Dog With Undecended Testicles

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:05 pm

A friend of mine has an 11 month old pup with no visual nut sacks (never dropped). Has anybody ever heard of anything like that? He's calling his vet tomorrow but I'm curious if anyone has experienced this or knows of someone that has...I sure have'nt.

Thanks

sully511 · Post by **sully511** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:16 pm

He's a cryptorchid (bilateral). It's usually genetic and the dog needs to be neutered. The testicles are up inside the abdomen and have a high chance of turning tumorous if they are left in there.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:17 pm

Oh sure...it is not uncommon. The is a Vet issue but if they don't descend by two months (which in this case they have not) they generally won't. They should descend by around 8 weeks.

This pup needs to be neutered because undescended testicles cause a ton of problems, including cancer and even behavioral issues.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:24 pm

It sounds like the breeder didn't tell him. What does his contract say?

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:27 pm

sully511 wrote:It's usually genetic

How would it be considered genetic? It will be bad if the vet can't fix it. Are you sure that neutering is the only answer.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:32 pm

mcbosco wrote:It sounds like the breeder didn't tell him. What does his contract say?

The breeder didn't know and everthing will be made right. I'm just not understanding why or how it would be considered genetic and from who (bloodline, sire or dam).

snips · Post by **snips** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:35 pm

I would say, no way of knowing...

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:40 pm

Ron R wrote:
mcbosco wrote:It sounds like the breeder didn't tell him. What does his contract say?
The breeder didn't know and everthing will be made right. I'm just not understanding why or how it would be considered genetic and from who (bloodline, sire or dam).

Both it is autosomal recessive. Yes that dog must be neutered.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:14 pm

Yes dog get the dog neutered...the testicals have a much higher rate of tumors and cancer also it can cause a higher rate of aggressive behavior as he matures. And it is a trait that is very undesirable

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:45 pm

kninebirddog wrote:And it is a trait that is very undesirable

Where does it come from, meaning how did this pup end up with it?

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:49 pm

Ron R wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:And it is a trait that is very undesirable
Where does it come from, meaning how did this pup end up with it?

Baring some kind of injury, It's a genetic issue just like a bad bite or any other trait parents would have to be carriers.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:57 pm

Ron R wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:And it is a trait that is very undesirable
Where does it come from, meaning how did this pup end up with it?

"For a male dog to be cryptorchid, he must inherit this abnormal gene from both his sire and his dam. If a female dog gets two copies of this abnormal gene from her sire and her dam, she will not express it because she has no testicles, but each of her puppies will be at least a carrier. If she is bred to a male carrier, who has both testicles in his scrotum, but who has one abnormal gene, she may have affected males. If a female with two copies of the abnormal gene is bred to an affected cryptorchid male, all male puppies will be affected. If a cryptorchid male, likewise, is used at stud, all his puppies will be at least carriers, and if he is bred to a carrier, male puppies will be carriers or affected, and females will be carriers"

This explains it pretty well. For an affected dog, both the sire and dam are involved. Also, your friends dog is most likely sterile.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:05 pm

Thanks mcbosco. That helps me understand.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:14 pm

One more thing...would all the males in that litter have the same problem? From the explanations that I've recieved it would seem so but I would be guessing.

Thanks Again

sully511 · Post by **sully511** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:33 pm

It is possible that all the male pups will be affected, but typically there are some that have both their parts, some that just have one and some that don't have any. You would have to expect though that if a littermate of your friend's dog is normal and has all his parts, he will be a carrier and may produce it when he is bred.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:36 pm

mcbosco wrote:
Ron R wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:And it is a trait that is very undesirable
Where does it come from, meaning how did this pup end up with it?
"For a male dog to be cryptorchid, he must inherit this abnormal gene from both his sire and his dam. If a female dog gets two copies of this abnormal gene from her sire and her dam, she will not express it because she has no testicles, but each of her puppies will be at least a carrier. If she is bred to a male carrier, who has both testicles in his scrotum, but who has one abnormal gene, she may have affected males. If a female with two copies of the abnormal gene is bred to an affected cryptorchid male, all male puppies will be affected. If a cryptorchid male, likewise, is used at stud, all his puppies will be at least carriers, and if he is bred to a carrier, male puppies will be carriers or affected, and females will be carriers"

This explains it pretty well. For an affected dog, both the sire and dam are involved. Also, your friends dog is most likely sterile.

I agree with this except it would be very rare that a dog so affected would not be sterile. When the testicles do not decend the body heat will kill the sperm. That is the reason testicles in all mammals as far as I have ever heard of carry the testicles in the scrotum. Cooler that way.

Ezzy

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:49 pm

Well it looks like the the dam had at least one copy of the gene and the sire just one, so he was just a carrier and not affected. If this is the case perhaps just that one pup is affected. She could also have two copies.

But you are right an affected male has almost no chance of reproducing.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:15 pm

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... 110200.htm

Cryptorchidism is a failure of one or both testicles to descend into the scrotum and is seen in all domestic animals. It is common in stallions and boars and is the most common disorder of sexual development in dogs (13%). Predisposing factors include testicular hypoplasia, estrogen exposure in pregnancy, breech labor compromising blood supply to the testes, and delayed closure of the umbilicus resulting in an inability to increase abdominal pressure. Bilateral cryptorchidism results in sterility. Unilateral cryptorchidism is more common, and the male is usually fertile due to sperm production from the normally descended testicle.

Cryptorchidism

The undescended testicle may be located anywhere from just caudal of the kidney to within the inguinal canal. Abdominal testicles produce male hormones, and cryptorchid animals have normal secondary sex characteristics and mating behavior. Because of the inherited nature of the condition, unilateral cryptorchids should not be used for breeding. After puberty the retained testis becomes hypoplastic, degenerate, and fibrotic. Affected animals should be castrated as sertoliomas, seminomas, and interstitial cell tumors tend to develop within cryptorchid testicles and because of the heritability of the condition.

Fireside · Post by **Fireside** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:00 pm

mcbosco wrote:
Ron R wrote:
mcbosco wrote:It sounds like the breeder didn't tell him. What does his contract say?
The breeder didn't know and everthing will be made right. I'm just not understanding why or how it would be considered genetic and from who (bloodline, sire or dam).
Both it is autosomal recessive. Yes that dog must be neutered.

+1

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:28 pm

Regarding neutering the dog, I just read a post on this subject on another forum.

Apparently a cryptorchid male dog has a 10 times higher probablilty of developing testicular cancer than a normal dog. On the surface, that would seem to mandate removal of the undecended testicle(s).

The fly in the oinment is that testicular cancer is exceedingly rare in dogs, on the order of 0.1%, or one in a thousand, so a cryporchid dog has about a 1%(1 in 100) chance of developing cancer from one undecended testicle and I would assume a 2%(2 in 100)chance if both are undecended.

That is still quite a low probablity in that 98 out of 100 dogs with this problem will live out a full, normal life and never develop testicular cancer.

These numbers came from a scientific researcher whose information has always been high quality.

Just something else to consider.

RayG

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:48 pm

I had a friend that owned a Dobe that only one testicle dropped he was hit by a car when he was over a yr old & the 2nd dropped then.

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:45 pm

I had a Black and Roan GSP that had one not wanna drop. The vet told me to rub and kinda push on his stomach and couple times a day and it would help the testicle drop. He was like six months old if I remember right, and sure enough, I went into the kennel one day and it was dropped. Not saying it will fix the genetic problem, just offering that so less problems with the animal.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 9:49 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I had a friend that owned a Dobe that only one testicle dropped he was hit by a car when he was over a yr old & the 2nd dropped then.

ROFLMBO

I could say something but I will restrain myself.

solon · Post by **solon** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:03 am

http://andalusianbullmastiffs.net/masti ... ering.html

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:10 am

The issue is just not cancer. Having seen it in horses, the testicles can interefere with kidney function and are great risk of torsion.

Best to get them out of a place they weren't designed to be.

shags · Post by **shags** » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:14 am

Maybe just 1 in 100 chance of developing a malignancy, but you don't want to take the chance however small. The undescended testicles don't in any way benefit the dog, and malignancy or torsion later will be a whole lot more grief than a neutering procedure soon.

Nhuskr · Post by **Nhuskr** » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:15 am

So in this case, would you neuter before the growth plates have closed?

Cheryl

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:24 am

Nhuskr wrote:So in this case, would you neuter before the growth plates have closed?

Cheryl

The vet said the dog should be neutered but it was not something that needed to be done immediately. He recommended to have it done at mid life or 4 to 5 years old.

Thanks for the responses, they were accurate....unfortunately.

Birdman250 · Post by **Birdman250** » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:33 am

Ron the male pup I have only has one testicle dropped..I assume he's going to need surgery??

taxidermy · Post by **taxidermy** » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:51 am

In a young dog, the testicles can and will travel up and down the canal and if it happens to be on the inside of the pelvic bones as they grow closer the testicle gets stuck behind in this case [this is not a genetic thing ] this is why sometimes they do not drop or drop late.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:53 am

Just hit him with your car. Seriously, I'm not sure.

Maybe try this

Ahumphers91a wrote: had a Black and Roan GSP that had one not wanna drop. The vet told me to rub and kinda push on his stomach and couple times a day and it would help the testicle drop. He was like six months old if I remember right, and sure enough, I went into the kennel one day and it was dropped.

I really hope this works for you. BTW, this dog that I'm referring to is not from our litter.

Good Luck Paul

Birdman250 · Post by **Birdman250** » Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:02 am

Thanks..I love the dog but not sure what to do with him right now. He's got so much potential as he can really run the country. He runs all age and was planning on trialing him in that circuit. I'll wait for a few more weeks and see what develops.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:35 am

taxidermy wrote:In a young dog, the testicles can and will travel up and down the canal and if it happens to be on the inside of the pelvic bones as they grow closer the testicle gets stuck behind in this case [this is not a genetic thing ] this is why sometimes they do not drop or drop late.

Lets back up a minute. first off, the testicles dont travel up and down the canal in a normal dog, and its exceedingly rare for them to travel up in and out of the abdomen in any dog. there is no "canal", even though they call it that. its bad nomenclature. 2nd, none of it has anything to do with the pelvic bones, or pelvic canal. And yes, it is genetic. thats why they always suggest neutering these dogs or at least removing them from the gene pool. yes, they do sometimes drop late, but these are usually the ones that are trapped within the inguinal ring or still sucked up against the body wall (high flankers) near the inguinal ring. not trying to start an argument or one up anybody, just want to clarify the facts.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:02 am

dog dr wrote:
taxidermy wrote:In a young dog, the testicles can and will travel up and down the canal and if it happens to be on the inside of the pelvic bones as they grow closer the testicle gets stuck behind in this case [this is not a genetic thing ] this is why sometimes they do not drop or drop late.
Lets back up a minute. first off, the testicles dont travel up and down the canal in a normal dog, and its exceedingly rare for them to travel up in and out of the abdomen in any dog. there is no "canal", even though they call it that. its bad nomenclature. 2nd, none of it has anything to do with the pelvic bones, or pelvic canal. And yes, it is genetic. thats why they always suggest neutering these dogs or at least removing them from the gene pool. yes, they do sometimes drop late, but these are usually the ones that are trapped within the inguinal ring or still sucked up against the body wall (high flankers) near the inguinal ring. not trying to start an argument or one up anybody, just want to clarify the facts.

So are you saying that dogs that drop them on their own later than 8 weeks should be neutered as well?

taxidermy · Post by **taxidermy** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:07 am

so is this genetic or not " they do sometimes drop late, but these are usually the ones that are trapped within the inguinal ring or still sucked up against the body wall (high flankers) near the inguinal ring"

"not trying to start an argument"

no prob's here

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:17 am

If they are just later than usual it is no problem. I'm not sure if real late is gentic though but I doubt it. It is the retained ones that are the big problem and that is genetic.

Ezzy

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:33 am

I dont know how great the inheritance coefficient is on this issue, but i would suspect that a dog that drops them late would be more likely of siring a dog that didnt drop at all. so yes, i think i personally wouldnt want to breed a dog that dropped a testicle late. and by late i mean beyond 3-4 monmths old. now, i could totally be wrong on this, but thats my take on it given what i have seen and been taught. sometimes the stuff they taught me at the big U ends up being wrong, though!

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:36 am

dog dr wrote:I dont know how great the inheritance coefficient is on this issue, but i would suspect that a dog that drops them late would be more likely of siring a dog that didnt drop at all. so yes, i think i personally wouldnt want to breed a dog that dropped a testicle late. and by late i mean beyond 3-4 monmths old. now, i could totally be wrong on this, but thats my take on it given what i have seen and been taught. sometimes the stuff they taught me at the big U ends up being wrong, though!

I think this makes sense whether it is genetic or not. Something caused it to be late so why possibly perpetuate the problem.

Ezzy

taxidermy · Post by **taxidermy** » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:16 am

"dog dr wrote"
"Lets back up a minute. first off, the testicles dont travel up and down the canal in a normal dog, and its exceedingly rare for them to travel up in and out of the abdomen in any dog. there is no "canal", even though they call it that."

This mit help explain what i was talking about ;it is not uncommon for testicles to travel back and forth in young pups and can in older dogs also.
[ gubernaculum band]
a tight band of connective-tissue, ligament-like material (termed the gubernaculum) forms which links one end of each testicle to the region underneath the animal's perineal skin (skin between the anus and penis) where the corresponding (right or left) scrotal sac will be. The path of the gubernaculum band, from testis to scrotal site, passes through a hole (termed the inguinal canal) in the muscular wall of the animal's abdominal cavity (coelomic cavity), somewhere in the region of the animal's groin. The gubernaculum's role is to contract and draw the testicle from the abdominal cavity through the inguinal canal and into the scrotal sac. To be more specific, the gubernaculum draws the testicle from where it hangs within the abdominal cavity by sliding it along the retroperitoneal space (remember that the testicle is retroperitoneal in location - it hangs down from the roof of the abdominal cavity, slung within the membrane or mesentery that divides the retroperitoneal space off from the abdominal cavity space).
The gubernaculum finishes its contraction, having completely drawn the testicle into the scrotal sac. Once the gubernaculum band has finished contraction, it completely regresses, shrivelling up to not much more than a small bleb of scar tissue located at the bottom pole of the testicle. Prior to complete gubernacular regression, it is possible for the testicle to slide back and forth between the abdomen and scrotal region (you often see this in young puppies - the testicles are very mobile and able to be pushed away from the scrotal sac and up towards the inguinal canal). After gubernacular regression, the testicle is fixed within the scrotal sac and is unable to move out of it, at least in those species where testicle retraction is not a desired possibility.

dog dr · Post by **dog dr** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:30 am

taxidermy wrote: Prior to complete gubernacular regression, it is possible for the testicle to slide back and forth between the abdomen and scrotal region (you often see this in young puppies - the testicles are very mobile and able to be pushed away from the scrotal sac and up towards the inguinal canal).

Yes, this is correct, the testicle can be moved BETWEEN the scrotum and abdominal wall, but it doesnt go back and forth, into and out of, the abdomen. Very rare for it to go back thru the inguinal ring after it is pulled thru it by the gubernaculum. By the way, that has always been my favorite anatomical term - gubernaculum!

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:53 am

LOL gubernaculum: The tissue that aids in the dropping of the testicles -- a very good word to use in hang man.