Lesser Breeds

KellyM87 · Post by **KellyM87** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:37 pm

Can someone please explain to me the appeal of the lesser pointing (or I guess flushing as well) breeds? I m talking Bracco Italianos, Braque du bourbonnais, German Longhair Pointers, Clumber Spaniels, Field Spaniels.... I just don't understand why people would go with a rarer breed when it seems like the more popular breeds are better bred, better proven, more driven ect..

"bleep" Lions.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:43 pm

Pretty simple really. They have seen and maybe owned one of our breeds and the ability to handle them and train them was beyond their grasp. We have created some very fine dog's with just to much drive for a lot of people. And then there is the people that just want to be different. I don't think any of these people are what we'd call serious hunter's.

rkappes · Post by **rkappes** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:57 pm

Are the breeds above really lesser or just not as common? I'd say just not as common in the U.S. and probably proven in their respective countries. I wouldn't say any of the people who own the dogs are less serious about hunting either.

Redfishkilla · Post by **Redfishkilla** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:02 pm

Who cares, to each his own.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:03 pm

Given the opportunity i think id like to own a bracco italiano at some point down the road.

Jim

JessW · Post by **JessW** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:08 pm

The same reason that there's 31 flavors of ice cream. Different strokes for different folks.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:08 pm

I guess if everyone wanted to own the Best Breed and not own any lesser breeds then we wouldn't need anything but the English Pointer

.

See, not everybody agrees on what the "lesser" breeds are. Is my Vizsla a "lesser" breed too? Or how about Nova Scotia Tollers in the waterfowl world? Different strokes for different folks. I do not enjoy dogs with long hair so an English Setter will never be my breed of choice, nor a Brittany. But I do like the Braque's I've met and would be interested in owning one someday. I hunt a lot.

My husband has a serious aversion to the labrador retriever, so we need to have a "lesser" breed as a retriever. I think it just depends on what you like! Some folks enjoy having a "different" breed and some folks just think their chosen "lesser" breed is the best, regardless of rarity.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:09 pm

JessW wrote:The same reason that there's 31 flavors of ice cream. Different strokes for different folks.

Just sayin' there are a lot more than 31 Flavors... and Mint Chocolate Chip is my favorite!

Good analogy!

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:38 pm

DonF wrote:Pretty simple really. They have seen and maybe owned one of our breeds and the ability to handle them and train them was beyond their grasp. We have created some very fine dog's with just to much drive for a lot of people. And then there is the people that just want to be different. I don't think any of these people are what we'd call serious hunter's.

How much did you make thinking last year, Don?

Is a Lab "our" breed? A shorthair? A draht? A Boykin? Are they "seriously" hunted? Think about it.

MG

KellyM87 · Post by **KellyM87** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:39 pm

rkappes wrote:Are the breeds above really lesser or just not as common? I'd say just not as common in the U.S. and probably proven in their respective countries. I wouldn't say any of the people who own the dogs are less serious about hunting either.

Fair enough, I should have said less common and not "lesser" poor wording on my part. It just seems like the more popular breeds would have a better gene pool, and it seems like the few other lesser known breeds I have seen have not had as much drive, needed more training ect.... just wondering.... is it for the novelty of owning a rarer breed?

4ShotB · Post by **4ShotB** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:44 pm

I researched, studied and worried about which breed to get for my first pup. I got one that I am tickled with...but ultimately I knew way down deep inside that if i had picked a pup from any hunting breed I would have been delighted as well. they are all good dogs really with some varying strengths and weaknesses. Of course, it's common knowledge that the English Setter is by far the superior breed for gun dogs but they all have their place.Just like everyone who drives a truck can't have a Ford

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:55 pm

Popular breeds suffer from popular site syndrome, so numbers don't necessarily equal diversity in genetics. For example, a trip down the branches of the family tree of many all age English pointers will terminate multiple times with Riggin's White Knight.

Also, the continental breeds follow a different evaluation process which includes a variety of areas of training over specified periods of time, so it's really not the same as American field trials or even hunt tests.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:59 pm

Of course, it's common knowledge that the English Setter is by far the superior breed for gun dogs but they all have their place.Just like everyone who drives a truck can't have a Ford

Your kidding, right?

Charlie

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:50 pm

Sorry...but when we start wondering why folks choose the dogs they do, I have to wonder, "Who's asking...and why?" I suspect the OP really wanted to ask another question but lacked the fortitude

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:53 pm

I wouldn't call them lesser breeds. Not as popular , but not lesser.
My friend has a Braque d'Bourbonais.
He always wins the Hunter Class and is now hunting ptarmagan in NFLD.

Ecw21 · Post by **Ecw21** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:12 pm

I agree...everyone should own whichever breed that they choose. A breed's rarity doesn't necessarily identify its owner as 'not a hunter' or not serious about loving hunting. Rather shortsighted to insinuate (or outright state in some cases) otherwise. Ultimately, that is what makes this sport great...you can own whatever dog is within your means and ability to own and hunt with him/her also! Last I checked, the forum address included the term 'gun dog'...didn't see 'Top 5 breeds' anywhere in the URL.

Eric

orbirdhunter · Post by **orbirdhunter** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:24 pm

If your trying to compare some of the less common breeds against some of the most popular hunting breeds and are tying to say that the less common are below the more popular in abilities then i would say that you need to think about this for a second....If anything in alot of cases i would say that your comments are backwards....
Are you going to take your chances with the shorthair pup in cardboard box in front of the grocery store...that the owner says the parents are hunters...or maybe the longhaired pointer who's pedigree is made of all dogs that are proven in hunt tests, all owned and hunted by hunters for 80yrs, only the best being bred........

You will actually find that at least with the continental breeds that the breeding regulations are strict, and all of the dogs are bred for hunters by hunters.
And Don, to say that someone that does not own a "common" "american" bred dog is not a serious hunter.....really.....

birdshot · Post by **birdshot** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:26 pm

I am thinking of the guy who resurrected the Clumber as a hunting dog, or the individuals who reinvented the Irish Setter. I read an article of a man who was working with American Cocker Spaniels putting the hunt and physical capabilities back into the breed. One day we might see the Itialian breeds surpass the German dogs in popularity. I am glad to see those less commom breeds being used in the field.

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:25 am

Gentlemen,
1st there is no such thing as a lesser breed, this wording came about here in the USA because the FT crowd actually believes their animals are somehow superior to other gun dogs, which is pure bull. Having owned many different gun dogs
and trained even more, each gun dog is bred to do a certain job, people happen to like different animals that hunt in different styles. One of the dogs in my home kennel is a Small Munsterlander, who is an incredible hunter and retriever of many different game animals and birds, as a pure companion hunting/retrieving dog he has few equals, however his hunting style is not like a Setter or a Pointer he is more like a wolf. Now some people like this and others hate it, as for being tested, the SM has been GVP tested for more than 100 years, assuring breed quality & standards. To say an animal like this is some kind of lesser breed is beyond arrogant. Breeding programs develope different kinds of animals, there is no such thing as a lesser breed, just dogs bred to do different kinds of hunting.
RGD/Dave

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:48 am

I'm expecting the next topic to be, "why would anyone walk when they could ride a horse?"

Thank goodness for the passion we all have...but I learned long ago that there will be a day when another "lesser" dog will hand my butt to me in the field...and that it is best to just keep my mouth shut and let the dog speak for me.

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:29 am

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Gentlemen,
1st there is no such thing as a lesser breed, this wording came about here in the USA because the FT crowd actually believes their animals are somehow superior to other gun dogs, which is pure bull. Having owned many different gun dogs
and trained even more, each gun dog is bred to do a certain job, people happen to like different animals that hunt in different styles. One of the dogs in my home kennel is a Small Munsterlander, who is an incredible hunter and retriever of many different game animals and birds, as a pure companion hunting/retrieving dog he has few equals, however his hunting style is not like a Setter or a Pointer he is more like a wolf. Now some people like this and others hate it, as for being tested, the SM has been GVP tested for more than 100 years, assuring breed quality & standards. To say an animal like this is some kind of lesser breed is beyond arrogant. Breeding programs develope different kinds of animals, there is no such thing as a lesser breed, just dogs bred to do different kinds of hunting.
RGD/Dave

Where the heck did anybody say trial dog? I think you are stirring the pot now with your jab at trialers :roll: Kelly isnt calling anything less of a dog i think she is asking about a smaller gene pool to draw from. I could be wrong i guess but i didnt see the conection to trialing

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:07 am

For me I like the idea of getting the real hunting back into the breeds that have been less popular or less know because of the smaller gene pool and the destruction of their hunting abilities because of being just pure pets or show creatures. I like the come back of the older breeds. I love reading about the history of breeds as they were and I love to see the old breeds resurrected when they can.

Often some of the breeds maybe are not up to the standard of the highest level of competitons but still make great hunting dogs and are a fun animal to own with a neat story. Also may time it is just pure personality and fitting in with our style of life and having something unique.

Personally, I own French brits and GSP's. Although, the french brit is not really a small gene pool, I like their way of moving through the grouse woods and their toughness. But I must admit I love their personalities which compared to the American Brits and Shorthairs I have had and been around are more exaggerated, which I like good or bad. I like it.

IMO

rkappes · Post by **rkappes** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:28 am

Ruffshooter wrote:For me I like the idea of getting the real hunting back into the breeds that have been less popular or less know because of the smaller gene pool and the destruction of their hunting abilities because of being just pure pets or show creatures. I like the come back of the older breeds. I love reading about the history of breeds as they were and I love to see the old breeds resurrected when they can.

Often some of the breeds maybe are not up to the standard of the highest level of competitons but still make great hunting dogs and are a fun animal to own with a neat story. Also may time it is just pure personality and fitting in with our style of life and having something unique.

Personally, I own French brits and GSP's. Although, the french brit is not really a small gene pool, I like their way of moving through the grouse woods and their toughness. But I must admit I love their personalities which compared to the American Brits and Shorthairs I have had and been around are more exaggerated, which I like good or bad. I like it.

IMO

Good post!

I’m enthralled with the history of breeds along with the progeny of specific breeding. And even specific ‘lines’ of dogs within breeds. It’s all pretty cool.

I’ve only been around a couple french britts for any amount of time but they are a hoot! They definitely have a lot of personality.

Benny · Post by **Benny** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:02 pm

To each their own. If it's a dog, it's a welcome hunting buddy to me. Weeeell, unless it's that mini-pincher across the culdesac from me that barks and acts like a pitbull when it's on grandma's leash. That is not a dog, that is a walking breathing chew toy.

Dakota Swede · Post by **Dakota Swede** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:11 pm

My dogs love chew toys ---- and pheasants too.

4ShotB · Post by **4ShotB** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:26 pm

birddogger wrote:
Of course, it's common knowledge that the English Setter is by far the superior breed for gun dogs but they all have their place.Just like everyone who drives a truck can't have a Ford
Your kidding, right?

Charlie

Charlie...of course i was kidding. trust me, i did a lot of research into buying my dog as I knew it was a longterm decision. I soon noticed that everybody liked their dog (breed). So I knew that is was more than likely that whatever dog I got, assuming it was from good hunting stock, would work for me. So i picked one that meet my criteria. One of them, oddly enough,is I just happened to like the looks of a setter. but I looked at and talked to people who had labs, britts, GSP's, pointers, vislas,DD's, munsterlanders, etc. Never did i talk to anyone who didn't like their dog.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:57 pm

4ShotB wrote:
birddogger wrote:
Of course, it's common knowledge that the English Setter is by far the superior breed for gun dogs but they all have their place.Just like everyone who drives a truck can't have a Ford
Your kidding, right?

Charlie

Charlie...of course i was kidding. trust me, i did a lot of research into buying my dog as I knew it was a longterm decision. I soon noticed that everybody liked their dog (breed). So I knew that is was more than likely that whatever dog I got, assuming it was from good hunting stock, would work for me. So i picked one that meet my criteria. One of them, oddly enough,is I just happened to like the looks of a setter. but I looked at and talked to people who had labs, britts, GSP's, pointers, vislas,DD's, munsterlanders, etc. Never did i talk to anyone who didn't like their dog.

Ya, I knew you were kidding, I was just fun'n with ya and you are absolutely right.

Charlie

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:46 pm

DonF wrote:Pretty simple really. They have seen and maybe owned one of our breeds and the ability to handle them and train them was beyond their grasp. We have created some very fine dog's with just to much drive for a lot of people. And then there is the people that just want to be different. I don't think any of these people are what we'd call serious hunter's.

WOW!!!!! Had much respect for you until this statement.

People like what they like plain and simple. I like that having a dog I can count on to retrieve a duck or goose, take to the field and hunt pheasants with and track a deer with if needed. Oh forgot about squirrel hunting. I like what I like.
I also liked that in order to breed the dogs had to be tested and have hips x-rayed at least OFA good and had to be with in the standards.

Or maybe I am just diffrent.

demi · Post by **demi** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:48 am

We own two Large Munsterlanders. We researched carefully before selecting this breed. Not only are they very beautiful versatile dogs, but they are awesome hunters. We chose the LM because of the history behind the breed and the fact that LM's have their own registry and our bred by hunters for hunters. In order to be bred and registered, LM's must pass a Natural Ability hunt test and have their hips Xrayed, have normal temperaments and also be within the standard. Many breeders go beyond these basic criteria, but more importantly, they follow the pups beyond placement and ask that pup owners inform them of any health issues, and they ask that pups be hunt tested and provide feedback.

Our first hunting dog was a GSP. He was an awesome hunting dog and a member of our family, purebred but not papered. He came from a backyard breeder and we paid $65 for him. We got lucky, he had no health issues and lived to the age of 14. We had adopted a mixed breed hunting dog that had health issues and had to be put down at the age of one year, so when we started looking at breeds for our next hunting dog, knowing as much as possible about the history and breeding of the hunting dog was important to us.

Our LM's are family pets first. They live in our home and they are allowed to share my half of the bed if they so desire. Both have passed the NAVHDA UT Test. My older one is a UT Prize I, and our youger LM passed the UT test at the age of 16 months with a UT Prize II. I'll test her again this year, mostly for fun, but she is capable of a Prize I, so that is my goal. Both have been trained and handled by myself, a total rookie when I started working with our first LM.

We didn't choose the LM breed to be different, we simply felf that they were the best breed for us after doing a lot of research. They both have amazing personalites, love to hunt for us, make great members of our family, and they are healthy. That is what we were looking for.

Bird Dog 67 · Post by **Bird Dog 67** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:53 pm

DonF wrote:Pretty simple really. They have seen and maybe owned one of our breeds and the ability to handle them and train them was beyond their grasp. We have created some very fine dog's with just to much drive for a lot of people. And then there is the people that just want to be different. I don't think any of these people are what we'd call serious hunter's.

Possibly the most asinine comment I've ever read on here.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:31 pm

For asinine I think he is pretty close to on the money. Different strokes for different folks. Pretty sure the high strung 100 mph dogs are the peak as far as stamina and drive and bird finding (out west) but the closer working paced dog that trots will work for the average hunter that doesn't want to go 1/2 mile because his dog is on the next ridge on point. Lesser breed yes but doesn't make it wrong for you to think its the best.

chiendog · Post by **chiendog** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:45 pm

Why people choose one breed over another goes way beyond just "different strokes for different folks". It comes down to the role that emotions play in our decision making process. In fact it is a very complex topic that is currently the focus of a lot of research among neuro-scientists http://boingboing.net/2009/09/08/how-we ... ind-b.html

One experiment highlighted how introspection (or lack thereof) can influence our decisions and how we feel about them after:

Timothy Wilson, a U Virginia psychologist, asked two groups of female college students to choose and keep their favorite art print from a selection containing a Monet, a van Gogh, and some inspirational kitten posters. A control group was asked to rate each poster from 1 to 9 and keep their top one. The experimental group was asked to fill in questionnaires about what they liked about each poster.

The controls overwhelmingly picked the fine art. Follow-up questions established that they were still happy with their decisions weeks later.

But the experimental group -- the group that had to explain what they liked about each poster -- chose the kittens. And when they were followed up, they were disappointed with their decision.

Wilson explains that the failure arises because the good things about fine art are difficult to describe: they are intangible aesthetic elements. We like them, but most of us can't explain why. On the other hand, the virtues of a kitten-picture are easy to enumerate. When asked to explain, rationally, which one is best, kittens win every time. But it is this very superficiality that causes us to quickly tire of the kittens and wish for a Monet.

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:18 pm

Your reasoning is about as asinine as his comment........

You two aren't related are you?

Coveyrise64

ultracarry wrote:For asinine I think he is pretty close to on the money. Different strokes for different folks. Pretty sure the high strung 100 mph dogs are the peak as far as stamina and drive and bird finding (out west) but the closer working paced dog that trots will work for the average hunter that doesn't want to go 1/2 mile because his dog is on the next ridge on point. Lesser breed yes but doesn't make it wrong for you to think its the best.

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:33 pm

Coveyrise64 wrote:Your reasoning is about as asinine as his comment........ You two aren't related are you?

Coveyrise64

ultracarry wrote:For asinine I think he is pretty close to on the money. Different strokes for different folks. Pretty sure the high strung 100 mph dogs are the peak as far as stamina and drive and bird finding (out west) but the closer working paced dog that trots will work for the average hunter that doesn't want to go 1/2 mile because his dog is on the next ridge on point. Lesser breed yes but doesn't make it wrong for you to think its the best.

KellyM87 · Post by **KellyM87** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:20 pm

RoostersMom wrote:I guess if everyone wanted to own the Best Breed and not own any lesser breeds then we wouldn't need anything but the English Pointer .

See, not everybody agrees on what the "lesser" breeds are. Is my Vizsla a "lesser" breed too? Or how about Nova Scotia Tollers in the waterfowl world? Different strokes for different folks. I do not enjoy dogs with long hair so an English Setter will never be my breed of choice, nor a Brittany. But I do like the Braque's I've met and would be interested in owning one someday. I hunt a lot.

My husband has a serious aversion to the labrador retriever, so we need to have a "lesser" breed as a retriever. I think it just depends on what you like! Some folks enjoy having a "different" breed and some folks just think their chosen "lesser" breed is the best, regardless of rarity.

I did not consider a Viszla as a lesser breed. If you looked at the list it contained mostly dogs of imported blood.. Viszla's have been established here for a while.... The flushings dogs may not be of imported bloodlines, but they are rare just by numbers.... I am talking gundog breeders too, not "bench" dogs.

I mean, I know the whole "31 flavors of ice cream" debate. I get it. However, eating ice cream is not the same as hunting a dog.... you eat any flavor of ice cream and you know your flavor and you will be satisfied at the end. If you get a gun dog for a "rarer flavor" you may not be satisfied, it affects your hunting, and your home life. It just seems like a lot bigger gamble going with a rare breed because of how new they are here, and how much different hunting and training is from where they were from.

For example: my friend who is a trainer was training a "Deutsch Kurzhaar" Sorry if I spelled it wrong. This dog needed A LOT of effort just to get her to point. Then she was hard headed as they come and needed a lot more work to train. For the effort it seems like a shorthair would be easier, look the same, and have a lot of the same talents, if not more. Only difference I see is the german specific testing... but then again, there are all sorts of testing you can always do, as long as your registered.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:25 pm

I think vizslas have a lot more pointer then some think.....

Wonder where the white on the chest and toes came from?

chiendog · Post by **chiendog** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:52 pm

If you get a gun dog for a "rarer flavor" you may not be satisfied, it affects your hunting, and your home life.

There is always a risk of getting a dog that you are not satisfied with... of any breed of pointing dog (or any breed of dog for that matter). The bottom line is that any dog you are not satisfied with, for whatever reason, is a sad dog with a sad owner and sad family.

The key is finding the right dog for YOU. For some, the right dog just happens to be from a rare breed.

It just seems like a lot bigger gamble going with a rare breed because of how new they are here, and how much different hunting and training is from where they were from.

Yes. Rarer breeds can indeed represent a bigger gamble. But don't forget that just because a breed is popular or has been here longer does not mean the the odds are automatically better. What do you think the chances are of finding a hard hunting, easily trained Weimaraner by randomly picking a pup from any of the thousands of Weim litters produced every year in the US? I'd say the odds are about 10 thousand to one against. But what are the odds for finding a decent hunting Pudelpointer or Large Munsterlander by randomly picking a pup out of any litter produced in North America? I'd say the odds are pretty good.

Again, the key is finding a good individual dog that floats your boat. And now that I have seen every single pointing breed on the planet I can say that there are good dogs, owned by completely satisfied hunters, in every breed.

The trick is to find the one you will be happy with.

That said, I also recognize that most people do not want to do a ton of homework and research every breed and breed line just to find a good hunting dog. And it costs time and money to really dig into some of the lesser known breeds that are only available in other countries. So I agree with those who say that most hunters, especially if they are getting their first gundog, should probably go with one of the more mainstream breeds. They will probably have better odds of finding a decent hunter among them that can be found closer to home, can cost less and come from a good breeder who speaks their language.

Since my book came out (and even well before) lots of folks contacted me to get advice about this or that kind of dog. And I have helped a number of them get a pup from some pretty obscure breeds. But I have also told a lot of others to look for a good GSP, GWP, Pointer, Setter, Brit or even a Lab. For them, it just made sense and they ended up happy with their dogs. But so did the folks I helped get dogs from more obscure breeds..including my wife! She has a Pont Audemer Spaniel (one of only 300 on the planet) and loves her (so do I, that Ponto is a very good pheasant dog). In fact, she'd get another one in a heartbeat...or maybe a Portuguese Pointer, a breed only slightly less rare...

I wrote about a "Rare" breed here: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/200 ... -rare.html

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:53 pm

People like what they like plain and simple. I like that having a dog I can count on to retrieve a duck or goose, take to the field and hunt pheasants with and track a deer with if needed. Oh forgot about squirrel hunting. I like what I like.
I also liked that in order to breed the dogs had to be tested and have hips x-rayed at least OFA good and had to be with in the standards.

Or maybe I am just diffrent.

Nope, you are not different, you are right on.

Charlie

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:36 pm

chiendog wrote: Yes. Rarer breeds can indeed represent a bigger gamble. But don't forget that just because a breed is popular or has been here longer does not mean the the odds are automatically better. What do you think the chances are of finding a hard hunting, easily trained Weimaraner by randomly picking a pup from any of the thousands of Weim litters produced every year in the US? I'd say the odds are about 10 thousand to one against. But what are the odds for finding a decent hunting Pudelpointer or Large Munsterlander by randomly picking a pup out of any litter produced in North America? I'd say the odds are pretty good.

I was rather disappointed with Kelly taking jabs at other people choose in dogs, however I don't think I seen anyone take a jab at a particular breed like you just did. 10 thousand to 1 against finding a good Weim?

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:45 pm

nikegundog wrote:
chiendog wrote: Yes. Rarer breeds can indeed represent a bigger gamble. But don't forget that just because a breed is popular or has been here longer does not mean the the odds are automatically better. What do you think the chances are of finding a hard hunting, easily trained Weimaraner by randomly picking a pup from any of the thousands of Weim litters produced every year in the US? I'd say the odds are about 10 thousand to one against. But what are the odds for finding a decent hunting Pudelpointer or Large Munsterlander by randomly picking a pup out of any litter produced in North America? I'd say the odds are pretty good.
I was rather disappointed with Kelly taking jabs at other people choose in dogs, however I don't think I seen anyone take a jab at a particular breed like you just did. 10 thousand to 1 against finding a good Weim?

I kind of agree with his comments. Most wiems arent bred for the field. Go back and carefully read what he wrote.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:52 pm

brad27 wrote:
nikegundog wrote:
chiendog wrote: Yes. Rarer breeds can indeed represent a bigger gamble. But don't forget that just because a breed is popular or has been here longer does not mean the the odds are automatically better. What do you think the chances are of finding a hard hunting, easily trained Weimaraner by randomly picking a pup from any of the thousands of Weim litters produced every year in the US? I'd say the odds are about 10 thousand to one against. But what are the odds for finding a decent hunting Pudelpointer or Large Munsterlander by randomly picking a pup out of any litter produced in North America? I'd say the odds are pretty good.
I was rather disappointed with Kelly taking jabs at other people choose in dogs, however I don't think I seen anyone take a jab at a particular breed like you just did. 10 thousand to 1 against finding a good Weim?
I kind of agree with his comments. Most wiems arent bred for the field. Go back and carefully read what he wrote.

I did read what he wrote, he said if you randomly picked 10,000 Weims you might find ONE that is hard hunting and easily trained.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:01 pm

I did read what he wrote, he said if you randomly picked 10,000 Weims you might find ONE that is hard hunting and easily trained.

That's not what he said.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:06 pm

KellyM87 wrote:
RoostersMom wrote:I guess if everyone wanted to own the Best Breed and not own any lesser breeds then we wouldn't need anything but the English Pointer .

See, not everybody agrees on what the "lesser" breeds are. Is my Vizsla a "lesser" breed too? Or how about Nova Scotia Tollers in the waterfowl world? Different strokes for different folks. I do not enjoy dogs with long hair so an English Setter will never be my breed of choice, nor a Brittany. But I do like the Braque's I've met and would be interested in owning one someday. I hunt a lot.

My husband has a serious aversion to the labrador retriever, so we need to have a "lesser" breed as a retriever. I think it just depends on what you like! Some folks enjoy having a "different" breed and some folks just think their chosen "lesser" breed is the best, regardless of rarity.

I did not consider a Viszla as a lesser breed. If you looked at the list it contained mostly dogs of imported blood.. Viszla's have been established here for a while.... The flushings dogs may not be of imported bloodlines, but they are rare just by numbers.... I am talking gundog breeders too, not "bench" dogs.

I mean, I know the whole "31 flavors of ice cream" debate. I get it. However, eating ice cream is not the same as hunting a dog.... you eat any flavor of ice cream and you know your flavor and you will be satisfied at the end. If you get a gun dog for a "rarer flavor" you may not be satisfied, it affects your hunting, and your home life. It just seems like a lot bigger gamble going with a rare breed because of how new they are here, and how much different hunting and training is from where they were from.

For example: my friend who is a trainer was training a "Deutsch Kurzhaar" Sorry if I spelled it wrong. This dog needed A LOT of effort just to get her to point. Then she was hard headed as they come and needed a lot more work to train. For the effort it seems like a shorthair would be easier, look the same, and have a lot of the same talents, if not more. Only difference I see is the german specific testing... but then again, there are all sorts of testing you can always do, as long as your registered.

Maybe it's a trainer problem.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:08 pm

brad27 wrote:
I did read what he wrote, he said if you randomly picked 10,000 Weims you might find ONE that is hard hunting and easily trained.
That's not what he said.

Brad Let me quote if for you

I'd say the odds are about 10 thousand to one against.

Is that close to 10000 to 1. Seems like it to me.

Ezzy

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:10 pm

brad27 wrote:
I did read what he wrote, he said if you randomly picked 10,000 Weims you might find ONE that is hard hunting and easily trained.
That's not what he said.

Direct quote: What do you think the chances are of finding a hard hunting, easily trained Weimaraner by randomly picking a pup from any of the thousands of Weim litters produced every year in the US? I'd say the odds are about 10 thousand to one against.

chiendog · Post by **chiendog** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:12 pm

I don't think I seen anyone take a jab at a particular breed like you just did. 10 thousand to 1 against finding a good Weim?

Sorry, no jab intended. I only offered my opinion and an educated guess based on a) the research I have done into every single pointing breed on the planet and b) my own involvement with Weimaraners for nearly 20 years. I own Weims. I hunt about 50 days a season over Weims from US field trial lines and German lines. I have hunted with my dogs and those of others in Canada and the US and have photographed Weims in a half dozen European countries including the breed's homeland.

My comment of the breed referred to the odds of "finding a hard hunting, easily trained Weimaraner by randomly picking a pup from any of the thousands of Weim litters produced every year in the US?" Let's not forget that there are nearly 10 thousand Weim pups registered with the AKC every year and several thousand more that are bred but not registered. Yet only a couple hundred or so among all those dogs come from proven hunting lines. The vast majority of Weims pups available every year come from lines based on 20 or more generations of show dogs/grey couch potatoes. So what ARE the odds of getting a hard hunting, easily trained gundog if you just randomly picked a pup from any old litter? My guess is about 10 thousand to one. You're guess may be different. But I don't think anyone with any amount of experience with the breed can deny that they odds are staggering.

Look, I love Weims and will probably always have a grey dog or two with me in the field. But I am under no delusion about the current state of the breed in North America and would once again refer readers to what I wrote a few years back on the topic. http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/200 ... -rare.html and also here: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/200 ... t-way.html

LincolnAlexander · Post by **LincolnAlexander** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:12 pm

Craig isn't taking a shot against Weims (he owns 3 hunting weims after all), he is simply stating the truth... the vast majority of Weims are bred as pets, and have little hunting ability any more. I own 2 hunting Weims and I agree with them. That being said, it doesn't mean you can't find them, you just have to do some research.

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:16 pm

Gentlemen,
Maybe talking about a more rare breed might be a better way of communicating about dogs with a smaller gene pool.
Certainly the connotations are completely different, and to my thinking a lot more acceptable. Because I train so many
different pointing dog breeds in the Grouse woods, I do take exception to the lesser breed usage. Because a dog breed comes from a smaller gene pool, does not make that breed a lesser animal, just try telling a Chessie owner he owns a lesser breed one time, better put your hands up quick after you say it however. Animals are bred to due a certain job and meet a certain breed standard, many of these rarer breeds have been bred & tested for hundreds of years to do a certain hunting job. The Gordon Setter, Irish Setters & Weimars are three of these rarer animals, each bred to accomplish a certain job and meet a certain breed standard.
Now here in the USA some of these dogs have been damaged by breeders just wanting to sell pretty dogs for serious money.
It is the price we pay here in the USA for a freedom unknown thru out most of the rest of the world, however the original breed
standards of these animals do exist and can be purchased even today, from their own home lands, they are by no means lesser
breeds, because they have a smaller gene pool.
RGD/Dave

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:40 pm

In defense of the OP, he has already said that "lesser breeds" was a poor choice of words and not what he really meant. He meant to say lesser known breeds or less popular breeds. Of course I don't know what he is actually thinking, but he did try to clarify it.

Charlie

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:54 am

birddogger wrote:In defense of the OP, he has already said that "lesser breeds" was a poor choice of words and not what he really meant. He meant to say lesser known breeds or less popular breeds. Of course I don't know what he is actually thinking, but he did try to clarify it.

Charlie

Ya, who really knows for sure the motive behind the post. But it has been mentioned by a couple of members here how those of us with the "Lesser" breeds are looked upon.
It is that same elitist attitude that makes people like us run away from the "Popular" breeds if only to keep from being swept in to the same delusional pool they are swimming in.

Early on in my involvement with dogs, I thought the breed I had and the way I did things was the way things should be done. I pushed my breed on folks and alot of my training ideas.
Maturity has prevailed however, and I now understand that people like what they like and that is fine. I dont go around bashing other breeds and I would expect the same treatment from others here.

Chiendog makes some good points. When my husband and I decided to buy our first gundog we were over whelmed by the research on which litters to get dogs from. All were popular breeds that we were looking at. We felt that with all the backyard breeding, show breeding etc. that we wouldnt be knowledgeable enough to weed out the bad to pick the good. There were simply way to many options.
So, we found a breed that not only fit the standards that we wanted in size and hunting ability, but in what was required for these dogs to be bred. This actually made things easier for us as new hunting dog owners. Has this made things full proof? Not in the least. We still have to be careful where we pick dogs from because true to form there are those out for the buck and not the breed.

Anyway, it has been fun being on this site,but this topic isnt cool at all. I suspect that the warm weather has kept those from Ice fishing so they come onto the site to do a diffrent kind of fishing.