Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

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goldenpatch29
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Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by goldenpatch29 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:48 pm

I would like everyone's opinion on this topic.

I have heard all my life that you can have a exceptional hunting dog for wild birds, and you can have a exceptional hunting dog for pin birds, or tamed birds, "whatever you want to call them", BUT it is extremely rare to have a dog that is BOTH!
I have heard this statement from locals, old timers, and even some trainers.

My question to everyone, "Is there any truth to this statement?".....and Im not asking if it is possible to have both.
I am asking if it is a rare occurence for this to happen?

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by Winchey » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:06 pm


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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:07 pm

It is possible but not with an exceptional dog or even a good one if they have any experience with the birds.'
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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by cjuve » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:12 pm

Exposure is more of the equation than anything else just like with anything you have to practice if you want to be good. Are there things that one is better for than the other absolutley.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by bigsugar » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:38 pm

You can have both. The advantage with pen raised birds is that you have a short nosed dog and still be competitive.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by myerstenn » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:53 pm

bigsugar wrote:You can have both. The advantage with pen raised birds is that you have a short nosed dog and still be competitive.
If a "short nosed" dog knows where to go hunting it dosent make much difference, on the other hand I dont want to relocate my long nosed dog 5 times to find birds in a twenty yard strech on either wild or pen raised birds. Birds are birds its all in what the dog is prepared for. The long and short of it is, I might rather have one in between!

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by slistoe » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:13 pm

If you are talking about having a competitive bird in broke stake field trials then it is more difficult to run on Pen Raised birds. If you are talking about a dog that will simply get you shooting opportunities at birds then wild birds are more difficult. If a dog has lots of experience with one and no experience with the other then they will look great on one and struggle on the other. A good dog that is given plenty of experience with both will look as good working on one as the other.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by goldenpatch29 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:42 pm

Winchey wrote:http://fosteraward.com/Essays%20from%20 ... /Quail_Dog__

This may be of interest to you.
Winchey,
Thank you for sharing this link with me......That was a very interesting and informative Essay. I really enjoyed it and it was very helpful!

So...basically it is hard to find dogs that can be good at both, but there are a few that can be.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I gather from that essay and most everyone else who has left a comment, is that... Most of the dogs are a product of there environment and cater to what they are trained to hunt, and it would be possible to have more dogs that could be good at both if they had more exposure to each scenario, (wild birds and Pen birds). Does that sound about right?

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by bigsugar » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:04 pm

myerstenn wrote: If a "short nosed" dog knows where to go hunting it dosent make much difference, on the other hand I dont want to relocate my long nosed dog 5 times to find birds in a twenty yard strech on either wild or pen raised birds. Birds are birds its all in what the dog is prepared for. The long and short of it is, I might rather have one in between!
Whatever you think bud. Pen raised birds will allow a short nosed dog to crowd them and wild birds will not do that. If you don't know that then that's a you problem. If you have to relocate your dog five times because you don't know how to read your dog and flush his birds for him that again is a you problem.

Take a short nosed dog to SD in the summer and run him on chickens and see how many he gets pointed up there myers. Not many I will tell you that. I saw it first hand last summer. Took quite a few dogs north. The longer nose dogs went to pointing chickens right and left. The shorter nosed dogs had numerous stop to flushes. It makes no difference if he knows where to go and find them or not if he can't smell them until he's top of them it won't matter anyway.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by bigsugar » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:06 pm

Goldenpatch this is what you should gather.

A dog being good on pen raised birds is training. A dog being good on wild birds is God given. That's the difference. Dogs that are good on both are real common in my part of the country.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by ST8 UPPOINTERS » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:20 pm

Bigsurgar. What's your definition of a long nosed dog, compared to a dog with a shorter nose?

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by bigsugar » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:49 pm

You've seen em before I'm sure. The dog that is always right on top of birds before he points them. The dog that seem to always be backing instead of pointing. The dog that always seems to put up birds when the other dogs on the ground seem to be able to handle them ok. The dog that needs scenting conditions to be just right or he goes birdless. The dog that runs through the same course as all of the other dogs at the trial and they have birds and he doesn't .

You know. That kind of dog.


On ther other hand the long nose dog never has a bobble on birds because he can handle them from farther away. The long nosed dog that makes game on birds and then roads up on them using his nose to tell him just how close he can get before he just throws a blanket over them and pins them flat. The dog that is always on birds when your buddy's dogs never are. The dog that running down the edge stride for stride with your buddys dog only your dog is on the outside and your buddys dog is on the inside. They pass a piece of cover and your dog turns and makes game and pins a covey and you buddy's dog keeps running. I it when that happens.

You know what I'm talking about. He just has that savvy to find birds and the nose to back him up when he gets there.
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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by DGFavor » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:50 pm

Long nosed dog:
Image

Short nosed dog:
Image

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by Johng918 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:53 pm

bigsugar wrote:Goldenpatch this is what you should gather.

A dog being good on pen raised birds is training. A dog being good on wild birds is God given. That's the difference. Dogs that are good on both are real common in my part of the country.
+1
I agree, From my experience Most good wild bird dogs will have little trouble with pen raised birds.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by Brittguy » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:13 pm

I have been satisfied with my dogs on both wild and released birds. Maybe it has a lot to do with how one uses the released birds and how tame they are.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by cjuve » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:24 pm

myerstenn wrote:
bigsugar wrote:You can have both. The advantage with pen raised birds is that you have a short nosed dog and still be competitive.
If a "short nosed" dog knows where to go hunting it dosent make much difference, on the other hand I dont want to relocate my long nosed dog 5 times to find birds in a twenty yard strech on either wild or pen raised birds. Birds are birds its all in what the dog is prepared for. The long and short of it is, I might rather have one in between!
How far away a dog is from the birds when he estasblishes point IME has less to do with how good of nose he has and more to do with his bird experiences.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by bigsugar » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:28 pm

Caleb I disagree. A short nosed dog can't stand off his birds because he can't smell them out there. Come to Kansas this month and hunt some late season pheasants with a short nosed dog and watch those birds take off out of gun range.

A short nosed dog will never really gain the experience he needs to handle his birds right because he will be too busy crowding them and putting them up.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by goldenpatch29 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:30 pm

I totally agree with all of you on dogs that have a excceptional nose. In all rights they should be able to handle pen raised or planted birds with ease and no problems. I am not bias to either perception, it was just something that I have heard frequently.

The next question I have, has to do with the short nose and long nose topic mentioned earlier in this thread.

Have "short nose" dogs been inline bred into field trial dogs because they seem to, "by perception and opinion only" , do better in the field trail circuit. Or on the flip side, Have the "long nose" dogs been inline bred to hunt wild birds because they seem to, "again by perception" , do better on wild birds, but the inline breeding has prolly not had as much success because they dont recieve as much publicity as do the field trail champions, or have they had just as much success?

Again, I am not taking bias to anything. I am simply looking for answers and other's opinions.

P.S. DGFavors that is freakin hilarious!! :D :D

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by cjuve » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:37 pm

bigsugar wrote:Caleb I disagree. A short nosed dog can't stand off his birds because he can't smell them out there. Come to Kansas this month and hunt some late season pheasants with a short nosed dog and watch those birds take off out of gun range.

A short nosed dog will never really gain the experience he needs to handle his birds right because he will be too busy crowding them and putting them up.
I agree with you to an extent Andy the dog with the nose is going to find more birds and point more birtds all else being equal. I am trying to say it is what the dog does after he makes scent has less to do with the nose and more to do with brains and exposure. At least that has been my experience.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by bigsugar » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:41 pm

IMO field trials have gotten further and further away from the original idea of finding the best birddogs. In all honesty to win an all age stake you have to have a dog that runs a ton and stays forward with enough handle to finish with him. He has to hunt just enough to make it believable that he is really looking for birds. He doesn't have to be the best birddog out there. A nice all age dog will have a good ground race and one clean find and a strong forward finish. With the absence of wild bird trials you can take a short nosed dog and really win a lot of trials with him. You may not win a national championship with him but you'll win enough with him to convince people who don't know any better that he is a good dog.

Same can't be said for shooting dogs. That's an entire different game again IMO.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by bigsugar » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:43 pm

Caleb I agree 100%.

We both know that for some dogs by the time his nose has told him there are birds in the area it's too late. That was the point I was going towards. There are a lot of those type of dogs in the world and sadly enough alot of them are trialed and rather successfully I might add.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by DGFavor » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:57 pm

In all honesty to win an all age stake
And you know this because...[crickets...crickets...] :wink: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by tn red » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:01 pm

Good dogs get it done no matter the birds the rest are just excuses for not getting it done. If your running a dog with not enough nose your not going to beat good dogs week in & week out.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by bigsugar » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:11 pm

Doug I have never won an all age stake if that's what you're getting at.

I have the priviledge of working dogs with folks who are far and above more accomplished in dogs then you'll EVER be and that's their take. I tend to agree with them. I know you're the king out west but there's a reason you stay out west to run your dogs. You and I both know what it is. The BEST dogs in the country aren't from nor are the running in your neck of the woods. Sorry to be captain obvious. Again.

You do take a mean picture though. We all have to be good at something I guess.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by SetterNut » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:19 pm

I only hunt wild birds. I use a few pen raised to train with.

I don't understand why you wouldn't expect a great dog on wild birds to be a great dog on pen raised. What is it was would give the wild bird dog a problem on pen raised birds?
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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by DGFavor » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:40 pm

I have the priviledge of working dogs with folks who are far and above more accomplished in dogs then you'll EVER be and that's their take.
Can't argue that but I'm sure comparing your mentors to me isn't setting a very high bar!! :lol: :lol: And they are...

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by myerstenn » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:43 pm

bigsugar wrote:Doug I have never won an all age stake if that's what you're getting at.

I have the priviledge of working dogs with folks who are far and above more accomplished in dogs then you'll EVER be and that's their take. I tend to agree with them. I know you're the king out west but there's a reason you stay out west to run your dogs. You and I both know what it is. The BEST dogs in the country aren't from nor are the running in your neck of the woods. Sorry to be captain obvious. Again.

You do take a mean picture though. We all have to be good at something I guess.
That explains alot Doug!!!!!!

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by birddogger » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:02 pm

slistoe wrote:If you are talking about having a competitive bird in broke stake field trials then it is more difficult to run on Pen Raised birds. If you are talking about a dog that will simply get you shooting opportunities at birds then wild birds are more difficult. If a dog has lots of experience with one and no experience with the other then they will look great on one and struggle on the other. A good dog that is given plenty of experience with both will look as good working on one as the other.
+1. I have tried to make this point a few times in the past but think I was being misunderstood. I also believe that a well bred dog with good instincts worked on nothing but pen raised birds and is then hunted on wild birds will figure it out pretty quickly. Pen raise birds can sometimes require a good dog to be more disciplened and patient, for instance a lot of times a bird will be walking around in front of the dog or even between his legs and he is expected to remain steady. But as was said, it is all about exposure and experience. With that said, there is no reason you can't have a good or exceptonal dog on both. Just speaking from my own personal experience.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by trueblu » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:05 pm

I think it is extremely unusual for a dog to be excellent in the field trial world, stupid birds walking all around him, under him, fly two feet and fall like they've crashed, etc. then to turn around and know how to properly handle wild birds, birds that have figured out to run to cover, to circle back around on foot, to be so jumpy that if the dog breaths at a distance of 100 yards they flush like shot out of a cannon, or to hold so tight you truly believe there's no possible way birds are in some small mesquite bush. However, I own one!!! One!! I've owned a bunch of good trial dogs, quite a few wild bird dogs, but only ONE that was dead broke in a MH hunting test, dead broke and a screamer in a trial, then oustanding on wild west Texas quail. But, I have owned one. So, not impossible, but to be at that level, there ain't many.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:18 pm

bigsugar wrote:Doug I have never won an all age stake if that's what you're getting at.

I have the priviledge of working dogs with folks who are far and above more accomplished in dogs then you'll EVER be and that's their take. I tend to agree with them. I know you're the king out west but there's a reason you stay out west to run your dogs. You and I both know what it is. The BEST dogs in the country aren't from nor are the running in your neck of the woods. Sorry to be captain obvious. Again.

You do take a mean picture though. We all have to be good at something I guess.

Pure class!!

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by bluestemkennels » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:44 pm

A dog being good on pen raised birds is training. A dog being good on wild birds is God given.

No truer words were ever posted on a forum. Thank Big sugar. I'm fortunate to have access to both. If you can, actively take advantage of wild birds. They will give your dog a good, balanced disposition on birds.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by Vision » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:00 pm

bigsugar wrote:Doug I have never won an all age stake if that's what you're getting at.

I have the priviledge of working dogs with folks who are far and above more accomplished in dogs then you'll EVER be and that's their take. I tend to agree with them. I know you're the king out west but there's a reason you stay out west to run your dogs. You and I both know what it is. The BEST dogs in the country aren't from nor are the running in your neck of the woods. Sorry to be captain obvious. Again.

You do take a mean picture though. We all have to be good at something I guess.

Sugar man It's obvious you have read "How to Win Friends and Influence People"
Last edited by Vision on Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:20 pm

goldenpatch29 wrote:I would like everyone's opinion on this topic.

I have heard all my life that you can have a exceptional hunting dog for wild birds, and you can have a exceptional hunting dog for pin birds, or tamed birds, "whatever you want to call them", BUT it is extremely rare to have a dog that is BOTH!
I have heard this statement from locals, old timers, and even some trainers.

My question to everyone, "Is there any truth to this statement?".....and Im not asking if it is possible to have both.
I am asking if it is a rare occurence for this to happen?
I am of the opinion that the well bred bird dog puppy is, to a very great extent, unmolded clay. What that puppy ultimately turns out to be good at, is far more a product of its socialization, introduction to game, experience and training.

If a dog is raised in the vicinity of wild birds, has opportunities as a puppy to bump and chase wild birds and when growing to mautity has the opportunity to search out, track, trail and otherwise figure out how those wild birds act and react...it is, I think, reasonable to believe that dog will be something of an expert on those wild birds.

I have seen wild bird dogs that did a fine job on penraised birds. I have seen widl bird dogs that sucked on penraised birds. I have seen dogs that never saw a wild bird in their lives make the adjustments in as little as a day or two, and do a creditable job on them. I have seen dogs that never saw a wild bird in their lives that couldn't get a wild bird nailed down if their life depended on it no matter how much time and how many contacts.

As far as the short nosed versus long nosed thing, there may be freaks of nature, but I believe most of the dogs of the same breed and same breeding have similar olfactory capabilities. How they learn to use them can make all the difference, I think.

I had a dog that a slightly poorer nose than his kennel mate as far as olfactory capability. this was proved, time and again in the training yard, However, in the field, the dog with the slightly poorer nose generally came up with more birds because he worked incredibly hard. Where the one dog would make a single pass and cruise on, the other dog would weave in and out, covering the same ground far more thoroughly. Where the one dog would run to the outside of the cover, the other would dive in and charge through it. He compensated. I know he did. The one dog sort of flowed and cruised through the fields. When the other dog was cut loose, it more of an assault, kinda like the Marines coming ashore.

Some can make the adjustments and do what they have to. Most can compensate and adjust to some degree.

I would agree that to have a dog that is truly superior in both areas is probably quite rare. With the current scarcity of wild birds in my locale, I probably will never have the opportunity to see or have one myself.

RayG

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by birddogger » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:43 pm

I would agree that to have a dog that is truly superior in both areas is probably quite rare. With the current scarcity of wild birds in my locale, I probably will never have the opportunity to see or have one myself.
Ray, I think it may be rare now days due to the shortage of wild birds in so many areas of the country. But given the opportunity on both, I don't think it is rare at all. I wouldn't have the opportunity to see for myself with, as you say, the scarcity of wild birds in my locale either. However, I am basing my comments on years past when there were plenty of birds and have had the opportunity to see and have myself. It wasn't rare at all. I agree with the poster though, who said a dog being good on pen raised birds is training and great on wild birds is from God given talents, instincts or whatever you want to call it.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by DGFavor » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:54 pm

It's obvious you have read "How to Win Friends and Influence People"
:lol: :lol: Awww, now, I started it being a wiseazz giving Andy some grief! Sorry man, I need better self control before I get to run-off on the keyboard!!

I wish I had some great answer to the OP's question instead of just being a goof but this is just another one of those bird dog questions I dread on the WWW where there isn't a single answer that is going to satisfy everybody. IMO (my opinion based on my own experiences, not an opinioin someone told me :wink: ), there are many dogs that can do exemplary jobs on both pen raised and wild birds. This fall my Bugs dog took RU at Reg. 9 Am SD with nice finds on sharptails then traveled half way cross country to take RU at the GSP AA Nats on pen birds with 5 or 6 finds...came home from that and I've shot chukars and huns over him since. Out in our parts at some trial venues it's not uncommon to have to work both pen birds and native game on the same run of a trial. Trixie last spring won the Reg 9 ASD shorthair Ch with a find where I flushed a pair of huns and as I walked back to her a pen chuk flushed also (I claimed the huns!! :lol: ). She also pointed a single pen chuk that I chased around a bit to flush then had an awesome (IMO!), high on the hill find on a native pair of chuks in the same brace. One week a few years ago, 'ol Stitchy took a RU at the Reg. 8 NGSPA ASD with multiple finds on pen birds as well as a shot bird/retrieve, jumped him in the truck raced back west where I hear it's easier to win and put him in the NW Chukar OSD Ch - the next day had him point 3 hen phez just off the breakaway, a covey of huns, a pair of native chuks, then a single pen chuk standing in a two track...handled 'em all and I was already picturing us hoisting the trophy...then took himself out self relocating on me on find #5 while I was flushing at 56" - DOH!!! That was at Robertson ranch...where they train dogs that Richie hauls all over the country to compete...he just had one in the callbacks at the Florida AA (I'm not sure if that's where the best dogs are but I heard there were some good ones) but I imagine it was just courtesy to him for traveling that far with his sorry hounds. :lol: :lol: I don't necessarily attribute my above experiences to having outstanding dog flesh as much as I consider it good bird dog flesh that has been exposed to lotsa birds at lotsa places with lots of training.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by phoneman45 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:05 pm

goldenpatch,

It is possible to have a dog that is good with both. Some years ago I trained a Brittany on pigeons and pen raised quail. I then began hunting him on wild quail and grouse. He managed very well. He seemed to be able to handle wild birds earlier than many other dogs i had seen. But the key ingredient is birds. I was able to work him several days a week on pen raised birds and the farm i trained on had a resident covey of wild quail, so he had exposure to both. This may have been the reasoning behind his rapid progression into a good bird dog. Hope this helps.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by Elkhunter » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:12 pm

It makes me wonder how my western dogs even find birds.....


Andy, not to be the bearer of bad news but Doug has accomplished more in the "pointer" trials with a shorthair than you will ever accomplish with a pointer! And thats the truth.... :D He don't need to ride on the coat tails of his buddies.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by tommyboy72 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:22 pm

How do you guys think climate and demographics affect a dog's development and training?

I was talking with a close friend of mine the other day about dogs and he thinks it is very important. This friend of mine is in his mid 60's and professionally field trialed coondogs from the late 60's up to the early 1990's. He has won several national and world titles and sold dogs for up to $20,000 back in the 70's and 80's. He now runs bird dogs for fun but his take on it was that dogs raised in areas like Oklahoma, Texas, and Kansas really excel because of being raised and trained in dry, arrid regions with tough scenting conditions helps to condition dogs to finding game when dogs raised in more humid weather with better scenting conditions can't. Do any of you trialers find this true in the events you run? Is this why many professional trainers take dogs up to the Dakotas in the summer months? I know I have friends in my area that I get dogs from that are very successful trialers and trainers. Not sure if it is all breeding, training, the way they train, climate and adverse conditions or a combination of all of them. Whatever it is it works for them. According to the friend I mentioned above it seems to translate to the world of coonhunting as well. Just curious as to what the more experienced dog guys on here think.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by bigsugar » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:33 pm

That remains to be seen Elk.


Not ridin. Simply learnin. There's a difference. :D Everyone out west is a hero Elk. I'm well aware of it. :D

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by SCT » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:02 am

DGFavor wrote:
It's obvious you have read "How to Win Friends and Influence People"
:lol: :lol: Awww, now, I started it being a wiseazz giving Andy some grief! Sorry man, I need better self control before I get to run-off on the keyboard!!

I wish I had some great answer to the OP's question instead of just being a goof but this is just another one of those bird dog questions I dread on the WWW where there isn't a single answer that is going to satisfy everybody. IMO (my opinion based on my own experiences, not an opinioin someone told me :wink: ), there are many dogs that can do exemplary jobs on both pen raised and wild birds. This fall my Bugs dog took RU at Reg. 9 Am SD with nice finds on sharptails then traveled half way cross country to take RU at the GSP AA Nats on pen birds with 5 or 6 finds...came home from that and I've shot chukars and huns over him since. Out in our parts at some trial venues it's not uncommon to have to work both pen birds and native game on the same run of a trial. Trixie last spring won the Reg 9 ASD shorthair Ch with a find where I flushed a pair of huns and as I walked back to her a pen chuk flushed also (I claimed the huns!! :lol: ). She also pointed a single pen chuk that I chased around a bit to flush then had an awesome (IMO!), high on the hill find on a native pair of chuks in the same brace. One week a few years ago, 'ol Stitchy took a RU at the Reg. 8 NGSPA ASD with multiple finds on pen birds as well as a shot bird/retrieve, jumped him in the truck raced back west where I hear it's easier to win and put him in the NW Chukar OSD Ch - the next day had him point 3 hen phez just off the breakaway, a covey of huns, a pair of native chuks, then a single pen chuk standing in a two track...handled 'em all and I was already picturing us hoisting the trophy...then took himself out self relocating on me on find #5 while I was flushing at 56" - DOH!!! That was at Robertson ranch...where they train dogs that Richie hauls all over the country to compete...he just had one in the callbacks at the Florida AA (I'm not sure if that's where the best dogs are but I heard there were some good ones) but I imagine it was just courtesy to him for traveling that far with his sorry hounds. :lol: :lol: I don't necessarily attribute my above experiences to having outstanding dog flesh as much as I consider it good bird dog flesh that has been exposed to lotsa birds at lotsa places with lots of training.
Thank you Mr. Favor for your response, you too Mr. Gubernet. IMO it really comes down to exposure to birds. I'm no field trialer, but my pointer seems to treat wild and pen raised birds the same, except birds in traps. He doesn't give them the same respect. He's been into hundreds of wild birds and during months of training has been on pen birds often. From what I can tell he doesn't see much of a difference because he handles them very similarly. As far as he's concerned, hot scent is hot scent and he goes on point when it fills his nose. One difference is that he will usually point wild birds from slightly further away than pen birds, but that depends on the circumstances.

I think the climate question is a good one. I live in Utah so I wouldn't know the difference humidity may bring.

Great thread,

Steve

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by birddogger » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:38 am

Thank you Mr. Favor for your response, you too Mr. Gubernet. IMO it really comes down to exposure to birds. I'm no field trialer, but my pointer seems to treat wild and pen raised birds the same, except birds in traps. He doesn't give them the same respect. He's been into hundreds of wild birds and during months of training has been on pen birds often. From what I can tell he doesn't see much of a difference because he handles them very similarly. As far as he's concerned, hot scent is hot scent and he goes on point when it fills his nose. One difference is that he will usually point wild birds from slightly further away than pen birds, but that depends on the circumstances.
Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by nikegundog » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:28 am

tommyboy72 wrote:How do you guys think climate and demographics affect a dog's development and training?

I was talking with a close friend of mine the other day about dogs and he thinks it is very important. This friend of mine is in his mid 60's and professionally field trialed coondogs from the late 60's up to the early 1990's. He has won several national and world titles and sold dogs for up to $20,000 back in the 70's and 80's. He now runs bird dogs for fun but his take on it was that dogs raised in areas like Oklahoma, Texas, and Kansas really excel because of being raised and trained in dry, arrid regions with tough scenting conditions helps to condition dogs to finding game when dogs raised in more humid weather with better scenting conditions can't. Do any of you trialers find this true in the events you run? Is this why many professional trainers take dogs up to the Dakotas in the summer months? I know I have friends in my area that I get dogs from that are very successful trialers and trainers. Not sure if it is all breeding, training, the way they train, climate and adverse conditions or a combination of all of them. Whatever it is it works for them. According to the friend I mentioned above it seems to translate to the world of coonhunting as well. Just curious as to what the more experienced dog guys on here think.
I always thought SD is pretty humid in the summer months, I would think they take them there to put them on birds.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by JKP » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:33 am

Great discussion...

Practically every dog can smell 10 parts per billion when trained. I have a different take on the short and long nose discussion....I think its about the "central wiring" and the innate amount of caution a dog has....that's genetic....reinforced by exposure to wild birds, wild birds, and more wild birds.....with just enough training to round the edges without getting in the dogs way. Honest dogs point everything...they don't try to get closer...they don't smell the stink of a pen bird and get the urge to "see" it or grab it. They just point. We see a wide range of pointing in the Vdog breeds from rippers to top FT quality manners on birds. The best ones do it because they don't know different...it is the default mode. The best ones know when its a pheasant and when its a covey of sharpies and act accordingly....if we put our dogs in the learning situations often enough, the good ones get it. Too often dogs never get there because of our inability to offer the chance to learn.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by phoenix » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:51 am

I think there is one very specific piece of info being left out of this debate. Bird spicies. If you are talking say quail, then yes a good dog should be able to handle them both, pen & wild, if skilled. However once you change bird spicies then you are presenting a challenge. For instance you will rarely ever find a dog that handles different types of birds equally as well. Try running the same dog on Grouse in PA, Phez in SD & then pen birds. That should expose what you truely have. My two cents anyway.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:58 am

JKP wrote:Great discussion...

Practically every dog can smell 10 parts per billion when trained. I have a different take on the short and long nose discussion....I think its about the "central wiring" and the innate amount of caution a dog has....that's genetic....reinforced by exposure to wild birds, wild birds, and more wild birds.....with just enough training to round the edges without getting in the dogs way. Honest dogs point everything...they don't try to get closer...they don't smell the stink of a pen bird and get the urge to "see" it or grab it. They just point. We see a wide range of pointing in the Vdog breeds from rippers to top FT quality manners on birds. The best ones do it because they don't know different...it is the default mode. The best ones know when its a pheasant and when its a covey of sharpies and act accordingly....if we put our dogs in the learning situations often enough, the good ones get it. Too often dogs never get there because of our inability to offer the chance to learn.
+1

Doug

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by goldenpatch29 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:05 am

these comments are great and all these different opinions are exactly what I was hoping for. They have answered many of my questions. Keep them coming....need more!
Remember Knowledge is power....You can never have enough of either....hahahaha.

Another question that I had about the short nose and Long nose topic.
Do some of you think that more of the short nose dogs that do well in field trials are being bred more and less of the long nose dogs are being bred because of several reasons like.....

Scarcity of birds and being more dependent of the pen raised birds to hunt!

More publicity, exposure, and "dare I say it", money for the field trail dogs!

And maybe there are just more people out there that just want to hunt in competitive arenas like field trail competition.

Again I hope no one takes offense to this.....I am just young, stupid, and curious..... :D :D
Last edited by goldenpatch29 on Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by Grange » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:10 am

As a person that trials and trains on both wild and pen raised birds I think if a dog can only handle one type of bird then either it hasn't had enough exposure to one type of bird to know if it can handle that type of bird or it isn't a real bird dog.

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by Fester » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:37 am

I hunt my dogs on both no problem a good dog will adapt, I have to admit the first few wild covey rises made all my dogs more solid when young just like they scare me everytime, but also when you take that back to a preserve I think the dog will point with more caution and distance, I think it makes a better more solid dog to hunt him in all kind of situations and different type of game
Fester

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:46 am

goldenpatch29 wrote:these comments are great and all these different opinions are exactly what I was hoping for. They have answered many of my questions. Keep them coming....need more!
Remember Knowledge is power....You can never have enough of either....hahahaha.

Another question that I had about the short nose and Long nose topic.
Do some of you think that more of the short nose dogs that do well in field trials are being bred more and less of the long nose dogs are being bred because of several reasons like.....

Scarcity of birds and being more dependent of the pen raised birds to hunt!

More publicity, exposure, and "dare I say it", money for the field trail dogs!

And maybe there are just more people out there that just want to hunt in competitive arenas like field trail competition.

Again I hope no one takes offense to this.....I am just young, stupid, and curious..... :D :D

The "which dog gets bred" part of your question is a no-brainer. The dog that is promoted the most, ballyhooed the most and presented to the public as the best thing out there, by skilled marketeers...is the one that gets bred the most.

Being the most heavily bred stud, unfortunately, usually does not have a direct correlation to any ability level on the partof the dog.

There have been numerous National Champion dogs that were very sparingly used. There have been many multiple champion shooting dogs that were very sparingly used. There are dogs that haven't won any sort of title and some that have not even seen a test or trial that have been heavily bred.

RayG

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Re: Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

Post by goldenpatch29 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:00 am

This is for RayG!


Otay!.....Once again RayG you have given me a answer that I was looking for. The point I was trying to get to was, are we as bird hunters still progressively moving forward in the breeding of these wonderful dogs.

RayG if you dont mind me saying so....your a pretty smart fellow, and once again thank you for answering my questions!

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