about 5 months old. She came here like that. Nothing i did. It was just in her. Here she is when she was about 8 months old with my son who was 5 yrs old at the time.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:48 am

highntight wrote:Some may like late bloomers. Personally, i don't.

Nobody likes late bloomers, it's more about how late will a person tolerate. Everybody wants a quick learning, born broke type dog.

Good looking dog though. How's she bred?

Petroplex Hunter · Post by **Petroplex Hunter** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:19 am

jcbuttry8 wrote:People today don't use the same approach as back in the day. Dogs had a limited time to prove themselves. They made it or they didn't. No one gave away a problem dog. It was just the way it was done. No questions asked. If you didn't see the dog anymore you pretty much knew it didn't make the cut, but then again it wasn't culled because it didn't run big enough or didn't hold it's tail right. More times than not it didn't hunt or care about birds or it had anger issues. My grandfather had absolutely no room in the barn for a biter. A lot of head stones on my uncles property. Now adays every dog is saved.

Joe

I can tolerate late bloomers, but will not tolerate an aggressive dog or biters. I've got small children - If any of my dogs ever showed any aggression towards my baby girl, they'd be gone before sundown. Fortunately, I've never had this problem.

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:25 am

Ladies & Gentlemen,
Different dog breeds mature at different rates, sure they can differ from line to line also.
Most Gordon dogs are slow maturing but live long lives, Small Munsterlanders are similar. Not all people want a fast maturing dog, some hunters want a dog who matures slowly and lives a very long time, lots of Grouse hunters are into dual type dogs for this very reason. Saying nobody likes late bloomers is far from a true statement. It maybe true in the FT world but certainly not in the companion Grouse dog world, many late bloomers make exceptional Grouse dogs and Grouse hunters know it. Ryman Setters are very slow maturing dogs, and no finer more beautiful Grouse dog was ever bred.
RGD/Dave

markj · Post by **markj** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:37 am

Most hunters that I encounter think they should have finished dog performance from a 6 month puppy.

Thats like giving a gun to a kid of like 4 or 5 and expecting him to produce as much as a grown man. I let them grow up and enjoy their youth a bit. I never have hunted with anyone thought a 6 month old dog was finished.

This is a wierd thread to say the least. Now I have had dogs out in the field at 6 to 10 months of age and yes they held point, retrieved to my hand and found wounded but completly finished? wouldnt call it that....

ST8 UPPOINTERS · Post by **ST8 UPPOINTERS** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:54 am

Ryman is that a pic of a late bloomer or just another one of your pics.. sorry just another ft Bs comment . :roll:

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:00 am

Can you please explain how a dog that matures slower lives longer than one that matures fast?

highntight · Post by **highntight** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:02 am

Ron R wrote,

Good looking dog though. How's she bred?

I would call her Miller/Sir Lancelot bred. She got a little Damascus/Wahoo Trouble Doc in there as well.

I have had several, and i mean several people tell me alot of Elhew dogs mature slower. i've had quite a few tell me dogs out of Elhew Fibber Mcgee typically are slow to develop. Several people seem to like them. Give them a couple of years to develop they say. I guess i'm just impatient? In my mind, natural ability you should see early on. That's just the way i feel. I know they say Setters take longer to mature and break out. Maybe, that's one of the reasons they aren't for me.

I doubt there are many dogs out there finished at 6 months old. i don't want a dog at 18 months to 2 years old still ripping birds. That's just my preference. Some say these make your best dogs in the end. They just aren't for me. To each his own.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:06 pm

ultracarry wrote:Can you please explain how a dog that matures slower lives longer than one that matures fast?

LOL Interesting thought. What would the world be like if the "slower to mature " part of the population lived the longest.? I'll have to think on that.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:24 pm

ultracarry wrote:Can you please explain how a dog that matures slower lives longer than one that matures fast?

We joke about this in Gordon Setters all the time. "Oh, he's the typical male Gordon. They mature late, like 5 years old or so."

Well give me the dog that matures as a quality field companion at 2, and lives until 13. Because the dog that takes until 5 to "mature" doesn't live to 16, and make as serviceable hunting companion as the 13 year old.

mudhunter · Post by **mudhunter** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:05 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Ladies & Gentlemen,
Man is this a typical FT, BS type thread. Different dog breeds mature at different rates, sure they can differ from line to line also.
Most Gordon dogs are slow maturing but live long lives, Small Munsterlanders are similar. Not all people want a fast maturing dog, some hunters want a dog who matures slowly and lives a very long time, lots of Grouse hunters are into dual type dogs for this very reason. Saying nobody likes late bloomers is far from a true statement. It maybe true in the FT world but certainly not in the companion Grouse dog world, many late bloomers make exceptional Grouse dogs and Grouse hunters know it. Ryman Setters are very slow maturing dogs, and no finer more beautiful Grouse dog was ever bred.
RGD/Dave

You really say some stuff that makes no sense. Give a hunter the option of a dog that they can hunt over the first season and one they have to wait till its a few years old and matures and see what one they pick every-time! A slow maturing dog may be just as good in the end but as far as breeding stock a dog that matures in a timely way should be a consideration for all breeders IMHO.