Field trials and walking events

[CowboyBirdDogs]

This thread makes me like NSTRA that much more....

[Sharon]

To clear my quote up, since it seems to be ambiguous. My point is if you're sending a dog off to the trainer for a vast amount of time, and you're going to throw down the gauntlet about who's finished the youngest dog, you might not act like you did it all on your own. Did you finish the dog or did the trainer have a large part in it? I have no ill will for anyone that sends a dog to a trainer, just think if you're gonna get up on your haunches, you should give credit where credit is due. Modesty and experience goes a long way in my book...

Absolutely. I have a pro who has helped me off and on for 20 years. I give credit and recommend him whenever possible.

[Vision]

This thread makes me like NSTRA that much more....

NSTRA filled the void left by the move away from walking AKC trials.

[CowboyBirdDogs]

This thread makes me like NSTRA that much more....

NSTRA filled the void left by the move away from walking AKC trials.

Yup. And it easily suits the average bird dog enthusiast better than most other venues. They seem to have just as many, if not more trials, it's easier to get into etc. Only downfall is that the winnings dont show up on AKC pedigrees.

[kninebirddog]

This thread makes me like NSTRA that much more....

NSTRA filled the void left by the move away from walking AKC trials.

Yup. And it easily suits the average bird dog enthusiast better than most other venues. They seem to have just as many, if not more trials, it's easier to get into etc. Only downfall is that the winnings dont show up on AKC pedigrees.

Neither does American Field wins

Nice thing is you can go online and see the dogs placement and win records on the NSTRA website easier the other formats.

[tailcrackin]

We are gonna offer to do some in Berea Ky, this fall and spring, along with the regular derby, and shooting dog class. This is gonna be NBHA sanctioned, we now have 4 independent groups, along with the RED SETTER NATIONAL'S walking trial, we opened it last year to all breeds, and had a great turn out.

Jefferson Co. Bird Dog
Club Sept.
24-25
at Central KY Wildlife management area

Fishing Creek Bird Dog
Club Oct.
29-30
At Mike Branscum’s Farm Nancy, KY

Longrun Bird Dog
Club
Nov. 25-27
at Central KY Wildlife management area

Licking River Bird Dog
Club Dec.
17-18
at Central KY Wildlife management area

And also gonna have the Jack Carter Memorial Classic on the horseback side, for the derbies an shooting dogs, the pups and gun dogs we are gonna run across the street in the beagle area on
Feb 27-29, 2012.
I think this is a great way for dog people to get together and have fun. It can only benefit the dog world, imo. Thanks Jonesy

[kensfishing]

I dnon't have a problem with anyone sending their dog to a pro, if you can afford it more power to you. But we all have to try and make newcomers welcome no matter what. For someone to say I don't care about new people that's outragous. The problem we got a start somewhere. We were all new at sometime, even pros. I won't send another dog to a pro, had too many bad issuses with some. Besides I like the idea of beating them in big events. I've also been very forunate to have some really great pros help me with different things that helped me finish my own dogs as well as others in the truly great sport. So if someone invites you take the chance and try it. For me it's field trialing, the other games just don't float my boat. Have a great day and enjoy your dogs.

[birddogger]

Hey Charlie how about you read the entire post and look at the content. Should I personally care? No way. If you read that in the entire post it MAY make sense to you but then again you might just be an old man with a reading and comprehension problem. Don't know and don't care.

Do I try to bring new people in and give useful information to those who are not just blowing smoke? Yea. I might help them out, get them in contact with a trainer (because I'm not) and try to let people know you are not training a dog for the season, its a lifetime for the dog, so if you do it wrong because you were too cheap to get advice from a pro or buy a book then there is no blood on my hands.

BTW NSTRA in so cal is run and attended by old men. Prove me wrong. Bet you can't. Like I said before and it may have hurt your feelings, I can grantee I will loose no sleep over it. But it seems you have been stewing over that for many months and it hurt your feelings . I'm sorry if I could repair those feelings I would, only if it made you smile though.

Nice one ultra carry, but don't flatter yourself by thinking you have the ability to hurt my feelings. It has been a lot of years since anybody has done that! I was just a little curious about some of your past and present comments.

Charlie

[birddogger]

I dnon't have a problem with anyone sending their dog to a pro, if you can afford it more power to you. But we all have to try and make newcomers welcome no matter what. For someone to say I don't care about new people that's outragous. The problem we got a start somewhere. We were all new at sometime, even pros. I won't send another dog to a pro, had too many bad issuses with some. Besides I like the idea of beating them in big events. I've also been very forunate to have some really great pros help me with different things that helped me finish my own dogs as well as others in the truly great sport. So if someone invites you take the chance and try it. For me it's field trialing, the other games just don't float my boat. Have a great day and enjoy your dogs.

Well said! As far as using a pro, I don't do it. The main reason being, I enjoy and take pride in training my own dog, even if they may not turn out as polished as one trained by a competent pro. I will take into consideration any advise I can get from pros and others, but training is just a huge part of owning gun dogs for me and when I get one broke, I always have that urge to get another one and start all over. :roll:

Charlie

[ultracarry]

Feel free to shoot me a PM if you are curious. No need to delay responses for a few months.

[ezzy333]

Will do Knine.

BTW I can't post on this thread. Forgot I had a order to not post on it. Feel free to send a pm.

BTW wems that is an example of a good owner. I work for three to four days straight and can not care for the dog. I Do pay a pro to help ne train the dog and keep her in shape. What's your point. Send a pm as I don't want to disrespect anyone.

I just PM ultra to find out who ordered him not to post on this topic. Seems that it was NO ONE. Just a poor word selection on his part. :roll: I have no idea how many other poor choice of words have taken place but I hope there will be a lot more care taken in the future.

Ezzy

[ultracarry]

I'm sorry ezzy.

To be more clear I could have quoted the message from you with the quotes you pulled from this topic and with the prior history of you telling me I need to stop before I am given time off.... I just put two and two together. But since you decided to say something I though I would be more clear about what I am posting.

[Vision]

This thread makes me like NSTRA that much more....

NSTRA filled the void left by the move away from walking AKC trials.

Yup. And it easily suits the average bird dog enthusiast better than most other venues. They seem to have just as many, if not more trials, it's easier to get into etc. Only downfall is that the winnings dont show up on AKC pedigrees.

I'm not a fan of NSTRA because they don't require a fully broke dog. Having been to AKC trials in the bird field days to me all NSTRA is, is one big 30 minute run in a bird field with an unbroke dog.

[kninebirddog]

Just a different view There are a lot of people who have a great time running their dogs that are broke to retrieve every bird they point and still do it with style.

Would be a shame if every venue out there had to be played by the same rules some like Coke some like Pepsi and some like Dr Pepper some like regular and some like diet...All about what YOU enjoy and who cares if someone else doesn't like what YOU enjoy it it doesn't make it worse or better

[ACooper]

I'm not a fan of NSTRA because they don't require a fully broke dog. Having been to AKC trials in the bird field days to me all NSTRA is, is one big 30 minute run in a bird field with an unbroke dog.

Nothing in the rules says you can't run a broke dog. But to each their own.

[RayGubernat]

Electric Shorthairs wrote:
"Yup. And it easily suits the average bird dog enthusiast better than most other venues. They seem to have just as many, if not more trials, it's easier to get into etc. Only downfall is that the winnings dont show up on AKC pedigrees."

Vision wrote:
"I'm not a fan of NSTRA because they don't require a fully broke dog. Having been to AKC trials in the bird field days to me all NSTRA is, is one big 30 minute run in a bird field with an unbroke dog."

Vision -

That may be your opinion and as such,it is perfectly valid, but I suspect that Electric Shorthairs is very much spot on when he says that NSTRA is an easy transition for the average hunter. The way I read the rules, anyone with a staunch dog(goes at flush) is able to compete in NSTRA. For every dog that is broke steady to wing and shot, there are probably a hundred or more that are staunch. For every dog that is steady to wing, shot AND fall, there are probably SEVERAL hundred that are staunch.

Honestly, if I did not trial my dogs, I would have very little reason to take them past staunch. I hunted, quite successfully, over what you call "unbroke" dogs, for a heck of a long time and they would point birds and hold 'em for as long as it took for me to get there. They were as "broke" as I needed them to be and I killed a boatload of birds over rock solid points for better than thirty years over dogs that went with the flush of the bird. So, it is no surprise to me that many hunters compete in and enjoy the NSTRA format. if I had a staunch dog, I'd probably try it.

I actually did enjoy the one NSTRA trial I went to watch and it was obvious that the participants were also having a good time. It is not my thing, personally, but then again, I don't deer hunt much anymore either. Just a simple matter of choosing how I want to have fun.

I have chosen a different venue in which to comepte and have fun, as you have. Not everyone cares to do what I do or would enjoy it, and I am actually pretty OK with that.

RayG

[Vision]

RayG

I hope you and others don't think I am knocking NSTRA. I am in no way knocking the format or the people that participate in NSTRA. I agree with Electric that NSTRA is an easy step for the average hunter, no argument from me there either.

I just want a higher level of training from a competition dog than I do from a hunting dog.

[birddogger]

Feel free to shoot me a PM if you are curious. No need to delay responses for a few months.

No longer curious.

Charlie

[RayGubernat]

RayG

I hope you and others don't think I am knocking NSTRA. I am in no way knocking the format or the people that participate in NSTRA. I agree with Electric that NSTRA is an easy step for the average hunter, no argument from me there either.

I just want a higher level of training from a competition dog than I do from a hunting dog.

Vision -

I compete in AF, AFTCA and AKC sanctioned stakes so I also am in the search for the highest level of finished performance from my dogs. However, I try not to make comparisons between the formats because those comparisons very often devolve into a "mine is better than yours" type of thing, even if only slightly and that which does not draw us together, divides us.

We cannot hardly help but champion the particular version of the sport we enjoy...because we enjoy it so much. I have to constantly remind myself that different folks take their enjoyment in different ways.

Besides, I suck as a wingshot. That is the ugly truth to why I would not have fun doing NSTRA. I am usually the weak link in the chain anyway, but fortunately I have a better horse than I deserve and he makes up for a lot of it. My dogs don't need me knocking them down by missing a couple of Gimmes

RayG

[CowboyBirdDogs]

RayG

I hope you and others don't think I am knocking NSTRA. I am in no way knocking the format or the people that participate in NSTRA. I agree with Electric that NSTRA is an easy step for the average hunter, no argument from me there either.

I just want a higher level of training from a competition dog than I do from a hunting dog.

Most hunters don't want their dog steady to shot, you tend to lose more birds that way, whether the terrain doesn't allow the dog to see the bird go down and therefore mark it or cripples who run. I wouldn't mind my dogs being steady to wing just because of the safety issues it presents. And when hunting birds that tend to run a lot, if your dog is 300 yards out it doesn't do a lot of good for it to go on point and expect the bird to hold until the hunter gets there. Some guys train their dog to stay steady until they come up and physically release the dog, if you were hunting and you had to do that all day, that would get old quick.

I went to an NBHA trial, I didn't care much for it. I like a different style. But everyone at the NBHA trial was extremely nice, informative, and friendly. I have a lot of respect for guys that train their dog to be completely steady, it takes a lot of hard work and training. My point was just that most guys like the fact that they can grab their shotgun and dog, head out and shoot a couple birds at a trial. It's probably the closest trial venue to hunting, so naturally more guys want to trial in that venue and it's easier because you don't need a horse or anything. And if nothing else, it extends the season a little and time you get to spend with your dog in the field.

These are just MO as a younger, average bird hunter.

[bossman]

Thoughts of an old, below average bird hunter...The important thing, imo, is to welcome and mentor new people into the sport of gun dog's. Introduce them to a breed club and to other possible mentors, take them hunting. Encourage them to visit the different trial or test venues. They will find their way. I think the key is surrounding them with people that will teach and support them as soon as they get a pup. I have not trialed in many years, but still enjoy attending one every now and then. It gets my blood flowing to get on a horse and watch a dog take the edges several hundred yards out and "slam" on point, tail at 12 o'clock, body stretched out and quivering from the sent of the bird. Handler slowly riding up,getting off the horse and flushing the game, with all manners in order. That is what I enjoy and consider the tradition of field trials, but all venues give opportunities for people to extend their enjoyment with their dogs. I really don't see how you could consistantly incorporate a "walking" trial with a "horseback trial". Whatever venue you select, may there be many ribbons in your future. Again, jmo.

[birddogger]

that which does not draw us together, divides us.

Ray, that statement is so true! I just wish more people would understand that. We already have enough enemies.

Charlie

[birddogger]

These are just MO as a younger, average bird hunter.

Your opinion is as valid as anybody's and I think it is great that you are a younger, average bird hunter!

Charlie

[CowboyBirdDogs]

These are just MO as a younger, average bird hunter.

Your opinion is as valid as anybody's and I think it is great that you are a younger, average bird hunter!

Charlie

Thanks a lot! Not a lot of people my age interested in this sport down here in Texas. But I'm thoroughly addicted to all things bird dog. Btw GREAT looking dog in your avatar!!!

[Chukar12]

Electric, you have a couple of opinions that I would like to pick your brain on. I am trying to choose my words carefully because I truly hope to discuss or understand your point of view without conflict. I think your opinions are common and the statements you have made about the venues that better suit most hunters I agree with. I have spent my entire life competing in various manners, motorcycles, bass fishing, running, big game hunting, hounds, and then pointing dogs. I offer this in hopes that whatever credibility or understanding an internet bio can provide gives a basis for my opinions. Throughout these adventures my perspective changed dramatically and pardon the cliche' the one thing I am most certain I have learned is that I always need to learn. Please forgive the set-up...on to my questions...

by ElectricShorthairs

Most hunters don't want their dog steady to shot, you tend to lose more birds that way, whether the terrain doesn't allow the dog to see the bird go down and therefore mark it or cripples who run.

How many hunters do you believe have had the opportunity to see and work with a truly broke dog, who stands steady, marks and retrieves on command? What if you double, or triple, does the dog know where to go? Most professionals that achieve this argue that your statements are innacurate, that a steady dog will be a more consistent retriever. I have had both, I actually own both now...andI don't consider myself experienced enough or consistent enough in logging data to say that one perspective or the other is right, but many professionals argue that a steady dog is the more consistent retriever and that popular opinion otherwise is driven by a lack of exposure and based on my experiences over a lifetime and more accurately my interaction with broke dogs aover the last few years I am more inclined to be in the broke dog camp.

by ElectricShorthairs

And when hunting birds that tend to run a lot, if your dog is 300 yards out it doesn't do a lot of good for it to go on point and expect the bird to hold until the hunter gets there. Some guys train their dog to stay steady until they come up and physically release the dog, if you were hunting and you had to do that all day, that would get old quick.

I think this is terribly misunderstood. I think most dogs exposed to wild birds learn to point birds off far enough to mitigate the runners, not eliminate, but mitigate. Moreover, a dog that doesn't have a bird pinned is free to move until I as the handler take over management of the bird. Once I am to the front I expect the dog to be steady. If a relocation is necessary i can do that via voice and expect the dog to take back over the bird management.

[nikegundog]

Electric wrote"

And when hunting birds that tend to run a lot, if your dog is 300 yards out it doesn't do a lot of good for it to go on point and expect the bird to hold until the hunter gets there. Some guys train their dog to stay steady until they come up and physically release the dog, if you were hunting and you had to do that all day, that would get old quick.

Chuker wrote" I think this is terribly misunderstood. I think most dogs exposed to wild birds learn to point birds off far enough to mitigate the runners, not eliminate, but mitigate. Moreover, a dog that doesn't have a bird pinned is free to move until I as the handler take over management of the bird. Once I am to the front I expect the dog to be steady. If a relocation is necessary i can do that via voice and expect the dog to take back over the bird management.

Chucker, I don't know what species of birds that either you or Electric are speaking of but I have been pheasant hunting for 30+ years are have this opinion on them. With the exception of the opening two weeks and the juvenile's 70% of the pheasants are running to the end of the field as soon as they feel pressured (say getting within 30-50 yards of them), so I would think the if a dog points at a distance and doesn't pin them, there would be no way for the handler to get around and handle 70% of birds. The cover I am hunting is usually pretty thick CRP, and the majority birds are being pinned to the edges or voids. So if you are talking pheasants, what's your success rate on handling a bird in the middle of the field and not the fringe?

[Chukar12]

Nike, I couldnt argue with you...where I hunt pheasant which I do only when my dentist is too busy to pull a tooth without pain killer, I hunt edges almost exclusively. The farm lands and river bottoms are full of berry patches and the pheasants usually get in them. While there are flat and rolling hilled farms in the valley I don't have much cause to get to them. In any event, when bird does run I do not mind a dog that relocates, as long as they don't put a bird up. If they go clear to an edge and point a bird, I am fine with that, and I really don't care how much cat and mouse goes on getting there.

[ACooper]

We should have to preface discussions about what is needed in a dog as far as STWS or just steady by stating the bird being hunted. There are rules for the majority of birds then there are rules for hunting pheasants. And many times they are very different. I hunt pheasants with pointing dogs almost exclusively, but lets face it a flushing dog many times a better/easier choice for hunting pheasants.

JMO

[Ahumphers91a]

We should have to preface discussions about what is needed in a dog as far as STWS or just steady by stating the bird being hunted. There are rules for the majority of birds then there are rules for hunting pheasants. And many times they are very different. I hunt pheasants with pointing dogs almost exclusively, but lets face it a flushing dog many times a better/easier choice for hunting pheasants.

JMO

How so, I am from Northern California and we hunted pheasants in rice, corn, sugar beets you name it, and we had labs. The labs almost always seemed to make the birds get up and run down the ditches and cheks. I will never hunt any upland bird again without a pointing dog! Pheasants are way too smart, especially at the end of the season, that's when the birds that have survived many hunts in previous years are at their best. They know whats going on.

[birddogger]

I think this is terribly misunderstood. I think most dogs exposed to wild birds learn to point birds off far enough to mitigate the runners, not eliminate, but mitigate. Moreover, a dog that doesn't have a bird pinned is free to move until I as the handler take over management of the bird. Once I am to the front I expect the dog to be steady. If a relocation is necessary i can do that via voice and expect the dog to take back over the bird management.

FWIW, As a bird hunter, this is pretty much my view also.

Charlie

[CowboyBirdDogs]

I understand what you mean about multiple retrieves. That definitely makes sense. But I hunt quail in the Rolling Plains of Texas and there have been quite a few times that if my dog was STWS, they couldn't have seen where the bird went down due to terrain or thick brush. And if you cripple a pheasant, and then release your dog, the time it takes the dog to close the gap is normally more than enough time for a rooster to get away.

I agree with what ACooper said about a certain set of rules being applied to most gamebirds and then a set of rules applied to pheasant (although I'd toss blue quail in that same category.). I can see why some people would think flushers are better for phez but I'll stick with pointing breeds, they're purdier to watch

I also agree with Nike about a handler getting up to the dog and handling the bird when they run so much.
But hey, I'm 22 and this will be my second year to hunt pheasant, 5th year to hunt bobwhites and first year to actually compete in NSTRA (I planted birds this past year, my best dog is only PAL registered so she can't play). I know I have a lot to learn and that's why I come to this forum, to converse with the guys who have been training, hunting and trailing over all sorts of breeds for many years!

Electric, you have a couple of opinions that I would like to pick your brain on. I am trying to choose my words carefully because I truly hope to discuss or understand your point of view without conflict. I think your opinions are common and the statements you have made about the venues that better suit most hunters I agree with. I have spent my entire life competing in various manners, motorcycles, bass fishing, running, big game hunting, hounds, and then pointing dogs. I offer this in hopes that whatever credibility or understanding an internet bio can provide gives a basis for my opinions. Throughout these adventures my perspective changed dramatically and pardon the cliche' the one thing I am most certain I have learned is that I always need to learn. Please forgive the set-up...on to my questions...

by ElectricShorthairs

Most hunters don't want their dog steady to shot, you tend to lose more birds that way, whether the terrain doesn't allow the dog to see the bird go down and therefore mark it or cripples who run.

How many hunters do you believe have had the opportunity to see and work with a truly broke dog, who stands steady, marks and retrieves on command? What if you double, or triple, does the dog know where to go? Most professionals that achieve this argue that your statements are innacurate, that a steady dog will be a more consistent retriever. I have had both, I actually own both now...andI don't consider myself experienced enough or consistent enough in logging data to say that one perspective or the other is right, but many professionals argue that a steady dog is the more consistent retriever and that popular opinion otherwise is driven by a lack of exposure and based on my experiences over a lifetime and more accurately my interaction with broke dogs aover the last few years I am more inclined to be in the broke dog camp.

by ElectricShorthairs

And when hunting birds that tend to run a lot, if your dog is 300 yards out it doesn't do a lot of good for it to go on point and expect the bird to hold until the hunter gets there. Some guys train their dog to stay steady until they come up and physically release the dog, if you were hunting and you had to do that all day, that would get old quick.

I think this is terribly misunderstood. I think most dogs exposed to wild birds learn to point birds off far enough to mitigate the runners, not eliminate, but mitigate. Moreover, a dog that doesn't have a bird pinned is free to move until I as the handler take over management of the bird. Once I am to the front I expect the dog to be steady. If a relocation is necessary i can do that via voice and expect the dog to take back over the bird management.

[Tejas]

I understand what you mean about multiple retrieves. That definitely makes sense. But I hunt quail in the Rolling Plains of Texas and there have been quite a few times that if my dog was STWS, they couldn't have seen where the bird went down due to terrain or thick brush. And if you cripple a pheasant, and then release your dog, the time it takes the dog to close the gap is normally more than enough time for a rooster to get away.

I agree with what ACooper said about a certain set of rules being applied to most gamebirds and then a set of rules applied to pheasant (although I'd toss blue quail in that same category.). I can see why some people would think flushers are better for phez but I'll stick with pointing breeds, they're purdier to watch

I also agree with Nike about a handler getting up to the dog and handling the bird when they run so much.
But hey, I'm 22 and this will be my second year to hunt pheasant, 5th year to hunt bobwhites and first year to actually compete in NSTRA (I planted birds this past year, my best dog is only PAL registered so she can't play). I know I have a lot to learn and that's why I come to this forum, to converse with the guys who have been training, hunting and trailing over all sorts of breeds for many years!

Electric, you have a couple of opinions that I would like to pick your brain on. I am trying to choose my words carefully because I truly hope to discuss or understand your point of view without conflict. I think your opinions are common and the statements you have made about the venues that better suit most hunters I agree with. I have spent my entire life competing in various manners, motorcycles, bass fishing, running, big game hunting, hounds, and then pointing dogs. I offer this in hopes that whatever credibility or understanding an internet bio can provide gives a basis for my opinions. Throughout these adventures my perspective changed dramatically and pardon the cliche' the one thing I am most certain I have learned is that I always need to learn. Please forgive the set-up...on to my questions...

by ElectricShorthairs

Most hunters don't want their dog steady to shot, you tend to lose more birds that way, whether the terrain doesn't allow the dog to see the bird go down and therefore mark it or cripples who run.

How many hunters do you believe have had the opportunity to see and work with a truly broke dog, who stands steady, marks and retrieves on command? What if you double, or triple, does the dog know where to go? Most professionals that achieve this argue that your statements are innacurate, that a steady dog will be a more consistent retriever. I have had both, I actually own both now...andI don't consider myself experienced enough or consistent enough in logging data to say that one perspective or the other is right, but many professionals argue that a steady dog is the more consistent retriever and that popular opinion otherwise is driven by a lack of exposure and based on my experiences over a lifetime and more accurately my interaction with broke dogs aover the last few years I am more inclined to be in the broke dog camp.

by ElectricShorthairs

And when hunting birds that tend to run a lot, if your dog is 300 yards out it doesn't do a lot of good for it to go on point and expect the bird to hold until the hunter gets there. Some guys train their dog to stay steady until they come up and physically release the dog, if you were hunting and you had to do that all day, that would get old quick.

I think this is terribly misunderstood. I think most dogs exposed to wild birds learn to point birds off far enough to mitigate the runners, not eliminate, but mitigate. Moreover, a dog that doesn't have a bird pinned is free to move until I as the handler take over management of the bird. Once I am to the front I expect the dog to be steady. If a relocation is necessary i can do that via voice and expect the dog to take back over the bird management.

I've been hunting quail in the rolling plains since 1983 and like Ray have hunted behind several dogs that were staunch. I've also been field trialing fully broke dogs for the past six or seven years. I prefer the stws primarily for the safety reasons. My experience is that whether the dog was staunch or stws, the fact the bird went down in thick cover or over a hill never makes much difference. They still have a nose.