Puppy Stakes part II

[trueblu]

Of course, you can break pointers at 12 months. They are usually 3-4 years old when they are that age!! SORRY but I had to say it.

Ray Dohse breaks most all dogs very young and his dogs prove that it is more about how than when.

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

so you are saying that a pup cannot be in training to be finished at 14 months of age? That you cannot have a naturally staunch pup who you are bringing along,who is well on its way to being broke at 12 or 14 months of age.A pup who you really dont want to catch a bunch of birds,in an uncontrolled situation?
well,, take a look at this clip,pup was under a year old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... zChnb-6dBI

or this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Pg8mxVteAU

two different littermates,both 11 months of age in the clips

Both of these pups could use trial experience,and I took hope to Washington state and ran her in the puppy stake,she did not place,but I got done what I wanted to,to have her see new country,be in a pro's string,just get used to the whole experience.
As far as range,these pups have to be reeled in all the time,I would hate to see what they would be like if I had done less training with them.

No Dennis, that's not what I'm saying. Most GSPs the age of the ones in your vids would shut down and start to go south with a lot of pressure. Yours are the exception, not the norm. I've always just erred on the side of caution. What's the big hurry to get them steady/broke? If you're gonna break them at that age, then by all means I wouldn't run them in puppy or derby. Just too much of a chance for their bracemate or bad birds to set them back.

The ones that run huge probably do need to have some manners earlier than others. That's where the trainer needs to be able to read the dog. A lot of people on this board don't have the experience or talent to break a dog at that early of an age. I'm glad that you do. They are nice dogs. Good luck with them in the future.

Doug

[markj]

OK so I got a pup going to turn one the 19th, should I consider running her in a AKC puppy trial? she is gsp.

What all is involved? do i need a horse for this? then onto the derby where they get to find and point a bird, is there a shot fired after the find? and do I need a horse for this as well?

I need to join the GSPCA to run trials? in the AKC trials at branched oaks and other places?


These questions are the ones i have, could someone fill me in on this? I sure do see a lot of potential in this one.
Do I need a pro to run her later on for any hope of a AKC FC title? or can I do this as an amature? I know about the AFC title and if I go that route will it count towards a dual if she does a bench too? or does it have to be a FC title?

Rookie questions like these are ones a lot of folks may have.

[trueblu]

You don't need a horse, but you need a horse. Rules say you can walk, but at some point you will need to ride. In theory you can walk your dog to a FC or AFC title, but I've never seen anyone do it. There are walking trials and you are allowed to walk at all AKC events, but it's tough.

An AFC does not help you to a DC title, dog has to be a bench champion and a FC to be a dual.

You do NOT need a pro. I have finished two of my own, put majors on others dogs, and over 100 placements on my own dogs. Just got to have good dogs.

[dan v]

An AFC does not help you to a DC title, dog has to be a bench champion and a FC to be a dual.

It in fact it does.....as 4 of the AFC points can be used towards the FC....a minor distinction however.

[markj]

Great answers, I see the nebr club is still meeting on monday nites so I cant make them due to a young lad and school. Do you need to belong to the gsp club to run? dues are only like 20.00 I think.

[jcbuttry8]

Depends on what you plan to run at the AKC trial.

If it is an amateur walking pup or derby then both of the handlers will be on foot and the judges normally ride. if the judges walk everybody walks, even the gallery. These are the events that will earn you your AFC title. Hence, Amateur.

For the FC, Those will be listed as Open events. They are usually horseback. I started the first event with Kona in an open. Believe she ran with Doco's pup that day. She wouldn't leave the horse. She tried to figure out a way to get up with me. Just couldn't figure out how I got up there. The next two I walked and the brace mate rode. I don't recommend, but if you choose to, wear comfortable shoes and be ready to move quickly for 15 to 20 min. Once, she got used to the horses, it has been a blast. Now, it takes a horse to keep up with her.

Every trial I have been to so far (AKC wise) has had a wrangler. They normally let you rent a horse for $10 a brace. Be aware though, that most of these horses range from a bucket of glue to some pretty great horses. It can make 15 minutes seem like 40 when trying to run an dog and deal with a horse that didn't want to leave the trailer. In some cases, you just get what you pay for.

My advise, go to every trial you can get to. It is a great time and you will meet some great people that will coach you along the way. The most important thing to remember is the only expectation to have is that your dog will run. Do not for a second think that your pup will act the way it does when out training. It is a whole new world with some great things to check out, and it generally isn't the bushes. If it's the pups first time around horses, take the pup over and let him/her check it out, and be prepared, horse poop turns out to be a really great lunch for a pup. My 11 year old daughter has really gotten into it and the people we run into at these events are generally the reason for that. Hat's off to RayG for his help. Now, I don't know who gets more excited when the muck boots come out Kona or my little girl.

Find a club near you and join. I did it at the English Setter Club and it has made all the difference in the world. Lot of great experience at the clubs. you will learn alot and find some great people to run and train with. Your pup will absolutely benefit from both.


Just remember, puppies do no wrong, Period. keep a box of milk bones in the car. Nothing says great job like a milk bone and a bottle of water after an event.

Good luck and have fun,
Joe

[deseeker]

Great answers, I see the nebr club is still meeting on monday nites so I cant make them due to a young lad and school. Do you need to belong to the gsp club to run? dues are only like 20.00 I think.

You don't need to be a club member to run in them---just have the dog registered with AKC if you run in an AKC trial. I used to run in NE gsp trials(with brits) and wasn't a club member. Good luck

[RayGubernat]

[quote="Ricky Ticky Shorthairs

Ray~Sorry if I hurt your feelings or whatever. I didn't mean to. I think we all know that breaking a pointer at a young age is usually different than a GSP. The pups that Dennis has are the exception for a GSP at that age.

As far as the Pointer beating the GSP's, I would say it's easier for your pointers to beat GSPs in AKC than it is for a GSP to beat a pointer at a AF trial.

And I didn't say my way was the only way. Not sure where you got that, so don't put words in my mouth. And please don't talk down to me as if I were one of your kids. Thank you.

Doug[/quote]


No worries - It takes a whole lot more than that to hurt my feelings. I don't know about Dennis' GSP's being exceptional as far as breaking out early. Where I trial, there are quite a few very nice shoirthairs and most of them break out fairly early. Lots and lots of dead broke derbies and I know for a fact that some of them were broke as puppies, just not dead broke.

You are correct in that you did not say your way was the only way. My apologies.

However, you most certainly came across, loud and clear, as if breaking out a dog early was wrong...and it most certainly IS NOT. In fact, if a dog is ready to be broke and you do not...you are asking for a whole bunch of different problems. it is waaaay more about how than when.

Lastly...no one likes to be talked down to. To use your own words: "you probably deserve what you get."

If you don't like it, perhaps you should refrain from doing it to others. Just a thought.

RayG

[RayGubernat]

Great answers, I see the nebr club is still meeting on monday nites so I cant make them due to a young lad and school. Do you need to belong to the gsp club to run? dues are only like 20.00 I think.

Mark -

As stated, you do not need to be a member, but if you join up and volunteer to help, a whole world of opportunities might just open up for you. Most clubs are desperate for good help and will do whatever they can to keep folks coming back, especially if they are willing to work. There are never enough hands, before, during and after a trial.

As an example, I did not have a horse when I started out, but since I was always willing to pitch in, I never wanted for a ride. When I was getting started, that was HUGE to me, but no big deal to the folks that had two or three horses. Most were absolutely thrilled to hand me the reins along with the bird bag.

Also, being willing to help got me some one one one time with several accomplished trainers, both amateur and pro. I learned a whole lot in a fairly short period of time because of it. When you stick around after the trial is over to help sweep out and swab down the clubhouse, take out the trash, stack up the chairs and tables, etc...the trial chairman and the field trial committee remembers who you are...believe it.

RayG

[Chukar12]

Mark those are all great questions...I had all of those and a lot more just 2 and a half years ago...the second trial I went to I received an e mail from the secretary prior to the event telling me the derby would be following the "allage" Of course, she meant the all age, however, I still spent ample time on my computer trying to figure out what an "allage" was.

To me the new part and the unknown was the best...I had butterfly's to beat the band. I did find as Ray mentioned, that my early rising and willingness to plant birds, fill water barrels, empty trash, etc... Got me in a lot of conversations and helped me get along....I wouldn't trade the ride so far.

[Karen]

To me the new part and the unknown was the best...I had butterfly's to beat the band. I did find as Ray mentioned, that my early rising and willingness to plant birds, fill water barrels, empty trash, etc... Got me in a lot of conversations and helped me get along....I wouldn't trade the ride so far.

He says just a short month (or so) after handling his dog to a National championship

[bigoak]

I finished two dogs as Nat.Amateur Champs in the late 1980's early 1990's. We didn't own any horse's.I rode wrangler horse's for almost 30 year.If you didn't get the right horse,It could be alot of fun!I would say in this day and age,It would be tough to walk and win at a horseback stake....vern

[AHGSP]

No Dennis, that's not what I'm saying. Most GSPs the age of the ones in your vids would shut down and start to go south with a lot of pressure. Yours are the exception, not the norm. I've always just erred on the side of caution. What's the big hurry to get them steady/broke? If you're gonna break them at that age, then by all means I wouldn't run them in puppy or derby. Just too much of a chance for their bracemate or bad birds to set them back.

The ones that run huge probably do need to have some manners earlier than others. That's where the trainer needs to be able to read the dog. A lot of people on this board don't have the experience or talent to break a dog at that early of an age. I'm glad that you do. They are nice dogs. Good luck with them in the future.

Doug

Gotta disagree with you Doug. As Blake said, it's not about the when, but rather the how that you break them out. Breaking doesn't require pressure, if brought along properly without creating bad habits to begin with along the way and I don't believe that Dennis' pups are the exception in the least. In Dennis video; Do those pups look like they're exhibiting any signs of pressure at all? I don't know how Dennis breaks, but I'd say his method is fair and just to his dogs, by the looks of how those pups are handling the situation. They are high, confident and comfortable with the job they are doing and in the manner they are being asked to perform it. They likely didn't need any pressure to get there, because they were likely never allowed to chase and catch poor flying birds, or develop other bad habits; as evidenced by the fact they remained standing through the temptation of the birds stumbling around them before leaving and never letting down.
Thus the point of no birds in Puppy Stakes, IMO. Why allow a bad habit to be created by an unfair situation for the pup, where you have no control over the outcome of the pup chasing and catching in a Trial?

While Puppy Stakes with birds can be a hoot to watch, so can JH and it is often heard lamented in both cases, about the bad habits created in just a few runs on poor flying planted Quail.

[doco]

I tend to believe we leave puppy rules static and do not put birds out for the puppies, who typically are somewhat out of control lunatics who are running and hunting purely because of their genetics. I like it that way!!

I agree with TB. Leave it alone. The puppy stakes are the draw for the future of the sport. I feel that a clean course w/o birds for puppies is definitely the way to go. More things will go wrong with puppies that will set you back 10 fold if the situation is not controlled. Most of us are giving the dog birdwork at home, so the hunt for birds should be in these puppies. The experience for the newbies, puppies around horses, and the nervousness in all can only be lessened with experience. If there are only broke stakes, that will be the quickest demise to the game. No puppies, no potentials, and worst of all No New People. It is still your choice whether or not to run your dogs in any stake, but we still need to leave the door open and welcoming. Think it doesn't set the hook, ask jcbuttry. My first trial was 3 years ago with 2 dogs, in 8 events I came home with 5 ribbons. Now 2 FC's, 3 puppies, 2 horses, 2500HD, no money, and can't wait to go to Booneville next month as an amateur due to the help I've received all along the way!

More to Come

[dan v]

To me the new part and the unknown was the best...I had butterfly's to beat the band. I did find as Ray mentioned, that my early rising and willingness to plant birds, fill water barrels, empty trash, etc... Got me in a lot of conversations and helped me get along....I wouldn't trade the ride so far.

He says just a short month (or so) after handling his dog to a National championship

Ain't that right Karen. Success has a way to keep the "glass half full.".......lucky (insert appropriate expletive deleted here)

[DGFavor]

I agree with TB. Leave it alone.

Sounds good to me...well except for continuing to award championship points.

[larue]

first off,a clarification.My buddy Mike Kindler is actually breaking the girls out for me as a personal favor.He broke max out at 13 months of age,and I had 10 years of running broke stakes with max,so I asked him to help me with the girls.
My only real point was that by having no birds in a puppy stake,you could run your pup and get all the benefits from the trial experience without the worry of your dog ripping birds out of sight.
I posted the clips because of the strong statement about not being able to break a pup out young.

[jcbuttry8]

I've been running puppy stakes lately and will continue this spring. And yes as Doco says puppies is a great way to get you hooked and your better half upset. She now knows there is a whole lot more to come. I do prefer to run without birds. My pup is now getting heavy into controlled bird work. I would prefer to see her not chase during the pups. She is not one to grab a bird. She prefers to stand over them and look at me like move it fatty, i don't want that bird in my mouth. She wants nothing to do with putting it in her mouth but she has a lot of drive. There is something about a bird in flight that makes her go deaf to the whistle. She is almost sure she can catch them all, but I will run her until she points out no matter birds or not. Then it will only be Derbies until she is broke.

Keep the puppies. It will only worsen the crop of newbies to get rid of it. I go all day. We run 15 min, but the hanging out waiting for that 15 min of fun is where it is at. You make some great connections and it will keep you coming back.

Joe

[Sharon]

so you are saying that a pup cannot be in training to be finished at 14 months of age? That you cannot have a naturally staunch pup who you are bringing along,who is well on its way to being broke at 12 or 14 months of age.A pup who you really dont want to catch a bunch of birds,in an uncontrolled situation?
well,, take a look at this clip,pup was under a year old

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... zChnb-6dBI

or this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Pg8mxVteAU

two different littermates,both 11 months of age in the clips

Both of these pups could use trial experience,and I took hope to Washington state and ran her in the puppy stake,she did not place,but I got done what I wanted to,to have her see new country,be in a pro's string,just get used to the whole experience.
As far as range,these pups have to be reeled in all the time,I would hate to see what they would be like if I had done less training with them.

Exactly. Good video. I could put up a pic of one of my dogs broke at 10 months. Nopressure just a fast learner. Everyone one else was ticked off that i didn't go in the derby stake.





The age gap is huge in AF puppy and derby.

http://www.12oclockftc.com/images/trialdogagechart.pdf

[ultracarry]

I sent in entries last year for puppy, Derby, open gun dog and amature gun dog... Only person that got mad was the trial secretary. I was braced in amature first then immediately over to Derby ( picked ne up from the finish in open and drove me to Derby) then I was the first or second brace of puppy ( 30 min break). The next day was open gun dog.

Only came home with two ribbons but that ended the puppy Derby.... With a broke dog.

[trueblu]

ultra, I think it's funny the secretary got mad that you were such a jerk to have so many entries!! yes, it means working harder, moving folks around, but it adds money to the event, where most events have a hard time breaking even.

doco, we'll have to get together if you are at Nationals for the amateur.

Doug, as you know, puppy only gives a dog a max of 2 points. Puppy and derby don't do much for most dogs toward their FC title. Good dogs will finish no matter if they received juvenile points. Lukewarm dogs will always be the yellow and white ribbon dogs. Puppy stakes allow folks with one or two dogs that are young to get involved and will often hook them. At this point, trialing needs all the hooks it can get!!!

[doco]

doco, we'll have to get together if you are at Nationals for the amateur.

Doug, as you know, puppy only gives a dog a max of 2 points. Puppy and derby don't do much for most dogs toward their FC title. Good dogs will finish no matter if they received juvenile points. Lukewarm dogs will always be the yellow and white ribbon dogs. Puppy stakes allow folks with one or two dogs that are young to get involved and will often hook them. At this point, trialing needs all the hooks it can get!!!

Absolutey TB. PM me with a phone # and we'll make contact before then. I'm planning of staying both weeks.

DG, puppy and derby points certainly help me out. I'm a minimum of 6 hours to the closest trial so they are at a premium for me. I'd much rather be running in the AF with what I have, but they're not even a reasonable amount of distance for me to make. On the East Coast all we have is the Reg II and hopefully a Reg I Classic this year. I 'm sure that your well aware that with the GSP's we have to get the Ret points and Majors as well and again, if I only make 3-4 in the Spring and the same in the fall, finishing my dogs in only a few trials each season is quite a bit harder. But Heck I train harder than a SOB to get it done, so I take those points and I'm out. I certainly ain't looking for the easy way out. I would much rather be able to run every weekend. It would certainly be cheaper for me that the fuel costs.

Doc