Wild vs Pin Birds...Myth or Truth

[ElhewPointer]

When Im looking at a dog as far as breeding goes, I want a dog that has win/wins on something besides throwdown birds. I want to know that the dog knows how to handle wild birds.

As far as, can a dog be "good" at both. Yes, IMO. My old dog won the Michigan Ch.(Throwdown), Arkansas Ch.(Pre-released), Montana RUCh.(Wild Chicken and Huns), Beaver Creek(Wild Quail). A dog can be good at what ever you throw at him/her. A sidenote, I was happier with the RUCh rather than the Ch. because it was on wild birds. Gotta love a dog that can handle 7 finds on chickens and huns

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Gentlemen,
You can accomplish a great deal with Pen raised birds using the correct techniques, Dave Hughes does this kind of training with his cover dogs all the time.
However there is a great difference between a dog who just points birds and one that sets Grouse for his masters gunning.
The Grouse give lessons no planted bird will ever equal, when you are really Grouse hunting the difference in the dogs
becomes evident, most dogs trained on Pen raised birds seldom have the capibility to walk a Grouse for 1/2 mile thu the forest without bumping the Grouse, most times it takes the education on wild Grouse to make a great Grouse dog. I sure do not want a dog who crowds birds or can't at the least instinctively relocate when I am Grouse hunting here in Pa. I need a dog who walks Grouse to point, even if the dog must circle and cut off the bird and then set the bird for gunning. There is one bird however that can be used to help train in the open forest, the full grown Hun will act pretty much like a spooky Grouse after a few days in the woods. Prior to them being placed on the no shoot list here in Pa, we did use these released birds to help train our Grouse
dogs, and it worked very well. The Hun after all is just another kind of Grouse that can be raised in a large flight pen.
RGD/Dave

[DGFavor]

Lotsa good examples of things going well in this thread for dogs on both pen and wild - got me to thinking about the times things have gone wrong. Personally for me, my dogs have been "taken out" more often on pen birds as they just don't see me chasing birds around on the ground trying to get them to flush unless we are at a trial with pen birds (they do see a bunch of them when they are at the trainers as youngsters/greenies). On occasion, the dogs have been hammering along, skidded to a halt and been right on top of a pen bird that had to sort of be "rolled"/herded/drop kicked out into the open in order to make it's maiden flight into the wilds - scrambled the dogs brains and got us picked up. Unfortunately, I could probably go on and on about losing efforts the more I think about it. I can only think of twice getting the hook for breech of manners on native game although I imagine there's more - one this fall on Trixie right after having a sweet find on a covey of huns, I broke her away, she went about a hundred yards, swapped ends, took a step and bumped a single hun that she then chased outta site!! I also recall her getting the boot back in Montana after skidding to a stop, standing herself back up, taking a step and popping a sharpie out - I tried to bluff the judge that all was cool and went on, even had another cool, clean find right quick on a sharp but the judge came up and told me he wasn't buying what I was selling - Ned's a tough one to bluff!

[dan v]

Lotsa good examples of things going well in this thread for dogs on both pen and wild - got me to thinking about the times things have gone wrong. Personally for me, my dogs have been "taken out" more often on pen birds as they just don't see me chasing birds around on the ground trying to get them to flush unless we are at a trial with pen birds (they do see a bunch of them when they are at the trainers as youngsters/greenies). ...

Doug, in your opinion. Do you think there is more stress placed on the dog when working a pen bird, than a wild bird? Most pen birds would rather borrow under some grass than fly. Whereas the wild bird just goes out. So on the pen bird you can get these incredibly stressful flushing attempts.

And yeah, the dumb pen bird that walks towards the dog, does, IMO, put more stress on the dog than the wild bird.

[DGFavor]

Personally I think the pen bird walking around provides more temptation but dogs get pretty good at handling it if properly exposed to it (in my case, I use a pro that knows what he is doing) - the stress of flushing pen birds in a trial comes from the handler IMO. I used to approach the pen birds like I was walking on egg shells or like a lion was gonna jump outta the brush and get me - posture tight, shoulders humped up around my ears, tip toe'in around - my stress caused the dog's stress IMO. Now I try to be relaxed, posture relaxed, purposeful, confident and seems to help the dogs get thru it. This last fall my goal was to get on the podium at the Nat. Am Chukar AA. Been so close a couple times and I know Bugs can do it - I was pretty keyed up to do my part, leave it all on the field so to speak. He had a really good effort IMO really just rolling out thru the country, bending, hanging on the edge of the country. He had one NP at a spot that always has birds - I just couldn't produce one. Anyway, he went on point at pretty much time and I was keyed up to say the least!! As I confidently strolled in to flush, someone in the gallery hollered, "they're running up the hill above ya'!". I spotted about a half dozen chukar heads bobbin' thru the grass up the hill, I pretty much scramble my own brains and take off after 'em, hurdling a fence/cutting my hand/snagging my gun and tearing it off...needless to say Bugs had had enough and joined my chase - done deal. My stress became his stress, took us out, ruined his chances.

Yes, I do think the flush of wild birds is easier for the dogs to get thru - it's the initial finding and proper handling of them that can make or break 'em.

[goldenpatch29]

Lotsa good examples of things going well in this thread for dogs on both pen and wild - got me to thinking about the times things have gone wrong. Personally for me, my dogs have been "taken out" more often on pen birds as they just don't see me chasing birds around on the ground trying to get them to flush unless we are at a trial with pen birds (they do see a bunch of them when they are at the trainers as youngsters/greenies). ...

Doug, in your opinion. Do you think there is more stress placed on the dog when working a pen bird, than a wild bird? Most pen birds would rather borrow under some grass than fly. Whereas the wild bird just goes out. So on the pen bird you can get these incredibly stressful flushing attempts.

And yeah, the dumb pen bird that walks towards the dog, does, IMO, put more stress on the dog than the wild bird.

I am not a pro at all and do not claim to be, and I have hunted both pen raised birds and wild birds. More wild birds when I was younger with my dad and now I hunt more pen raised birds because od scarcity of wild birds in my area.
BUT I would have to say that both pen and wild birds put a equal amount of stress on the dogs, but in some cases it myabe a different kind of stress associated with each bird.
Yes, pen birds present problems with not flushing, burrowing, holding too tight, and walking toward the dog, but wild birds, "at least around here", scare very easily and sometimes fly away at the sound of a loud fart.
So, the dog has to be extra careful and stressful with those birds as well.....IMHO

[fuzznut]

Oh Doug... you are so right!!!!! it's the handlers that have the worse of it with pen raised birds! Heck, all the dog has to do is stand still!
Someone has to make a video of handlers trying to get pen birds to fly.....I'll bet you could win the million dollars!

Nothing worse then having your dog go on point and poking through the grass blade by blade trying to find that little darn quail that you know has buried under the grass. You know it's there, the dog know's it there... but gosh darn if you can find it!

Coming from the land of no wild birds, it is so cool to go to the sandhills and out west and see birds that do what real birds do! Y'all don't know how lucky you are to have that and have your puppies on them from the git go!

All good, all fun!
Fuzz

[Vision]

How do you guys think climate and demographics affect a dog's development and training?

I was talking with a close friend of mine the other day about dogs and he thinks it is very important. This friend of mine is in his mid 60's and professionally field trialed coondogs from the late 60's up to the early 1990's. He has won several national and world titles and sold dogs for up to $20,000 back in the 70's and 80's. He now runs bird dogs for fun but his take on it was that dogs raised in areas like Oklahoma, Texas, and Kansas really excel because of being raised and trained in dry, arrid regions with tough scenting conditions helps to condition dogs to finding game when dogs raised in more humid weather with better scenting conditions can't.

If this where true then the best dogs in the US would come from Utah, Nevada and Arizona the 3 driest states.

[Cajun Casey]

How do you guys think climate and demographics affect a dog's development and training?

I was talking with a close friend of mine the other day about dogs and he thinks it is very important. This friend of mine is in his mid 60's and professionally field trialed coondogs from the late 60's up to the early 1990's. He has won several national and world titles and sold dogs for up to $20,000 back in the 70's and 80's. He now runs bird dogs for fun but his take on it was that dogs raised in areas like Oklahoma, Texas, and Kansas really excel because of being raised and trained in dry, arrid regions with tough scenting conditions helps to condition dogs to finding game when dogs raised in more humid weather with better scenting conditions can't.

If this where true then the best dogs in the US would come from Utah, Nevada and Arizona the 3 driest states.

I would like to know what's dry about the eastern half of Oklahoma where the seasons are mid-winter and humid. Yet, two AA handlers make their home in the area.

[mudhunter]

Oh Doug... you are so right!!!!! it's the handlers that have the worse of it with pen raised birds! Heck, all the dog has to do is stand still!
Someone has to make a video of handlers trying to get pen birds to fly.....I'll bet you could win the million dollars!


Fuzz

I chased a covey of pen raised quail around the same tree at a trial this fall about half a dozen time because the judge wanted to "see them fly". The other judge finally told me to "just shoot the gun". The next find I rode up to see the birds running down a tree line away from the dog, I Basically dove off the horse at the birds and had an entire group fly right back at the dog that stood it perfectly! I had to laugh when I asked the judge if he saw them fly! Pen raised birds do offer a unique challenge that wild birds don't! The perfect dog is one that can find and pin wild birds (without creeping through PA grouse covert, haha) but can have a pen raised bird stand on their nose and still look great!

[RayGubernat]

I was roading two of my guys today. Both are prettey well seasoned. I had previously planted a bird about 10 feet off the path so I could road them into it. I kinda like doing that as I feel it keeps their interest up. I took the path to the bird after about about 20 minutes down and they locked up on it from the path. I went in to flush and, as I shot, the cotton pickin' bird flew around me and landed on the path...a couple of feet from the dogs' noses. I just stood there. DIDN'T SAY A WORD!...DIDN'T even BREATHE. Neither dog moved a muscle, but you could just see the look in their eyes. Maybe because they were in harness, maybe because they were together, maybe because I was RIGHT there...I dunno, but the long and the short of it is... they did not budge. Not even a toenail. I walked out between them and the bird and the little SOB flushed again...so I shot again. I patted both dogs up and turned them around and went home.

I do know when to quit.

And you better believe each one of them got a treat and a good rubbing up when we got back. I can't ask much more of a dog.

Wild birds can run, can be spooky, can be hard to locate, but are easy in some ways compared to the stupid, suicidal things that penraised birds will do.

RayG

[tommyboy72]

Casey we don't really consider you easterners over there part of Oklahoma anyway. We consider you city folks in the east to be from Arkansas. Oklahoma ends at I-35 for most of us out here.

[Grange]

I was roading two of my guys today. Both are prettey well seasoned. I had previously planted a bird about 10 feet off the path so I could road them into it. I kinda like doing that as I feel it keeps their interest up. I took the path to the bird after about about 20 minutes down and they locked up on it from the path. I went in to flush and, as I shot, the cotton pickin' bird flew around me and landed on the path...a couple of feet from the dogs' noses. I just stood there. DIDN'T SAY A WORD!...DIDN'T even BREATHE. Neither dog moved a muscle, but you could just see the look in their eyes. Maybe because they were in harness, maybe because they were together, maybe because I was RIGHT there...I dunno, but the long and the short of it is... they did not budge. Not even a toenail. I walked out between them and the bird and the little SOB flushed again...so I shot again. I patted both dogs up and turned them around and went home.

I do know when to quit.

And you better believe each one of them got a treat and a good rubbing up when we got back. I can't ask much more of a dog.

Wild birds can run, can be spooky, can be hard to locate, but are easy in some ways compared to the stupid, suicidal things that penraised birds will do.

RayG

That is why I love training with poor flying pen raised birds. That scenario is common.

[jasonw99]

http://fosteraward.com/Essays%20from%20 ... /Quail_Dog__

This may be of interest to you.

typical coverdog crap


you can win a grouse championship without even pointing grouse.


hate to tell u guys but you breed non bird finding digs. it's no secret the fewer birds u find the better the odds of winning

then your dog breaks point and hear the bird flush and scream wild flush. and it's ok.

[Winchey]

Are you that shorthair guy that has a chip on his shoulder cause your dogs suck and nobody will place them?

[dan v]

Personally I think the pen bird walking around provides more temptation but dogs get pretty good at handling it if properly exposed to it (in my case, I use a pro that knows what he is doing) - the stress of flushing pen birds in a trial comes from the handler IMO. I used to approach the pen birds like I was walking on egg shells or like a lion was gonna jump outta the brush and get me - posture tight, shoulders humped up around my ears, tip toe'in around - my stress caused the dog's stress IMO. Now I try to be relaxed, posture relaxed, purposeful, confident and seems to help the dogs get thru it.

Yes, I do think the flush of wild birds is easier for the dogs to get thru - it's the initial finding and proper handling of them that can make or break 'em.

Yeah, that's a lot of it. I also believe (from watching many people flush pen birds) that finding a pen bird is a learned art. Pros, who run/train on pen birds frequently, have a "knack" for walking right to the bird. Whereas a wild bird, normally you get in the area and out they go. I've watched the stress a pen bird, via the handler, puts on a dog. Wild birds are seldom flushed from the tip of a dogs nose, and seldom fly right back at the dog. I see both those as stressers that a wild bird doesn't place on a dog.

[RayGubernat]

http://fosteraward.com/Essays%20from%20 ... /Quail_Dog__

This may be of interest to you.

typical coverdog crap


you can win a grouse championship without even pointing grouse.


hate to tell u guys but you breed non bird finding digs. it's no secret the fewer birds u find the better the odds of winning

then your dog breaks point and hear the bird flush and scream wild flush. and it's ok.

Jasonw99 -

Nicely done. That was all class.

I actually went and read what Ryan Frame wrote. He is, of course a dyed in the wool grouse dog guy...and who, by the way, has not just seen, but seen and put his hands on more top shelf grouse dogs than most will ever even read about.

I thought his article was fairly even handed.

Jason - I went and looked at the trailer from perfect pedigrees on your posting. I noticed that the stud of the dog was a NSTRA champion. I must assume, therefore, that you, at least to some degree, equate the quailty of a dog with performance that particular venue. If you say so.

By the way, I do not agree that the ability to find AND RETRIEVE the largest number of birds that have been hand planted off a 4 wheeler in a 20-40 acre short grass field is the ultimate measure of bird finding ability. There is a bit more to it than that, I think.

RayG


RayG

[ckirsch]

It takes some degree of talent to succeed in any test or trial venue, whether they be held on crafty wild birds or pen-raised poultry. I have plenty of respect for dogs that win in either. From what I've experienced in the hunting and limited testing/trialing I've done, I would agree with dgfavor. It's typically much more difficult for dogs to locate and hold wild birds, but it can often be a bigger challenge for them to maintain their manners after the find when working on less-predictable pen-raised birds with kamikaze instincts.

In a perfect world, I'm guessing all events would be held on wild birds, but that's obviously not realistic. Anyone who completely discounts the use of pen-raised birds isn't thinking things through very well. Without them, there'd be no hunt tests and far fewer trials of any kind, which would give many of us a lot more time to sit around in the off-season and complain about having nothing to do. We're fortunate to have so many test and trial options available, as it would sure be a long stretch between December and September without them.

I'm not sure there is any single event that can truthfully claim to be the ultimate measure of a bird dog, although I suppose we all like to believe that distinction belongs to whatever venue we elect to participate in.

[Ron R]

I do not agree that the ability to find AND RETRIEVE the largest number of birds that have been hand planted off a 4 wheeler in a 20-40 acre short grass field is the ultimate measure of bird finding ability.

Why are you bashing NSTRA with your false perceptions. Pretty classy.

[Petroplex Hunter]

I have a ten month old EP; she's been pointing pen raised bobs, pheasants and pigeons for ~ 5 months. I don't like to dizzy the birds when I put them out, just chunk them and keep moving. The birds seem to act a little wilder and at least have their wits about them when she points and I move in to flush/shoot the birds. I've put zero pressure on the dog, just let her bump and run pen raised birds until she started pointing them on her own, no check cord, no voice commands, just let her figure it out on her own. When she was about 6.5 or 7 months olds something clicked and she started to point, hold, and I would kill the birds for her.

I work pen raised birds once a week, and chase wild birds once a week, sometimes twice a week. By wild birds I'm talking about west Texas blue quail. On the wild birds it's the same game, just turn her loose and let her work in areas where I always find blue quail around windmill tanks or some other source of water.

IMHO it is much easier for a dog to figure out and point pen raised birds; even the best flight conditioned birds are nothing compared to a covey of wild blue quail. Pen raised birds are the B team, OK to practice with, but you never know what you've got until you start playing with the big boys. My pup had been pointing pen raised birds excellently 3.5 or 4 months before she started to handle wild birds and we still have a long ways to go in terms of training before she'll have the wild birds down.

Last weekend I shot 6 pen raised pheasants for her and she looked like a million bucks on point. That Wednesday I ran her on some blues and bulldozed through two coveys in an hour. One of the coveys had 20 or 30 birds. I saw her pick up scent and keep moving towards the birds as they ran on the ground 20 yards ahead, and then finally they took flight and flew to the next zip code. Yesterday we went out and she ponited a little covey of three blue quail and handled them nicely.

IMHO if you're training a dog to hunt wild birds, they need to be worked on wild birds, especially if you're hunting blues.

[cjuve]

It takes some degree of talent to succeed in any test or trial venue, whether they be held on crafty wild birds or pen-raised poultry. I have plenty of respect for dogs that win in either. From what I've experienced in the hunting and limited testing/trialing I've done, I would agree with dgfavor. It's typically much more difficult for dogs to locate and hold wild birds, but it can often be a bigger challenge for them to maintain their manners after the find when working on less-predictable pen-raised birds with kamikaze instincts.

I totally agree with this statement but think that one has less to do with training and more to do with genetics than the other. I think that for the most part staying broke can have more to do with training and less with gentics than being able to handle and find wild birds.There is definately a genetic component to a dog being and staying broke while faced with the distractions of a kamakazi bird, but I do not think it is as common to find a dog that is missing the genetic component rather than one that is missing the training and exposure on pen birds(my opinion on this might change after I have broke a couple hundred dogs).

Being able to find and handle wild birds is IME an altogether different set of problems that the trainer can't train for so the dog needs to have enough brains to be able to figure that out on his own through exposure. IMO this is really where the genetics portion of it comes to play, how is the dog wired to handle birds that run, spooky birds and birds that hold. How much pressure does the dog need to put on the birds to make them set? There is a lot more that goes into this than just smelling the birds.

What I want in the end is a dog that is trained well enough to handle the kamakazi birds but has enough genetic wiring to adapt and handle the wide varity of birds(wild and tame) and terrian that I hunt and test on.

[RayGubernat]

I do not agree that the ability to find AND RETRIEVE the largest number of birds that have been hand planted off a 4 wheeler in a 20-40 acre short grass field is the ultimate measure of bird finding ability.

Why are you bashing NSTRA with your false perceptions. Pretty classy.

RonR -

That is NOT bashing...just a statement of my own personal opinion. What part of that was not clear? What part of my description of the typical NSTRA field and process was inaccurate? Do NSTRA trials not use 4 whelers to plant birds? Are NSTRA trials not typically held on fields of 20-40 acre size? Are NSTRA fields not typically fairly well groomed shooting preserve type fields? Is not the retrieve a MAJOR part of which dog is considered the best to the extent that a dog that has four or even five finds and zero retrieves will almost always be beaten by a dog that has three finds, three retrieves and a back?

I have absolutely nothing against NSTRA and think it is a terrific way to have fun with your dog. NSTRA can be VERY competitive and it is one of the very few venues where it matters not what breed of dog you have. Pointers, setters, Shorthairs and Brittanys all have an equal chance to shine. THAT is a fact that I have personally verified. If I was a better shot, I might be tempted to play that game too with the right dog.

However, I stand by my opinon that it takes more to determine which dog is a birdfinder than success in the NSTRA venue. I said, NSTRA is not the ULTIMATE measure. No more...no less. I did not say what was, because my definition of a birdfinder might well be different than someone else's.

RayG

[Ron R]

That is NOT bashing...just a statement of my own personal opinion.

That's not really what you were doing. You were retaliating to jason99's obnoxious post dis-crediting cover dog trials and noticed that he had a NSTRA Ch sired dog and begun to sink to his level discrediting NSTRA dogs. You're better than that.

20-40 acre short grass field

NSTRA fields are 40-60 acre minimum and the cover of the fields vary from place to place along with the time of the year. Would you agree that about 90% of field trials are ran on planted birds so in that sense NSTRA is no different than anything else. I really see no need to go on because I appreciate all venues and take them for what they are.

However, I stand by my opinon that it takes more to determine which dog is a birdfinder than success in the NSTRA venue. I said, NSTRA is not the ULTIMATE measure. No more...no less.

Nobody ever mentioned NSTRA but YOU. Therefor, nobody stated or insinuated that NSTRA was the ULTIMATE measure.

[goldenpatch29]

It takes some degree of talent to succeed in any test or trial venue, whether they be held on crafty wild birds or pen-raised poultry. I have plenty of respect for dogs that win in either. From what I've experienced in the hunting and limited testing/trialing I've done, I would agree with dgfavor. It's typically much more difficult for dogs to locate and hold wild birds, but it can often be a bigger challenge for them to maintain their manners after the find when working on less-predictable pen-raised birds with kamikaze instincts.

I totally agree with this statement but think that one has less to do with training and more to do with genetics than the other. I think that for the most part staying broke can have more to do with training and less with gentics than being able to handle and find wild birds.There is definately a genetic component to a dog being and staying broke while faced with the distractions of a kamakazi bird, but I do not think it is as common to find a dog that is missing the genetic component rather than one that is missing the training and exposure on pen birds(my opinion on this might change after I have broke a couple hundred dogs).

Being able to find and handle wild birds is IME an altogether different set of problems that the trainer can't train for so the dog needs to have enough brains to be able to figure that out on his own through exposure. IMO this is really where the genetics portion of it comes to play, how is the dog wired to handle birds that run, spooky birds and birds that hold. How much pressure does the dog need to put on the birds to make them set? There is a lot more that goes into this than just smelling the birds.

What I want in the end is a dog that is trained well enough to handle the kamakazi birds but has enough genetic wiring to adapt and handle the wide varity of birds(wild and tame) and terrian that I hunt and test on.

Can you find me one of those too.....lol

[cjuve]

Can you find me one of those too.....lol

The formula is really pretty simple = (right dog+right trianing)lots of wild birds= the perfect combination

Finding the right dog to enter the formula is the hard part depending on what your chosen venue is, that is really just a numbers game to an extent no matter what the breed.

[goldenpatch29]

Can you find me one of those too.....lol

The formula is really pretty simple = (right dog+right trianing)lots of wild birds= the perfect combination

Finding the right dog to enter the formula is the hard part depending on what your chosen venue is, that is really just a numbers game to an extent no matter what the breed.

I can train with pen birds (got plenty of those) and I can put the dog on wild birds too, but as far as the right dog, thats the part im trying to figure out.
So in setters and pointers, since those are the most popular, what lines do you recommend?

[birddogger]

Can you find me one of those too.....lol

The formula is really pretty simple = (right dog+right trianing)lots of wild birds= the perfect combination

Finding the right dog to enter the formula is the hard part depending on what your chosen venue is, that is really just a numbers game to an extent no matter what the breed.

I can train with pen birds (got plenty of those) and I can put the dog on wild birds too, but as far as the right dog, thats the part im trying to figure out.
So in setters and pointers, since those are the most popular, what lines do you recommend?

Try to find one who's parents are what you are looking for, and preferably have have been proven producers in the past. You can research the different lines and some lines are more popular or more successful than others but a lot of times it is just a personal preference. Of course you could just get a GSP and be good to go.

Charlie

[birddogger]

By the way, I do not agree that the ability to find AND RETRIEVE the largest number of birds that have been hand planted off a 4 wheeler in a 20-40 acre short grass field is the ultimate measure of bird finding ability. There is a bit more to it than that, I think.

RayG

Ray, there is no such thing as a dog game that is the ultimate measure of bird finding ability. That would have to be measured by a lot of hunting of different types of birds in different parts of the country and types of terrain.....No and I mean no field trial or test could come anywhere close to doing that. Besides, I have never heard anybody make that claim about NSTRA.

Charlie

[RayGubernat]

By the way, I do not agree that the ability to find AND RETRIEVE the largest number of birds that have been hand planted off a 4 wheeler in a 20-40 acre short grass field is the ultimate measure of bird finding ability. There is a bit more to it than that, I think.

RayG

Ray, there is no such thing as a dog game that is the ultimate measure of bird finding ability. That would have to be measured by a lot of hunting of different types of birds in different parts of the country and types of terrain.....No and I mean no field trial or test could come anywhere close to doing that. Besides, I have never heard anybody make that claim about NSTRA.

Charlie

Charlie -

I would most certainly agree that it takes more than one can see in an hour, or two or ten to determine whether a dog is a birdfinder or not.

However, we must first ask the question; "Why do we want to identify the best birdfinder?" Is it to purchase that dog? Probably not. Is it to identify a potential sire or dam capable of producing "birdfinders? Much more likely. Then we must ask the question: "Where would I go to find the best birdfinders?"

Where you look and how you look may depend on which birds you are trying to have the dog find and how and where you intend to go find them. I would offer the opinion that if one were interested in finding the best birdfinder for grouse in the areas from Michigan to, say, Maine, one might want to look hard at coverdogs. Whether that be at trials or elsewhere is certainly up to the individual, but it is a whole lot easier to see a whole bunch of dogs at a cover dog trial or two or three to perhaps narrow down your field of search.

RayG

[birddogger]

Oh absolutely Ray and I am in no way knocking cover dog trials.....Heck I don't even know anything about them. I was commenting on the fact that there is no one venue to find the ultimate bird finder if such a thing even exists.

Charlie

[birddogger]

I forgot to add one more thing to what you are saying......If a person is wanting a dog to compete in NSTRA trials or looking for a stud or bitch to buy a puppy or breed to for NSTRA competition, the NSTRA trials would be the place to look.

Charlie

[slistoe]

I forgot to add one more thing to what you are saying......If a person is wanting a dog to compete in NSTRA trials or looking for a stud or bitch to buy a puppy or breed to for NSTRA competition, the NSTRA trials would be the place to look.

Charlie

If I wanted to compete in the NSTRA circuit I would go to the Horseback Shooting Dog circuit and look at the dogs that are always into birds, then I would look to see if any of them had commonality in studs or dams. Then I would contact the owners of said studs or dams and find when their next breeding was.

[Ron R]

..If a person is wanting a dog to compete in NSTRA trials or looking for a stud or bitch to buy a puppy or breed to for NSTRA competition, the NSTRA trials would be the place to look.

I just can't agree with that. It would be one place to look but all-age bred dogs and shooting dogs would be as good a place to start looking for a pup...or even a better place IMO.

[birddogger]

..If a person is wanting a dog to compete in NSTRA trials or looking for a stud or bitch to buy a puppy or breed to for NSTRA competition, the NSTRA trials would be the place to look.

I just can't agree with that. It would be one place to look but all-age bred dogs and shooting dogs would be as good a place to start looking for a pup...or even a better place IMO.

You look'n for trouble? You may be right and know a lot more about what it takes to make a good NSTRA dog than I do. I have just always figured looking for a high performing dog in the particular venue you were interested in would be the best place to start.

Charlie