Late Bloomers

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:45 pm

What's everyone's thought's on those pups that don't mature mentally as fast as their littermates. The one's that make you say stuff like "he just seems to still have alot of pup in him". Do you wait for them to mature or do you cull? Either way, why?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:51 pm

I can handle some of the slow to mature as long as they are showing promise on birds and in the field....
but I will come to a point where I will let the real slow on the turnpike ones go on a different side road

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:17 pm

Cull em Ron. You're not gonna breed a dog like that probably anyway. Why put the effort into him when there are so many others out there.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:43 pm

bigsugar wrote:Cull em Ron. You're not gonna breed a dog like that probably anyway. Why put the effort into him when there are so many others out there.

Because they sometimes make the best dogs.

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:12 pm

birddogger wrote:
bigsugar wrote:Cull em Ron. You're not gonna breed a dog like that probably anyway. Why put the effort into him when there are so many others out there.
Because they sometimes make the best dogs.

Charlie

So very true. I suppose there is alimit to how slow but normally it has little if anything to do with how good they will end up.

Ezzy

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:33 pm

bigsugar wrote:Cull em Ron. You're not gonna breed a dog like that probably anyway. Why put the effort into him when there are so many others out there.

It's not that extreme, just a little behind. He's a big good looking dog. We'll see what happens in the next few months. He's 15 months old now and just holding birds till flush and half way whoa broke. I'm going to stop working him on birds and force break him. During this time I will just run him in empty fields until it's time to shoot birds for him.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:53 pm

In your opinion Ron is what you're asking him to do and what he is lacking typical in a pup this age? If the answer is no then he's a cull.

Ezzy and Charlie that's what makes the world great. A cull from me would probably be great for someone else.

ST8 UPPOINTERS · Post by **ST8 UPPOINTERS** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:26 pm

Absolutely NOT a cull. My best dog I've ever hunted behind was a late bloomer! Andy I really doubt your standard of dogs are are miles above everyone else's. Probably just lack patience

sckwest1 · Post by **sckwest1** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:40 pm

My personal experience with slow starters has been very bad with a very low percentage being worth waiting on. With that being said my best and favorite dog is just like the dog Ron described, he just had a lot of pup in him and took longer to mature. It is simply a choice of each individual if they want to wait. I would have not waited on the dog that turned out if it were not for his pedigree. He was from a frozen semen breeding of a deceased dog so I couldn't replace him. I am very glad I waited. Goodluck with him Ron and remember "but Dad it's Smokey". SCKWEST

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:52 pm

Ron I would just have some patience with him also, 15 months is still very YOUNG.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:04 pm

ST8 I wouldn't bet money on it partner. I'm looking for one kind of dog and I will find him eventually. If I don't have dog here on my place that suits me fine. I'm not after what 99% are after. I definitely don't think I'm better then anyone but I will not settle for a dog like most folks here do. I will not feed a dog I don't like. I haven't liked very many either. Ask Ron. He bought a dog from me that wore out her welcome here. I would venture to say (I'm not 100% sure) that Ron would run that gyp he got from me against most on this board and feel pretty good about his chances.

When I find what I'm after (and I will) you'll read about him. I won't have to tell you I found him. You'll already know.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:20 pm

Just curious Andy how many litters a year to you breed?

rockyridge kennels · Post by **rockyridge kennels** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:35 pm

bigsugar wrote:ST8 I wouldn't bet money on it partner. I'm looking for one kind of dog and I will find him eventually. If I don't have dog here on my place that suits me fine. I'm not after what 99% are after.

When I find what I'm after (and I will) you'll read about him. I won't have to tell you I found him. You'll already know.

In a nutshell what kind of dog would that be? Just wonderin not trying to be negative or start any drama....

codym · Post by **codym** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:43 pm

Sell him Ron!!!! lol Thats what you told me to do, and mine was only 8 months old at the time!

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:53 pm

The kind of dog I'm looking for may not even exist. Although I have seen a couple of examples.

I'll tell you this. I'm looking for a big, strong, forward going, powerful animal that looks great on the ground and looks great pointed. I want him to be build like a brick sh!thouse but have that effortless flowing gait that takes him across the country like he's on a magic carpet. I need him to hunt just enough to find birds in a trial format and make it believeable. I need him to run to the horizon with me and my horse in mind. I need him to have just enough go with you to keep from getting lost but not enough that he feels the need to stay with me. I need him to be an honest but intense birddog. I need him to be tough minded but trainable. I need him to stand his birds like a champ but not be robotic.

That's about it in a nutshell.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:54 pm

Elkhunter wrote:Just curious Andy how many litters a year to you breed?

I used to breed a bunch. Now only two a year out of my two females that I really like. One litter for each of them.

rockyridge kennels · Post by **rockyridge kennels** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:02 pm

Fair enough.
But do you really think your gonna get all that in a 15 mo old pup? Again not trying to start anything.

Because I have the same standards (believe me!!), but I look toward the finished product as a work in progress.

Now it's given I need to see some good chit in a youngun.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:07 pm

I think the slow developing thing bothers me because I looking for a nice male dog with all those qualities to win all age championships and then to produce all age contenders. If he is slow developing himself what kind of pup will he produce? That's my hesistation with slow developers. I can't wait out a dog really either. I admit that. You should be able to see a bunch of good qualities in a 15 month old. The total package no. But potential to be what I'm after definitely.

sckwest1 · Post by **sckwest1** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:23 pm

I think the difference is what you just described Andy is the ideal All Age dog which is exactly what you are after. Most people on this forum are not after that. In your description you said that hunts just enough to find birds. I know you want and are going to put forth every effort to have that ideal AA dog, but you and me have talked about not liking the fact that trials are not designed to find the best bird dog, they are designed to find the best trial dog. Good luck in your quest, SCK

rockyridge kennels · Post by **rockyridge kennels** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:28 pm

bigsugar wrote:I think the slow developing thing bothers me because I looking for a nice male dog with all those qualities to win all age championships and then to produce all age contenders. If he is slow developing himself what kind of pup will he produce? That's my hesistation with slow developers. I can't wait out a dog really either. I admit that. You should be able to see a bunch of good qualities in a 15 month old. The total package no. But potential to be what I'm after definitely.

Fair enough.
If you had a female with those qualities would you cull it?
If so call me

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:44 pm

Scott it's sad but true. If you want a good all age trial dog then he can't be the hardest hunting dog out there. It was a sad day for me when I realized the two are no longer interchangeable. But if you want to play the game then you have to play by the rules set forth and within the guidelines of what will win.

Rocky funny you mentioned that. PM me and I will tell you about a couple breedings I have coming up. I will sell all the female pups at 7 weeks. I have my two females. PM me seriously.

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:59 pm

Cull and move it down the road... I personally don't have the patience or time to tiptoe along with a pup/dog like that. It doesn't mean that in 2-3 years that dog won't be a good dog, because it might. For me, Its just going to have to be on someone elses dime and time.

What may not work out for you may very well be just what someone else is looking for.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:05 pm

bigsugar wrote:Scott it's sad but true. If you want a good all age trial dog then he can't be the hardest hunting dog out there. It was a sad day for me when I realized the two are no longer interchangeable. But if you want to play the game then you have to play by the rules set forth and within the guidelines of what will win.

Rocky funny you mentioned that. PM me and I will tell you about a couple breedings I have coming up. I will sell all the female pups at 7 weeks. I have my two females. PM me seriously.

Andy there are plenty of guys out west that hunt the crap out of their AA dogs, just look at the pictures of Richie Robertson Facebook page and there are a few piles of birds. Rich Heaton hunts Lucky Strike like a mad man, and I am sure they are not the only ones out there that hunt the crap out of their AA dogs. My dog Woody will make some great moves in a trial, but will float in that 300 yard range all day long off foot. I think they know the difference between a trial and when its time to get to business. I know a lot of them hunt them more than they trial them. Doug hunts his dogs more than anyone I know and he does very well in trials.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:38 pm

Josh I agree with hunting them. My point is that if you and I are braced together and my dog goes to hunting too much and finds 6 birds in the hour and your dog wears out the front end with two good limb finds I'm beat hands down. That's just how it is. I don't even hunt singles with my trial dogs because I don't want them to possibly pig around in a trial like some dogs do that are used to chasing singles.

I would like for all age trials to decide the best birddog but those days are behind us. I think you know that also.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:44 pm

If this dog is for breeding/competing - cull. If you are willing to wait and see for a good hunting dog, hang on to him.
There is no point to reproducing slow maturing dogs when dogs with all the qualities anyone could ever want in a dog that come on much faster exist.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:03 pm

If all dogs were early starters and broke early, people wouldn't be red shirting dogs...

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:05 pm

They redshirt dogs because derby championship wins can qualify you for the national.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:33 pm

ACooper wrote:If all dogs were early starters and broke early, people wouldn't be red shirting dogs...

If no dogs were early starters and broke early we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:19 am

sckwest1 wrote:breeding of a deceased dog so I couldn't replace him.

So is this one.

bigsugar wrote:Ask Ron. He bought a dog from me that wore out her welcome here. I would venture to say (I'm not 100% sure) that Ron would run that gyp he got from me against most on this board and feel pretty good about his chances.

You're right, she is a very nice dog but she moved to Texas 2 weeks ago.

It's too late to cull him because he has already been sat on and has been coming on great. He is a big, powerfull, hard hunting dog with a cannon for a nose and breath taking style pointed. He does still seem like a big puppy at times. His two littermates that we held back plus one from a different litter were just doing it right at a very young age. They are all three finished fully broke dogs but this one was my pick of that litter.

slistoe wrote:If this dog is for breeding/competing - cull. If you are willing to wait and see for a good hunting dog, hang on to him.

I have very high standards to what I keep and he is not there but has earned the chance to be finished out.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:17 am

You probably ought to call me today.Ron.

Petroplex Hunter · Post by **Petroplex Hunter** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:10 am

BigSugar, when you find your perfect dog, hit me up and I'll let you ride my unicorn when you trial him

ST8 UPPOINTERS · Post by **ST8 UPPOINTERS** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:43 am

Sounds like she wore out her welcome at rons too

ST8 UPPOINTERS · Post by **ST8 UPPOINTERS** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:56 am

Andy if your females arnt producing the kind of dogs you are looking for why keep breeding to them?

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:14 am

BigSugar, when you find your perfect dog, hit me up and I'll let you ride my unicorn when you trial him

That's awesome!! Be cool if they had a find at the end of a rainbow...and flushed a covey of butterflies!!

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:29 am

ST8 UPPOINTERS wrote:Sounds like she wore out her welcome at rons too

She is a real nice dog and for some reason he likes to call her a cull because she's not an all age dog. She is doing a great job guiding hunts in Texas and I'll be there hunting quail behind her next season. Can't Wait

.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:58 am

ST8 UPPOINTERS wrote:Andy if your females arnt producing the kind of dogs you are looking for why keep breeding to them?

I have only bred the two I have here one time. I recently got another gyp to see what kind of puppies she will produce. I only have two females here. Both are pretty nice. I agree though.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:59 am

So because I'm looking for that once in a lifetime dog and hes hard to find then I should just settle for the kind of dogs you guys run? No thanks.

ST8 UPPOINTERS · Post by **ST8 UPPOINTERS** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:10 pm

My dog just read your post Andy. Hes pissed!

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:16 pm

bigsugar wrote:So because I'm looking for that once in a lifetime dog and hes hard to find then I should just settle for the kind of dogs you guys run? No thanks.

ST8 UPPOINTERS wrote:My dog just read your post Andy. Hes pissed!

You guys are phucking hilarious

.

rkappes · Post by **rkappes** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:16 pm

DGFavor wrote:
BigSugar, when you find your perfect dog, hit me up and I'll let you ride my unicorn when you trial him
That's awesome!! Be cool if they had a find at the end of a rainbow...and flushed a covey of butterflies!!

or skittles....

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:29 pm

or skittles....

killin' me here!!

ckirsch · Post by **ckirsch** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:34 pm

bigsugar wrote:So because I'm looking for that once in a lifetime dog and hes hard to find then I should just settle for the kind of dogs you guys run? No thanks.

:roll:

Petroplex Hunter · Post by **Petroplex Hunter** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:12 pm

bigsugar wrote:So because I'm looking for that once in a lifetime dog and hes hard to find then I should just settle for the kind of dogs you guys run? No thanks.

Just giving you a hard time ...In reality I would probably pay a pretty penny for the dogs that don't make the cut at your place. My EP didn't make the cut as a trial prospect, but is just right for what I need.

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:05 pm

bigsugar wrote:The kind of dog I'm looking for may not even exist. Although I have seen a couple of examples.

I'll tell you this. I'm looking for a big, strong, forward going, powerful animal that looks great on the ground and looks great pointed. I want him to be build like a brick sh!thouse but have that effortless flowing gait that takes him across the country like he's on a magic carpet. I need him to hunt just enough to find birds in a trial format and make it believeable. I need him to run to the horizon with me and my horse in mind. I need him to have just enough go with you to keep from getting lost but not enough that he feels the need to stay with me. I need him to be an honest but intense birddog. I need him to be tough minded but trainable. I need him to stand his birds like a champ but not be robotic.

That's about it in a nutshell.

I have to go with Andy. Not because I have been doing the trial thing for years and know what to look for in a champion but because I just don't have the patience for slow or soft. I have had bird dogs all my life and never kept a late bloomer or soft dog. Just me. I don't blame the dog, I just ain't built for em. I won't help that dog just make it worse.

My pup now handles it all like a champ. I really hope she turns out to be just as good as I think she will. Everything so far comes real easy to her. She is steady to the shot now and only takes a few steps. She will hopefully break quick and easy. Tommy said her momma was the same way. She broke herself on wild quail. I don't think I could ask more of a 10 mos old. Not meaning to rub anything in but at 15 mos i would expect to see quit a bit about the dog.

Good luck Ron. Hope it works out for ya. I think it comes down to how much time you want to put in. There are plenty of great dogs out there. Find the one that fits you and what you are looking for. Not everyone is cut out for slow dogs.

Joe

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:42 pm

At what age is a pup considered a slower pup ? If a pup is still bumping & chasing at say 10 mths is that slow?

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:49 pm

No , but it might be the handler's fault. How much time has that handler spent working with that dog?

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:02 pm

Sharon wrote:No , but it might be the handler's fault. How much time has that handler spent working with that dog?

Just for grins lets say pup has had plenty of work.

ST8 UPPOINTERS · Post by **ST8 UPPOINTERS** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:13 pm

Still bumping at 10 months? Ya that would be slow..

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:31 pm

I recently saw a setter that is 14 mos old. It does not stop for the bird, in most cases it doesn't even care that their is a bird. When the bird was popped from the release the dog goes the other way with no interest. Now, this is an extreme, but definitely slow bloomer. So, yes a pup should be able to stop on a bird, even at 10 mos.

Joe

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:35 pm

My dogs have all bumped wild birds at 10 months of age, I would be pretty impressed to see a 10 month old pup consistently pointing wild birds in my neck of the woods. I just don't see how a handler would be able to spend enough time with a 10 month old dog to say it was "slow" dog.