Blue weimaraners

Quinton Tanner · Post by **Quinton Tanner** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:07 pm

I was surprised to hear all the negative and prejudice slander against Blue Weimaraners recently while trying to find a stud. Being a hunting dog owner for years and strictly a Lab owner I was sure there wasn't another breed that could hunt as masterfully....then I bought Bella a Blue, (because I had seen one years ago and thought it was a beautiful animal). She was such a good hunter from the first time I took her out, she brought a ruffled grouse back to me that was twice her size and then there was the first time I took her to the field and it was snow and ice and cold as the "bleep", another hunter approached my hunting partner because he had a Lab, as a matter of fact he didn't even look at my Bella, and asked if he would send her across a slough to retrieve a pheasant that his two Brits wouldn't get. My partners regular hunting dog a German Shorthair was under the weather so he had brought the Lab which was not a good retriever and told the fellow so, at any rate after several attempts she just wouldn't bring the bird back. I asked if I could send my dog across and because it was her first time out all parties concerned thought good luck! I was a proud Blue owner from that moment on as she went straight across the slough and back, brought the bird to me with no hesitation and sat waiting for her next command.

I was told it was unethical to breed my dog. I wonder was there ever this much prejudice against different colors of Labs? I can't help but feel that too much childish and foolish behavior so readily determines someones ideas of what determines a good dog. If a owner cannot train a dog because of its color is it really the dogs fault? Should all Pitbulls be destroyed because a few people have tainted the breed with unethical training? That is the true meaning of unethical in my opinion! I have have never ran across this attitude before and I will distance myself from the Weimaraner Club of America from now on.

Quinton Tanner

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:53 pm

Hold onto your seat Quinton...... it's going to be a bumpy ride.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:56 pm

hope this helps.
http://www.akc.org/breeds/weimaraner/

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:59 pm

Blue is a DQ in the show ring.

Is it associated with an outcross to another breed?

Greg J.

EDIT: I found something: http://justweimaraners.com/2010/09/gene ... imaraners/ .

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:27 pm

There is this much prejudice against sliver labs (lab x weim) right now.

So are you a fan if weims in general or just the blue ones? Do the blue ones make better hunters in your opinion?

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:30 pm

Couldn't care less if you breed them but has the dog proven itself in HT or FT or any events? Too many people breed dogs that have done nothing but impress them. Doesn't mean that your dog isn't special to you or your family and group of friends but what about all of the puppys that you will be placing? Will they be going to homes that know about strong prey drive and the need to expel energy or are they caught up in blue and the dog will go to the shelter when they can't handle their blue beautiful dog that constantly needs to expel energy.

There are colors that come up from reputable breeders from time to time and you will not see those dogs in the field or home.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:31 pm

Quinton Tanner wrote: I was told it was unethical to breed my dog. I wonder was there ever this much prejudice against different colors of Labs? I can't help but feel that too much childish and foolish behavior so readily determines someones ideas of what determines a good dog. If a owner cannot train a dog because of its color is it really the dogs fault? Should all Pitbulls be destroyed because a few people have tainted the breed with unethical training? That is the true meaning of unethical in my opinion! I have have never ran across this attitude before and I will distance myself from the Weimaraner Club of America from now on.

Quinton Tanner

Yes, there is just as much prejudice against Silver Labs. IMO it is unethical to breed merely for color.

Post by **topher40** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:40 pm

I know I shouldn't take the bait but here it goes.

As an owner/breeder of "white dogs" I wouldn't even consider a liver and white dog. They dont do it for me, no matter how nice. I haven't ever owned a LV/WH dog and never will. So why does it matter if you breed for color? It matters to the culls that would inevitably come out of a litter with a pre-disposition to throwing liver dogs in my case. If I whelped a blue wiem it would be direr consequences for that dog, considering I breed pointers!

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:09 pm

ultracarry wrote:Couldn't care less if you breed them but has the dog proven itself in HT or FT or any events? Too many people breed dogs that have done nothing but impress them. Doesn't mean that your dog isn't special to you or your family and group of friends but what about all of the puppys that you will be placing? Will they be going to homes that know about strong prey drive and the need to expel energy or are they caught up in blue and the dog will go to the shelter when they can't handle their blue beautiful dog that constantly needs to expel energy.

There are colors that come up from reputable breeders from time to time and you will not see those dogs in the field or home.

This from a young man that thinks a title is more important than you knowing how good your dog is in every way.

Couldn't care less if you breed them but has the dog proven itself in HT or FT or any events? Too many people breed dogs that have done nothing but impress them.

Think this says it all. Doesn't care if a dog that is DQ'd because of crossbreeding is bred or not. I can't think of any other excuse for breeding other than having a dog or dogs that impress you.

Or am I misreading what you posted?

Ezzy

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:11 pm

nikegundog wrote:
Quinton Tanner wrote: I was told it was unethical to breed my dog. I wonder was there ever this much prejudice against different colors of Labs? I can't help but feel that too much childish and foolish behavior so readily determines someones ideas of what determines a good dog. If a owner cannot train a dog because of its color is it really the dogs fault? Should all Pitbulls be destroyed because a few people have tainted the breed with unethical training? That is the true meaning of unethical in my opinion! I have have never ran across this attitude before and I will distance myself from the Weimaraner Club of America from now on.

Quinton Tanner
Yes, there is just as much prejudice against Silver Labs. IMO it is unethical to breed merely for color.

Agreed, just as it is unethical to breed while ignoring color.

Ezzy

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:05 pm

Ezzy I get your opinion is coming from an old man with un-titled dogs... except for maybe a JH. Does that make a dog worthy to be bred when its out of standards like a bad bite?

Sorry ill edit this to address the "couldn't care less".

I don't own weims or care about the color of them. Ezzy read the link posted by Greg and you will see the color gene explanation. I couldn't care less if he breeds the dog just like I couldn't care less about people breeding other dogs. I'm not going to have to go to sleep knowing I put a dog on this earth that someone will ditch, shoot, or put in a kill shelter. its not me and ill apologize to you for not caring about that or your "corn in food" argument.

Ezzy ill send you a check for three birds on the next preserve shoot you do out there if you can find where I stated that titles are everything that mattered in a dog. What it is though is a good way for someone to know what they are getting into and it shouldn't be too much of a surprise.

.. may need to start buying some higher scrip glasses because you aren't reading what's going on the board.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:25 pm

ultracarry wrote:Ezzy I get your opinion is coming from an old man with un-titled dogs... except for maybe a JH. Does that make a dog worthy to be bred when its out of standards like a bad bite?

Nope, any disqualification or severe fault should take it out of the breeding pool whether it has a title or not. Guess where we differ is you are saying a person can be impressed with a dog that has physical faults but if it has titles it is ok. And it may just be that I am too old and have some untitled dogs but you were young and also had an untitled dog till it finished. And your dog was just as good before it titled as it was afterwards. And in either case if it fits in the breed standard it is a good dog. The title did not make it better but I admit it is a handy tool for dogs you haven't seen work. But the neighbors dog without a title may be just as good or better and if I have a chance to see them both the title has nothing to do with which is the better dog. What the dog abilities along with its pedigree tells me what dog to breed to.

I had and bred some titled dogs but I also know most weren't as good as what I have today. But sorry I am not in a position and probably have lost a great deal of interest in spending the time amd money to get those titles and not that the dogs couldn't cut it. And then again they might not but what they do have makes them about as good as any I have seen.

Wish you hadn't pointed out that I am old and losing my mind but what you forget is I used to be just as young and smart as you before I got older and learned how little I really knew. :roll:
Ezzy

Fireside · Post by **Fireside** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:30 pm

I have a great idea... let;s do away with all the AKC breed clubs that have a standard...we don;t need no stinking standards... we can breed anything we darn well please! As a matter of fact, lets charge more for these MUTTS since they are RARE!!!

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:36 pm

Fireside wrote:I have a great idea... let;s do away with all the AKC breed clubs that have a standard...we don;t need no stinking standards... we can breed anything we darn well please! As a matter of fact, lets charge more for these MUTTS since they are RARE!!!

Someone finally got it and understands what we need to do to get rid of all our silly hangups. Pitnanys is where I am going to start or maybe a Shortnay.

Ezzy

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:38 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Fireside wrote:I have a great idea... let;s do away with all the AKC breed clubs that have a standard...we don;t need no stinking standards... we can breed anything we darn well please! As a matter of fact, lets charge more for these MUTTS since they are RARE!!!

Someone finally got it and understands what we need to do to get rid of all our silly hangups. Pitnanys is where I am going to start or maybe a Shortnay.

Ezzy

Start with a point lab.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:46 pm

So long hair weims are not recognized by AKC? Does the German Club accept them?

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:55 pm

Ezzy I don't think you get it with the whole same dog.

You can have two dogs with the exact same abilities before training. That's where you are correct. Where you are not correct is that you will not have the same dogs after training. Their abilities have turned into a individual product with specific limitations. The training weeds out those who could not handle training or do not become the finished product with the same attributes you saw before they began their transformation.

There are SH dogs that will never be able to handle the pressure as a fully broke dog. There are dogs that will take to training with others that seem identical and when you put pressure on them they fold. There is a huge reason why you shouldn't breed the dog unless you have tested them (in every aspect).

As for blue, people will do it and make a buck so who cares (besides the weim clubs) and breed enthusiasts.

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:42 pm

Quinton, ultracarry makes some very good points, a few other things to consider before you breed your dog, health checks? at least Hips at a min., A saying some breeders have is "What does this dog have, that all the other dogs in that breed don't have, that it should be bred?" Will you be getting deposits BEFORE you consider this to at least hopefully have homes for them? I am sure that I am leaving a lot out, but when I know of almost one year old pups sitting in a kennel without homes that have great lineage behind them,( very few people are putting pups on the ground right now) what will you do with the pups that don't have homes? I have family members and generations back that have bred dogs and I know about the negative sides of it, that is why I don't . Do your homework first.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:52 pm

ultracarry wrote:Ezzy I don't think you get it with the whole same dog.

You can have two dogs with the exact same abilities before training. That's where you are correct. Where you are not correct is that you will not have the same dogs after training. Their abilities have turned into a individual product with specific limitations. The training weeds out those who could not handle training or do not become the finished product with the same attributes you saw before they began their transformation.

I am not sure I have ever seen a dog that couldn't handle training. I have found over the years the dogs that are having trouble usually comes back to the trainer not being sharp enough to figure out how to train that dog. I know they are all different and require different methods and the good trainers have figured that out. In my experience the statement some can't handle training is nothing more than someone saying I haven't figured out how to train the dog. But I will admit I used to think like you do years ago till I saw dogs that one trainer couldn't get it done would be taken to another trainer and it got done. Probably a poor example but it borders on the same thing when Brenda said their Dual Champions have all been pups someone couldn't train and got returned to them.

There are SH dogs that will never be able to handle the pressure as a fully broke dog. There are dogs that will take to training with others that seem identical and when you put pressure on them they fold. There is a huge reason why you shouldn't breed the dog unless you have tested them (in every aspect). And since I do not believe the old axiom that certain dogs can't be trained I will have to admit how well the dog is trained is not what comed through when they are bred so I ignore that part when looking for a pup but look for natural abilites. And in that lite, a Master Hunter is in many times a dog I don't want to breed to,especially if they got the title real young.

ultracarry wrote:As for blue, people will do it and make a buck so who cares (besides the weim clubs) and breed enthusiasts.

I care, even though I have little interest in Wiems, but I am entirely fed up with people who like to tell everyone what a great breeder they are and what a great program they have and then use dogs that are disqualified that do not come close to the standard and use them , and then the rest of us have to suffer the consequences for years to come. Pick the breed you want and like and then breed it if you want and if it doesn't satisfy your needs then find a breed that does and stop trying to change the breeds most of us like just the wy they are.

I admit I'm old , so just ignore all of this if you care to since I am sure everyone on here who has raised a couple of teenagers have been told how stupid they have become once they pass 16.

Ezzy

LincolnAlexander · Post by **LincolnAlexander** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:54 pm

DogNewbie wrote:So long hair weims are not recognized by AKC? Does the German Club accept them?

Yes the German club accepts them, as do most other clubs (including CKC.) My Weims grandfather was a long hair from Germany.

The German club does not accept blues (most don't) but I believe there are a couple kennel clubs that do.
EDIT: Looks like the UKC removed its disqualification from both Blue and Long hair coats in the past couple years.

LincolnAlexander · Post by **LincolnAlexander** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:00 pm

As a side point, I don't believe titles are the 'be all end all', however I think it is important to prove your dog, so there is independent proof of your dogs abilities; I have seen a number of people who think they have an amazing hunting dog, but in reality it is average.

KellyM87 · Post by **KellyM87** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:40 pm

LincolnAlexander wrote:As a side point, I don't believe titles are the 'be all end all', however I think it is important to prove your dog, so there is independent proof of your dogs abilities; I have seen a number of people who think they have an amazing hunting dog, but in reality it is average.

I agree with this. People just want to breed their own dogs, puppies are fun, and it would be a good feeling knowing someone has a pup out of your dog. I have had plenty of hunter friends who bred dogs that I would never want a pup from, just because THEY want a puppy from their own dog. No matter how good their dog really is. Even I am guilty. Although I never will actually breed a litter, I have a dog right now that I love, I think he is amazing. But, in reality he isn't breeding quality, no matter how special he is to me. There are plenty of breeders out there who are trying to IMPROVE breeds, not just breeding. IMO you need a Helluva dog to warrant breeding, otherwise, why? There will always litters available for sale, and any half-way aware buyer will go for pups out of a dog with proven abilities (or health).

I guess I may be biased though. I go to a "Woods and Water" show in Michigan not too far from me every year. They have a puppy tent there. All dogs must be gun dog type breeds, and you wouldn't believe what people bring in! Last year there was Wirehair/Shorthair mixes, and his excuse for breeding them was "I wanted to see what they produced" There were Blue Weim puppies, that the people were saying that they could be registered AKC to buyers.... There were breeders out there giving away puppies at 5 and 6 weeks. I saw a little girl carrying out the tiniest skinniest lab puppy I have ever seen. When I asked her about it, she said that she got it yesterday at the show, and it was born 5 weeks ago! The show was FULL of dogs like this, who were bred just to be bred, and sold.

I know not all litters produced by non-breeders are like this, but it definitely makes you think. Are we trying to make designer dogs out of gun dogs? Where does it end? When do we start trying to improve all the gun dog breeds, instead of keeping them back?

Quinton, I am not saying anything about your dog, I have never met it or saw it. It could be amazing and very well breeding worthy where a lot of people would want pups. My statements are in general. I just believe that too many people are breeding dogs that shouldn't be bred, with obvious faults, or for the wrong reasons.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:54 pm

Whenever the established dogma is questioned, those who have lived by it are offended. I see little difference in the subject dogs and black GSPs, other than the latter have gained a following in some circles. They're all just dogs.

Quinton Tanner · Post by **Quinton Tanner** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:01 pm

Wow what a ride I'm on! Bumpy to say the least, guess Blues will always be inferior dogs even if they are in the same litter as the "proper standard color". My dogs hips have been certified and I have registered the dog with AKC, color disclosed I might add, and never heard a thing bad until now. I hunt in a large circle of friends some with better dogs than mine but not many I proudly will add, and have been complimented on the abilities of my dog by all. So yes I have thought this through and yes I do have many people waiting for this litter of inferior pups. I promise not to degrade the breed for others and I am sorry for all the unwanted dogs that are in shelters with no homes because they do not hold up to the"standard" but it is a shame that for no other reason than color that a quality dog would be thrown away to forever be shunned only because of color. European standards are allowing Blues maybe because they have always been quicker to learn when a bad standard becomes sub-standard. They did develop the breed and therefore may be able to change a standard requirement in the breed when it proves to be unwarranted. I will admit that a lot of people will cling to their prejudices for no other reason than hearsay but I myself have always kept an open mind and when my only passion is a fine hunting dog I choose to see the animal for what she is and no standard can change that. So criticism and all I apologize to those who think I've sinned but if I run into you in the field your hand I will shake and hopefully you will forgive me and I will be proud to show off my dogs abilities. Merry Christmas to all!

Quinton Tanner

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:39 pm

Rules? Why should I follow rules? I'm going to do what ever it takes to win. And standards? Who cares about standards. I don't agree with them so they don't apply to me.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:52 pm

gpblitz wrote:
brad27 wrote:Rules? Why should I follow rules? I'm going to do what ever it takes to win. And standards? Who cares about standards. I don't agree with them so they don't apply to me.
:roll: :roll: :roll: When you don't play by the rules are you truly the winner??

Hyperbole ( /haɪˈpɜrbəliː/ hy-pur-bə-lee;[1] Greek: ὑπερβολή, 'exaggeration') is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.

a rhetorical device or resource of language is a technique that an author or speaker uses to convey to the listener or reader a meaning with the goal of persuading him or her towards considering a topic from a different perspective. While rhetorical devices may be used to evoke an emotional response in the audience, there are other reasons to use them. The goal of rhetoric is to persuade towards a particular frame of view or a particular course of action, so appropriate rhetorical devices are used to construct sentences designed both to make the audience receptive through emotional changes and to provide a rational argument for the frame of view or course of action.

try and keep up.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:34 pm

gpblitz wrote:
brad27 wrote:Hyperbole
The educated mans word for full of BS!!!

go back to my first post of this thread and see what i posted. I like standards, and by the use of a hyperbole, i like rules. Im still waiting for the answer to the question i asked you. i still would like to borrow that book also.

p.s. im not educated.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:32 pm

Quinton Tanner wrote:Wow what a ride I'm on! Bumpy to say the least, guess Blues will always be inferior dogs even if they are in the same litter as the "proper standard color". My dogs hips have been certified and I have registered the dog with AKC, color disclosed I might add, and never heard a thing bad until now. I hunt in a large circle of friends some with better dogs than mine but not many I proudly will add, and have been complimented on the abilities of my dog by all. So yes I have thought this through and yes I do have many people waiting for this litter of inferior pups. I promise not to degrade the breed for others and I am sorry for all the unwanted dogs that are in shelters with no homes because they do not hold up to the"standard" but it is a shame that for no other reason than color that a quality dog would be thrown away to forever be shunned only because of color. European standards are allowing Blues maybe because they have always been quicker to learn when a bad standard becomes sub-standard. They did develop the breed and therefore may be able to change a standard requirement in the breed when it proves to be unwarranted. I will admit that a lot of people will cling to their prejudices for no other reason than hearsay but I myself have always kept an open mind and when my only passion is a fine hunting dog I choose to see the animal for what she is and no standard can change that. So criticism and all I apologize to those who think I've sinned but if I run into you in the field your hand I will shake and hopefully you will forgive me and I will be proud to show off my dogs abilities. Merry Christmas to all!

Quinton Tanner

If you go enter a dog in a hunt test or field trial (no weim clubs included) I'm pretty sure people will.shake your hand watch your dog and BS all the same. It's nothing personal, although you have probably taken it a little. It's just the way it is. Non selective breeding practices crossed with not culling dogs when bred can create colors and traits in all breeds that are not desired.

Good luck with the dog.

legallyblonde · Post by **legallyblonde** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:46 am

LincolnAlexander wrote:
DogNewbie wrote:So long hair weims are not recognized by AKC? Does the German Club accept them?
Yes the German club accepts them, as do most other clubs (including CKC.) My Weims grandfather was a long hair from Germany.

The German club does not accept blues (most don't) but I believe there are a couple kennel clubs that do.
EDIT: Looks like the UKC removed its disqualification from both Blue and Long hair coats in the past couple years.

Yes the Long hair coats are fully accepted in UKC, but blue is still an eliminating fault. An eliminating fault in UKC means the dog can still be registered but it will not be awarded in conformation. A disqualifying fault in UKC means the dog cannot be registered, thus UKC stands behind the faults that they deem disqualifying. I've always found it interesting AKC has DQ faults but you can still register and breed a dog with DQ faults. They even list DQ colors on their pup registrations as a choice in some breeds!

LincolnAlexander · Post by **LincolnAlexander** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:50 am

legallyblonde wrote: Yes the Long hair coats are fully accepted in UKC, but blue is still an eliminating fault. An eliminating fault in UKC means the dog can still be registered but it will not be awarded in conformation. A disqualifying fault in UKC means the dog cannot be registered, thus UKC stands behind the faults that they deem disqualifying. I've always found it interesting AKC has DQ faults but you can still register and breed a dog with DQ faults. They even list DQ colors on their pup registrations as a choice in some breeds!

Thanks for clarifying Sara

Petra · Post by **Petra** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:10 am

"Yes, the Long hair coats are fully accepted in UKC, but blue is still an eliminating fault. An eliminating fault in UKC means the dog can still be registered but it will not be awarded in conformation. A disqualifying fault in UKC means the dog cannot be registered, thus UKC stands behind the faults that they deem disqualifying. I've always found it interesting AKC has DQ faults but you can still register and breed a dog with DQ faults. They even list DQ colors on their pup registrations as a choice in some breeds!"

This leads into a whole new thread and moderator go ahead and move it, as an owner of a BLACK GSP, that is reg. with AKC and NAVHDA, is AKC past its usefulness? Should the breed clubs manage the registry or an independent party? The AKC has done a good job making people believe that if a dog is reg. everything is accurate and we all know that there is a percentage of dogs that have incorrect information that was given to buyers, AKC is not a policing agency. I discussed this with my brother who breeds German reg. , German Shepard Dogs, and his response was that he can talk and explain to buyers all of the training and testing, conformation, what it takes for the dogs to be on that reg. and when he is done the first question is "but are they AKC reg.?" SOOOOOO, what is the answer, to get a reg. that is accurate?

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:52 am

Petra wrote:"Yes, the Long hair coats are fully accepted in UKC, but blue is still an eliminating fault. An eliminating fault in UKC means the dog can still be registered but it will not be awarded in conformation. A disqualifying fault in UKC means the dog cannot be registered, thus UKC stands behind the faults that they deem disqualifying. I've always found it interesting AKC has DQ faults but you can still register and breed a dog with DQ faults. They even list DQ colors on their pup registrations as a choice in some breeds!"

This leads into a whole new thread and moderator go ahead and move it, as an owner of a BLACK GSP, that is reg. with AKC and NAVHDA, is AKC past its usefulness? Should the breed clubs manage the registry or an independent party? The AKC has done a good job making people believe that if a dog is reg. everything is accurate and we all know that there is a percentage of dogs that have incorrect information that was given to buyers, AKC is not a policing agency. I discussed this with my brother who breeds German reg. , German Shepard Dogs, and his response was that he can talk and explain to buyers all of the training and testing, conformation, what it takes for the dogs to be on that reg. and when he is done the first question is "but are they AKC reg.?" SOOOOOO, what is the answer, to get a reg. that is accurate?

This has been explained many times but it seems that most don' read. AKC does NOT have standards. They simply post the breed club standard for them. It is your own club that sets the standards and I am sure they expect the breeders to adhere to them which doesn't work as you can see. It has nothing to do with AKC usefullness as all they ever did was keep the stud book for the different breeds. All it takes to have an honest registry is to have honest people breeding and registering the dogs. Either that or a major police force to inspect and control everything about the breed. And even that probably wouldn't work today.

Guess it comes down to the fact that the registries are just as honest as the people using them.

Ezzy

legallyblonde · Post by **legallyblonde** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:56 am

That is very true that registries are as honest as the people using them. However, the registering of DQ's is across the board, not by breed, so I would say that is an AKC policy and not a breed club decision. I just don't understand what the point of having DQ's in AKC is if they will still register them.

LincolnAlexander · Post by **LincolnAlexander** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:02 am

legallyblonde wrote:That is very true that registries are as honest as the people using them. However, the registering of DQ's is across the board, not by breed, so I would say that is an AKC policy and not a breed club decision. I just don't understand what the point of having DQ's in AKC is if they will still register them.

So they can run non-conformation events? I don't know of many Blue Weims involved in performance or field (especially field), but I have seen the rare SH or MH.

KellyM87 · Post by **KellyM87** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:54 am

LincolnAlexander wrote:
legallyblonde wrote:That is very true that registries are as honest as the people using them. However, the registering of DQ's is across the board, not by breed, so I would say that is an AKC policy and not a breed club decision. I just don't understand what the point of having DQ's in AKC is if they will still register them.
So they can run non-conformation events? I don't know of many Blue Weims involved in performance or field (especially field), but I have seen the rare SH or MH.

Did you guys not pay money to register your dogs? Cash is king in this world. You are donating to the AKC.

LincolnAlexander · Post by **LincolnAlexander** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:58 am

KellyM87 wrote:
LincolnAlexander wrote:
legallyblonde wrote:That is very true that registries are as honest as the people using them. However, the registering of DQ's is across the board, not by breed, so I would say that is an AKC policy and not a breed club decision. I just don't understand what the point of having DQ's in AKC is if they will still register them.
So they can run non-conformation events? I don't know of many Blue Weims involved in performance or field (especially field), but I have seen the rare SH or MH.
Did you guys not pay money to register your dogs? Cash is king in this world. You are donating to the AKC.

My dogs are CKC (Candian Kennel Club) registered

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:58 am

KellyM87 wrote:
LincolnAlexander wrote:
legallyblonde wrote:That is very true that registries are as honest as the people using them. However, the registering of DQ's is across the board, not by breed, so I would say that is an AKC policy and not a breed club decision. I just don't understand what the point of having DQ's in AKC is if they will still register them.
So they can run non-conformation events? I don't know of many Blue Weims involved in performance or field (especially field), but I have seen the rare SH or MH.
Did you guys not pay money to register your dogs? Cash is king in this world. You are donating to the AKC.

Like most everything else, it is a business. Businesses are expected to make money. Not sure why everyone has such a problem with the AKC attempting to be profitable? They provide services that people want... otherwise they wouldn't last very long.

Most times complaints that should be pointed towards a breed club are pointed toward the AKC.

KellyM87 · Post by **KellyM87** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:27 am

ACooper wrote:
Like most everything else, it is a business. Businesses are expected to make money. Not sure why everyone has such a problem with the AKC attempting to be profitable? They provide services that people want... otherwise they wouldn't last very long.

Most times complaints that should be pointed towards a breed club are pointed toward the AKC.

Well put Coop.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:14 am

I agree that most of the problems attributed to AKC are breed club issues.

However, the AKC is a non-profit entity. Therefore, their balance sheet is supposed is supposed to net to zero in terms of assets (I am no accountant so my terms may be off or only partially accurate). The problem with that as I see it is that it can breed a propensity to be less than efficient because all of your revenues are steered to operating costs. As a result it is posible that salary, head count, unnneccesary services et al can be inflated...much like the government if they have the money...they sorta got to spend it.

legallyblonde · Post by **legallyblonde** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:44 am

Again, like I said the registering of DQ's applies across the board in AKC, so I don't think it's a breed club decision. On the other hand, UKC IS a privately owned, for profit business, yet they will not accept DQ's for registration. If you put down on your registration that your Lab is 'silver,' UKC will not register it as silver is a DQ fault.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:47 am

If DQ means disqualification? Then the breed club decides what that is...for example if the American Brittany Club wants the height standard at the shoulder to be a limit of 81" the AKC doesn't give a rat's hind end...they change the standard...at least that is what the AKC reps told me...

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:05 pm

...and some DQ's can be identified at birth, but what about size ?

Susie · Post by **Susie** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:06 pm

Chukar12 wrote:If DQ means disqualification? Then the breed club decides what that is...for example if the American Brittany Club wants the height standard at the shoulder to be a limit of 81" the AKC doesn't give a rat's hind end...they change the standard...at least that is what the AKC reps told me...

DQ = disqualification. The AKC rep is correct. It is the breed club that is responsible for their breed standard.

KellyM87 · Post by **KellyM87** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:19 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I agree that most of the problems attributed to AKC are breed club issues.

However, the AKC is a non-profit entity. Therefore, their balance sheet is supposed is supposed to net to zero in terms of assets (I am no accountant so my terms may be off or only partially accurate). The problem with that as I see it is that it can breed a propensity to be less than efficient because all of your revenues are steered to operating costs. As a result it is posible that salary, head count, unnneccesary services et al can be inflated...much like the government if they have the money...they sorta got to spend it.

Your confused. A non- profit organizayon just means that the don't use excess profit and deliver it to share holders. In smaller organizations ( mostly private) your definition is closer. At the year end an NPO can show a profit. Government accounting is different then other NPO accounting. Just think about what you said. If the income statement always equalled zero, a organization would never expand.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:25 pm

I didnt say income statement I said the balance sheet...though I am sure I am confused on some levels...I am saying roughly what you are...if they make money they have to spend it on the business...whetehr it is necessary or not, so increased revenue equals a bigger entity, whether the entity needs to be bigger or not....the only other option is to bank the cash and I don't know how much or how long they can do that.

KellyM87 · Post by **KellyM87** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:31 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I didnt say income statement I said the balance sheet...though I am sure I am confused on some levels...I am saying roughly what you are...if they make money they have to spend it on the business...whetehr it is necessary or not, so increased revenue equals a bigger entity, whether the entity needs to be bigger or not....the only other option is to bank the cash and I don't know how much or how long they can do that.

A organization dies not have to spend money on an organization for expansion srictly. The can keep positive bank accounts. And a balance sheet should never equal zero in any circumstances. It should balance. that Assets= liabilities + stock holders equity. if any companies balance anger does not balance NPO or not, they are in some deep crap. And they will be getting audited.

KellyM87 · Post by **KellyM87** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:34 pm

KellyM87 wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:I didnt say income statement I said the balance sheet...though I am sure I am confused on some levels...I am saying roughly what you are...if they make money they have to spend it on the business...whetehr it is necessary or not, so increased revenue equals a bigger entity, whether the entity needs to be bigger or not....the only other option is to bank the cash and I don't know how much or how long they can do that.
A organization dies not have to spend money on an organization for expansion srictly. The can keep positive bank accounts. And a balance sheet should never equal zero in any circumstances. It should balance. that Assets= liabilities + stock holders equity. if any companies balance anger does not balance NPO or not, they are in some deep crap. And they will be getting audited.

I understand now I think... By bigger you mean more profitable. More money, you don't mean just a bigger organization meaning employees and such....

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:35 pm

I probably misspoke when I said "make money and be profitable" I probably should have said not lose money.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:41 pm

...yeah I get it, trust me...the point is that a non-profit the size of AKC has no place for the equity to go other than the bank, or new buildings, or wherever...it's nobody's money because it is everybody's money like the government pile of cash (which really does not look good when you are trying to increase fees)..therefore they COULD be motivated to spend...spend...spend if left unfettered, and while I am undecided, a great many learned and experienced people in the purebred dog field are arguing just that...spending and size of the AKC is out of control and it is losing touch

legallyblonde · Post by **legallyblonde** » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:51 pm

Chukar12 wrote:If DQ means disqualification? Then the breed club decides what that is...for example if the American Brittany Club wants the height standard at the shoulder to be a limit of 81" the AKC doesn't give a rat's hind end...they change the standard...at least that is what the AKC reps told me...

It's my understanding the clubs decide WHAT the DQ's are, but I would think AKC decides registration policies, meaning how to handle a DQ. And yes, height will not come into play (if it happens to be a DQ, in many breeds height is merely a 'serious fault') when a dog is registered as a pup, but in breeds where it is a DQ, a wicket can be called in the conformation ring and the dog thus excused if it exceeds the height. Does not affect registration whatsoever.