Puppy Stakes part II

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:07 am

Ok guys bear with me I am new to this trialing thing and my dog game experience is with HTs.

On the AKC events page the FT I am looking at is a 4day event. Looks like Sat -Tues, I have the time to take off but wasn't sure if I would need to for puppy stakes. Since my experience is HT where they essentially run 2days and 2 seperate tests, I am curious, Is it likely that the trial will last 4 days and will the one entry fee be good for all 4 days or will it be 4x the money?

Like I said I am new to this and trying to figure it out....

Jim

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:40 am

On the AKC site, you need to look at the trial details to see what stakes they're running. They make run an open puppy and amt. puppy, open derby and amt. derby, but each would have it's own entry fee, and many clubs do not run amt. juvenile stakes.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:48 am

they are only running open puppy and open derby as far as juvenile stakes, but with my 6mo old pup ill only be running open puppy. will my entry fee cover any braces he runs or will it be entry fee times number of braces per class?

the premiums havn't been sent out yet im just trying to wrap my head around this.

Sorry
Jim

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:53 am

You pay per stake you enter in. If you're only entering open puppy, you pay once, your dog runs only once and then you can either pack up and go home, or stick around and watch the rest of the trial and enjoy the festivities (which I highly recommend).

By the way, sometimes it's better to hold off on running young pups. Some may not agree, but depending on the size & socialization of your pup, and how much rough-housing he/she is used to, you might want to wait. Picture your 6 month old pup being bumped and rolled by a 14 month old pup twice his size. It can and does happen. Make sure your pup is hardy enough to bounce back from that.

We have pups that will hit 6 months old right as the season starts for us. We will be bringing them with us, getting them used to the horses, the stake outs, the other dogs, the excitement, and we'll put them on the ground after the day's running as much as we can so they're exposed to it all, but I don't want them being roughed up out there at such a young age, so we'll hold them out of puppy stakes until the fall.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:55 am

They will only run each stake once so the 50.00 will cover the stake.

Call the secretary or send him/her an email and ask for what day they will be running the stake you want to enter. The broke stakes can run more than one day and haven't seen that happen with juvenile stakes on any weekend trials.

Have fun!

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:59 am

Ditto on the entry, but call the trial secretary if you have any questions. If the club publishes that they are using Flexible Format, they can change the stake running order from what is advertised and you may show up on day one only to find your stake moved to the last day.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:25 am

Cajun Casey wrote:If the club publishes that they are using Flexible Format, they can change the stake running order from what is advertised and you may show up on day one only to find your stake moved to the last day.

Since AKC trials usually have thief puppy/Derby stake run on a seperate course than broke stakes, or before there are birds in the field....

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:31 am

ultracarry wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:If the club publishes that they are using Flexible Format, they can change the stake running order from what is advertised and you may show up on day one only to find your stake moved to the last day.
Since AKC trials usually have thief puppy/Derby stake run on a seperate course than broke stakes, or before there are birds in the field....

Not always. Some clubs like to see the puppies get into birds. Some even blank over the puppies. It will be on the premium if they will blank or not.

Doug

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:38 am

Last I checked, Derbies have to point, don't they? We run Puppies first, then Derbies on a separate course from broke dogs. Puppies don't get released birds, then the course is planted for the big kids. But, we're a Conformation club.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:48 am

Last I checked, which was last weekend at a trial I was at. They released birds for the puppies and we blanked over finds.

Some clubs do and some don't. Yes, derbies have to point. But most puppies can point too. They are bird dogs aren't they?

Doug

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:52 am

Sorry...

Puppy first on a seperate field with no birds, Derby on the same seperate field with birds. I should have not grouped them together.. I have also ran where they released birds in puppy courses but with my next dog I wouldn't run in them......

When clubs plant Derby and puppy courses then run adult stakes on the same course you have more finds closer to the horse track which would give some dogs finds without having to actually work. I hate seeing clubs do that......

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:05 am

What is the point of running a pup in a trial where there is no opportunity to find birds.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:10 am

ultracarry wrote:Sorry...

Puppy first on a seperate field with no birds, Derby on the same seperate field with birds. I should have not grouped them together.. I have also ran where they released birds in puppy courses but with my next dog I wouldn't run in them......

When clubs plant Derby and puppy courses then run adult stakes on the same course you have more finds closer to the horse track which would give some dogs finds without having to actually work. I hate seeing clubs do that......

I still don't understand why you wouldn't like to see pups in birds. Don't understand the birds being closer to the horsetrack either. If you have broke dogs runnin the track they're probably not gettin looked at anyway.

Doug

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:11 am

bigsugar wrote:What is the point of running a pup in a trial where there is no opportunity to find birds.

To see ground application, cooperation, handling...etc

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:38 am

Jim,
The easiest thing is to call or email the secretary or chairman and ask for any info you need. Tell him/Her that you'd like to run your puppy, and ask whether they are offering both open and amateur puppy. Then ask when they plan to run the stake or stakes. If it works for you, tell him that you'll be sending in your entry today (you can download the form from the akc site). Email him after several days to make sure your entry was received and that you haven't been closed out. Then after the drawing, call or email again to see if anything has changed (sometimes a stake is dropped if there aren't enough dogs entered to make at least one point, maybe stakes have had to be rearranged for other reasons, etc). You can also find out in which brace you're running.

You'll hear something like "puppies will be going first thing Saturday, and you are in the third brace. We start at 8 oclock".

You can do the math to figure out an approximate time that you'll be running, but remember that stuff happens and you should be there sooner than later. The club is under no obligation to wait beyond 5 minutes for you.

Also, if you don't know where the grounds are, get directions from the premium list or from the contact person you spoke to. Do not trust your gps to get you to the grounds unless you've confirmed with the contact person that it's reliable. Where our grounds are, gps has taken folks to washed out bridges, closed roads, muddy two tracks, and the way long way around. A lot of them were either late or very stressed out by the time they arrived.

Good luck and have fun

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:43 am

yes ...puppy stakes are for all of those things...
and they are designed as a "gateway" to field trialing...anybody with an akc registered pointing dog can enter the stake with virtually no training and watch their dog compete...the no birds and no shooting is specifically there because many times first time competitiors, show people and those who are just curious can have a venue for their pups to run that have not been introduced to the gun or the birds. Savvy judges and club members will embrace these folks and help them take the next step ... in this way we cultivate future trial people, baby steps at a time in a process that recognizes the sporting dog circumastances as they exist today. Regardless of what it means to those of us who are "over it" those $3 puppy ribbons can mean a great deal to someone starting out.

Puppy stakes are a great deal especially if there are a limited number of or better yet no naysayers around to urinate on them...pleasant folk that they are.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:56 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:Last I checked, which was last weekend at a trial I was at. They released birds for the puppies and we blanked over finds.

Some clubs do and some don't. Yes, derbies have to point. But most puppies can point too. They are bird dogs aren't they?

Doug

I don't have a problem with birds for Puppies. Geez, they can run up to 15 months old and they ought to be able to find a bird by then.

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:40 am

All the trials i went to last fall , the puppies either ran first thing in the am or the last event of the day. If they went out first, no birds. If they went at the end plenty of birds. Call the secretary closer to the event. The more dogs that are entered the better they will be able to let you know the day. You pay one fee. Once your dog runs they are done. Some will do placements after the event and others do placements at the end of the day at the dinner. Haven't found two that are the same yet. Guessing I won't either.

Joe

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:14 pm

Seems like a waste of money. You can find out all those things at home without the entry. As a matter of fact you should have a decent idea of what you have before you enter.

In aftca trials puppy stakes are virtually pointless. You don't get anything for a placement and it doesn't qualify you for anything. I guess we're just different in that we don't haul dogs and horses to a trial and pay entry fees and fuel to evaluate them. We do that at home.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:25 pm

Puppy stakes earn points in AKC and judges will often bring along pups to run for experience and to support the club. Honestly, I like having Puppy first thing, no birds, because it saves money and gives someone time to unhook the coffee IV from the bird planter.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:35 pm

bigsugar wrote:Seems like a waste of money. You can find out all those things at home without the entry. As a matter of fact you should have a decent idea of what you have before you enter.

In aftca trials puppy stakes are virtually pointless. You don't get anything for a placement and it doesn't qualify you for anything. I guess we're just different in that we don't haul dogs and horses to a trial and pay entry fees and fuel to evaluate them. We do that at home.

It's some of the best $45 dollars I've ever spent. Yes, you can find out all those things at home for free, but guess what, I like to have other people evaluate my dog to make sure I'm not just "seeing" things. Everyone thinks their dog is the best right?
In AKC you can carry 2 points toward your FC with wins in puppy stakes. I'll also bet that people who have horses don't spend all that money to run just a puppy stake.
Please see Chukar12's post about the other reasons why clubs have puppy stakes.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:42 pm

I would rather wait until the dog is older and has manners before having it Chase down bob white or chukar and bring them back to me. Also if the bracemate takes a bird out and they both start chasing then it opens up a contest between them and another thing you have to break before entering broke stakes.

I don't want to spend my time training at home to take 10 steps back just to run the dog for 15-20 minutes. Don't want to have a ranked Derby or puppy either. It's a good place to start and that's how I got started. But entering a dog into those stakes to rack up points for a yearly ranking is not good for the dog and can hurt it when you break it out.

Enter, win, get your points, get out.

The way I look at it is show up a day early, run the dog before the trial with no e collar and pick it up of it does something wrong. If you want to simulate a trial see if someone will run thief dog with you and give it expierence with consequences..... Just my .02

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:56 pm

Puppy stakes are a great place for new folks to get started. There isn't much pressure, they don't have to worry about having a green dog coming unglued, handling isn't critical, and there's not much they can to to interfere with their bracemate. Some folks don't have horses, multiple dogs or training partners, or great training grounds, so puppy stakes can serve to get the pup acquainted with the trial experience. The owner can see how his pup measures up to others and he can make some useful contacts. Pretty good deal!

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:09 pm

I will say this:

I have not run a dog in a puppy stake for several years now. However, I recently judged one and was reminded of just how much fun they can be. It was an absolute HOOT and I loved it.

Folks run their dogs in puppy stakes for a whole host of reasons.

While it may be possible for some to evaluate their dogs at home, it may be quite difficult for someone who does not own a horse and does not have access to a couple or three hundred acres of open ground, on which to perform such an evaluation.

It may be difficult, if not impossible, to approimate the level of excitement, the hubbub and uproar that a youngster...particularly an inexperienced youngster, will be exposed to at a trial. Unless you belong to a field trial club with multiple members, horses, rigs, etc. it may be impossible to "simulate" what goes on at a trial.

Last but not least... cutting your youngster loose and then just trying to hang on to them for the next twenty minutes or so, sans e-collar, sans checkcord...can be a very humbling experience.

But if you have a properly developed sense of humor it can also be some of the best fun you can have. Puppies can do no wrong and when you let them loose, those little suckers are liable to do just about anything. You never know what is going to happen, becasue the puppy has no clue either. If you are willing to laugh at yourself and what screwy things can happen, it can be GREAT fun.

As far as birds or no birds for puppies, my personal preference is for no birds. Less chance of your youngster learning some bad habits from its bracemate.

Since the standard of judgement for a puppy stake makes reference to the "seeking of game", not the "finding of game", there really is no need for birds to be planted for the stake. Heck, meadowlarks on course will provide all the "birdwork": that is needed in a puppy stake. I may be deluding myself, but I think I can tell if a puppy is actually hunting and not just bombing around.

But if you want to see your youngster bump and chase with abandon...go for it. That can be fun too.

RayG

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:48 pm

I have never understood the whole no birds for puppies thing. Our vizsla clubs always try and put out birds for the pups. We plant the same course - because that is all that we have. A Gund dog should be broke - no matter where the birds are. last I checked broke is broke. Not broken.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:49 pm

Good post ray.

I remember my dogs puppy stakes and brad27's early run... I can tell you the part about "hanging on" is true. Specially when a puppy is 500 yes to about a mile (in brads case). You know you have a fun time when the judge turns into a scout lol.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:53 pm

Buckeye_V wrote:I have never understood the whole no birds for puppies thing. Our vizsla clubs always try and put out birds for the pups. We plant the same course - because that is all that we have. A Gund dog should be broke - no matter where the birds are. last I checked broke is broke. Not broken.

Yea, reward the dogs that are on the horse track with multiple finds and the dogs that run an edge and outperform them outrun the plant. Good way to place dogs that can't find birds when the course is planted right.

Broken would be flat tailed dogs with their mouth open on point.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:11 pm

Would you expect your dog to point and hold birds in the parking lot or 2- track if you were hunting? Because where I grouse hunt - they are. Broke is broke brother. Those birds are probably more wild-like than the ones "planted" anyhow.

You can't control where the bleepin things go after you plant them, so does it really matter anyhow?

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:19 pm

You know you have a fun time when the judge turns into a scout lol.

I liked the trial where we get back to the start/finish and lucy does a 180 and decides she wants to go back out on course. I spent the next 10 minutes trying to catch her while the next brace of handlers and judges watched.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:24 pm

If you have good bird planters in a trial the dogs have to work to find them.... All I'm sayin. Good bird planters can figure out where the horse track is and not plant them close to it. An occasional bird close but not multiple. Never said a dog would break on them because they are close, even a blind squirl will find a nut occasionally.....

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:25 pm

brad27 wrote:
You know you have a fun time when the judge turns into a scout lol.
I liked the trial where we get back to the start/finish and lucy does a 180 and decides she wants to go back out on course. I spent the next 10 minutes trying to catch her while the next brace of handlers and judges watched.

Humility and humor...

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:36 pm

I know what a good bird planter is. I know what is ideal. I am just saying you can't always control the uncontrollable.

I was taken out MANY times by those silly birds who were where they weren't supposed to be. I was mad. Mad at myself for not training better.

I sat and judge a 30 dog stake and watched dog after dog blow up on chukar running in the 2-track and horse path. The cover was such that the birds preferred to be there. The dogs were running right over the top of these birds and they were busting in their face. I saw a LOT of really good dogs taken out. Hard to handle a bird popping in your face at full stride. I don't care what kind of dog it is.

When you get one that can handle that, I don't care if it's in the horse path or over the next ridge. Manners are manners.

We're not going to talk about what the dog does with it's application because i think we agree on what we are looking for.

Back to my original point. When I run puppies first and put out birds - I don't think about nor do I care about the amount of birds for gun dogs. They need to handle it.

Justin

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:42 pm

That sounds about right.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:47 pm

It was an absolute HOOT and I loved it.

I go ride them when I can for this reason right here...if you are in a bad mood and puppies don't improve it, well then you need an analyst's couch...

I also like to see what the puppies do before their "trainers" get ahold of them. Some of us get better and more critical of others the more we type...

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:14 pm

They're only fun to watch when they do the right things.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:21 pm

I typically don't run puppy stakes, I just personally don't see the point of running them in a bird dog testing/evaluating venue in the absence of birds. That said, and as mentioned, puppy stakes are a great intro to newcomers, a great way for pros to get owners all fired up about their prospect when they win a ribbon or two...really not alot negative to say about them other than really not a good evaluation of bird dogs IMO. Definitely no way in heck a dog should earn points towards a championship without demonstrating some sort of skill on birds - I'd vote to do away with awarding any points for puppy stakes...and derby for that matter. I'd prefer to see all points toward a championship come from the demonstration of finished dog work.

While I'm ranting, I won't just rant on AKC stuff - I can't for the life of me see how placements in an AF derby should qualify a dog for about any championship the owner/handler wants to run it in (some exceptions of course). It just makes more sense to me that to qualify for a broke dog AA/SD championship, a dog ought to have performed to that level in qualifying. That said, I'm of the opinion of giving the hosting clubs the options of dictating their own qualifying criteria for the championships they put on, including the option of no qualification required.

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:38 pm

Our club is running puppy last at an upcoming trialon the same course as the other stakes. After salting the course and planting birds gun dog and derbies for 2 days, I believe the good puppies will find birds. I also got an interesting comment from someone that thought puppy should be run 1st without birds because they had not trained their dogs on birds.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:52 pm

Who said they do not train their dog on birds?

larue · Post by **larue** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:34 am

There is a couple of good reasons to run puppy stakes without birds being planted.
The biggest reason is if you have a young dog who is progressing very nicely in steadiness work, you can run your pup in a trial,where it can experience all the
new things a trial brings,a new brace mate,a loud handler,a bunch of horses, etc, etc without the chance of having our steadiness work go backwards do to poor birds that can be caught by the pup.
In fact I took my young pup all the way out to hokes trial with that sole purpose in mind,to get her around new situations,without setting her steadiness work back.
Does running or winning a puppy stake mean much in the life of a dog? probably not,but it is another step in a life of a field trail dog
or it can be the beginning of a creating a trial dog or a person who runs trials.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:53 am

larue wrote:There is a couple of good reasons to run puppy stakes without birds being planted.
The biggest reason is if you have a young dog who is progressing very nicely in steadiness work, you can run your pup in a trial,where it can experience all the
new things a trial brings,a new brace mate,a loud handler,a bunch of horses, etc, etc without the chance of having our steadiness work go backwards do to poor birds that can be caught by the pup.
In fact I took my young pup all the way out to hokes trial with that sole purpose in mind,to get her around new situations,without setting her steadiness work back.
Does running or winning a puppy stake mean much in the life of a dog? probably not,but it is another step in a life of a field trail dog
or it can be the beginning of a creating a trial dog or a person who runs trials.

If you're breaking a pup at that age you probably deserve what you get.

larue · Post by **larue** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:34 am

so you are saying that a pup cannot be in training to be finished at 14 months of age? That you cannot have a naturally staunch pup who you are bringing along,who is well on its way to being broke at 12 or 14 months of age.A pup who you really dont want to catch a bunch of birds,in an uncontrolled situation?
well,, take a look at this clip,pup was under a year old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... zChnb-6dBI

or this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Pg8mxVteAU

two different littermates,both 11 months of age in the clips

Both of these pups could use trial experience,and I took hope to Washington state and ran her in the puppy stake,she did not place,but I got done what I wanted to,to have her see new country,be in a pro's string,just get used to the whole experience.
As far as range,these pups have to be reeled in all the time,I would hate to see what they would be like if I had done less training with them.

doco · Post by **doco** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:13 am

Lots of flavors on this thread........I have to get to the office, but I have a lot of Ice Cream Churning so when it's done I'll have a few comments as well.

Stay Tuned,

Doc

doco · Post by **doco** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:21 am

Here's a quick one in my reply to someone who judged my pups in October..........I like some of my ice cream a little melted.

"They have been a lot of fun. I come home every weekend tired, smiling, and hoarse. I forgot how much work it was to hang on to puppies. After running them I am drained. I judged on Fri. from 8AM until 6PM and I was not nearly as drained as I was after handling those two. I'm just glad that I ran the other in Derby the day before. I have had some great people, including you guys, help me along the way. All I can say is that it is nice to see some younger blood in the sport keeping it fun, friendly, fair, and alive."

KInd of what Ray G. was saying as well as the Pro-Puppy trial folks.

Doc

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:47 am

The least fun I have had is running a puppy stake with no birds. The most fun I have had is running a puppy stake with birds. That said I fully understand not too many birds for pups..... But it was fun giving the pups the oppurtunity to show their God given talent.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:51 am

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
larue wrote:There is a couple of good reasons to run puppy stakes without birds being planted.
The biggest reason is if you have a young dog who is progressing very nicely in steadiness work, you can run your pup in a trial,where it can experience all the
new things a trial brings,a new brace mate,a loud handler,a bunch of horses, etc, etc without the chance of having our steadiness work go backwards do to poor birds that can be caught by the pup.
In fact I took my young pup all the way out to hokes trial with that sole purpose in mind,to get her around new situations,without setting her steadiness work back.
Does running or winning a puppy stake mean much in the life of a dog? probably not,but it is another step in a life of a field trail dog
or it can be the beginning of a creating a trial dog or a person who runs trials.
If you're breaking a pup at that age you probably deserve what you get.

Rickyticky -

I acknowledge that eveyone does it a little different, but that last comment was uncalled for.

I have steadied my last FIVE dogs at under a year of age and they were all reliably broke by the age of 14-15 months of age. Each and every one of them has adult placements in both AKC and AF. One of them, actually one of the ones that broke out the easiest, at about the age of nine months, is an AKC FC. That is a longtail(pointer) that won all her Ch points as an adult, in broke dog stakes...and won them in GSP trials...all in Open All Age stakes.

I think you know that for a longtail to take first place at a GSP trial, especially an open all age stake, the dog has not just to beat the field. It has to beat the field ..HARD. She did that five times. Try getting an AF championship on one of your shorthairs and when you do, you can tell me about it and you will most assuredly have my full attention.

It is no real trick to get a dog steady to wing and shot, when the dog tells you it is ready. The real trick is for the handler to read their dog and to understand what the dog is telling you.

You don't do it that way obviously, but that does not mean your way is the only way.

Depending how they are bred and brought along...some dogs are ready to be steadied at a very early age.

RayG

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:05 am

Ray the problem I see is that breaking them before they learn to go find birds on their own can be a problem sometimes.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:16 am

bigsugar wrote:Ray the problem I see is that breaking them before they learn to go find birds on their own can be a problem sometimes.

Andy -

No argument there. It most certainly can result in problems.

However, allowing a puppy to bump and chase can result in some training challenges as well...just different ones.

No matter which way one proceeds, there ain't no free lunch. There will always be training challenges, and which ones you come up against depend a lot on how you go about the training.

Obviously, much of the way we each of us goes about training our dogs depends on the situation we find ourselves in.

RayG

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:27 am

bigsugar wrote:Ray the problem I see is that breaking them before they learn to go find birds on their own can be a problem sometimes.

No one said the dogs are put up and can never find a bird until they are broke. I'm sure they have a lot of bird exposure but will surely not catch or encouraged to Chase and catch.

Broke mine out at 13 months and finished within the next 5.. didn't hurt her bird finding ability at all.

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:52 am

One of the best known, if not THE best known trainers, of our time ALWAYS gets visibly upset if a club does not plant birds for their puppy stakes. I understand that we are judging potential as field trial prospects and a huge part of that SHOULD BE bird finding. However, the rules are clear, judges are not to consider bird work when judging puppies. Makes it tough on the dogs if birds are planted IF you choose to judge by the rules. A dog goes on point and looks like a million dollars, that is typically going to alter your view of the dog overall. What if the dog is a pig but points like a million? Some might use the dog because "well he found a bird". Inexperienced judge and not what the stake is supposed to show. But, why not?? Reality is that often a really nice dog is rolling for the first five minutes, hitting objectives, using the wind, punching the horizon, he finds a bird, bird flies backward, he chases and is lost for the next 8 minutes, then what do you do? What if he chases and is lost for the rest of the stake? Can't use him. He might have been the best dog, but we don't know. Derby gives the young dogs, with a little more handle, to show their bird finding ability, their pointing style, and the other attributes that will show their potential as all age or gun dog competitors.

The rules are clear, maybe the rules should be changed. With derby stakes available for dogs between 6 months and 2 years, I tend to believe we leave puppy rules static and do not put birds out for the puppies, who typically are somewhat out of control lunatics who are running and hunting purely because of their genetics. I like it that way!!

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:52 am

RayGubernat wrote:
Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:
larue wrote:There is a couple of good reasons to run puppy stakes without birds being planted.
The biggest reason is if you have a young dog who is progressing very nicely in steadiness work, you can run your pup in a trial,where it can experience all the
new things a trial brings,a new brace mate,a loud handler,a bunch of horses, etc, etc without the chance of having our steadiness work go backwards do to poor birds that can be caught by the pup.
In fact I took my young pup all the way out to hokes trial with that sole purpose in mind,to get her around new situations,without setting her steadiness work back.
Does running or winning a puppy stake mean much in the life of a dog? probably not,but it is another step in a life of a field trail dog
or it can be the beginning of a creating a trial dog or a person who runs trials.
If you're breaking a pup at that age you probably deserve what you get.

Rickyticky -

I acknowledge that eveyone does it a little different, but that last comment was uncalled for.

I have steadied my last FIVE dogs at under a year of age and they were all reliably broke by the age of 14-15 months of age. Each and every one of them has adult placements in both AKC and AF. One of them, actually one of the ones that broke out the easiest, at about the age of nine months, is an AKC FC. That is a longtail(pointer) that won all her Ch points as an adult, in broke dog stakes...and won them in GSP trials...all in Open All Age stakes.

I think you know that for a longtail to take first place at a GSP trial, especially an open all age stake, the dog has not just to beat the field. It has to beat the field ..HARD. She did that five times. Try getting an AF championship on one of your shorthairs and when you do, you can tell me about it and you will most assuredly have my full attention.

It is no real trick to get a dog steady to wing and shot, when the dog tells you it is ready. The real trick is for the handler to read their dog and to understand what the dog is telling you.

You don't do it that way obviously, but that does not mean your way is the only way.

Depending how they are bred and brought along...some dogs are ready to be steadied at a very early age.

RayG

Ray~Sorry if I hurt your feelings or whatever. I didn't mean to. I think we all know that breaking a pointer at a young age is usually different than a GSP. The pups that Dennis has are the exception for a GSP at that age.

As far as the Pointer beating the GSP's, I would say it's easier for your pointers to beat GSPs in AKC than it is for a GSP to beat a pointer at a AF trial.

And I didn't say my way was the only way. Not sure where you got that, so don't put words in my mouth. And please don't talk down to me as if I were one of your kids. Thank you.

Doug