Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by ddshine » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:43 am

hi-tailyn wrote:Just want to agree with a couple posts. AKC is purely in it for the $$$$$$$$. Any way to get more dogs registered and participating in any venue which they receive $$$$ for, they will approve in their registry.

I'm easily confused on this point though. Havoak has been known to not be registered with AKC for years. But he has been registered with AF, and has competed and won many NGSPA CH's. I watched him run and defiantly win at Booneville this year. Why is it now not ok with his AF registration?? Now AF is the one withholding titles till DNA verification. Why is it different today, that it Was OK years ago? Now he can run in AKC trials which he couldn't before, and now he can't run in AF trials which he could up until recently. Only AKC and their "Q" rule can figure this one out.

Scott
The american field has said from the get go that they have no problem with his registration, this once again was because t from ohio called and asked if bernie was allowing questionable registered dogs from the akc to compete. Had Jim not followed through with the AKC Q registration the dog would be fine with the AF. Scott i don't know why it is different today at all, he does have dna on file with both the AKC and AF. I guess now people are informed about his pedigree and can choose whether or not they want to breed to him. I think a dog with 5 national titles, his pedigree speaks for itself having six other dogs winning multiple national titles should be an asset to the breed no doubt.
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by ddshine » Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:00 am

Crestonegsp wrote:Bernie @ AF will accept your AKC DNA certificate so the Conditional Registration moves across to the FDSB also and is an issue here. If AF tells you you give me a DNA # from AKC and I don't care if it has a "Q" on it or not and I will record your wins. What would you do? I don't like to get beat in a FT but if your dog does a better job than mine I can accept that and I need to go back and work harder or smarter. Have pointers been breed into GSPs and other breeds? I have seen my share of Lemon GSPs, odd colored Weims, 1/2 white Viz and long legged Britts so sure they have. All I want is a level playing field and if I run my GSP I think it is only fair that all others entered in a NGSPA event are GSPs also. I have GSPs and not Pointers and that is the point here. We have a breed of dog that we like and that breed is beter than some other breeds and not as good as others. Are there many GSPs that can go win @ Ames, no, not really. So if someone has a dog that can not be proven to be from the parents and breed listed than that is an issue. If we are going to say it's ok to accept a DNA that can not be proven (why have it) than we do not need different breeds we might as well just leave all trials open to what ever you drop on the ground but if we want the breed of dogs we have and keep the current system we have there needs to be standards set and upheld.

I am not here to throw anyone or their dog under the bus but we need to have some control to keep the breed of dogs we have. Mr. Amatulli is correct, we need a date for all to be grandfathered in and move on because at this point it is what it is.

No doubt the EP has been infiltrated into various breeds of dogs, this was not done to cheat the registries, it was done to improve the breed. I have mentioned this is a made up game we play and we play it to the extremes. Back when all this was done no one nowadays would even own the dogs they had before they crossbred them. No style, gait, body size, bulky animals, we made the game up and people have bred dogs accordingly to to fit the game. Everyone that owns a GSP has some crossbred dog in its back ground, so its better or more legitimate when they are not known about? its ok then but now its not? I really dont think there is a lot of cross breeding done in the GSP's now but it has been done in the past. The AKC was totally wrong for throwing these dogs out in the first place because it cannot be proven one way or the other. Most dogs now only have DNA one or two gens back anyway, so because they dont have a dna'd three generation pedigree and their heritage cannot be proven through dna they should have a "Q" also. This is ridiculous. The AKC knows that they screwed up on not starting the dna program from a certain date and moving forward, and that's why they have given this Q number to dogs. Well if you pay attention this Q thing will kill itself and once that happens almost every dog bred should be dna'd to register their litters, or when they obtain a title from them, as what bernie requires. The answer is not totally throwing the dogs out of either the AF or the AKC, they are doing no one any harm by letting the run......TRAIN....DON'T COMPLAIN

Once the rocks start getting thrown from dog to dog this thing will never end. You have other people mentioning dogs..."oh yeah that was half pointer".....yeah that dog was HAlf pointer and contributed to 90% of the dogs we have today and everyone can thank the breeder for improving the GSP breed, Because with out it we would not have the dogs we have today
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:39 am

Exodus 20:5

As far as stories of which dog is half pointer or all pointer, I've heard the nearly identical story told several times, with only the name of the accused dog changed. It seems odd to me, also that it's always a big name champion male dog who stands accused. Was never a ringer female used instead of a big winning trial bitch? Seems to me it would be much easier that way.
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by fuzznut » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:22 am

No doubt the EP has been infiltrated into various breeds of dogs, this was not done to cheat the registries, it was done to improve the breed
Cheating is cheating. Dishonesty is just that, dishonesty. Had these folks been honest in what they were doing, like the Red Setter gang, this whole discussion would be different.
The breeding of EP's to various breeds may well have improved/changed the breeds, but those who did it and registered the dogs as purebred "whatever's" certainly did cheat the registries, and the future owners of those dogs. They plain old lied! Just look at the mess we are having right now... dogs from unknown parents and no one even knows what breed was used? Just because it MAY have improved/changed a breed, lieing about it doesn't make it right.

The owners of these dogs do not deserve to be thrown under the bus, but the breeders sure do!

What was done 25 yrs ago is water way under the proverbial bridge and nothing can be done about it today. I agree with Joe that some time frame should be chosen and dogs registered and dna'd incorrectly from that date forward be removed.

Or else someone needs to start their own FT circuit or registry... a free for all where it doesn't matter the breed... put em all down and run em. Let the best dog win.
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by hi-tailyn » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:42 pm

The AKC does not have Runner Up Champions in its Nationals. They place first through fourth. Even so, in the eleven years that DNA has been required, there has never been a pointer in second place in any of the stakes, so I'm not sure I follow your story. Mind clarifying?[/quote]

I give.

AKC 2nd place is still Runner Up to First Place. The event was the AKC Pointer National CH held at the island (sorry I can't think of its name) in NJ where they hold the NGSP Pheasant and other championships.

Each pointing breed has their own National Championship. GSP's, Brittanies, GWP's, Vislas, etc. and Pointers.

So yes he is the Runner Up National Champion AKC Pointer.
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Joe Amatulli » Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:50 pm

Well Danny and Bernee, you know that I totally agree. The worst part of all this is that two super great people like Jim and Kathleen are the once that are going to get the worst of this. Maybe a letter campaign or a petition, it’s worth a try.

CC what on earth are you trying to say! Your insistence on making comments on everything that is posted is making it look like you’ve lost a few screws there fella. Do you read what you write it truly sounds like gibberish and by the way if you competed at the championship level, you would know that even if it’s AKC championships second is either second or first runner up, third is third or second runner up and forth is forth or third runner up. Go outside get some fresh air I think you really, really need it.

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Joe Amatulli » Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:02 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Exodus 20:5

As far as stories of which dog is half pointer or all pointer, I've heard the nearly identical story told several times, with only the name of the accused dog changed. It seems odd to me, also that it's always a big name champion male dog who stands accused. Was never a ringer female used instead of a big winning trial bitch? Seems to me it would be much easier that way.
This is not correct, winning bitchs get tagged with this also. For quite awhile Selina was rumored to be out of Trilogy, good trick if you could do it.

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by remmy » Sat Jul 09, 2011 3:45 pm

Selina WAS out of Trilogy! :lol:

This is all bs. As Joe said, this opens up the door for more cross breeding, which will end up being allowed after three generations. They really should pick a date to start with and grandfather everyone else in.

Dan correct me if I'm wrong, but Havoc was always registered FDSB right? That being the case, I cannot understand why his NGSPA titles are even an issue since FDSB never had an issue with his reg until this AKC "Q" bs came about. It is somewhat understandable if the event was dual sanctioned but all the National titles he won weren't.

The wrong people are being affected by this current "Q" method.

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:00 pm

Can anyone explain why Direct Deposit has two AKC numbers? A conversion is supposed to replace the first letter of the registration number with the Q, not change it entirely. My conformation friends are quite intrigued by this, by the way.
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:47 pm

HE also has AKC placements under 2 different No's 3 under full Reg & 1 under Q Reg.I guess only AKC knows why ?
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:50 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:He also has AKC placements under those 2 different No's 3 under full Reg & 1 under Q Reg.I guess only AKC knows why. :?
Well, I think those who pay for AKC to maintain the integrity of the Studbook deserve an answer to that question.
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by ddshine » Sat Jul 09, 2011 7:33 pm

To clerify some points here...rob yes he has always been FDSB registered and their was never a problem with them. Direct deposit was only ran in a few trials and the owner got out of field trials, from what i hear. The dog was bred one time and was later sterile then was given to a couple to retire as a pet. Being a dog he later was hit by a car and is dead.

The real issue here is that at some point the AKC needs to call everything that is in the past good and start from a specific date with dna'n all dogs. If you want to breed two dogs, they have to be dna'd....if you obtain a title your dog needs to be dna'd.....I'll go a little further add $20 to the registration and have every dog registered dna'd. THATS THE ONLY SOLUTION....IT IS NOT THROWING THESE DOGS OUT .

Some people commenting on this have no clue what they are talking about... Once we can get our dogs 90 lbs again and pointing with 8 o'clock tails you'll be happy.

a dog starts winning consistently and people want to bash'em....not go outside and breed to him thats crazy to me. Just like joe when he was out here kickin "bleep" with selena, people thought he cheated some way....well did you ever think that hard work and determination pay off...oh yeah first you have to start with a GOOD DOG....FROM GOOD BLOODLINES....THAT'S NUMBER ONE...NUMBER TWO IS PUTTING THE TIME AND EFFORT INTO MAKING THEM THE BEST.
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:14 pm

ddshine wrote:To clerify some points here...rob yes he has always been FDSB registered and their was never a problem with them. Direct deposit was only ran in a few trials and the owner got out of field trials, from what i hear. The dog was bred one time and was later sterile then was given to a couple to retire as a pet. Being a dog he later was hit by a car and is dead.

The real issue here is that at some point the AKC needs to call everything that is in the past good and start from a specific date with dna'n all dogs. If you want to breed two dogs, they have to be dna'd....if you obtain a title your dog needs to be dna'd.....I'll go a little further add $20 to the registration and have every dog registered dna'd. THATS THE ONLY SOLUTION....IT IS NOT THROWING THESE DOGS OUT .

Some people commenting on this have no clue what they are talking about... Once we can get our dogs 90 lbs again and pointing with 8 o'clock tails you'll be happy.

a dog starts winning consistently and people want to bash'em....not go outside and breed to him thats crazy to me. Just like joe when he was out here kickin "bleep" with selena, people thought he cheated some way....well did you ever think that hard work and determination pay off...oh yeah first you have to start with a GOOD DOG....FROM GOOD BLOODLINES....THAT'S NUMBER ONE...NUMBER TWO IS PUTTING THE TIME AND EFFORT INTO MAKING THEM THE BEST.
So what about the two registration numbers on Direct Deposit? Any information there?

I don't know why Havoc is the center of the storm, other than he has an impressive record. The problem lies with his paternity.

Your DNA proposal, while sound, has a few glitches. What about AI breedings of long dead sires?

Also, with the AKC accepting Q dogs and the FDSB rejecting them, how do you handle dual sanctioned trials?
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:06 pm

AKC caused this mess & now their not willing to do what it takes to straighten it out what ever that might be.Not matter what they do it's going tick some one off,you can bet on that :!: :!:

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by bigoak » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:30 pm

Do you really think this cross breeding is about the betterment of the breed? For the last 40 years the gsp breed has had some wonderful all age champions.The breed has all the birddog and run it needs to carry on.There is no need to add anymore pointer to the gsp. This is more about the character of the peaple involved and their lack of sportmenship..... vern

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by JKP » Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:27 am

My point is that for the betterment of the dogs and various breeds, the registries should make allowances for cross breeding and then a return to breed a possible pathway under their rules.
For what reasons? Their is certainly no need to continue breeding Pointers with GSP....with 20-30,000 GSP being bred worldwide, if you can't find the GSP you need, you are either stupid or lazy. Crossbreeding is usuually done for personal glory...winning...it has nothing to do with bettering a breed or making a contribution (except maybe in the case of the obscure, low output breeds where genetic breadth is an issue). What disturbs me about this discussion is the high minded tone of improving the breed....its simply about having the fastest car in the garage. Is a VW with a 454 big block in the back seat still a VW?

What I hear is a bunch of folks who couldn't give a rat's $#% about any breed....just winning or blowing everybody away in the bird field. What drives all this is FT...making all breeds the same...competitive in one event. If that is the case, do away with breeds....why the theater...

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by ddshine » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:06 am

bigoak wrote:Do you really think this cross breeding is about the betterment of the breed? For the last 40 years the gsp breed has had some wonderful all age champions.The breed has all the birddog and run it needs to carry on.There is no need to add anymore pointer to the gsp. This is more about the character of the peaple involved and their lack of sportmenship..... vern

And those wonderful all age champions some way or another came out of a crossbreeding. I am not saying to continue crossbreeding nor am i really for it at all, however what qualities the GSP has recieved because of cross breeding has done the breed a tremendous amount of good....I will go out on a limb saying this but I think the GSP right now as far as field trials is the premier breed. I have watched several EP CH and I am not overly impressed with them at all. Your right vern there is no reason to add any more EP to the breed since we have some better dogs because of the cross breeding that was done previously. But that is not what this discussion is about. Its about the GSPCA and NGSPA taking measures to not allow these Q registered dogs to compete in FT's. These dogs probably have problems that because of certain circumstances they cannot fix.
Cajun Casey wrote:
ddshine wrote:To clerify some points here...rob yes he has always been FDSB registered and their was never a problem with them. Direct deposit was only ran in a few trials and the owner got out of field trials, from what i hear. The dog was bred one time and was later sterile then was given to a couple to retire as a pet. Being a dog he later was hit by a car and is dead.

The real issue here is that at some point the AKC needs to call everything that is in the past good and start from a specific date with dna'n all dogs. If you want to breed two dogs, they have to be dna'd....if you obtain a title your dog needs to be dna'd.....I'll go a little further add $20 to the registration and have every dog registered dna'd. THATS THE ONLY SOLUTION....IT IS NOT THROWING THESE DOGS OUT .

Some people commenting on this have no clue what they are talking about... Once we can get our dogs 90 lbs again and pointing with 8 o'clock tails you'll be happy.

a dog starts winning consistently and people want to bash'em....not go outside and breed to him thats crazy to me. Just like joe when he was out here kickin "bleep" with selena, people thought he cheated some way....well did you ever think that hard work and determination pay off...oh yeah first you have to start with a GOOD DOG....FROM GOOD BLOODLINES....THAT'S NUMBER ONE...NUMBER TWO IS PUTTING THE TIME AND EFFORT INTO MAKING THEM THE BEST.
So what about the two registration numbers on Direct Deposit? Any information there?

I don't know why Havoc is the center of the storm, other than he has an impressive record. The problem lies with his paternity.

Your DNA proposal, while sound, has a few glitches. What about AI breedings of long dead sires?

Also, with the AKC accepting Q dogs and the FDSB rejecting them, how do you handle dual sanctioned trials?
Well I dont know about the two registration numbers....Havoc has two also. This was their original registration number that was given to them like every other dog that is registered. When they threw in this Q registration number thats how they received another number.

My DNA propsal could work with that it wouldn't take much to make sure that the AI'd dog was dna'd.....But there is where you might be opening up another can of worms...For instance what if DIxieland's rusty had semen and was bred. Now D.R. has DNA pulled out of him and it is found that 50% of his sired litters did not match? What would happen to the breed. Another one is clown, or saddle. Where does it stop that is why we need to start from a certain date and move forward. Right now the GSPCA wants to ban these dogs from running well do they think its gonna be funny when the breed is taking down by stone throwing back and forth about which dog is half pointer....who gives a s**t. it did the breed good, and thats that.

I would imagine that if really old sires were dna'd the breed would crumble and be gone. and a few people would still have a regular registraion number but I would guess 95% of the dogs would be a Q dog.

I think a recognized registered dog of either registry should be allowed to compete in any events offered by that organization.
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:21 am

@ Dan, thank you for responding.
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by tn red » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:00 pm

ddshine wrote



And those wonderful all age champions some way or another came out of a crossbreeding. I am not saying to continue crossbreeding nor am i really for it at all, however what qualities the GSP has recieved because of cross breeding has done the breed a tremendous amount of good....I will go out on a limb saying this but I think the GSP right now as far as field trials is the premier breed. I have watched several EP CH and I am not overly impressed with them at all. Your right vern there is no reason to add any more EP to the breed since we have some better dogs because of the cross breeding that was done previously. But that is not what this discussion is about. Its about the GSPCA and NGSPA taking measures to not allow these Q registered dogs to compete in FT's. These dogs probably have problems that because of certain circumstances they cannot fix.

So you agree it helped GSPs as a breed to cross with pointers but your not impressed with CH pointers ? Thats like folks having a Blackhawk or Strut dog and hating setters.

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by ddshine » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:15 pm

[quote="tn red"
So you agree it helped GSPs as a breed to cross with pointers but your not impressed with CH pointers ? Thats like folks having a Blackhawk or Strut dog and hating setters.[/quote]

oh really is it. well what we had as shorthairs before it was probably way worse so heck yeah it helped. Don't get me wrong i like watching the EP's they are fabulous on their game and look good running around. The guys running don't seem to let them run as much as the shorthair guys do. I guess if i had a $5000 purse i would let me dogs run like maniacs. But what I wasn't impressed with, handlers pulling out trackers after the dogs gone for 6 minutes, that kind of stuff is what i was referring to
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by bigoak » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:05 pm

I'm sorry,But I don't see dogs that are better than the dogs we had 30 years ago.What I see is alot of out of control dogs that couldn't get around without all the double handling that's going on.The cross breeding perpetuates it's self-if you can't beat them you have to join them.I ran "real" gsp's from 1973-1981.I had a basket of ribbon but no blues.I get my first white dog and the rest is history.The next three dogs had Nat.Amateur titles.Were those white dogs better birddogs than my shorthairs,I didn't think so.Did they run more-alot more! My question is where are the littermates to Jims dog? I'm sure your going to see them in pedigree's down the line.............vern

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Ahumphers91a » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:12 pm

bigoak wrote:Do you really think this cross breeding is about the betterment of the breed? For the last 40 years the gsp breed has had some wonderful all age champions.The breed has all the birddog and run it needs to carry on.There is no need to add anymore pointer to the gsp. This is more about the character of the peaple involved and their lack of sportmenship..... vern
Well said Bigoak! stop cheating guys. Just like that oop's post in the dogs for sale section! It makes me sick to see a-lot of us GSP guys and EP guys saying, "Dock the tails and register", or don't dock and register. C'mon, that's all I have to say on the subject. The betterment of the breed was done during inception, now leave it alone.

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by ddshine » Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:52 pm

Ahumphers91a wrote:
bigoak wrote:Do you really think this cross breeding is about the betterment of the breed? For the last 40 years the gsp breed has had some wonderful all age champions.The breed has all the birddog and run it needs to carry on.There is no need to add anymore pointer to the gsp. This is more about the character of the peaple involved and their lack of sportmenship..... vern
Well said Bigoak! stop cheating guys. Just like that oop's post in the dogs for sale section! It makes me sick to see a-lot of us GSP guys and EP guys saying, "Dock the tails and register", or don't dock and register. C'mon, that's all I have to say on the subject. The betterment of the breed was done during inception, now leave it alone.

Look at your pedigrees their is pointer in em. does that make you a cheat. This Q does not mean that the dog s cross bred with another breed. The betterment of the breed happens twice in the spring and once in the fall at the National CH's
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Joe Amatulli » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:15 pm

Vern and Humphers, where do you think the white came from in your dogs, the tail, the intensity on point and the body structure, the stamina, you guys aren’t trying to say, that it came from Germany, are you. I agree some guys did it to improve the breed, but there were and still are a number that do it to simply cheat. We have enough pointer blood at this point now it’s up to us to breed smartly.

Bottom line, how would you like it if a few years from now someone tells you “sorry, but we can’t indemnify your dogs great grandfather so you no longer have a clean registration”. The AKC and others have to face reality IT WAS DONE, except it and move on and make sure IT’S NO LONGER DONE.

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:30 pm

Just scroll through some of these dogs and see which ones have "twelve o'clock" tails. Chick's got a high tail. You want to call him a half pointer?

http://www.gspca.org/Awards/HOF/dogs.html#chick

Only vertical tail I see right off the bat is Inga. :roll:
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by bigoak » Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:32 pm

I wish old Tommy Schwertfeger was alive.He could tell us where the pionters are-they used his dogs! The funny part about it is ,the Shorthairs they got from it are better than the pointers he had...vern

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by tn red » Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:17 pm

ddshine wrote:[quote="tn red"
So you agree it helped GSPs as a breed to cross with pointers but your not impressed with CH pointers ? Thats like folks having a Blackhawk or Strut dog and hating setters.
oh really is it. well what we had as shorthairs before it was probably way worse so heck yeah it helped. Don't get me wrong i like watching the EP's they are fabulous on their game and look good running around. The guys running don't seem to let them run as much as the shorthair guys do. I guess if i had a $5000 purse i would let me dogs run like maniacs. But what I wasn't impressed with, handlers pulling out trackers after the dogs gone for 6 minutes, that kind of stuff is what i was referring to[/quote]

Handlers & not the dog...Glad you cleared that up. 8)

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by remmy » Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:08 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Just scroll through some of these dogs and see which ones have "twelve o'clock" tails. Chick's got a high tail. You want to call him a half pointer?

http://www.gspca.org/Awards/HOF/dogs.html#chick

Only vertical tail I see right off the bat is Inga. :roll:
Why not. I know nothing about Esser's Chick but just because it's a dark dog does not mean there can't be any pointer in there. Ever here the term culling before? There are viszla's and weims crossbred with pointers but they're solid color why? They only kept the ones that looked like vizslas or weims. Also, a German name in a pedigree does not authenticate it is a GSP with no pointer in it. Anyone can name a dog anything they want.

Guys, we are all on the same page here. What was done in the past was done. Let's move forward from this point on. And that's the attitude the AKC should have as well.
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Crestonegsp » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:26 pm

The AKC did not creat this issue, the people who breed a litter and registered it with incorrect information, cause and effect.

I lived in KY for the past couple years and saw many a pointer run because they were the only horseback trials around. I saw Lester and the other big time pointer boys run dogs alot and I was impressed with many of them and other times not so much. It is like any breed there were some good and some not do good. Some good setters and some good red setters also.

I do not want to go back to what GSPs were years ago, I love them the way they are and I agree with JKP there is a big enough gene pool to keep the breed going and those who want to take a shortcut and cross breed (it's not only pointers) need to stop and play the game by the same rules as the rest of us. I don't know who breed Havoc and I don't care at this point, we need to move on, he is an accomplished dog. The AKC needs to pick a date and grandfather every dog in before that date and eliminate all "Q" registrations. Sounds like a simple solution that all might not be happy with but would eliminate any question and have a workable solution.
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by JKP » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:01 am

Only the breed club should make a decesion on cross breeding.
I agree but its not going to happen. Any discussion in the GSP, Britt, Setter clubs will quickly lead to the fact that there are plenty of dogs that have the performance....it would be a non-starter. The folks that slip a pointer in the back door are the same folks that will sell you the truck with the bondo...they're weasels...scum bags that will look you straight in the face and lie to you. That's really the problem...you may want to trust them but you can't...because if they'll lie to you once you have to wonder if anything else is true. These folks don't give a rat's butt about any breed....its all about them...and they'll sell you anything, do anything to make themselves important. They're lazy...rather than breed the registered dogs...they would rather just roll the dice and shortcut the process...then lie to you afterward. They lack honesty....I could respect someone who advertised "Bill's Gun Dogs" and left the breed blank...but not someone who will lie to me. Its comical how similar some FT fanatics are to the blue haired show matrons...they'll do anything to win...

What happened to the pride in a breed bred to do what was intended? Why are folks ashamed of a good 300yd GSP that gets after it in the swamp, tracks down wounded game big and small and then crashes calmly in the family room at night. Why do we all need to chase after the longtails? why does every breed have to act like, look like and be like a Pointer. When did the almighty field trial funnel all dogs into the same mold? Have we all become a bunch of sheep? 45lb white shorthairs with skinny legs, dish faces and bow legs aren't shorthairs...24" Britts are freaks and the many AF Setters I have seen could be Saluki crosses. Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining...I've been there before.

The real criminal here is the AKC.....because crossbreeding is legitimized after 3 generations...the AKC has effectively castrated the breed clubs/organizations...again!! .... and given the renegades status .... Always consider the character of the person first because without it the dog isn't worth bupkus.

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by ACooper » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:50 am

JKP wrote:
What happened to the pride in a breed bred to do what was intended? Why are folks ashamed of a good 300yd GSP that gets after it in the swamp, tracks down wounded game big and small and then crashes calmly in the family room at night. Why do we all need to chase after the longtails? why does every breed have to act like, look like and be like a Pointer. When did the almighty field trial funnel all dogs into the same mold? Have we all become a bunch of sheep? 45lb white shorthairs with skinny legs, dish faces and bow legs aren't shorthairs...24" Britts are freaks and the many AF Setters I have seen could be Saluki crosses. Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining...I've been there before.
I agree. The cross breeding has made a better FT dog, and was probably needed to be more competitive against all breeds in the FT game, BUT has it made a better dog overall? Further we have GSPs why do we need to be competitive against pointers?

I don't know if the breed is better as a whole, I am not old enough to remember the good old days. Further many dogs I have owned probably have/had a good shot of pointer in the mix. The line I have now I would guess has less but who really knows. What I can tell you is the GSP has changed in the last 15-20 years.

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by slistoe » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:13 am

ACooper wrote: Further we have GSPs why do we need to be competitive against pointers?
:?: You aren't.

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by bigoak » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:14 pm

Hey,I'll buy the three generation deal,but I want to be able to show my dog too.That would never happen, because the show people would never accept this and akc knows it.

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:36 pm

bigoak wrote:Hey,I'll buy the three generation deal,but I want to be able to show my dog too.That would never happen, because the show people would never accept this and akc knows it.
Well, from the looks of things on the GSPCA site, ee may be fixin' to find out what they will put up with.
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by JKP » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:13 am

100-120 years ago, we had sportsmen using many breeds in an effort to create a dog for many hunting tasks, the versatile concept. Here we are today listening to folks argue why we should break that all down and breed GSP as close as possible to the Pointer...in other words, undo what others did over decades. 50lb white GWP race 1/2 mile in front of the horse while folks spout the word "Drahthaar" and versatility. Years ago, founders put these breeds together to create a hunting dog....what's being talked about here is making a better go-cart for the track. 100 years ago, folks worked with each other, disclosed the breedings they did....today, folks sneak around in the back yard at night and then blow smoke up our tailpipes. Like my Daddy said....measure the person first....

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Joe Amatulli » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:44 am

Jkh, if you are happy with an 80/90 Lbs. dog that hunts with his nose on the ground, points every mouse in the field, is tripping over is tongue after 15 minutes, points like a wet rag, will not leave your feet, takes all day to retrieve a bird out of cold water, is more interested in chasing fur than pointing a bird, hey man there are plenty of what they call a poor man’s hunting dog out there. This will have no effect on you or your dog. If you want to go back to living in a cave, hunt to eat, and walk to everywhere you want to go, man, go for it, just don’t forget to turn off the computer before you leave. But some of us have moved into the modern age, but no one is telling you that you have to and don’t you dare tell me and others that we have to go back to ancient times.

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:02 am

AMEN JOE!!! :wink:

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by JKP » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:35 pm

Jkh, if you are happy with an 80/90 Lbs. dog that hunts with his nose on the ground, points every mouse in the field, is tripping over is tongue after 15 minutes, points like a wet rag, will not leave your feet, takes all day to retrieve a bird out of cold water, is more interested in chasing fur than pointing a bird, hey man there are plenty of what they call a poor man’s hunting dog out there. This will have no effect on you or your dog. If you want to go back to living in a cave, hunt to eat, and walk to everywhere you want to go, man, go for it, just don’t forget to turn off the computer before you leave. But some of us have moved into the modern age, but no one is telling you that you have to and don’t you dare tell me and others that we have to go back to ancient times.
Is that what all versatile dogs are like...its the kind of excuse I expected. If you believe that tripe, you need to get around more. Here's one of my bootlickers at 10X zoom in ND...not a trial dog but no slouch either.
Image
and on point...
Image

There are 10's of thousands of GSPs, Britts, Setters....and plenty with loads of talent....there just isn't any sound reason to sneak a longtail in the kennel besides personal glory. Heh,if you want to mix and match and then be honest...I got no problems with that...but run out and use the trial and breed club venues to legitimize a bogus pedigree doesn't wash...that's what scum bags do. If you cross breed, man up and say so..but that's not gonna happen. May as well put all the ball players on steroids, cork all the bats, move the mound closer and bring in the fence....what does it mean?? Its not as if we can't shoot 5 legal limits over a lot of these dogs anyway.

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:45 pm

Hey! I know that ND hunting spot in the bottom picture!

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by JKP » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:12 pm

Hey! I know that ND hunting spot in the bottom picture!
So you're the one that's been shooting out that covey of huns south of town!!!! :wink:

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:45 pm

JKP it's always the same with you guys that like to knock trials & the dogs that run in them.5 legal limits that all it's about well guess what a few friends & I have done just that here in Ohio more then once when I was younger & that's what was important.Now I have different priorities then how many birds I can kill.Bring your dog here to Ohio & do it once!!! :lol:

Oh another thing all you guys that fill pickup trucks with limits where to you do it at? ND,SD,where you don't even need a dog to find birds!!! :lol:

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Cajun Casey » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:33 pm

What bothers me is the GSPCA's objection to Q dogs participating in field trials because AKC "front end" titles show breeding worthiness. Kind of a dump on the hunt test and obedience folks, IMO.
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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:43 pm

Howie I don't disagree with what you are saying but it's not just a GSP thing it's been done across the board just maybe not as much.The GSPCA which includes the show people right now do they want to throw it all on the F trialers. How many dogs do you see in the show ring today that don't have Blazes on their face other then the S Lvrs when people start slining crap everyone starts to stink!! :) Do you think all your dogs & peds are clean?? If you don't want that in your dog then don't buy it or breed it.Very Simple.

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:59 pm

Howie you say the vast minority when in fact if you believe it has been done as much as alot seem to think I would say it would be the other way around.The majority has been doing it & the minority has been buying it.
I sure hope tha's not the case.
But here is is the show people breed show dogs with out caring about the rest.
The trial people trial dogs.
The NAVHDA people versatile dogs.
The hunting people hunting dogs etc & ect
It's not right to cheat & lie about it I agree 100% but it's been done now we need to stop it by DNA all breeding dogs.
But there will always be cheats & liars maybe we should DNA them!!!!

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by JKP » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:21 pm

JKP it's always the same with you guys that like to knock trials & the dogs that run in them.5 legal limits that all it's about well guess what a few friends & I have done just that here in Ohio more then once when I was younger & that's what was important.Now I have different priorities then how many birds I can kill.Bring your dog here to Ohio & do it once!!! :lol:

Oh another thing all you guys that fill pickup trucks with limits where to you do it at? ND,SD,where you don't even need a dog to find birds!!! :lol:
So what other venue would prompt folks to do some back of the barn cross breeding? I don't think the show people are gonna breed Pointers to improve the conformation for the show ring? or the NAVHDA guys to improve blind retrieves, duck searching and retrieving. Don't need to breed to a Pointer to run a hunt test.....dog gone right I'm pointing the finger at FT. I'll bet most wouldn't breed to a Pointer...but they just might use the offspring if they win. Years ago there was a GWP out west...a slick...that tore it up in FT...anyone looking at the dog could tell you a strange rooster got in the hen house...but he was a winner....and now he can be found in loads of pedigrees....

I don't shoot 5 limits....I mentioned it just to remind us what we breed dogs for...my trips to ND are for the young dogs....to see which make the grade...you can't make that decision on planted birds in hedgerows here in the east.

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:33 pm

Who said anything about planted birds but since you brought it up there are more wild birds in ND & SD then planted birds here in the east.Now you even admit that it's not just GSPS that have been cross bred & yes some of the FT GSPS have produced Bench CH including Rusty who now we all know was 1/2 pointer because some one said so.But won't give the full details on that pointer that would have to be a carrier of LD which pointers have never had.

The more info that come's forward the more quesions it brings up. :D
Just sayin!!

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:41 pm

That's my point Howie who really knows so lets come up with a plan to move forward.Can't change the past!! :D

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by JKP » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:18 pm

That's my point Howie who really knows so lets come up with a plan to move forward.Can't change the past!!
There you go....

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by solon » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:42 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Now you even admit that it's not just GSPS that have been cross bred & yes some of the FT GSPS have produced Bench CH including Rusty who now we all know was 1/2 pointer because some one said so.But won't give the full details on that pointer that would have to be a carrier of LD which pointers have never had.

The more info that come's forward the more quesions it brings up. :D
Just sayin!!
I read elsewhere that Bodo Winterhelt made a cross breeding of his Pudelpointers with a pointer and the writer even named the pointer. Of course Pudelpointers don't have the handicap of being an AKC recognized breed! :)

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Re: Conditional Registration is an AKC thing Only

Post by JKP » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:22 am

I read elsewhere that Bodo Winterhelt made a cross breeding of his Pudelpointers with a pointer and the writer even named the pointer. Of course Pudelpointers don't have the handicap of being an AKC recognized breed!
Bodo always was someone who knew better than everyone else....you find a lot of those in dogs. :wink:

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