Choosing Judges

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:25 pm

How do you choose to which judges to show your dog and, more importantly, which to contract for events? I have had this conversation with a couple of people lately and the walking in a horseback stake made me think of it.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:28 pm

Pick judges that have done something in their life and know what a good dog is....

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:33 pm

Good question...I go with who says yes.

In reality, a FT judge has bred a few litters, trained a few dogs, ran in competition, hunted and has the respect of their peers.

To put a finer point on it...Has bred some litters in which they have held back and raised them, moving on those that didn't fit their ideal. Has trained some dogs to a level required to win. Has finished a FC, or won a Ch. And has hunted a variety of wild upland game birds. And of course has the respect of their peers within the sport.

original mngsp · Post by **original mngsp** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:40 pm

Good question...I go with who says yes.

Very very true

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:49 pm

Hmmmm, should have made it an opt out question. How do you decide whom not to use or enter under?

Post by **topher40** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:59 pm

The folks that say no I cant use, judges are hard to find. Especially judges for a good price! As for picking what judges to run under you really have to know what the judges are looking for overall. If you dont have that then what is the point?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:06 pm

I don't worry about it...for two reasons, the first is that I think that sort of thinking removes accountabality for what we can control and the second is that where the heck do you cut the list off? A judge that makes a decision I don't agree with today isnt likely to have the same factors the next time, and there is always a minimum of two judges.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:33 pm

Look at the type of dogs they run. If you run the same type of dogs then chances are you'll mesh well with them. If not then I wouldn't ask them to judge or run under them. You won't be happy with either result.

Judges aren't hard to find. GOOD judges are hard to find.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:34 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I don't worry about it...for two reasons, the first is that I think that sort of thinking removes accountabality for what we can control and the second is that where the heck do you cut the list off? A judge that makes a decision I don't agree with today isnt likely to have the same factors the next time, and there is always a minimum of two judges.

There comes a point when you have to ask, "Who am I running this dog for? The judges, or myself?"

Thee original mngsp knows of which I speak....there are some clubs, depending on the judges, you better be happy paying for the practice session....'cause you ain't likely getting anything done....well maybe the red ribbon.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:02 pm

Vizsla trials in the Midwest.......

Post by **topher40** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:08 pm

bigsugar wrote:Judges aren't hard to find. GOOD judges are hard to find.

Amen! The good ones arent cheap though.......

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:28 pm

Even a practice session beats working....

mudhunter · Post by **mudhunter** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:50 pm

just run your dog, you know if your dog deserves to win or not.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:52 pm

Doesn't make any sense mudhunter. There's no point in wasting entry fees and traveling if you dont have a legit chance to win from the get go.

mudhunter · Post by **mudhunter** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:03 pm

bigsugar wrote:Doesn't make any sense mudhunter. There's no point in wasting entry fees and traveling if you dont have a legit chance to win from the get go.

Your right, sit home and complain how unfair it is. I do actually agree a little bit, if I know a judge has a REAL bias against me or my dogs I might not go, but I don't pick and choose trials based on judges.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:06 pm

Jeezy, I was thinking more on the lines of I don't inquire about judging of anyone I've seen as the topic of an e-mail requesting prayer and I don't enter under judges who bred the parents of three fourths of the entries.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:15 pm

True story: My friend had a judge say to him , " Were placing Joe's dog today instead of yours. I know your dog was "better" but Joe comes every week end and never places ."

Needless to say, that was his last trial under that Judge.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:24 pm

I don't sit at home and complain about it either. If I don't like the judge I don't go. Plain and simple.

Also I rarely enter a stake where the judges aren't known by the time of the drawing.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:16 pm

If I'm chairing a trial, #1)I require a judge that is fair and impartial. They don't necessarily have to like MY kind of dog, but they need to place dogs regardless of breed, who's handling, etc. I've used judges several times that have never given my dog points, but they were fair and did a good job, so they warranted being asked back.
#2) They also need to be qualified, obviously - handled dogs before, finished dogs, they need to have a good idea what they're looking at. A career judge that has only ever watched other people's dogs doesn't impress me. It's hard to demand respect if you've never walked the walk yourself.
#3) They also need a backbone. eg - there are 2 judges on the stake, there should be 2 opinions. I don't want the handlers splitting up and one of them getting screwed because the judge following them just rolls over to the other judge at every opportunity.

When I'm deciding where to run, I don't go where #1 is not met by both judges. I MAY take my chances on 2 and 3, provided the other judge is worth a darn, and the only other option is sitting on the couch. Plenty of trials I've skipped because I don't stand a chance under the judges.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:18 pm

bigsugar wrote:I don't sit at home and complain about it either. If I don't like the judge I don't go. Plain and simple.

Also I rarely enter a stake where the judges aren't known by the time of the drawing.

Thats not all true. You guys ran under me and I know Andy doesn't like me, soooo you guys give more people chances than you say. Which is good.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:33 pm

Judges have to meet a variety of criteria, depending on whom the field trial is being run by.

Sometimes, the number one criterion seems to be: "Does the prospective judge own a horse?

Kidding aside, whether or not the prospective judge owns their own horse is, in some ways actually, a good measuring stick. If someone is serious enough about the sport to own their own ride, they are, more than likely a fairly serious competitor and more than likely have(or have had in the past) a hand in the training, development and handling of their own dogs.

A club being able to avoid the cost of a wrangler at a trial can make the difference whether or not the club makes a couple of bucks on the trial, or loses its shirt. That sucks, but it is reality.

RayG

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:16 pm

Yeah and you pick our dog up Vagas when it was our bracemate putting up birds.

No big deal. Both dogs looked identical. Our bracemate went to be under birds right after that anyway. Andy still gets a chuckle out of that. We had more people in the gallery ask us why we got picked up that day then I can remember. It's not a big deal. Sh!t happens. Andy wasn't mad about it. He said it was an honest mistake.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:23 pm

Never heard that. Guess I need glasses. Or just not judge anymore. That sounds better to me.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:25 pm

Vagas neither Andy nor myself think you treated our dog unfairly. It just a mess up. Not a big deal. Andy would probably run under you again for what it's worth.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:39 pm

I can't afford to pick and choose. I go where I can; that presents good competition, regardless of the Judges, unless they are just that terribly bad.

As an aside, most people don't use it for anything more than Dog Field Trial Record look-ups, but if you go to http://www.remekvizslas.net/ftHome.php4, you can also look at MANY Judges Records to see what it is they seem to like putting up.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:22 pm

AHGSP wrote:I can't afford to pick and choose. I go where I can; that presents good competition, regardless of the Judges, unless they are just that terribly bad.

As an aside, most people don't use it for anything more than Dog Field Trial Record look-ups, but if you go to http://www.remekvizslas.net/ftHome.php4, you can also look at MANY Judges Records to see what it is they seem to like putting up.

Thanks. Never even thought about that site for judges. I'm pretty good at picking them, apparently.

doco · Post by **doco** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:33 pm

AHGSP wrote:I can't afford to pick and choose. I go where I can; that presents good competition, regardless of the Judges, unless they are just that terribly bad.

Same here. 6 - 8 hours for the closest trials for me. I go and it is what it is. Let em rip and let the judges sort it out. I've always had a good idea when I was in the hunt by the performance of the dog, not the judges. If the performance was what I wanted and my scout is beaming also, then the judges don't matter.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:28 am

RayGubernat wrote: Sometimes, the number one criterion seems to be: "Does the prospective judge own a horse?

Kidding aside, whether or not the prospective judge owns their own horse is, in some ways actually, a good measuring stick. If someone is serious enough about the sport to own their own ride, they are, more than likely a fairly serious competitor and more than likely have(or have had in the past) a hand in the training, development and handling of their own dogs.

A club being able to avoid the cost of a wrangler at a trial can make the difference whether or not the club makes a couple of bucks on the trial, or loses its shirt. That sucks, but it is reality.

RayG

I see where you're coming from, but I've seen plenty of folks that own horses that have no business judging and no experience running their own dogs

I get what you're saying, though. A decent judge with his own horse is gold and tends to get a lot of assignments. Horses can be a big expense and make or break a trial, bringing someone in that already has one makes things a lot easier.

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:43 am

Ray was tongue in cheek on the horse comment!!

Iv'e been out and out dogged, so to speak, and I've won when I know I shouldn't have won, some judges are idiots, some hate me, some like me, some like my particular dog or my type of dog, some like GSPs to "look like a brit", yes I heard that once from a judge here in Texas, I've seen payback wins in hour championships when everyone around knew the dog was a PIG that day, etc. etc. ONLY judge I won't run under is the ONE that said, he placed a dog over mine one day because "the dog looked like it had feathers on its legs like a brit".

Run your dogs under everyone then you have the excuse for why your dog didn't win. You know, it is NEVER your own training or that you are a lousy handler, or that your dog is a pig, never ever is that!!

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:28 pm

The basic rule in many peoples mind is that good judges place my dog and poor ones don't.

I am surprised that so many don't realize all you are paying for in a trial is the judges opinion. You should already know how good your dog is before you enter.

Ezzy

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:36 pm

Ezzy I go to trials to see how our dogs stack up against the rest. You can think your dog is the best dog in the world but until you go beat someone then what you think is basically nonsense.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:08 pm

Don't forget about the guys who go their to title their dogs for breeding purposes.

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:16 pm

IMO at the very least you should make sure that the Judge is familiar with the venue and is fair and honest. Different judges have different interpretations of the standard that is part of the game. I know what I like in a dog and a judges opinion will not sway that because I don't do it for them. Some like em on the edge some don't and some should just stick to a venue that suits their personel taste.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:21 pm

nikegundog wrote:Don't forget about the guys who go their to title their dogs for breeding purposes.

Are you talking about judges???

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:27 pm

As hard as a Judge tries to be unbiased, if he/she has been a part of that club for 40+ years, and has made many good friends, being unbiased is almost impossible.

Our club tries to get "outside judges" , but the expense is great.(motels, gas food )

Just one more problem for a small club,

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:33 pm

I see several comments about expense. How much are we talking about here? Most judges I've seen run dogs and that puts some of the money back in the club.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:52 pm

bigsugar wrote:Ezzy I go to trials to see how our dogs stack up against the rest. You can think your dog is the best dog in the world but until you go beat someone then what you think is basically nonsense.

I believe you have already made it quite clear you only go to win and don't go if you don't think you can win under the judge. Thats quite different than going to see how you compare. Don't see how the two ideas with completely different purposes even co-exist. I do think you can go for whatever reason you want but not two reasons that are completely opposite.

Ezzy

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:31 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
nikegundog wrote:Don't forget about the guys who go their to title their dogs for breeding purposes.
Are you talking about judges???

Sorry I should of been more clear, I was responding to the comment about people going to a trial only to get an opinion from a judge about their dog. I know that some people trial for the sole purpose of receiving a title and some trial for enjoyment.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:51 pm

nikegundog wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
nikegundog wrote:Don't forget about the guys who go their to title their dogs for breeding purposes.
Are you talking about judges???
Sorry I should of been more clear, I was responding to the comment about people going to a trial only to get an opinion from a judge about their dog. I know that some people trial for the sole purpose of receiving a title and some trial for enjoyment.

Just for your future reference, the topic is about how to select judges that people want to show their dogs to, not about why they enter or what kind of dogs they have. Our club has no judges and no members who actively trial or test except me and I have to choose the judges for our field events.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:10 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:I see several comments about expense. How much are we talking about here? Most judges I've seen run dogs and that puts some of the money back in the club.

If the judge has to come from any distance, it is customary to pay for fuel and tolls. If the judge does not have a living quarters trailer it is customary for the club to provide sleeping accomodations at least for the days the person is judging. It is also customary to provide meals during the trial. Lodging in this area is at least fifty bucks a night and that is for a fleabag or at motel 6 type accomodations at best. For something like a Holiday Inn(which is OK but ain't fantastic), eighty bucks a night is about as low as you can get. Two judges for two nights at eighty bucks per room is $320 bucks. It adds up quick.

The fuel and tolls part used to be not such a big deal. It most certainly is a significant expense today. Crossing one bridge with a dual axle trailer can cost you $10-20 and the price ain't goin' down. Diesel is close to four bucks a gallon by me.

It costs me about $80 in gas and tolls to make the 200 mile round trip from my house in central Delaware to the English Setter Club in Medford, NJ if I travel the toll roads with my horse trailer. If I drive about forty some odd miles out of the way and drive through Philadelphia on the way home, I can avoid one bridge toll, but it is a big one and the price just jumped again. I may have to start doing that as much as I hate driving through the city.

I went to a trial in Connecticut two years ago with my trailer. The trip was a nightmare in terms of traffic and the cost in terms of fuel and(especially) tolls was beyond my wildest imaginings. The grounds were excellent, the folks were great, the competition was keen and we found a seafood restaurant that was awesome, but it will be a while before I go back there again.

RayG

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 3:45 pm

Thanks, Ray. We have a bunkhouse and provide food at the grounds and a real dinner first night of a two day. Gas is paid and other costs are contracted.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:21 pm

Cajun Casey wrote: Just for your future reference, the topic is about how to select judges that people want to show their dogs to, not about why they enter or what kind of dogs they have. Our club has no judges and no members who actively trial or test except me and I have to choose the judges for our field events.

Several people have mentioned they will run regardless of the judge, several people have stated that they won't go if they don't stand a chance to win. People who go to campaign their dogs rather than for enjoyment fit into that latter category. I was on topic as far as I'm concerned, if I wasn't there were many more people off topic than just me. Why people enter is relevant to the topic.

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:34 pm

nikegundog wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote: Just for your future reference, the topic is about how to select judges that people want to show their dogs to, not about why they enter or what kind of dogs they have. Our club has no judges and no members who actively trial or test except me and I have to choose the judges for our field events.
Several people have mentioned they will run regardless of the judge, several people have stated that they won't go if they don't stand a chance to win. People who go to campaign their dogs rather than for enjoyment fit into that latter category. I was on topic as far as I'm concerned, if I wasn't there were many more people off topic than just me. Why people enter is relevant to the topic.

nike I fail to see your point? Campaigning vs enjoyment??? WTH are u talking about.....

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:58 pm

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:
nikegundog wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote: Just for your future reference, the topic is about how to select judges that people want to show their dogs to, not about why they enter or what kind of dogs they have. Our club has no judges and no members who actively trial or test except me and I have to choose the judges for our field events.
Several people have mentioned they will run regardless of the judge, several people have stated that they won't go if they don't stand a chance to win. People who go to campaign their dogs rather than for enjoyment fit into that latter category. I was on topic as far as I'm concerned, if I wasn't there were many more people off topic than just me. Why people enter is relevant to the topic.

nike I fail to see your point? Campaigning vs enjoyment??? WTH are u talking about.....

Some people will put a title on their dog to sell pups, once they have titled that dog to what ever level they want, that dog will be put into there breeding program never to be ran again. On the other hand some people title there dog and continue to run it for enjoyment. I seen many people run hunt tests and achieve MH at a very young age and continue to run those same tests for years after they achieved that title. That was my point.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:05 pm

That still has nothing to do with selecting judges.

larue · Post by **larue** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:23 pm

another option is to fly in a judge,and provide them with a horse,etc.
I have flown out to Washington state twice to judge,around 400 round trip for tickets.
More clubs should look at this option.
It is fun to go judge dogs you no nothing about,and have never seen before.

Judging a trial is a thankless job,you only make one person happy and often make a bunch unhappy.
I truly believe in the vast majority of trials,the judges put up what they feel are the best dogs,and that is all you can ask
for.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:24 pm

Ya'll wait until the $5/gallon diesel comes along this year. Getting outside judges is gonna seem like a fairy tale.

Some judges will be pretty forgiving on their costs if they're running a dog. Other will be forgiving even if they aren't running a dog. And others aren't forgiving at all. Me? At the local stuff, you feed me, we're good. I'll donate the small amount of fuel, the horse and I'll sleep in my trailer. You call me and ask for me to drive 300 miles one way and I'm not running a dog...your in for fuel, and ya gotta feed me. I won't charge for the horse.

My guess is you'll start seeing $60 for an OGD/OAA stakes sometime this year.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:47 pm

I can contribute, since air travel was mentioned, that our club likes to get really spectacular judges for our Conformation Specialty and shaking folks down for FFMs and planning ahead really saves on that expense.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:04 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:I can contribute, since air travel was mentioned, that our club likes to get really spectacular judges for our Conformation Specialty and shaking folks down for FFMs and planning ahead really saves on that expense.

Now there is a tip that many clubs can use if they are putting on a top echelon trial and wish to fly in a judge.

Good one.

RayG